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1 00:00:12,552 00:00:15,319 'The novelist Aldous Huxley once wrote 'The novelist Aldous Huxley once wrote
2 00:00:15,320 00:00:17,629 'that most human beings behave as though 'that most human beings behave as though
3 00:00:17,638 00:00:21,750 'death were no more than an unfounded rumour. 'death were no more than an unfounded rumour.
4 00:00:25,476 00:00:30,150 'But what happens when you realise the rumour is true?' 'But what happens when you realise the rumour is true?'
5 00:00:31,743 00:00:33,410 'Let's face it, none of us, 'Let's face it, none of us,
6 00:00:33,419 00:00:36,840 'until it hits us in the face, think we're going to die. 'until it hits us in the face, think we're going to die.
7 00:00:36,920 00:00:39,743 'I can still sort of picture the consultant's room. 'I can still sort of picture the consultant's room.
8 00:00:39,781 00:00:42,467 'He said, "Well, I've got some bad news for you. 'He said, "Well, I've got some bad news for you.
9 00:00:42,486 00:00:45,880 '"We think you've got motor neurone disease."' '"We think you've got motor neurone disease."'
10 00:00:46,130 00:00:50,000 'As we film this, Richard Chell has only months to live. 'As we film this, Richard Chell has only months to live.
11 00:00:50,640 00:00:53,359 'His comfort lies in his religious faith. 'His comfort lies in his religious faith.
12 00:00:53,360 00:00:57,360 'For him, death is not the end.' 'For him, death is not the end.'
13 00:00:57,690 00:00:59,936 Death, to me, the actual process of dying, Death, to me, the actual process of dying,
14 00:01:00,056 00:01:01,538 is not something I'm scared of... is not something I'm scared of...
15 00:01:01,561 00:01:03,800 it's going through a door into another room. it's going through a door into another room.
16 00:01:03,920 00:01:05,199 What do you mean by that? What do you mean by that?
17 00:01:05,200 00:01:07,910 I'm a Christian and therefore I do believe in a life after death. I'm a Christian and therefore I do believe in a life after death.
18 00:01:08,426 00:01:12,240 I do believe that this life is just part of a process, I do believe that this life is just part of a process,
19 00:01:12,360 00:01:14,437 and that there's another part of that process to complete. and that there's another part of that process to complete.
20 00:01:14,871 00:01:18,559 I know very well your feelings about on religion and the rest of it. I know very well your feelings about on religion and the rest of it.
21 00:01:18,560 00:01:20,279 But I would say But I would say
22 00:01:20,280 00:01:22,719 having a view that is finite having a view that is finite
23 00:01:22,720 00:01:25,017 is a bit like having half a meal. is a bit like having half a meal.
24 00:01:25,760 00:01:27,653 It will leave you hungry at the end of the day. It will leave you hungry at the end of the day.
25 00:01:27,920 00:01:29,999 But, of course, the existence of hunger But, of course, the existence of hunger
26 00:01:30,000 00:01:32,200 doesn't mean that there's food. doesn't mean that there's food.
27 00:01:32,450 00:01:34,353 No, but it means that there's a need. No, but it means that there's a need.
28 00:01:34,361 00:01:36,839 And I would argue that there is a food. And I would argue that there is a food.
29 00:01:36,840 00:01:39,120 If you faced a situation where, If you faced a situation where,
30 00:01:39,437 00:01:41,159 like myself, say, you were suddenly saying, like myself, say, you were suddenly saying,
31 00:01:41,160 00:01:44,796 "Well, look. Death is fairly close and you're going to die." "Well, look. Death is fairly close and you're going to die."
32 00:01:45,120 00:01:48,039 Do you think you would feel any differently? Do you think you would feel any differently?
33 00:01:48,545 00:01:51,528 Or are you clear in your own mind, if that was the situation, Or are you clear in your own mind, if that was the situation,
34 00:01:51,855 00:01:54,390 "I know exactly how I'd respond and exactly how I'd feel"? "I know exactly how I'd respond and exactly how I'd feel"?
35 00:01:59,032 00:02:00,769 'It is a fair question. 'It is a fair question.
36 00:02:01,119 00:02:04,670 'I follow reason and I don't believe in God. 'I follow reason and I don't believe in God.
37 00:02:06,133 00:02:09,680 'But this series is not about whether God exists or not. 'But this series is not about whether God exists or not.
38 00:02:10,400 00:02:12,840 'It's about a more difficult problem - 'It's about a more difficult problem -
39 00:02:13,686 00:02:16,960 'what, if anything, can take God's place? 'what, if anything, can take God's place?
40 00:02:18,661 00:02:21,518 'Religion has shaped our understanding of life 'Religion has shaped our understanding of life
41 00:02:21,533 00:02:23,710 'for thousands of years. 'for thousands of years.
42 00:02:24,720 00:02:26,880 'Ideas of the soul, 'Ideas of the soul,
43 00:02:28,105 00:02:29,881 'sin, 'sin,
44 00:02:30,849 00:02:33,639 'and the afterlife are hard to shake off, 'and the afterlife are hard to shake off,
45 00:02:33,640 00:02:36,310 'even for non-religious people like me. 'even for non-religious people like me.
46 00:02:37,760 00:02:40,763 'As more and more of us realise there is no God, 'As more and more of us realise there is no God,
47 00:02:40,816 00:02:44,790 'what happens as we leave religion behind?' 'what happens as we leave religion behind?'
48 00:02:46,146 00:02:48,720 I have to believe there's a plan, I have to believe there's a plan,
49 00:02:48,840 00:02:51,639 and that God is going to accomplish something through this. and that God is going to accomplish something through this.
50 00:02:51,770 00:02:54,599 I suppose Jesus is an unpaid babysitter. I suppose Jesus is an unpaid babysitter.
51 00:02:54,600 00:02:56,919 It's like, "If I'm not watching you, Jesus is." It's like, "If I'm not watching you, Jesus is."
52 00:02:57,457 00:03:00,920 So do you think that we, in the West, are too materialistic? So do you think that we, in the West, are too materialistic?
53 00:03:01,210 00:03:02,005 I think so. I think so.
54 00:03:03,480 00:03:05,520 'In this film, Death, 'In this film, Death,
55 00:03:06,658 00:03:09,399 'religion has traditionally been thought to bring comfort 'religion has traditionally been thought to bring comfort
56 00:03:09,519 00:03:11,191 'at the end of life. 'at the end of life.
57 00:03:12,170 00:03:14,430 'But does it really? 'But does it really?
58 00:03:16,174 00:03:19,950 'What can science and reason tell us?' 'What can science and reason tell us?'
59 00:03:22,068 00:03:25,590 How does someone like me, who has no religion, face death? How does someone like me, who has no religion, face death?
60 00:03:49,918 00:03:52,680 'Varanasi, India - 'Varanasi, India -
61 00:03:52,930 00:03:55,910 'one of the oldest cities in the world. 'one of the oldest cities in the world.
62 00:03:59,261 00:04:02,760 'It has a macabre speciality. 'It has a macabre speciality.
63 00:04:03,280 00:04:06,138 'Its main business is the industry of death. 'Its main business is the industry of death.
64 00:04:12,736 00:04:16,321 'Every year, a million Hindu pilgrims visit Varanasi, 'Every year, a million Hindu pilgrims visit Varanasi,
65 00:04:16,322 00:04:18,798 'dragging with them some 40,000 corpses 'dragging with them some 40,000 corpses
66 00:04:19,403 00:04:22,840 'to be cremated on the banks of the Ganges.' 'to be cremated on the banks of the Ganges.'
67 00:04:29,543 00:04:33,262 This the holiest place in the whole of Hinduism. This the holiest place in the whole of Hinduism.
68 00:04:33,382 00:04:37,333 This is the place where Hindus aspire to come to die, This is the place where Hindus aspire to come to die,
69 00:04:37,560 00:04:41,560 to escape from the cycle of birth and death and rebirth. to escape from the cycle of birth and death and rebirth.
70 00:04:42,208 00:04:43,770 It is the most amazing scene. It is the most amazing scene.
71 00:04:43,785 00:04:47,662 It's probably been going on like this for centuries, even millennia. It's probably been going on like this for centuries, even millennia.
72 00:04:48,705 00:04:51,070 It looks as though there are ashes down here It looks as though there are ashes down here
73 00:04:51,517 00:04:53,870 in the river, swirling around. in the river, swirling around.
74 00:05:04,027 00:05:07,159 'As an atheist for whom death is a full stop, 'As an atheist for whom death is a full stop,
75 00:05:07,160 00:05:10,919 'I suppose I shouldn't feel sentimental about the carcasses. 'I suppose I shouldn't feel sentimental about the carcasses.
76 00:05:11,039 00:05:14,350 'They are ex-people who have ceased to be. 'They are ex-people who have ceased to be.
77 00:05:24,560 00:05:28,334 'Yet I find something a little bit shocking here. 'Yet I find something a little bit shocking here.
78 00:05:28,568 00:05:30,707 'The partially-burnt corpses... 'The partially-burnt corpses...
79 00:05:33,160 00:05:35,004 '..the locals casually searching '..the locals casually searching
80 00:05:35,027 00:05:38,480 'for precious metals in the burnt remains... 'for precious metals in the burnt remains...
81 00:05:41,359 00:05:44,640 '..and the rejected dead.' '..and the rejected dead.'
82 00:05:48,706 00:05:51,706 Although this is clearly steeped in religion, Although this is clearly steeped in religion,
83 00:05:52,003 00:05:56,710 there's a surprising lack of evident reverence or solemnity. there's a surprising lack of evident reverence or solemnity.
84 00:05:57,214 00:05:59,744 The people standing around the funeral pyres The people standing around the funeral pyres
85 00:05:59,759 00:06:03,630 are doing the job of work in a pretty matter-of-fact way. are doing the job of work in a pretty matter-of-fact way.
86 00:06:05,933 00:06:10,000 'But there is a kind of logic behind the apparent lack of reverence. 'But there is a kind of logic behind the apparent lack of reverence.
87 00:06:12,761 00:06:17,040 'In this religious tradition, the flesh is no longer important. 'In this religious tradition, the flesh is no longer important.
88 00:06:17,290 00:06:21,578 'What matters here is releasing the spirit or soul. 'What matters here is releasing the spirit or soul.
89 00:06:25,350 00:06:28,640 'This is where religion plays its strongest card. 'This is where religion plays its strongest card.
90 00:06:28,760 00:06:32,760 'The body may not live for ever but the soul does. 'The body may not live for ever but the soul does.
91 00:06:35,280 00:06:38,172 'On the face of it, it's a comforting idea. 'On the face of it, it's a comforting idea.
92 00:06:38,497 00:06:41,342 'And a challenge for an atheist like me. 'And a challenge for an atheist like me.
93 00:06:53,003 00:06:56,112 'If you want to hear the challenge starkly expressed, 'If you want to hear the challenge starkly expressed,
94 00:06:56,320 00:07:00,320 'you can go to a place like this in Kansas City.' 'you can go to a place like this in Kansas City.'
