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1 | 00:00:12,552 | 00:00:15,319 | 'The novelist Aldous Huxley once wrote | 'The novelist Aldous Huxley once wrote |
2 | 00:00:15,320 | 00:00:17,629 | 'that most human beings behave as though | 'that most human beings behave as though |
3 | 00:00:17,638 | 00:00:21,750 | 'death were no more than an unfounded rumour. | 'death were no more than an unfounded rumour. |
4 | 00:00:25,476 | 00:00:30,150 | 'But what happens when you realise the rumour is true?' | 'But what happens when you realise the rumour is true?' |
5 | 00:00:31,743 | 00:00:33,410 | 'Let's face it, none of us, | 'Let's face it, none of us, |
6 | 00:00:33,419 | 00:00:36,840 | 'until it hits us in the face, think we're going to die. | 'until it hits us in the face, think we're going to die. |
7 | 00:00:36,920 | 00:00:39,743 | 'I can still sort of picture the consultant's room. | 'I can still sort of picture the consultant's room. |
8 | 00:00:39,781 | 00:00:42,467 | 'He said, "Well, I've got some bad news for you. | 'He said, "Well, I've got some bad news for you. |
9 | 00:00:42,486 | 00:00:45,880 | '"We think you've got motor neurone disease."' | '"We think you've got motor neurone disease."' |
10 | 00:00:46,130 | 00:00:50,000 | 'As we film this, Richard Chell has only months to live. | 'As we film this, Richard Chell has only months to live. |
11 | 00:00:50,640 | 00:00:53,359 | 'His comfort lies in his religious faith. | 'His comfort lies in his religious faith. |
12 | 00:00:53,360 | 00:00:57,360 | 'For him, death is not the end.' | 'For him, death is not the end.' |
13 | 00:00:57,690 | 00:00:59,936 | Death, to me, the actual process of dying, | Death, to me, the actual process of dying, |
14 | 00:01:00,056 | 00:01:01,538 | is not something I'm scared of... | is not something I'm scared of... |
15 | 00:01:01,561 | 00:01:03,800 | it's going through a door into another room. | it's going through a door into another room. |
16 | 00:01:03,920 | 00:01:05,199 | What do you mean by that? | What do you mean by that? |
17 | 00:01:05,200 | 00:01:07,910 | I'm a Christian and therefore I do believe in a life after death. | I'm a Christian and therefore I do believe in a life after death. |
18 | 00:01:08,426 | 00:01:12,240 | I do believe that this life is just part of a process, | I do believe that this life is just part of a process, |
19 | 00:01:12,360 | 00:01:14,437 | and that there's another part of that process to complete. | and that there's another part of that process to complete. |
20 | 00:01:14,871 | 00:01:18,559 | I know very well your feelings about on religion and the rest of it. | I know very well your feelings about on religion and the rest of it. |
21 | 00:01:18,560 | 00:01:20,279 | But I would say | But I would say |
22 | 00:01:20,280 | 00:01:22,719 | having a view that is finite | having a view that is finite |
23 | 00:01:22,720 | 00:01:25,017 | is a bit like having half a meal. | is a bit like having half a meal. |
24 | 00:01:25,760 | 00:01:27,653 | It will leave you hungry at the end of the day. | It will leave you hungry at the end of the day. |
25 | 00:01:27,920 | 00:01:29,999 | But, of course, the existence of hunger | But, of course, the existence of hunger |
26 | 00:01:30,000 | 00:01:32,200 | doesn't mean that there's food. | doesn't mean that there's food. |
27 | 00:01:32,450 | 00:01:34,353 | No, but it means that there's a need. | No, but it means that there's a need. |
28 | 00:01:34,361 | 00:01:36,839 | And I would argue that there is a food. | And I would argue that there is a food. |
29 | 00:01:36,840 | 00:01:39,120 | If you faced a situation where, | If you faced a situation where, |
30 | 00:01:39,437 | 00:01:41,159 | like myself, say, you were suddenly saying, | like myself, say, you were suddenly saying, |
31 | 00:01:41,160 | 00:01:44,796 | "Well, look. Death is fairly close and you're going to die." | "Well, look. Death is fairly close and you're going to die." |