95 00:07:02,712 00:07:04,592 Hello, I'm Richard. Hello, I'm Richard.
96 00:07:06,120 00:07:09,399 'This Catholic hospice, Alexandra's House, 'This Catholic hospice, Alexandra's House,
97 00:07:09,400 00:07:13,400 'is for babies who die within hours of birth.' 'is for babies who die within hours of birth.'
98 00:07:14,200 00:07:16,289 These are clearly fatal disorders. These are clearly fatal disorders.
99 00:07:16,317 00:07:18,519 Babies perhaps with anencephaly, Babies perhaps with anencephaly,
100 00:07:18,520 00:07:21,639 Potter's Syndrome, where they have no kidneys, Potter's Syndrome, where they have no kidneys,
101 00:07:21,640 00:07:23,890 severe genetic heart disease. severe genetic heart disease.
102 00:07:24,010 00:07:25,479 So, they're all going to die. So, they're all going to die.
103 00:07:25,480 00:07:26,659 They're all going to die. They're all going to die.
104 00:07:26,660 00:07:28,959 And so, the normal recommendation by the medical profession And so, the normal recommendation by the medical profession
105 00:07:28,960 00:07:31,319 - ..would be probably be an abortion at that point, would it? - Yes. - ..would be probably be an abortion at that point, would it? - Yes.
106 00:07:32,960 00:07:36,320 This may, you know, be hard for some people to see. This may, you know, be hard for some people to see.
107 00:07:36,570 00:07:39,039 These are many of our babies for whom we've cared, These are many of our babies for whom we've cared,
108 00:07:39,040 00:07:42,279 some who have lived here, but all of them that we've cared for. some who have lived here, but all of them that we've cared for.
109 00:07:42,280 00:07:46,280 And so this is leading us up to where the families stay. And so this is leading us up to where the families stay.
110 00:07:48,320 00:07:49,919 This is where the parents stay. This is where the parents stay.
111 00:07:49,920 00:07:52,319 'Over the last 11 years, Patti Lewis 'Over the last 11 years, Patti Lewis
112 00:07:52,548 00:07:56,039 'has helped the families of over 500 babies 'has helped the families of over 500 babies
113 00:07:56,159 00:07:59,080 'who have died within these walls.' 'who have died within these walls.'
114 00:07:59,475 00:08:02,720 Do you think their mothers are ever going to meet their babies again? Do you think their mothers are ever going to meet their babies again?
115 00:08:02,840 00:08:04,199 Yes. Yes.
116 00:08:04,538 00:08:05,879 I think the mothers believe that, too, I think the mothers believe that, too,
117 00:08:05,880 00:08:09,880 and the fathers and the siblings. and the fathers and the siblings.
118 00:08:13,880 00:08:16,519 'I do sympathise with the desire to meet again 'I do sympathise with the desire to meet again
119 00:08:16,520 00:08:18,799 'somebody whom you've known and loved. 'somebody whom you've known and loved.
120 00:08:18,919 00:08:20,519 'But a newborn baby? 'But a newborn baby?
121 00:08:21,468 00:08:23,799 'I feel very sorry for these parents, 'I feel very sorry for these parents,
122 00:08:23,800 00:08:26,199 'but still, reality may be raw. 'but still, reality may be raw.
123 00:08:26,200 00:08:28,656 'But we have to face it. 'But we have to face it.
124 00:08:30,120 00:08:32,390 The baby was born on Saturday, The baby was born on Saturday,
125 00:08:33,091 00:08:34,448 7/9/11. 7/9/11.
126 00:08:34,610 00:08:36,319 Which was yesterday. Which was yesterday.
127 00:08:36,320 00:08:37,230 Yeah. Yeah.
128 00:08:39,080 00:08:40,999 And she came into the world at 6pm And she came into the world at 6pm
129 00:08:41,000 00:08:42,959 and she lived 30 minutes. and she lived 30 minutes.
130 00:08:42,960 00:08:46,960 And those 30 minutes seemed so short and so precious. And those 30 minutes seemed so short and so precious.
131 00:08:48,280 00:08:50,870 We held her and loved her and... We held her and loved her and...
132 00:08:51,520 00:08:55,520 got to give her a little bath and put her in her christening outfit. got to give her a little bath and put her in her christening outfit.
133 00:08:56,080 00:08:57,920 We baptised her. We baptised her.
134 00:08:58,480 00:09:02,229 The family was there with us, and it was a very... The family was there with us, and it was a very...
135 00:09:02,670 00:09:04,050 precious time. precious time.
136 00:09:04,667 00:09:07,093 Can you talk us through when you first found out Can you talk us through when you first found out
137 00:09:07,213 00:09:10,810 that there was a problem with the baby? that there was a problem with the baby?
138 00:09:11,434 00:09:15,855 We found out in January that we were expecting and it would be our third. We found out in January that we were expecting and it would be our third.
139 00:09:16,114 00:09:18,439 And we were overjoyed. And we go in for our ultrasound And we were overjoyed. And we go in for our ultrasound
140 00:09:18,440 00:09:20,455 and find out if it was a boy or girl. and find out if it was a boy or girl.
141 00:09:20,880 00:09:22,845 She did the scan and told us there was no kidneys. She did the scan and told us there was no kidneys.
142 00:09:22,860 00:09:24,215 No kidneys? Right. No kidneys? Right.
143 00:09:24,505 00:09:27,920 That was the first time that we had heard that diagnosis. That was the first time that we had heard that diagnosis.
144 00:09:28,040 00:09:30,999 And she called it a "lethal pregnancy". And she called it a "lethal pregnancy".
145 00:09:31,119 00:09:33,759 So, that's when you sort of went into shock, is it? So, that's when you sort of went into shock, is it?
146 00:09:33,760 00:09:35,159 More so, yes. More so, yes.
147 00:09:35,160 00:09:39,310 Did it occur to you that the total sum of suffering would be Did it occur to you that the total sum of suffering would be
148 00:09:39,674 00:09:43,609 much less if you drew a line under it then and restarted you life? much less if you drew a line under it then and restarted you life?
149 00:09:43,650 00:09:45,951 You've got to restart your life now. You've got to restart your life now.
150 00:09:46,680 00:09:50,680 Why did you decide to go on for the remaining months? Why did you decide to go on for the remaining months?
151 00:09:51,440 00:09:55,440 Well, there's hope in everything and God can do great things. Well, there's hope in everything and God can do great things.
152 00:09:55,452 00:09:57,486 So, you were hoping for a miracle? So, you were hoping for a miracle?
153 00:09:57,517 00:09:59,479 Hoping for a miracle, but if it wasn't, Hoping for a miracle, but if it wasn't,
154 00:09:59,480 00:10:02,799 it was still going to be precious and it's a baby and it's a life. it was still going to be precious and it's a baby and it's a life.
155 00:10:02,800 00:10:06,800 It's not my decision to terminate that. It's not my choice. It's not my decision to terminate that. It's not my choice.
156 00:10:08,124 00:10:12,337 I carried it and loved it and can feel it move every single day and... I carried it and loved it and can feel it move every single day and...
157 00:10:13,040 00:10:17,040 And also the 30 minutes or so that we got to spend with her was worth, And also the 30 minutes or so that we got to spend with her was worth,
158 00:10:17,280 00:10:21,119 I didn't have any of the pain, but I would say it was worth I didn't have any of the pain, but I would say it was worth
159 00:10:21,120 00:10:24,919 all of the trial of getting to where we were. all of the trial of getting to where we were.
160 00:10:25,170 00:10:27,315 And not only did we get to spend 30 minutes with her And not only did we get to spend 30 minutes with her
161 00:10:27,435 00:10:29,879 we got to be with her for, like, 12 hours, we got to be with her for, like, 12 hours,
162 00:10:29,999 00:10:33,880 she wasn't with us spiritually, but we got to hold her. she wasn't with us spiritually, but we got to hold her.
163 00:10:34,132 00:10:35,799 And you took photographs? And you took photographs?
164 00:10:35,800 00:10:37,719 Oh, yes. Oh, yes.
165 00:10:37,839 00:10:40,159 We have one that we have printed off. We have one that we have printed off.
166 00:10:41,148 00:10:43,119 She was beautiful, she was perfect and everything... She was beautiful, she was perfect and everything...
167 00:10:43,120 00:10:46,079 She looked just like her mom even down to her fingernails. She looked just like her mom even down to her fingernails.
168 00:10:46,199 00:10:47,788 Yes, beautiful. Yes, beautiful.
169 00:10:48,879 00:10:51,319 I wouldn't have changed it for anything. I wouldn't have changed it for anything.
170 00:10:51,439 00:10:53,959 Do you think you will ever meet the baby? Do you think you will ever meet the baby?
171 00:10:54,079 00:10:55,829 Oh, of course!... Oh, of course!...
172 00:10:56,858 00:10:58,130 .. there is great hope in that. .. there is great hope in that.
173 00:10:58,138 00:11:01,390 We will meet the baby, it's in heaven with God. We will meet the baby, it's in heaven with God.
174 00:11:08,640 00:11:11,079 'I feel for Runae and Lee. 'I feel for Runae and Lee.
175 00:11:11,439 00:11:13,879 'They sincerely think they are gaining reassurance 'They sincerely think they are gaining reassurance
176 00:11:13,880 00:11:15,560 'from their faith. 'from their faith.
177 00:11:21,135 00:11:24,388 'So now, I need to understand how this relationship 'So now, I need to understand how this relationship
178 00:11:24,403 00:11:28,590 between death and religion has evolved to be so strong. between death and religion has evolved to be so strong.
179 00:11:44,113 00:11:46,247 Religion denies death is real. Religion denies death is real.
180 00:11:47,420 00:11:50,787 It sets up, instead, the forbidding prospect of eternity It sets up, instead, the forbidding prospect of eternity
181 00:11:51,098 00:11:53,149 either in heaven, or worse, in hell. either in heaven, or worse, in hell.
182 00:11:54,538 00:11:58,257 For me, what's frightening is not death itself but eternity, For me, what's frightening is not death itself but eternity,
183 00:11:58,453 00:12:00,067 whether you're there or not. whether you're there or not.
184 00:12:00,524 00:12:04,554 Yet people still reach instinctively for religion and its rituals Yet people still reach instinctively for religion and its rituals
185 00:12:04,592 00:12:06,316 when it comes to the end. when it comes to the end.
186 00:12:06,436 00:12:07,463 Why? Why?
187 00:12:10,861 00:12:13,387 It's a very, very artificial situation. It's a very, very artificial situation.
188 00:12:13,507 00:12:15,936 We see the person lying down. We see the person lying down.
189 00:12:16,454 00:12:18,579 Unless you're intimately acquainted with someone, Unless you're intimately acquainted with someone,
190 00:12:18,593 00:12:20,825 you don't really see them lying down you don't really see them lying down
191 00:12:20,848 00:12:23,027 and they may well be dressed in their own clothes and they may well be dressed in their own clothes
192 00:12:23,028 00:12:25,286 lying down with their eyes closed lying down with their eyes closed
193 00:12:25,310 00:12:28,987 in an artificial situation that they're inside a wooden box. in an artificial situation that they're inside a wooden box.
194 00:12:28,988 00:12:32,661 Now, all of these things bring a surrealism, Now, all of these things bring a surrealism,
195 00:12:32,781 00:12:36,423 but despite that, people are very, very focused but despite that, people are very, very focused
196 00:12:36,543 00:12:41,126 on the fact that the last physical connection they have with that person on the fact that the last physical connection they have with that person
197 00:12:41,246 00:12:44,560 is lying in that coffin, and that's what they're saying farewell to. is lying in that coffin, and that's what they're saying farewell to.
198 00:12:47,196 00:12:51,739 So why do people go on with these strange rituals? So why do people go on with these strange rituals?
199 00:12:53,323 00:12:58,010 It's the business of walking away from the funeral and feeling, It's the business of walking away from the funeral and feeling,
200 00:12:58,130 00:13:01,949 "That was well done, we liked what they've done for us "That was well done, we liked what they've done for us
201 00:13:02,069 00:13:06,383 "and we feel that we laid someone we cared about very deeply to rest "and we feel that we laid someone we cared about very deeply to rest
202 00:13:06,503 00:13:08,867 "in a very dignified and meaningful way." "in a very dignified and meaningful way."
203 00:13:08,868 00:13:13,467 And even if the beautiful oak coffin is then burned or buried, And even if the beautiful oak coffin is then burned or buried,
204 00:13:13,587 00:13:16,587 somehow you feel you've given the person a good send-off. somehow you feel you've given the person a good send-off.
205 00:13:16,707 00:13:18,052 Very much so. Very much so.
206 00:13:24,909 00:13:27,904 More and more of us have no faith in God More and more of us have no faith in God
207 00:13:27,950 00:13:30,693 but we cling to the rituals. but we cling to the rituals.
208 00:13:31,965 00:13:34,998 Even in secular woodland burial sites, Even in secular woodland burial sites,
209 00:13:35,188 00:13:39,188 we find death brings illogical superstition. we find death brings illogical superstition.
210 00:13:41,020 00:13:43,709 It is fascinating to see people... It is fascinating to see people...
211 00:13:43,829 00:13:46,874 thinking of themselves as part of this place. thinking of themselves as part of this place.
212 00:13:47,125 00:13:50,267 They're anticipating their postmortem identity. They're anticipating their postmortem identity.
213 00:13:50,615 00:13:52,702 So that when people talk about, So that when people talk about,
214 00:13:52,749 00:13:55,424 as they can in this place, facing any direction, as they can in this place, facing any direction,
215 00:13:55,544 00:13:57,827 so some want to look up the hill, some want to look down the hill, so some want to look up the hill, some want to look down the hill,
216 00:13:58,226 00:14:00,054 some want to look towards the sun, some want to look towards the sun,
217 00:14:00,070 00:14:03,183 they are buried in different spatial directions. they are buried in different spatial directions.
218 00:14:04,263 00:14:06,884 'Douglas Davies is an anthropologist 'Douglas Davies is an anthropologist
219 00:14:06,892 00:14:10,228 'fascinated by the fuss and trappings surrounding death.' 'fascinated by the fuss and trappings surrounding death.'
220 00:14:11,291 00:14:12,921 Do you think a part of what's going on Do you think a part of what's going on
221 00:14:12,929 00:14:16,010 is a reluctance to believe that the dead person is really dead? is a reluctance to believe that the dead person is really dead?
222 00:14:16,039 00:14:19,978 Yes. One lady, her father used to farm around here. Yes. One lady, her father used to farm around here.
223 00:14:20,367 00:14:23,648 And so he's been buried looking up towards the hill, And so he's been buried looking up towards the hill,
224 00:14:24,113 00:14:26,510 cos he used to shoot rabbits up there and the like, cos he used to shoot rabbits up there and the like,
225 00:14:26,630 00:14:29,585 and to her, this is dreadfully important because... and to her, this is dreadfully important because...
226 00:14:29,705 00:14:33,471 the relatives, too, are thinking about their dead after they've died. the relatives, too, are thinking about their dead after they've died.
227 00:14:33,487 00:14:34,280 Yes. Yes.
228 00:14:35,348 00:14:38,950 'I find I'm not immune to these notions.' 'I find I'm not immune to these notions.'
229 00:14:39,308 00:14:43,721 There's a place in Cornwall where my mother's family come from There's a place in Cornwall where my mother's family come from
230 00:14:43,841 00:14:47,546 and where we used to spend childhood holidays called Dollar Cove. and where we used to spend childhood holidays called Dollar Cove.
231 00:14:47,666 00:14:50,942 And I think I'm right in saying there's a little tiny church And I think I'm right in saying there's a little tiny church
232 00:14:51,849 00:14:55,057 more or less on the beach, more or less built in the sand, more or less on the beach, more or less built in the sand,
233 00:14:55,177 00:14:57,747 and I've sometimes fantasised about being buried there and I've sometimes fantasised about being buried there
234 00:14:57,748 00:15:00,987 somehow with the sea crashing in and the tide coming in and out. somehow with the sea crashing in and the tide coming in and out.
235 00:15:01,107 00:15:04,468 What is the allure that would be there for you What is the allure that would be there for you
236 00:15:04,484 00:15:05,896 in a location for your body? in a location for your body?
237 00:15:05,911 00:15:08,936 Yeah. It's totally illogical. It's pure sentimentality. Yeah. It's totally illogical. It's pure sentimentality.
238 00:15:09,743 00:15:13,400 I suppose there's no rational defence for it whatever. I suppose there's no rational defence for it whatever.
239 00:15:13,439 00:15:14,525 One should say, One should say,
240 00:15:14,548 00:15:17,459 "Just stick me in a dustbin bag and throw me away." "Just stick me in a dustbin bag and throw me away."
241 00:15:17,482 00:15:18,679 But you don't want to be in a dustbin bag? But you don't want to be in a dustbin bag?
242 00:15:18,687 00:15:20,866 No, that's right, and it is pure sentiment. No, that's right, and it is pure sentiment.
243 00:15:20,881 00:15:22,661 I mean, we are sentimental animals... I mean, we are sentimental animals...
244 00:15:22,669 00:15:23,857 Yes, absolutely. Yes, absolutely.
245 00:15:23,873 00:15:25,783 ..as well as social animals. ..as well as social animals.
246 00:15:28,740 00:15:31,113 So why do even atheists like me So why do even atheists like me
247 00:15:31,144 00:15:33,952 carry around this sentimental baggage? carry around this sentimental baggage?
248 00:15:38,546 00:15:42,383 When did these illogical thoughts first develop? When did these illogical thoughts first develop?
249 00:15:47,596 00:15:50,072 As a child, I don't think I worried about As a child, I don't think I worried about
250 00:15:50,117 00:15:51,527 God looking down at me God looking down at me
251 00:15:51,542 00:15:52,981 and seeing what I was doing. and seeing what I was doing.
252 00:15:53,012 00:15:54,223 I worried about ancestors. I worried about ancestors.
253 00:15:54,236 00:15:56,987 I worried about my great uncles and great aunts I worried about my great uncles and great aunts
254 00:15:56,988 00:16:00,988 looking down from heaven and seeing everything that I did. looking down from heaven and seeing everything that I did.
255 00:16:01,594 00:16:05,876 Childish, perhaps, but don't let's be too quick to dismiss it. Childish, perhaps, but don't let's be too quick to dismiss it.
256 00:16:06,948 00:16:08,347 Hello, Iggy. Whoops. Hello, Iggy. Whoops.
257 00:16:08,348 00:16:09,347 CHILD LAUGHS CHILD LAUGHS
258 00:16:09,467 00:16:11,147 He doesn't want to come out and play. He doesn't want to come out and play.
259 00:16:11,538 00:16:13,387 (OK, OK, there we go...) (OK, OK, there we go...)
260 00:16:13,507 00:16:15,722 From an early age, we start to believe From an early age, we start to believe
261 00:16:15,883 00:16:18,800 that there's more to us than just our physical bodies, that there's more to us than just our physical bodies,
262 00:16:19,908 00:16:22,070 as this experiment reveals. as this experiment reveals.
263 00:16:22,435 00:16:24,507 Shall we give him a little tickle? Shall we give him a little tickle?
264 00:16:24,905 00:16:27,070 He's very sweet, isn't he? He's very sweet, isn't he?
265 00:16:27,618 00:16:29,461 This is a fake machine This is a fake machine
266 00:16:29,926 00:16:33,433 to fool children into thinking live beings can be duplicated. to fool children into thinking live beings can be duplicated.
267 00:16:33,553 00:16:34,743 MACHINE BUZZES MACHINE BUZZES
268 00:16:36,673 00:16:37,960 There's Iggy. There's Iggy.
269 00:16:40,588 00:16:42,103 And there's Iggy. And there's Iggy.
270 00:16:43,964 00:16:46,507 As scientists, we seem to be committed to the view As scientists, we seem to be committed to the view
271 00:16:46,508 00:16:49,787 that if you could take a person and make an exact copy, that if you could take a person and make an exact copy,
272 00:16:49,788 00:16:51,547 molecule by molecule, molecule by molecule,
273 00:16:51,882 00:16:55,522 that copy would have exactly the same thoughts and memories, that copy would have exactly the same thoughts and memories,
274 00:16:55,575 00:16:57,891 would be the same person. would be the same person.
275 00:16:58,196 00:17:00,450 But intuition rebels. But intuition rebels.
276 00:17:00,570 00:17:04,425 We seem to want to believe that there's some essence of ourselves, We seem to want to believe that there's some essence of ourselves,
277 00:17:04,441 00:17:08,252 something that would not go across with all those molecules, something that would not go across with all those molecules,
278 00:17:08,290 00:17:12,549 something that a religious person might want to call a soul. something that a religious person might want to call a soul.
279 00:17:16,022 00:17:19,885 This is an attempt to look at an old philosophical problem, This is an attempt to look at an old philosophical problem,
280 00:17:19,907 00:17:22,507 which is, imagine if you could copy anything, which is, imagine if you could copy anything,
281 00:17:22,955 00:17:26,618 and in these experiments, rather than getting children to imagine it, and in these experiments, rather than getting children to imagine it,
282 00:17:27,508 00:17:28,747 we produce a machine we produce a machine
283 00:17:28,867 00:17:31,903 which looks as if it can duplicate and copy anything, which looks as if it can duplicate and copy anything,
284 00:17:32,515 00:17:35,063 a bit like a photocopier for objects. a bit like a photocopier for objects.
285 00:17:36,708 00:17:38,147 Now there's two. Now there's two.
286 00:17:38,148 00:17:39,947 It made two. It made two.
287 00:17:39,948 00:17:41,227 It made two. It made two.
288 00:17:41,347 00:17:44,347 We've shown in previous studies they can believe it can copy toys We've shown in previous studies they can believe it can copy toys
289 00:17:44,362 00:17:47,987 very easily, but the question is, would they really extend that very easily, but the question is, would they really extend that
290 00:17:47,988 00:17:50,307 to something like a living thing, like a hamster? to something like a living thing, like a hamster?