32 | 00:01:45,120 | 00:01:48,039 | Do you think you would feel any differently? | Do you think you would feel any differently? |
33 | 00:01:48,545 | 00:01:51,528 | Or are you clear in your own mind, if that was the situation, | Or are you clear in your own mind, if that was the situation, |
34 | 00:01:51,855 | 00:01:54,390 | "I know exactly how I'd respond and exactly how I'd feel"? | "I know exactly how I'd respond and exactly how I'd feel"? |
35 | 00:01:59,032 | 00:02:00,769 | 'It is a fair question. | 'It is a fair question. |
36 | 00:02:01,119 | 00:02:04,670 | 'I follow reason and I don't believe in God. | 'I follow reason and I don't believe in God. |
37 | 00:02:06,133 | 00:02:09,680 | 'But this series is not about whether God exists or not. | 'But this series is not about whether God exists or not. |
38 | 00:02:10,400 | 00:02:12,840 | 'It's about a more difficult problem - | 'It's about a more difficult problem - |
39 | 00:02:13,686 | 00:02:16,960 | 'what, if anything, can take God's place? | 'what, if anything, can take God's place? |
40 | 00:02:18,661 | 00:02:21,518 | 'Religion has shaped our understanding of life | 'Religion has shaped our understanding of life |
41 | 00:02:21,533 | 00:02:23,710 | 'for thousands of years. | 'for thousands of years. |
42 | 00:02:24,720 | 00:02:26,880 | 'Ideas of the soul, | 'Ideas of the soul, |
43 | 00:02:28,105 | 00:02:29,881 | 'sin, | 'sin, |
44 | 00:02:30,849 | 00:02:33,639 | 'and the afterlife are hard to shake off, | 'and the afterlife are hard to shake off, |
45 | 00:02:33,640 | 00:02:36,310 | 'even for non-religious people like me. | 'even for non-religious people like me. |
46 | 00:02:37,760 | 00:02:40,763 | 'As more and more of us realise there is no God, | 'As more and more of us realise there is no God, |
47 | 00:02:40,816 | 00:02:44,790 | 'what happens as we leave religion behind?' | 'what happens as we leave religion behind?' |
48 | 00:02:46,146 | 00:02:48,720 | I have to believe there's a plan, | I have to believe there's a plan, |
49 | 00:02:48,840 | 00:02:51,639 | and that God is going to accomplish something through this. | and that God is going to accomplish something through this. |
50 | 00:02:51,770 | 00:02:54,599 | I suppose Jesus is an unpaid babysitter. | I suppose Jesus is an unpaid babysitter. |
51 | 00:02:54,600 | 00:02:56,919 | It's like, "If I'm not watching you, Jesus is." | It's like, "If I'm not watching you, Jesus is." |
52 | 00:02:57,457 | 00:03:00,920 | So do you think that we, in the West, are too materialistic? | So do you think that we, in the West, are too materialistic? |
53 | 00:03:01,210 | 00:03:02,005 | I think so. | I think so. |
54 | 00:03:03,480 | 00:03:05,520 | 'In this film, Death, | 'In this film, Death, |
55 | 00:03:06,658 | 00:03:09,399 | 'religion has traditionally been thought to bring comfort | 'religion has traditionally been thought to bring comfort |
56 | 00:03:09,519 | 00:03:11,191 | 'at the end of life. | 'at the end of life. |
57 | 00:03:12,170 | 00:03:14,430 | 'But does it really? | 'But does it really? |
58 | 00:03:16,174 | 00:03:19,950 | 'What can science and reason tell us?' | 'What can science and reason tell us?' |
59 | 00:03:22,068 | 00:03:25,590 | How does someone like me, who has no religion, face death? | How does someone like me, who has no religion, face death? |
60 | 00:03:49,918 | 00:03:52,680 | 'Varanasi, India - | 'Varanasi, India - |
61 | 00:03:52,930 | 00:03:55,910 | 'one of the oldest cities in the world. | 'one of the oldest cities in the world. |
62 | 00:03:59,261 | 00:04:02,760 | 'It has a macabre speciality. | 'It has a macabre speciality. |
63 | 00:04:03,280 | 00:04:06,138 | 'Its main business is the industry of death. | 'Its main business is the industry of death. |