291 00:17:50,758 00:17:54,539 Shall we tell him your name? Do you want to whisper? Shall we tell him your name? Do you want to whisper?
292 00:17:54,760 00:17:57,827 And so what copies over is the body of the hamster, And so what copies over is the body of the hamster,
293 00:17:57,828 00:18:00,627 the ideas of a hamster, the memories of the hamster? the ideas of a hamster, the memories of the hamster?
294 00:18:01,138 00:18:04,628 We believe the intuition is that the physical object can be copied, We believe the intuition is that the physical object can be copied,
295 00:18:04,748 00:18:06,987 and therefore the physical body can be copied, and therefore the physical body can be copied,
296 00:18:06,988 00:18:10,107 but we're not so sure that children think the mind can be copied. but we're not so sure that children think the mind can be copied.
297 00:18:10,108 00:18:12,875 Just like adults, they have this sense that maybe the mind Just like adults, they have this sense that maybe the mind
298 00:18:12,876 00:18:14,316 is different to the physical body. is different to the physical body.
299 00:18:14,331 00:18:17,942 The reason this is so interesting is because if you believe the mind The reason this is so interesting is because if you believe the mind
300 00:18:17,950 00:18:19,855 is separate to the physical body, is separate to the physical body,
301 00:18:19,975 00:18:21,680 then it means if the body goes, then it means if the body goes,
302 00:18:21,800 00:18:24,187 then maybe the mind can stay on and exist. then maybe the mind can stay on and exist.
303 00:18:24,188 00:18:28,676 And this allows for all sorts of notions of spirits and the soul, And this allows for all sorts of notions of spirits and the soul,
304 00:18:28,689 00:18:32,019 as being something entirely untethered to the physical world. as being something entirely untethered to the physical world.
305 00:18:32,041 00:18:34,547 Yes, disembodied ghosts after death Yes, disembodied ghosts after death
306 00:18:34,548 00:18:38,223 or surviving death in other ways, the soul goes on. or surviving death in other ways, the soul goes on.
307 00:18:39,908 00:18:44,325 So these young children believe bodies can be copied but not minds. So these young children believe bodies can be copied but not minds.
308 00:18:44,356 00:18:45,988 Shall we have a look? Shall we have a look?
309 00:18:46,108 00:18:47,048 One... One...
310 00:18:48,788 00:18:50,267 Two. Two. Two. Two.
311 00:18:51,193 00:18:53,380 They are already thinking there's something They are already thinking there's something
312 00:18:53,628 00:18:56,130 in charge of each being that is unique. in charge of each being that is unique.
313 00:18:56,250 00:18:58,571 Something like a soul? Something like a soul?
314 00:18:59,752 00:19:01,547 Did this hamster see your picture? Did this hamster see your picture?
315 00:19:01,548 00:19:02,507 (Yes.) (Yes.)
316 00:19:02,508 00:19:04,147 (Yes.) Does it know what your picture is? (Yes.) Does it know what your picture is?
317 00:19:04,267 00:19:05,548 (No.) (No.)
318 00:19:05,803 00:19:09,388 Does this hamster know your name? Does this hamster know your name?
319 00:19:09,699 00:19:11,597 Does this hamster know your name? Does this hamster know your name?
320 00:19:11,717 00:19:13,028 (No.) (No.)
321 00:19:13,928 00:19:16,589 Evolutionary psychology suggests Evolutionary psychology suggests
322 00:19:16,612 00:19:20,107 that we have evolved a sense of separate mind or soul that we have evolved a sense of separate mind or soul
323 00:19:20,581 00:19:23,042 because it's useful to us. because it's useful to us.
324 00:19:24,143 00:19:26,520 Because the experience of being in control of your body Because the experience of being in control of your body
325 00:19:26,543 00:19:29,935 is so pervasive, you just feel that you've made a decision, is so pervasive, you just feel that you've made a decision,
326 00:19:29,950 00:19:31,725 you'll have a cup of coffee, these things... you'll have a cup of coffee, these things...
327 00:19:31,733 00:19:33,937 you feel like you're driving this very complex machine. you feel like you're driving this very complex machine.
328 00:19:33,945 00:19:34,920 Yes, you certainly do. Yes, you certainly do.
329 00:19:34,943 00:19:37,707 If you didn't feel that you wouldn't be very well adapted to the world. If you didn't feel that you wouldn't be very well adapted to the world.
330 00:19:37,708 00:19:38,494 No, that's right. No, that's right.
331 00:19:38,517 00:19:40,536 I mean, to be a fully functional animal, I mean, to be a fully functional animal,
332 00:19:40,567 00:19:43,107 which is what our ancestors were, which is what our ancestors were,
333 00:19:43,769 00:19:46,988 hunting and feeding and running and escaping from predators, hunting and feeding and running and escaping from predators,
334 00:19:47,203 00:19:50,947 you need to feel like a soul that's in control of the body. you need to feel like a soul that's in control of the body.
335 00:20:02,784 00:20:05,900 This is one reason why it's so hard to shake off This is one reason why it's so hard to shake off
336 00:20:05,913 00:20:08,294 the religious way of death. the religious way of death.
337 00:20:08,748 00:20:12,748 We are programmed to believe in something like a soul. We are programmed to believe in something like a soul.
338 00:20:14,883 00:20:17,810 Now, of course, I don't believe in a soul Now, of course, I don't believe in a soul
339 00:20:17,930 00:20:21,417 but I, too, have the feeling that there is some sort of essence but I, too, have the feeling that there is some sort of essence
340 00:20:21,440 00:20:24,867 of Richard Dawkins that makes me who I am... of Richard Dawkins that makes me who I am...
341 00:20:24,987 00:20:28,703 ..that gives me my unique personal identity. ..that gives me my unique personal identity.
342 00:20:31,797 00:20:33,907 'To understand more about this, 'To understand more about this,
343 00:20:33,908 00:20:36,957 I need to look at the role our memories play, I need to look at the role our memories play,
344 00:20:37,077 00:20:39,347 with the person who's known me longest ? with the person who's known me longest ?
345 00:20:39,796 00:20:42,263 my mother. my mother.
346 00:20:43,651 00:20:46,243 So what have we got here? We've got, um... So what have we got here? We've got, um...
347 00:20:46,273 00:20:47,423 Your first birthday party. Your first birthday party.
348 00:20:47,439 00:20:49,027 First birthday party. Yes. First birthday party. Yes.
349 00:20:49,268 00:20:51,219 Well, I've no memory of this at all. Well, I've no memory of this at all.
350 00:20:51,798 00:20:53,413 That's presumably me, is it? That's presumably me, is it?
351 00:20:53,603 00:20:55,027 Yes, that's you. Yes, that's you.
352 00:20:55,147 00:20:59,028 In a little dress that your granny sent out from England. In a little dress that your granny sent out from England.
353 00:20:59,920 00:21:04,183 'Our memories are hugely important to our sense of who we are.' 'Our memories are hugely important to our sense of who we are.'
354 00:21:06,643 00:21:08,067 That's Kilimanjaro. That's Kilimanjaro.
355 00:21:08,535 00:21:09,771 Oh, yes. Oh, yes.
356 00:21:10,152 00:21:12,827 You used to like saying words like Kilimanjaro. You used to like saying words like Kilimanjaro.
357 00:21:13,116 00:21:14,027 Oh, right. Oh, right.
358 00:21:15,287 00:21:19,097 But our memories lull us into a false sense of certainty. But our memories lull us into a false sense of certainty.
359 00:21:19,843 00:21:23,343 They are fallible, riddled with errors. They are fallible, riddled with errors.
360 00:21:24,706 00:21:28,751 - Another early memory was being stung by a scorpion. - Yes. - Another early memory was being stung by a scorpion. - Yes.
361 00:21:28,788 00:21:32,121 We were miles, absolutely miles from anywhere, We were miles, absolutely miles from anywhere,
362 00:21:32,241 00:21:36,508 and you suddenly jumped off your chair without your shoes on, and you suddenly jumped off your chair without your shoes on,
363 00:21:36,628 00:21:38,907 which you weren't allowed to do, which you weren't allowed to do,
364 00:21:39,241 00:21:41,778 and stepped on a scorpion... and stepped on a scorpion...
365 00:21:42,348 00:21:44,503 ..and Ali, ..and Ali,
366 00:21:44,747 00:21:47,108 our African boy, our African boy,
367 00:21:47,742 00:21:50,738 rushed in and got your foot and... rushed in and got your foot and...
368 00:21:50,858 00:21:52,825 squeezed it and sucked it... squeezed it and sucked it...
369 00:21:52,848 00:21:54,799 - Gosh! Good for Ali. - ..sucked it for hours. - Gosh! Good for Ali. - ..sucked it for hours.
370 00:21:54,814 00:21:56,787 - Yes. - Well, not hours but... - Yes. - Well, not hours but...
371 00:21:56,978 00:22:00,975 And you were screaming. We had to hold you while he sucked your foot... And you were screaming. We had to hold you while he sucked your foot...
372 00:22:01,013 00:22:04,387 Yes. I... My memory is slightly different. Yes. I... My memory is slightly different.
373 00:22:04,388 00:22:07,245 My memory is that I was walking along the floor My memory is that I was walking along the floor
374 00:22:07,260 00:22:10,764 - ..and I saw this creature walking across... - Yes. - ..and I saw this creature walking across... - Yes.
375 00:22:10,779 00:22:12,347 ..and I thought it was a lizard. ..and I thought it was a lizard.
376 00:22:12,467 00:22:13,387 Really? Really?
377 00:22:13,388 00:22:14,589 And I didn't step on it, And I didn't step on it,
378 00:22:14,604 00:22:18,347 I put my foot in the way of it to let it crawl over my foot. I put my foot in the way of it to let it crawl over my foot.
379 00:22:18,644 00:22:20,814 Well...you jumped off your chair... Well...you jumped off your chair...
380 00:22:20,829 00:22:22,907 Mmm. I don't remember the pain. Mmm. I don't remember the pain.
381 00:22:23,298 00:22:27,496 Don't you? Isn't that interesting? Cos that was the terrible bit. Don't you? Isn't that interesting? Cos that was the terrible bit.
382 00:22:29,004 00:22:33,121 We think back to our first memory, our first big adventure, We think back to our first memory, our first big adventure,
383 00:22:33,241 00:22:35,987 and it's almost as though there was a movie camera in our head and it's almost as though there was a movie camera in our head
384 00:22:35,988 00:22:37,867 recording every detail. recording every detail.
385 00:22:38,085 00:22:40,822 But that's not the way it is. That's an illusion. But that's not the way it is. That's an illusion.
386 00:22:40,942 00:22:44,854 What we're remembering is a memory of a memory of a memory, What we're remembering is a memory of a memory of a memory,
387 00:22:44,974 00:22:47,218 of perhaps the real thing. of perhaps the real thing.
388 00:22:47,675 00:22:50,106 A man may wear a wrist watch when he's 20 A man may wear a wrist watch when he's 20
389 00:22:50,113 00:22:52,045 and the same watch when he's 50. and the same watch when he's 50.
390 00:22:52,076 00:22:55,192 It's the same watch but it's not the same man inside. It's the same watch but it's not the same man inside.
391 00:22:55,512 00:22:59,622 Every atom in his body has changed, has turned over. Every atom in his body has changed, has turned over.
392 00:22:59,742 00:23:02,467 I'm not the child I once was. I'm not the child I once was.
393 00:23:02,587 00:23:05,583 The child I once was is dead. The child I once was is dead.
394 00:23:10,578 00:23:14,341 So the physical cells that once made me are long gone So the physical cells that once made me are long gone
395 00:23:14,764 00:23:17,538 and my memories are more tenuous than I would wish. and my memories are more tenuous than I would wish.
396 00:23:19,808 00:23:23,543 The connection between younger and older Richard Dawkins The connection between younger and older Richard Dawkins
397 00:23:23,663 00:23:26,474 isn't as strong as I might like it to be. isn't as strong as I might like it to be.
398 00:23:28,379 00:23:30,284 And I think this is why And I think this is why
399 00:23:30,291 00:23:32,843 the religious idea of something permanent, the religious idea of something permanent,
400 00:23:33,148 00:23:35,639 the soul, is so plausible. the soul, is so plausible.
401 00:23:37,247 00:23:41,263 Now I want to explore the reality of why we die. Now I want to explore the reality of why we die.
402 00:23:57,137 00:24:00,573 Religion still dominates our thinking about death. Religion still dominates our thinking about death.
403 00:24:01,591 00:24:04,943 If we get rid of God, what's left? If we get rid of God, what's left?
404 00:24:07,041 00:24:10,066 I'm on a voyage to tell you the extraordinary truth I'm on a voyage to tell you the extraordinary truth
405 00:24:10,089 00:24:13,623 that science reveals about death. that science reveals about death.
406 00:24:19,031 00:24:21,145 According to evolutionary science, According to evolutionary science,
407 00:24:21,146 00:24:24,065 death is not something to be overcome at all. death is not something to be overcome at all.
408 00:24:24,066 00:24:26,823 It's a necessary part of the picture. It's a necessary part of the picture.
409 00:24:30,490 00:24:32,280 I'm joining the scientists on board I'm joining the scientists on board
410 00:24:32,600 00:24:36,346 Bangor University's research vessel on the Irish Sea. Bangor University's research vessel on the Irish Sea.
411 00:24:36,366 00:24:38,048 - Is that alive? - Yeah, yeah. - Is that alive? - Yeah, yeah.
412 00:24:38,168 00:24:39,106 So where do you put that? So where do you put that?
413 00:24:39,122 00:24:42,023 'They are studying the lifespan of a species of clam 'They are studying the lifespan of a species of clam
414 00:24:42,143 00:24:44,362 'called Arctica Islandica. 'called Arctica Islandica.
415 00:24:44,583 00:24:46,252 They may look rather ordinary They may look rather ordinary
416 00:24:46,410 00:24:50,583 'but they have one attribute that is really quite amazing. 'but they have one attribute that is really quite amazing.
417 00:24:51,427 00:24:55,679 'These clams are among the longest-living animals on Earth.' 'These clams are among the longest-living animals on Earth.'
418 00:24:59,357 00:25:01,696 Save that one or not? Save that one or not?
419 00:25:03,593 00:25:05,303 The reason why we are so interested in this The reason why we are so interested in this
420 00:25:05,423 00:25:07,357 is that this is a very long-lived species. is that this is a very long-lived species.
421 00:25:07,415 00:25:09,146 We can pull it up from the wild We can pull it up from the wild
422 00:25:09,160 00:25:13,343 and assign a year - almost to within one year - how old it is. and assign a year - almost to within one year - how old it is.
423 00:25:13,666 00:25:16,899 Basically, the shell grows in incremental steps. Basically, the shell grows in incremental steps.
424 00:25:17,019 00:25:18,503 Each ring is an annual ring, Each ring is an annual ring,
425 00:25:18,623 00:25:20,983 so the growth is very much like a tree. so the growth is very much like a tree.
426 00:25:21,210 00:25:22,981 Can you guess from this one how old is it? Can you guess from this one how old is it?
427 00:25:23,101 00:25:24,899 There's a size growth curve. There's a size growth curve.
428 00:25:24,921 00:25:27,863 This is probably 80 to 150 years old. This is probably 80 to 150 years old.
429 00:25:27,983 00:25:30,305 The oldest of them reach what sort of age? The oldest of them reach what sort of age?
430 00:25:30,306 00:25:34,306 Around the UK, it's around about 220 years. Around the UK, it's around about 220 years.
431 00:25:34,654 00:25:36,466 Up in Iceland, in the far north, Up in Iceland, in the far north,
432 00:25:36,480 00:25:39,691 they'll hit 350, 400, maybe even 500 years. they'll hit 350, 400, maybe even 500 years.
433 00:25:46,815 00:25:50,281 Only recently, this research team found a clam that had lived Only recently, this research team found a clam that had lived
434 00:25:50,510 00:25:53,489 for more than half a millennium. for more than half a millennium.
435 00:25:56,259 00:25:59,756 It's amazing to think that some of these clams that we're dredging up It's amazing to think that some of these clams that we're dredging up
436 00:25:59,763 00:26:01,552 were born before Darwin, were born before Darwin,
437 00:26:01,904 00:26:04,913 even before Elizabeth I. even before Elizabeth I.
438 00:26:06,376 00:26:09,241 So, why do they live so long? So, why do they live so long?
439 00:26:10,370 00:26:13,785 Any evolutionary explanation of why aging happens Any evolutionary explanation of why aging happens
440 00:26:13,905 00:26:15,371 has to do two things. has to do two things.
441 00:26:15,424 00:26:17,847 It has to be able to explain It has to be able to explain
442 00:26:17,866 00:26:20,451 why you see aging in many species. why you see aging in many species.
443 00:26:20,485 00:26:23,262 It also has to be able to explain It also has to be able to explain
444 00:26:23,382 00:26:25,986 why you see enormously long lifespans why you see enormously long lifespans
445 00:26:26,029 00:26:29,750 or possibly no aging in a very few species. or possibly no aging in a very few species.
446 00:26:30,029 00:26:33,165 And the clams, I think, may be an example of this. And the clams, I think, may be an example of this.
447 00:26:33,173 00:26:35,054 Because you've seen them and handled them for yourself. Because you've seen them and handled them for yourself.
448 00:26:35,174 00:26:37,058 They have enormously thick shells. They have enormously thick shells.
449 00:26:37,246 00:26:40,373 I don't think there are very many things down there I don't think there are very many things down there
450 00:26:40,380 00:26:43,262 that can actually bite through them. that can actually bite through them.
451 00:26:43,291 00:26:45,615 And so they can sit around And so they can sit around
452 00:26:45,958 00:26:49,068 and they can just carry on producing offspring and they can just carry on producing offspring
453 00:26:49,069 00:26:51,608 once they've reached a certain size. once they've reached a certain size.
454 00:26:53,597 00:26:56,690 These clams are continuing to pass on their genes These clams are continuing to pass on their genes
455 00:26:56,736 00:27:01,856 to the next generation, even at 200 and 300 years old.' to the next generation, even at 200 and 300 years old.'
456 00:27:03,021 00:27:06,028 So, from the evolutionary point of view, it is not just that So, from the evolutionary point of view, it is not just that
457 00:27:06,029 00:27:09,668 the individuals are well protected against being eaten. the individuals are well protected against being eaten.
458 00:27:09,788 00:27:12,948 Because they're well-protected against being eaten, Because they're well-protected against being eaten,
459 00:27:12,949 00:27:16,508 it's a good gamble to stay alive a long time, it's a good gamble to stay alive a long time,
460 00:27:16,509 00:27:19,173 because you've got a good chance of reproducing later. because you've got a good chance of reproducing later.
461 00:27:19,196 00:27:21,779 Whereas something like a salmon... Whereas something like a salmon...
462 00:27:22,198 00:27:24,808 has a very poor chance of reproducing again, has a very poor chance of reproducing again,
463 00:27:24,823 00:27:29,113 so it might as well throw everything it's got into one big gamble now. so it might as well throw everything it's got into one big gamble now.
464 00:27:29,586 00:27:31,132 That's exactly it. That's exactly it.
465 00:27:31,133 00:27:33,908 There is no point in spending resources There is no point in spending resources
466 00:27:33,909 00:27:36,668 to make a body that will last 400 years to make a body that will last 400 years
467 00:27:36,669 00:27:39,657 if your chance of making it through the night is pretty slim. if your chance of making it through the night is pretty slim.
468 00:27:48,465 00:27:53,070 So, evolutionary science tells us a lot about ageing and death. So, evolutionary science tells us a lot about ageing and death.
469 00:27:54,987 00:27:58,630 The clams are able to reproduce when they are hundreds of years old, The clams are able to reproduce when they are hundreds of years old,
470 00:27:59,247 00:28:01,585 and so long as they are able to reproduce, and so long as they are able to reproduce,
471 00:28:01,961 00:28:04,658 their genes keep them alive. their genes keep them alive.
472 00:28:05,968 00:28:10,069 We need to see death from a gene's eye point of view. We need to see death from a gene's eye point of view.
473 00:28:13,045 00:28:16,080 Our bodies are survival machines for genes. Our bodies are survival machines for genes.
474 00:28:17,002 00:28:19,821 Once our genes have got us to reproductive age Once our genes have got us to reproductive age
475 00:28:19,836 00:28:22,748 and copied themselves into a new generation, and copied themselves into a new generation,
476 00:28:22,749 00:28:25,680 our bodies have less purpose. our bodies have less purpose.
477 00:28:25,909 00:28:27,838 Time bombs inside us go off. Time bombs inside us go off.
478 00:28:28,683 00:28:30,138 We age. We age.
479 00:28:30,161 00:28:31,670 We die. We die.
480 00:28:34,228 00:28:38,906 So, rather than looking upon ageing as a wearing out of the body, So, rather than looking upon ageing as a wearing out of the body,
481 00:28:38,914 00:28:43,829 perhaps we should see it as a side effect of how our genes work. perhaps we should see it as a side effect of how our genes work.
482 00:28:47,547 00:28:52,004 Even extraordinary exceptions throw light on this truth. Even extraordinary exceptions throw light on this truth.
483 00:28:54,789 00:28:57,029 This is Irving Kahn, This is Irving Kahn,
484 00:28:57,149 00:29:00,562 a financial trader on New York's Madison Avenue, a financial trader on New York's Madison Avenue,
485 00:29:00,682 00:29:04,202 who has come to work every day since 1927. who has come to work every day since 1927.
486 00:29:06,012 00:29:09,350 Irving is 105 years old. Irving is 105 years old.
487 00:29:09,570 00:29:12,169 Do you remember the Wall Street crash? Do you remember the Wall Street crash?