64 | 00:04:12,736 | 00:04:16,321 | 'Every year, a million Hindu pilgrims visit Varanasi, | 'Every year, a million Hindu pilgrims visit Varanasi, |
65 | 00:04:16,322 | 00:04:18,798 | 'dragging with them some 40,000 corpses | 'dragging with them some 40,000 corpses |
66 | 00:04:19,403 | 00:04:22,840 | 'to be cremated on the banks of the Ganges.' | 'to be cremated on the banks of the Ganges.' |
67 | 00:04:29,543 | 00:04:33,262 | This the holiest place in the whole of Hinduism. | This the holiest place in the whole of Hinduism. |
68 | 00:04:33,382 | 00:04:37,333 | This is the place where Hindus aspire to come to die, | This is the place where Hindus aspire to come to die, |
69 | 00:04:37,560 | 00:04:41,560 | to escape from the cycle of birth and death and rebirth. | to escape from the cycle of birth and death and rebirth. |
70 | 00:04:42,208 | 00:04:43,770 | It is the most amazing scene. | It is the most amazing scene. |
71 | 00:04:43,785 | 00:04:47,662 | It's probably been going on like this for centuries, even millennia. | It's probably been going on like this for centuries, even millennia. |
72 | 00:04:48,705 | 00:04:51,070 | It looks as though there are ashes down here | It looks as though there are ashes down here |
73 | 00:04:51,517 | 00:04:53,870 | in the river, swirling around. | in the river, swirling around. |
74 | 00:05:04,027 | 00:05:07,159 | 'As an atheist for whom death is a full stop, | 'As an atheist for whom death is a full stop, |
75 | 00:05:07,160 | 00:05:10,919 | 'I suppose I shouldn't feel sentimental about the carcasses. | 'I suppose I shouldn't feel sentimental about the carcasses. |
76 | 00:05:11,039 | 00:05:14,350 | 'They are ex-people who have ceased to be. | 'They are ex-people who have ceased to be. |
77 | 00:05:24,560 | 00:05:28,334 | 'Yet I find something a little bit shocking here. | 'Yet I find something a little bit shocking here. |
78 | 00:05:28,568 | 00:05:30,707 | 'The partially-burnt corpses... | 'The partially-burnt corpses... |
79 | 00:05:33,160 | 00:05:35,004 | '..the locals casually searching | '..the locals casually searching |
80 | 00:05:35,027 | 00:05:38,480 | 'for precious metals in the burnt remains... | 'for precious metals in the burnt remains... |
81 | 00:05:41,359 | 00:05:44,640 | '..and the rejected dead.' | '..and the rejected dead.' |
82 | 00:05:48,706 | 00:05:51,706 | Although this is clearly steeped in religion, | Although this is clearly steeped in religion, |
83 | 00:05:52,003 | 00:05:56,710 | there's a surprising lack of evident reverence or solemnity. | there's a surprising lack of evident reverence or solemnity. |
84 | 00:05:57,214 | 00:05:59,744 | The people standing around the funeral pyres | The people standing around the funeral pyres |
85 | 00:05:59,759 | 00:06:03,630 | are doing the job of work in a pretty matter-of-fact way. | are doing the job of work in a pretty matter-of-fact way. |
86 | 00:06:05,933 | 00:06:10,000 | 'But there is a kind of logic behind the apparent lack of reverence. | 'But there is a kind of logic behind the apparent lack of reverence. |
87 | 00:06:12,761 | 00:06:17,040 | 'In this religious tradition, the flesh is no longer important. | 'In this religious tradition, the flesh is no longer important. |
88 | 00:06:17,290 | 00:06:21,578 | 'What matters here is releasing the spirit or soul. | 'What matters here is releasing the spirit or soul. |
89 | 00:06:25,350 | 00:06:28,640 | 'This is where religion plays its strongest card. | 'This is where religion plays its strongest card. |
90 | 00:06:28,760 | 00:06:32,760 | 'The body may not live for ever but the soul does. | 'The body may not live for ever but the soul does. |
91 | 00:06:35,280 | 00:06:38,172 | 'On the face of it, it's a comforting idea. | 'On the face of it, it's a comforting idea. |
92 | 00:06:38,497 | 00:06:41,342 | 'And a challenge for an atheist like me. | 'And a challenge for an atheist like me. |