488 00:29:12,508 00:29:15,308 Oh, yes. I came just at the time. Oh, yes. I came just at the time.
489 00:29:15,428 00:29:22,407 About three or four months before the peak, the summer of 1928, '29. About three or four months before the peak, the summer of 1928, '29.
490 00:29:24,609 00:29:27,658 And that was one reason I didn't like the business. And that was one reason I didn't like the business.
491 00:29:27,678 00:29:28,395 Yes. Yes.
492 00:29:28,410 00:29:31,701 Because I came here, went to the exchange Because I came here, went to the exchange
493 00:29:31,821 00:29:33,128 on Wall Street, on Wall Street,
494 00:29:33,248 00:29:38,187 and found, after a week on the floor, that it was like working in a casino. and found, after a week on the floor, that it was like working in a casino.
495 00:29:38,202 00:29:38,994 I can imagine. I can imagine.
496 00:29:39,010 00:29:40,741 - A gambling house. - Yes. - A gambling house. - Yes.
497 00:29:40,861 00:29:42,993 I understand that, not just you I understand that, not just you
498 00:29:43,011 00:29:45,937 but many members of your family are extremely long-lived. but many members of your family are extremely long-lived.
499 00:29:45,976 00:29:49,817 Yes, my brother Peter is about 103 or 104. Yes, my brother Peter is about 103 or 104.
500 00:29:49,937 00:29:51,781 - I'm 105. - Yes. - I'm 105. - Yes.
501 00:29:52,139 00:29:56,571 I have limited renals and limited hearsight - I have limited renals and limited hearsight -
502 00:29:56,982 00:30:01,600 and I hope, the right number of marbles. and I hope, the right number of marbles.
503 00:30:01,630 00:30:03,215 You have got a lot of marbles, I think! You have got a lot of marbles, I think!
504 00:30:03,261 00:30:04,876 What about your sister, how old is she? What about your sister, how old is she?
505 00:30:04,889 00:30:06,926 She's 108. She's 108.
506 00:30:07,429 00:30:09,487 Mr Kahn, is it possible to give us an idea Mr Kahn, is it possible to give us an idea
507 00:30:09,494 00:30:12,310 what it feels like to be your age? what it feels like to be your age?
508 00:30:13,273 00:30:16,190 It's much better and it's much worse. It's much better and it's much worse.
509 00:30:21,659 00:30:25,261 So, why do some people's genes keep their bodies going So, why do some people's genes keep their bodies going
510 00:30:25,262 00:30:26,486 for so much longer? for so much longer?
511 00:30:28,125 00:30:31,030 The curious case of Irving Kahn and his family The curious case of Irving Kahn and his family
512 00:30:31,150 00:30:35,270 has intrigued scientists who are trying to answer this very question. has intrigued scientists who are trying to answer this very question.
513 00:30:38,376 00:30:43,068 When we ask our people, why do you think you live to be so old? When we ask our people, why do you think you live to be so old?
514 00:30:43,403 00:30:44,941 One of the things they're saying, One of the things they're saying,
515 00:30:44,963 00:30:49,382 "Hey, it's in my family. My mother was 102, my grandfather was 108." "Hey, it's in my family. My mother was 102, my grandfather was 108."
516 00:30:49,502 00:30:53,597 Irving can show that he has four other siblings Irving can show that he has four other siblings
517 00:30:53,598 00:30:56,270 that lived to be 100. that lived to be 100.
518 00:30:59,320 00:31:03,314 The study looked at 500 aged Ashkenazi Jews, The study looked at 500 aged Ashkenazi Jews,
519 00:31:03,403 00:31:06,842 like Irving Kahn, from the same geographical area, like Irving Kahn, from the same geographical area,
520 00:31:06,843 00:31:10,843 whose environment and genes can be easily compared. whose environment and genes can be easily compared.
521 00:31:14,331 00:31:17,866 For Irving, and especially for his sister, Helen, For Irving, and especially for his sister, Helen,
522 00:31:18,171 00:31:21,120 she's been smoking for 95 years, she's been smoking for 95 years,
523 00:31:21,592 00:31:24,347 two packs for 95 years, two packs for 95 years,
524 00:31:24,467 00:31:27,930 which shows you that if you smoke for 95 years, you live a long life! which shows you that if you smoke for 95 years, you live a long life!
525 00:31:27,931 00:31:28,816 I know it doesn't! I know it doesn't!
526 00:31:28,823 00:31:30,909 I can assure you... I can assure you that that's true. I can assure you... I can assure you that that's true.
527 00:31:31,595 00:31:35,266 And Irving has smoked for about 30 years in his life. And Irving has smoked for about 30 years in his life.
528 00:31:35,526 00:31:40,236 So the point here is that our centenarians, as a group, So the point here is that our centenarians, as a group,
529 00:31:40,356 00:31:42,930 did not interact with their environment did not interact with their environment
530 00:31:43,050 00:31:46,978 the way we tell... the way the doctors tell their patients, the way we tell... the way the doctors tell their patients,
531 00:31:47,001 00:31:50,170 that you have to watch your weight, you have to exercise, that you have to watch your weight, you have to exercise,
532 00:31:50,171 00:31:51,778 you shouldn't smoke you shouldn't smoke
533 00:31:51,793 00:31:55,370 and you should drink one cup of alcohol a day and you should drink one cup of alcohol a day
534 00:31:55,490 00:31:58,626 and all the things we know to tell them. It doesn't matter for them. and all the things we know to tell them. It doesn't matter for them.
535 00:32:00,517 00:32:03,839 So, for some, lifestyle and environment So, for some, lifestyle and environment
536 00:32:03,862 00:32:07,186 don't play as large a role as we've been told. don't play as large a role as we've been told.
537 00:32:07,813 00:32:11,346 But if Irving's genes hold the secret to long life, But if Irving's genes hold the secret to long life,
538 00:32:11,531 00:32:15,651 why hasn't evolution given us all genes like his? why hasn't evolution given us all genes like his?
539 00:32:16,173 00:32:20,811 If there are genes that increase longevity out into the hundreds, If there are genes that increase longevity out into the hundreds,
540 00:32:20,931 00:32:25,462 why didn't natural selection favour those genes in our ancestral past? why didn't natural selection favour those genes in our ancestral past?
541 00:32:26,102 00:32:28,921 Well, I will tell you, there is something very upsetting Well, I will tell you, there is something very upsetting
542 00:32:29,041 00:32:31,885 in this sense in our group. in this sense in our group.
543 00:32:32,005 00:32:36,050 First of all, a third of the centenarians in the world don't have children. First of all, a third of the centenarians in the world don't have children.
544 00:32:36,051 00:32:39,582 OK, so I don't know, is it having children, raising them, OK, so I don't know, is it having children, raising them,
545 00:32:39,771 00:32:41,223 rearing them, I don't know what? rearing them, I don't know what?
546 00:32:41,239 00:32:43,913 But... the point is that there is some exchange But... the point is that there is some exchange
547 00:32:43,928 00:32:46,305 between reproduction and aging. between reproduction and aging.
548 00:32:46,328 00:32:49,962 But also, in my study, the centenarians had less kids But also, in my study, the centenarians had less kids
549 00:32:50,371 00:32:54,630 at a much later age than my control population. at a much later age than my control population.
550 00:32:55,148 00:32:59,394 So, if the control population has three to five kids on average, So, if the control population has three to five kids on average,
551 00:32:59,611 00:33:03,131 our centenarians are 1.7 kids on average. our centenarians are 1.7 kids on average.
552 00:33:03,251 00:33:06,091 And so, if you are thinking that way, And so, if you are thinking that way,
553 00:33:06,211 00:33:09,310 we're losing longevity genes, right? we're losing longevity genes, right?
554 00:33:09,371 00:33:12,250 Because in every generation, we populate more Because in every generation, we populate more
555 00:33:12,251 00:33:15,921 with kids of the people who don't have longevity genes with kids of the people who don't have longevity genes
556 00:33:15,936 00:33:18,024 than have longevity genes. than have longevity genes.
557 00:33:21,704 00:33:25,466 Our genes appear to trade long life for reproduction. Our genes appear to trade long life for reproduction.
558 00:33:27,093 00:33:30,598 Longevity seems to be connected to later reproduction Longevity seems to be connected to later reproduction
559 00:33:30,613 00:33:32,510 or no children at all. or no children at all.
560 00:33:34,042 00:33:38,387 So how long we live and why we die are dependent on our genes. So how long we live and why we die are dependent on our genes.
561 00:33:39,148 00:33:42,927 And I'm about to look my own genetic code straight in the face. And I'm about to look my own genetic code straight in the face.
562 00:33:48,211 00:33:50,165 Advances in genetic science mean Advances in genetic science mean
563 00:33:50,196 00:33:54,371 it is now possible for me to get my entire genome decoded. it is now possible for me to get my entire genome decoded.
564 00:33:59,731 00:34:02,611 There's something very personal and intimate about it as well. There's something very personal and intimate about it as well.
565 00:34:02,731 00:34:05,489 This is something that is absolutely unique to me, This is something that is absolutely unique to me,
566 00:34:05,497 00:34:08,110 there's never ever been, in the history of the world, there's never ever been, in the history of the world,
567 00:34:08,133 00:34:10,170 nor will there be again nor will there be again
568 00:34:10,290 00:34:12,331 a genome which is the same as mine, a genome which is the same as mine,
569 00:34:12,376 00:34:15,826 or the same as yours, or the same as anybody else's. or the same as yours, or the same as anybody else's.
570 00:34:22,893 00:34:25,906 This new science is still in its infancy. This new science is still in its infancy.
571 00:34:26,451 00:34:29,690 I'm going to be one of just a dozen people in the world I'm going to be one of just a dozen people in the world
572 00:34:29,810 00:34:31,720 and the first person in Britain publicly and the first person in Britain publicly
573 00:34:32,024 00:34:35,270 to have their whole genome sequenced. to have their whole genome sequenced.
574 00:34:40,664 00:34:43,050 What we're doing here is very new for us, actually, What we're doing here is very new for us, actually,
575 00:34:43,051 00:34:45,224 and it's actually very exciting for us. and it's actually very exciting for us.
576 00:34:45,254 00:34:48,911 We're taking a genome of a healthy person and we are asking, We're taking a genome of a healthy person and we are asking,
577 00:34:48,917 00:34:51,554 what can we learn about that person? what can we learn about that person?
578 00:34:51,674 00:34:54,890 It is your most important bit of information about you, It is your most important bit of information about you,
579 00:34:54,891 00:34:56,171 is your genome sequence. is your genome sequence.
580 00:34:56,529 00:34:59,447 But on a serious note, of course, we may find information But on a serious note, of course, we may find information
581 00:34:59,729 00:35:04,054 in your genome that has clinical or health implications. in your genome that has clinical or health implications.
582 00:35:04,174 00:35:05,843 Yes, I have thought about that. Yes, I have thought about that.
583 00:35:05,963 00:35:07,367 So, let's go, let's go and do it. So, let's go, let's go and do it.
584 00:35:07,626 00:35:08,967 OK. OK.
585 00:35:10,041 00:35:12,826 It'll just be a little scratch as the needle goes in. It'll just be a little scratch as the needle goes in.
586 00:35:13,131 00:35:16,955 'Having my blood taken is only the first stage in a complex process.' 'Having my blood taken is only the first stage in a complex process.'
587 00:35:17,171 00:35:18,464 OK, so we're almost there. OK, so we're almost there.
588 00:35:18,929 00:35:21,266 This is the most painless blood test I've ever had. This is the most painless blood test I've ever had.
589 00:35:23,367 00:35:26,026 'Having my genome decoded is, in effect, 'Having my genome decoded is, in effect,
590 00:35:26,217 00:35:30,331 a way of narrowing down how and when I'm going to die. a way of narrowing down how and when I'm going to die.
591 00:35:30,788 00:35:34,651 'My journey to understand death has become personal.' 'My journey to understand death has become personal.'
592 00:35:34,811 00:35:36,849 You have roughly 100 mutations You have roughly 100 mutations
593 00:35:36,857 00:35:41,706 which have been reported as being associated with a disease. which have been reported as being associated with a disease.
594 00:35:53,435 00:35:56,487 'I may be one of a handful of individuals in the world 'I may be one of a handful of individuals in the world
595 00:35:56,495 00:35:58,788 'to have their genome sequenced, 'to have their genome sequenced,
596 00:35:59,093 00:36:01,394 but before I find out my results but before I find out my results
597 00:36:01,441 00:36:04,230 'I'm off to meet the man who was first. 'I'm off to meet the man who was first.
598 00:36:05,655 00:36:07,735 'And he isn't just anyone. 'And he isn't just anyone.
599 00:36:07,765 00:36:11,719 'He's one of the two men who made this new science possible - 'He's one of the two men who made this new science possible -
600 00:36:11,839 00:36:13,950 'James Watson.' 'James Watson.'
601 00:36:14,528 00:36:17,001 Well, it's certainly a very beautiful thing. Well, it's certainly a very beautiful thing.
602 00:36:17,121 00:36:19,040 'Together with Francis Crick, 'Together with Francis Crick,
603 00:36:19,041 00:36:22,159 'James Watson discovered that genes are digital codes 'James Watson discovered that genes are digital codes
604 00:36:22,167 00:36:24,460 'written on DNA molecules. 'written on DNA molecules.
605 00:36:26,139 00:36:29,441 'Watson and Crick's names will live forever. 'Watson and Crick's names will live forever.
606 00:36:29,920 00:36:33,561 'And Watson isn't shy about it.' 'And Watson isn't shy about it.'
607 00:36:34,375 00:36:38,240 So now I realise, I am, except for Hawking, So now I realise, I am, except for Hawking,
608 00:36:38,241 00:36:40,321 the most famous scientist alive. the most famous scientist alive.
609 00:36:40,354 00:36:42,333 Oh, wonderful, yes. Oh, wonderful, yes.
610 00:36:43,468 00:36:46,656 I turned out to be helped by people looking at my DNA. I turned out to be helped by people looking at my DNA.
611 00:36:47,049 00:36:48,163 In what way? In what way?
612 00:36:48,178 00:36:52,034 It revealed that I have a genetic polymorphism It revealed that I have a genetic polymorphism
613 00:36:52,554 00:36:56,734 which metabolises drugs and I have one which acts very slowly. which metabolises drugs and I have one which acts very slowly.
614 00:36:56,854 00:36:58,920 So if I take, er... So if I take, er...
615 00:36:59,621 00:37:00,962 beta blockers, beta blockers,
616 00:37:01,001 00:37:05,518 it stays in my system for a week instead of going away for a day. it stays in my system for a week instead of going away for a day.
617 00:37:05,854 00:37:09,040 So I've been given them for, you know, So I've been given them for, you know,
618 00:37:09,041 00:37:13,041 to help control my blood pressure and I went to sleep! to help control my blood pressure and I went to sleep!
619 00:37:15,675 00:37:18,011 Watson took a personal risk Watson took a personal risk
620 00:37:18,034 00:37:20,969 in making his genome available for study, in making his genome available for study,
621 00:37:21,089 00:37:24,532 exposing all its imperfections to public scrutiny exposing all its imperfections to public scrutiny
622 00:37:24,555 00:37:27,993 for the sake of advancing genetic research. for the sake of advancing genetic research.
623 00:37:28,755 00:37:31,185 Do you get great pleasure from ideas? Do you get great pleasure from ideas?
624 00:37:31,216 00:37:33,844 - No, I get pleasure from understanding. - Yes. - No, I get pleasure from understanding. - Yes.
625 00:37:34,036 00:37:37,047 So understanding, everything falls into place when you understand? So understanding, everything falls into place when you understand?
626 00:37:37,062 00:37:42,201 Yes, you move from... It's understanding, er... Yes, you move from... It's understanding, er...
627 00:37:43,720 00:37:47,481 that gives you happiness and I think it's one of the... that gives you happiness and I think it's one of the...
628 00:37:47,836 00:37:49,370 unique human features, unique human features,
629 00:37:49,401 00:37:53,995 because it's not limited to me but it clearly, because it's not limited to me but it clearly,
630 00:37:54,361 00:37:57,590 you know, when you're able to find out how to do something. you know, when you're able to find out how to do something.
631 00:38:04,121 00:38:07,320 This, for me, is what is so thrilling about science - This, for me, is what is so thrilling about science -
632 00:38:07,321 00:38:11,023 understanding things, such as how the DNA molecule understanding things, such as how the DNA molecule
633 00:38:11,038 00:38:14,096 underlies all life on Earth. underlies all life on Earth.
634 00:38:16,044 00:38:19,400 It's because Watson discovered the structure of DNA, It's because Watson discovered the structure of DNA,
635 00:38:19,401 00:38:21,344 over half a century ago, over half a century ago,
636 00:38:21,351 00:38:24,416 that today I'm able to have my own genome analysed that today I'm able to have my own genome analysed
637 00:38:24,881 00:38:30,725 and understand what makes me live, and how and when I might die. and understand what makes me live, and how and when I might die.
638 00:38:33,269 00:38:36,221 Today is a very special day for me. Today is a very special day for me.
639 00:38:36,217 00:38:38,800 In 50 years, lots of people will be able to say this, In 50 years, lots of people will be able to say this,
640 00:38:38,816 00:38:41,533 but today I'm one of very few people but today I'm one of very few people
641 00:38:41,653 00:38:44,653 who's had their entire genome sequenced. who's had their entire genome sequenced.
642 00:38:44,773 00:38:48,666 Today is the big day when I get to see the results. Today is the big day when I get to see the results.
643 00:38:51,041 00:38:54,195 So Richard, it's a long time since you were in Oxford So Richard, it's a long time since you were in Oxford
644 00:38:54,210 00:38:55,963 and we took an armful of your blood. and we took an armful of your blood.
645 00:38:55,993 00:38:58,043 We've had a team busy working since then, We've had a team busy working since then,
646 00:38:58,231 00:39:01,060 trying to extract the DNA and reconstruct your genome. trying to extract the DNA and reconstruct your genome.
647 00:39:01,180 00:39:02,631 We take these fragments... We take these fragments...
648 00:39:02,667 00:39:04,366 'To understand my genes, 'To understand my genes,
649 00:39:04,640 00:39:08,430 'Gil McVean matches them against the human reference genome - 'Gil McVean matches them against the human reference genome -
650 00:39:08,634 00:39:10,821 'a composite of anonymous donors 'a composite of anonymous donors
651 00:39:10,836 00:39:14,350 'that took ten years to decode and construct.' 'that took ten years to decode and construct.'
652 00:39:15,341 00:39:17,140 What we're really interested in What we're really interested in
653 00:39:17,141 00:39:19,354 is not saying where you agree with this reference is not saying where you agree with this reference
654 00:39:19,370 00:39:20,912 but finding places where you differ. but finding places where you differ.
655 00:39:21,204 00:39:24,099 In that, we find over four million differences In that, we find over four million differences
656 00:39:24,219 00:39:26,294 between your genome and that reference. between your genome and that reference.
657 00:39:26,456 00:39:29,640 We have about 50,000 variants that we have seen in you We have about 50,000 variants that we have seen in you
658 00:39:29,678 00:39:32,703 for the very first time, completely new to science. for the very first time, completely new to science.
659 00:39:33,313 00:39:36,729 'It is extraordinary that this enormous quantity of data 'It is extraordinary that this enormous quantity of data
660 00:39:36,730 00:39:40,369 'reveals incredibly precise details about me. 'reveals incredibly precise details about me.
661 00:39:40,370 00:39:42,417 'Elements of my private world 'Elements of my private world
662 00:39:42,537 00:39:46,489 'that I've never shared with anyone before, or known myself.' 'that I've never shared with anyone before, or known myself.'
663 00:39:46,609 00:39:48,769 You have a classic European mutation You have a classic European mutation
664 00:39:48,770 00:39:50,672 that means that you've got runny earwax. that means that you've got runny earwax.
665 00:39:50,792 00:39:54,855 Another one which means that you can smell asparagus in your own urine. Another one which means that you can smell asparagus in your own urine.
666 00:39:54,975 00:39:58,101 You've got another one that means you can taste broccoli. You've got another one that means you can taste broccoli.
667 00:39:58,490 00:39:59,984 They sound frivolous, They sound frivolous,
668 00:39:59,992 00:40:03,474 but at the same time they probably point to an evolutionary process but at the same time they probably point to an evolutionary process
669 00:40:03,527 00:40:07,810 and that's probably to do with your ability to detect toxins. and that's probably to do with your ability to detect toxins.
670 00:40:08,042 00:40:11,675 Plants have different toxins across the world. Plants have different toxins across the world.
671 00:40:11,676 00:40:14,249 There are local adaptations to toxins There are local adaptations to toxins
672 00:40:14,250 00:40:18,213 that you need to be able to recognise to survive. that you need to be able to recognise to survive.
673 00:40:18,434 00:40:21,750 'Buried in my genome is the story of my own survival, 'Buried in my genome is the story of my own survival,
674 00:40:22,474 00:40:26,010 'but also clues about how I may die. 'but also clues about how I may die.
675 00:40:26,130 00:40:30,130 'Do I have ticking time bombs in my genetic code?' 'Do I have ticking time bombs in my genetic code?'
676 00:40:31,113 00:40:32,896 You have roughly a hundred mutations You have roughly a hundred mutations
677 00:40:32,919 00:40:36,923 which have been seen before in clinical settings which have been seen before in clinical settings
678 00:40:36,969 00:40:40,458 and have been reported as being associated with a disease. and have been reported as being associated with a disease.
679 00:40:40,850 00:40:44,929 Having these mutations doesn't mean you'll definitely get the disease, Having these mutations doesn't mean you'll definitely get the disease,
680 00:40:45,049 00:40:46,893 it just alters your chance of getting that. it just alters your chance of getting that.