93 | 00:06:53,003 | 00:06:56,112 | 'If you want to hear the challenge starkly expressed, | 'If you want to hear the challenge starkly expressed, |
94 | 00:06:56,320 | 00:07:00,320 | 'you can go to a place like this in Kansas City.' | 'you can go to a place like this in Kansas City.' |
95 | 00:07:02,712 | 00:07:04,592 | Hello, I'm Richard. | Hello, I'm Richard. |
96 | 00:07:06,120 | 00:07:09,399 | 'This Catholic hospice, Alexandra's House, | 'This Catholic hospice, Alexandra's House, |
97 | 00:07:09,400 | 00:07:13,400 | 'is for babies who die within hours of birth.' | 'is for babies who die within hours of birth.' |
98 | 00:07:14,200 | 00:07:16,289 | These are clearly fatal disorders. | These are clearly fatal disorders. |
99 | 00:07:16,317 | 00:07:18,519 | Babies perhaps with anencephaly, | Babies perhaps with anencephaly, |
100 | 00:07:18,520 | 00:07:21,639 | Potter's Syndrome, where they have no kidneys, | Potter's Syndrome, where they have no kidneys, |
101 | 00:07:21,640 | 00:07:23,890 | severe genetic heart disease. | severe genetic heart disease. |
102 | 00:07:24,010 | 00:07:25,479 | So, they're all going to die. | So, they're all going to die. |
103 | 00:07:25,480 | 00:07:26,659 | They're all going to die. | They're all going to die. |
104 | 00:07:26,660 | 00:07:28,959 | And so, the normal recommendation by the medical profession | And so, the normal recommendation by the medical profession |
105 | 00:07:28,960 | 00:07:31,319 | - ..would be probably be an abortion at that point, would it? - Yes. | - ..would be probably be an abortion at that point, would it? - Yes. |
106 | 00:07:32,960 | 00:07:36,320 | This may, you know, be hard for some people to see. | This may, you know, be hard for some people to see. |
107 | 00:07:36,570 | 00:07:39,039 | These are many of our babies for whom we've cared, | These are many of our babies for whom we've cared, |
108 | 00:07:39,040 | 00:07:42,279 | some who have lived here, but all of them that we've cared for. | some who have lived here, but all of them that we've cared for. |
109 | 00:07:42,280 | 00:07:46,280 | And so this is leading us up to where the families stay. | And so this is leading us up to where the families stay. |
110 | 00:07:48,320 | 00:07:49,919 | This is where the parents stay. | This is where the parents stay. |
111 | 00:07:49,920 | 00:07:52,319 | 'Over the last 11 years, Patti Lewis | 'Over the last 11 years, Patti Lewis |
112 | 00:07:52,548 | 00:07:56,039 | 'has helped the families of over 500 babies | 'has helped the families of over 500 babies |
113 | 00:07:56,159 | 00:07:59,080 | 'who have died within these walls.' | 'who have died within these walls.' |
114 | 00:07:59,475 | 00:08:02,720 | Do you think their mothers are ever going to meet their babies again? | Do you think their mothers are ever going to meet their babies again? |
115 | 00:08:02,840 | 00:08:04,199 | Yes. | Yes. |
116 | 00:08:04,538 | 00:08:05,879 | I think the mothers believe that, too, | I think the mothers believe that, too, |
117 | 00:08:05,880 | 00:08:09,880 | and the fathers and the siblings. | and the fathers and the siblings. |
118 | 00:08:13,880 | 00:08:16,519 | 'I do sympathise with the desire to meet again | 'I do sympathise with the desire to meet again |
119 | 00:08:16,520 | 00:08:18,799 | 'somebody whom you've known and loved. | 'somebody whom you've known and loved. |
120 | 00:08:18,919 | 00:08:20,519 | 'But a newborn baby? | 'But a newborn baby? |
121 | 00:08:21,468 | 00:08:23,799 | 'I feel very sorry for these parents, | 'I feel very sorry for these parents, |
122 | 00:08:23,800 | 00:08:26,199 | 'but still, reality may be raw. | 'but still, reality may be raw. |
123 | 00:08:26,200 | 00:08:28,656 | 'But we have to face it. | 'But we have to face it. |
124 | 00:08:30,120 | 00:08:32,390 | The baby was born on Saturday, | The baby was born on Saturday, |
125 | 00:08:33,091 | 00:08:34,448 | 7/9/11. | 7/9/11. |
126 | 00:08:34,610 | 00:08:36,319 | Which was yesterday. | Which was yesterday. |
127 | 00:08:36,320 | 00:08:37,230 | Yeah. | Yeah. |
128 | 00:08:39,080 | 00:08:40,999 | And she came into the world at 6pm | And she came into the world at 6pm |
129 | 00:08:41,000 | 00:08:42,959 | and she lived 30 minutes. | and she lived 30 minutes. |
130 | 00:08:42,960 | 00:08:46,960 | And those 30 minutes seemed so short and so precious. | And those 30 minutes seemed so short and so precious. |
131 | 00:08:48,280 | 00:08:50,870 | We held her and loved her and... | We held her and loved her and... |
132 | 00:08:51,520 | 00:08:55,520 | got to give her a little bath and put her in her christening outfit. | got to give her a little bath and put her in her christening outfit. |
133 | 00:08:56,080 | 00:08:57,920 | We baptised her. | We baptised her. |
134 | 00:08:58,480 | 00:09:02,229 | The family was there with us, and it was a very... | The family was there with us, and it was a very... |
135 | 00:09:02,670 | 00:09:04,050 | precious time. | precious time. |
136 | 00:09:04,667 | 00:09:07,093 | Can you talk us through when you first found out | Can you talk us through when you first found out |
137 | 00:09:07,213 | 00:09:10,810 | that there was a problem with the baby? | that there was a problem with the baby? |
138 | 00:09:11,434 | 00:09:15,855 | We found out in January that we were expecting and it would be our third. | We found out in January that we were expecting and it would be our third. |
139 | 00:09:16,114 | 00:09:18,439 | And we were overjoyed. And we go in for our ultrasound | And we were overjoyed. And we go in for our ultrasound |
140 | 00:09:18,440 | 00:09:20,455 | and find out if it was a boy or girl. | and find out if it was a boy or girl. |
141 | 00:09:20,880 | 00:09:22,845 | She did the scan and told us there was no kidneys. | She did the scan and told us there was no kidneys. |
142 | 00:09:22,860 | 00:09:24,215 | No kidneys? Right. | No kidneys? Right. |
143 | 00:09:24,505 | 00:09:27,920 | That was the first time that we had heard that diagnosis. | That was the first time that we had heard that diagnosis. |
144 | 00:09:28,040 | 00:09:30,999 | And she called it a "lethal pregnancy". | And she called it a "lethal pregnancy". |
145 | 00:09:31,119 | 00:09:33,759 | So, that's when you sort of went into shock, is it? | So, that's when you sort of went into shock, is it? |
146 | 00:09:33,760 | 00:09:35,159 | More so, yes. | More so, yes. |
147 | 00:09:35,160 | 00:09:39,310 | Did it occur to you that the total sum of suffering would be | Did it occur to you that the total sum of suffering would be |
148 | 00:09:39,674 | 00:09:43,609 | much less if you drew a line under it then and restarted you life? | much less if you drew a line under it then and restarted you life? |
149 | 00:09:43,650 | 00:09:45,951 | You've got to restart your life now. | You've got to restart your life now. |
150 | 00:09:46,680 | 00:09:50,680 | Why did you decide to go on for the remaining months? | Why did you decide to go on for the remaining months? |
151 | 00:09:51,440 | 00:09:55,440 | Well, there's hope in everything and God can do great things. | Well, there's hope in everything and God can do great things. |
152 | 00:09:55,452 | 00:09:57,486 | So, you were hoping for a miracle? | So, you were hoping for a miracle? |
153 | 00:09:57,517 | 00:09:59,479 | Hoping for a miracle, but if it wasn't, | Hoping for a miracle, but if it wasn't, |
154 | 00:09:59,480 | 00:10:02,799 | it was still going to be precious and it's a baby and it's a life. | it was still going to be precious and it's a baby and it's a life. |
155 | 00:10:02,800 | 00:10:06,800 | It's not my decision to terminate that. It's not my choice. | It's not my decision to terminate that. It's not my choice. |
156 | 00:10:08,124 | 00:10:12,337 | I carried it and loved it and can feel it move every single day and... | I carried it and loved it and can feel it move every single day and... |
157 | 00:10:13,040 | 00:10:17,040 | And also the 30 minutes or so that we got to spend with her was worth, | And also the 30 minutes or so that we got to spend with her was worth, |
158 | 00:10:17,280 | 00:10:21,119 | I didn't have any of the pain, but I would say it was worth | I didn't have any of the pain, but I would say it was worth |
159 | 00:10:21,120 | 00:10:24,919 | all of the trial of getting to where we were. | all of the trial of getting to where we were. |
160 | 00:10:25,170 | 00:10:27,315 | And not only did we get to spend 30 minutes with her | And not only did we get to spend 30 minutes with her |
161 | 00:10:27,435 | 00:10:29,879 | we got to be with her for, like, 12 hours, | we got to be with her for, like, 12 hours, |
162 | 00:10:29,999 | 00:10:33,880 | she wasn't with us spiritually, but we got to hold her. | she wasn't with us spiritually, but we got to hold her. |
163 | 00:10:34,132 | 00:10:35,799 | And you took photographs? | And you took photographs? |
164 | 00:10:35,800 | 00:10:37,719 | Oh, yes. | Oh, yes. |
165 | 00:10:37,839 | 00:10:40,159 | We have one that we have printed off. | We have one that we have printed off. |
166 | 00:10:41,148 | 00:10:43,119 | She was beautiful, she was perfect and everything... | She was beautiful, she was perfect and everything... |
167 | 00:10:43,120 | 00:10:46,079 | She looked just like her mom even down to her fingernails. | She looked just like her mom even down to her fingernails. |
168 | 00:10:46,199 | 00:10:47,788 | Yes, beautiful. | Yes, beautiful. |
169 | 00:10:48,879 | 00:10:51,319 | I wouldn't have changed it for anything. | I wouldn't have changed it for anything. |
170 | 00:10:51,439 | 00:10:53,959 | Do you think you will ever meet the baby? | Do you think you will ever meet the baby? |
171 | 00:10:54,079 | 00:10:55,829 | Oh, of course!... | Oh, of course!... |
172 | 00:10:56,858 | 00:10:58,130 | .. there is great hope in that. | .. there is great hope in that. |
173 | 00:10:58,138 | 00:11:01,390 | We will meet the baby, it's in heaven with God. | We will meet the baby, it's in heaven with God. |
174 | 00:11:08,640 | 00:11:11,079 | 'I feel for Runae and Lee. | 'I feel for Runae and Lee. |
175 | 00:11:11,439 | 00:11:13,879 | 'They sincerely think they are gaining reassurance | 'They sincerely think they are gaining reassurance |
176 | 00:11:13,880 | 00:11:15,560 | 'from their faith. | 'from their faith. |
177 | 00:11:21,135 | 00:11:24,388 | 'So now, I need to understand how this relationship | 'So now, I need to understand how this relationship |
178 | 00:11:24,403 | 00:11:28,590 | between death and religion has evolved to be so strong. | between death and religion has evolved to be so strong. |
179 | 00:11:44,113 | 00:11:46,247 | Religion denies death is real. | Religion denies death is real. |
180 | 00:11:47,420 | 00:11:50,787 | It sets up, instead, the forbidding prospect of eternity | It sets up, instead, the forbidding prospect of eternity |
181 | 00:11:51,098 | 00:11:53,149 | either in heaven, or worse, in hell. | either in heaven, or worse, in hell. |
182 | 00:11:54,538 | 00:11:58,257 | For me, what's frightening is not death itself but eternity, | For me, what's frightening is not death itself but eternity, |
183 | 00:11:58,453 | 00:12:00,067 | whether you're there or not. | whether you're there or not. |
184 | 00:12:00,524 | 00:12:04,554 | Yet people still reach instinctively for religion and its rituals | Yet people still reach instinctively for religion and its rituals |
185 | 00:12:04,592 | 00:12:06,316 | when it comes to the end. | when it comes to the end. |
186 | 00:12:06,436 | 00:12:07,463 | Why? | Why? |
187 | 00:12:10,861 | 00:12:13,387 | It's a very, very artificial situation. | It's a very, very artificial situation. |
188 | 00:