681 00:40:47,487 00:40:49,369 These are the variants that you carry These are the variants that you carry
682 00:40:49,392 00:40:54,690 which have been associated with a whole range of common disorders. which have been associated with a whole range of common disorders.
683 00:40:54,810 00:40:57,129 Everything from cancer through to type II diabetes Everything from cancer through to type II diabetes
684 00:40:57,144 00:40:59,116 through to schizophrenia. through to schizophrenia.
685 00:40:59,570 00:41:01,914 Let's just take an example of this. Let's just take an example of this.
686 00:41:01,960 00:41:04,982 If you zoom in on chromosome 11, you've got a mutation If you zoom in on chromosome 11, you've got a mutation
687 00:41:05,330 00:41:09,660 which the literature tells you is associated with, or causes porphyria, which the literature tells you is associated with, or causes porphyria,
688 00:41:09,668 00:41:13,729 which is the disease that people hypothesised for a while which is the disease that people hypothesised for a while
689 00:41:13,730 00:41:15,672 caused the madness of King George. caused the madness of King George.
690 00:41:15,792 00:41:17,809 It's a nasty disease. You would know if you had it. It's a nasty disease. You would know if you had it.
691 00:41:17,929 00:41:21,236 You should have a 70% chance of getting porphyria. You should have a 70% chance of getting porphyria.
692 00:41:22,411 00:41:26,631 'So I've dodged that bullet, but there are other threats. 'So I've dodged that bullet, but there are other threats.
693 00:41:26,751 00:41:29,465 'It's so impressively precise! 'It's so impressively precise!
694 00:41:29,717 00:41:32,209 'My genome reveals that if I smoked, 'My genome reveals that if I smoked,
695 00:41:32,210 00:41:34,669 'I would have been in the most high-risk group 'I would have been in the most high-risk group
696 00:41:34,684 00:41:36,904 'for developing lung cancer.' 'for developing lung cancer.'
697 00:41:38,100 00:41:41,369 Your genotype doubles your risk of getting lung cancer Your genotype doubles your risk of getting lung cancer
698 00:41:41,489 00:41:43,205 but actually the way it does it but actually the way it does it
699 00:41:43,220 00:41:46,890 is through doubling your risk of smoking in a particular way. is through doubling your risk of smoking in a particular way.
700 00:41:47,010 00:41:50,667 So this variant influences your risk of getting lung cancer So this variant influences your risk of getting lung cancer
701 00:41:50,675 00:41:52,800 because it changes the way people smoke. because it changes the way people smoke.
702 00:41:52,839 00:41:54,263 They smoke deeper breaths, They smoke deeper breaths,
703 00:41:54,538 00:41:56,688 they smoke closer to the end of the cigarette. they smoke closer to the end of the cigarette.
704 00:41:56,734 00:42:00,463 What it actually does is change your smoking habits. What it actually does is change your smoking habits.
705 00:42:00,509 00:42:01,932 How fascinating! How fascinating!
706 00:42:02,052 00:42:05,930 So it's picked up as a gene for lung cancer So it's picked up as a gene for lung cancer
707 00:42:06,050 00:42:09,753 but the method of transmission, the method of effect but the method of transmission, the method of effect
708 00:42:09,873 00:42:11,724 - ..is via smoking behaviour. - Exactly. - ..is via smoking behaviour. - Exactly.
709 00:42:12,016 00:42:14,207 This raises the question of whether you've ever smoked. This raises the question of whether you've ever smoked.
710 00:42:14,208 00:42:15,892 Do you like the smell of wood smoke? Do you like the smell of wood smoke?
711 00:42:15,907 00:42:17,393 No, I've never smoked. No, I've never smoked.
712 00:42:17,431 00:42:20,556 That's good, but don't take up smoking is my advice. That's good, but don't take up smoking is my advice.
713 00:42:20,816 00:42:23,688 It seems to me to be utterly astonishing It seems to me to be utterly astonishing
714 00:42:23,711 00:42:27,833 that it's possible for scientists to take an individual that it's possible for scientists to take an individual
715 00:42:27,953 00:42:35,195 and to detect these millions of digital pieces of information and to detect these millions of digital pieces of information
716 00:42:35,835 00:42:39,486 to actually read it out as though it was a computer disk. to actually read it out as though it was a computer disk.
717 00:42:39,606 00:42:44,023 Well, here it is then. Here is your genome. Look after it! Well, here it is then. Here is your genome. Look after it!
718 00:42:44,053 00:42:45,135 Thank you very much! Thank you very much!
719 00:42:45,379 00:42:47,680 I'm delighted to have it. I'm delighted to have it.
720 00:42:48,050 00:42:51,757 Thank you so much for all the work you and your colleagues have put in. Thank you so much for all the work you and your colleagues have put in.
721 00:42:52,130 00:42:54,769 I mean, when I look at this, this little box here, I mean, when I look at this, this little box here,
722 00:42:54,770 00:42:58,337 what it contains is all the information necessary what it contains is all the information necessary
723 00:42:58,782 00:43:02,796 to make... not quite me, to make an identical twin of me. to make... not quite me, to make an identical twin of me.
724 00:43:03,369 00:43:06,287 And I think that's an astonishing thought. And I think that's an astonishing thought.
725 00:43:06,769 00:43:08,966 Thank you very, very much for this. Thank you very, very much for this.
726 00:43:08,997 00:43:09,941 It's been a pleasure. It's been a pleasure.
727 00:43:19,726 00:43:22,639 As we come to learn more about DNA, As we come to learn more about DNA,
728 00:43:22,759 00:43:26,210 our relationship with death is bound to change. our relationship with death is bound to change.
729 00:43:28,758 00:43:31,756 And as more of us have our genomes analysed, And as more of us have our genomes analysed,
730 00:43:32,016 00:43:36,160 will we be able to avoid those ticking time bombs contained in our codes will we be able to avoid those ticking time bombs contained in our codes
731 00:43:36,747 00:43:40,530 that killed our ancestors after they reproduced? that killed our ancestors after they reproduced?
732 00:43:49,450 00:43:52,770 This is my genome, my whole genome. This is my genome, my whole genome.
733 00:43:52,890 00:43:57,111 And strangely enough, portions of my genome are behind that door. And strangely enough, portions of my genome are behind that door.
734 00:43:57,650 00:44:00,718 Behind there is the Dawkins' family vault. Behind there is the Dawkins' family vault.
735 00:44:01,090 00:44:05,633 This has been the Dawkins' church since the 1720s This has been the Dawkins' church since the 1720s
736 00:44:05,753 00:44:10,647 and in there are 20 of my relations, many of them my ancestors, and in there are 20 of my relations, many of them my ancestors,
737 00:44:10,767 00:44:13,146 and they have contributed some of the genes and they have contributed some of the genes
738 00:44:13,152 00:44:16,246 that are inside this little silver box. that are inside this little silver box.
739 00:44:17,267 00:44:20,619 At the top, next to the top there, At the top, next to the top there,
740 00:44:21,010 00:44:25,932 Henry Dawkins, and then three down, his wife, Lady Juliana Dawkins. Henry Dawkins, and then three down, his wife, Lady Juliana Dawkins.
741 00:44:26,473 00:44:31,258 They are my four greats - my great, great, great, great grandparents. They are my four greats - my great, great, great, great grandparents.
742 00:44:31,650 00:44:36,831 One-64th of the genes inside this little silver box come from Henry. One-64th of the genes inside this little silver box come from Henry.
743 00:44:37,450 00:44:40,103 The bottom of this column here, the middle column, is another Henry, The bottom of this column here, the middle column, is another Henry,
744 00:44:40,223 00:44:45,250 his son - he has contributed one-32nd part his son - he has contributed one-32nd part
745 00:44:45,370 00:44:47,870 of the genes inside this hard disk. of the genes inside this hard disk.
746 00:44:48,544 00:44:51,234 Unfortunately, the door can't be opened. Unfortunately, the door can't be opened.
747 00:44:51,470 00:44:54,289 It hasn't been opened since, I think, 1919. It hasn't been opened since, I think, 1919.
748 00:44:54,290 00:44:56,878 They've lost the key, nobody knows how to open it. They've lost the key, nobody knows how to open it.
749 00:44:56,893 00:45:00,353 There are some slots in there that I should never occupy There are some slots in there that I should never occupy
750 00:45:00,368 00:45:02,212 unless they can get the door open! unless they can get the door open!
751 00:45:02,219 00:45:03,796 What would be rather nice What would be rather nice
752 00:45:03,819 00:45:07,376 would be if we could somehow post this disk in there would be if we could somehow post this disk in there
753 00:45:07,429 00:45:09,967 to rest alongside my ancestors. to rest alongside my ancestors.
754 00:45:11,711 00:45:16,290 But the genes, the set of instructions inside us, don't rest. But the genes, the set of instructions inside us, don't rest.
755 00:45:17,007 00:45:20,382 Just as they have come from our ancestors before us, Just as they have come from our ancestors before us,
756 00:45:20,405 00:45:23,489 so too do they march on into our children so too do they march on into our children
757 00:45:23,490 00:45:27,490 and their children's children. and their children's children.
758 00:45:28,413 00:45:33,043 Our genes are a kind of archive of the remote past. Our genes are a kind of archive of the remote past.
759 00:45:33,163 00:45:37,370 They go through us to the remote future. They go through us to the remote future.
760 00:45:37,490 00:45:40,344 Henry Dawkins may be my four greats grandfather Henry Dawkins may be my four greats grandfather
761 00:45:40,464 00:45:42,809 and he's put some genes in here, and he's put some genes in here,
762 00:45:42,810 00:45:45,701 but my two hundred million greats grandfather... but my two hundred million greats grandfather...
763 00:45:45,724 00:45:47,567 was a fish, and, by the way, was a fish, and, by the way,
764 00:45:47,590 00:45:51,339 the same fish was your two hundred million greats grandfather too. the same fish was your two hundred million greats grandfather too.
765 00:45:51,529 00:45:55,690 Amazingly, even he has put some genes in here, Amazingly, even he has put some genes in here,
766 00:45:55,918 00:45:59,596 and they, too, have a chance of going on to the remote future. and they, too, have a chance of going on to the remote future.
767 00:46:01,403 00:46:04,477 Our genes are, in a sense, immortal. Our genes are, in a sense, immortal.
768 00:46:04,597 00:46:08,289 That's not comforting in the way the soul is supposed to be, That's not comforting in the way the soul is supposed to be,
769 00:46:08,290 00:46:12,528 but it is a wonderful thought and it is true. but it is a wonderful thought and it is true.
770 00:46:13,850 00:46:17,911 We may argue about whether we have an immortal soul We may argue about whether we have an immortal soul
771 00:46:17,926 00:46:22,210 that survives our death, but one thing science tells us for sure that survives our death, but one thing science tells us for sure
772 00:46:22,370 00:46:25,769 is that if there's anything that's immortal in our bodies, is that if there's anything that's immortal in our bodies,
773 00:46:25,770 00:46:27,676 it is our genes. it is our genes.
774 00:46:59,872 00:47:04,550 Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd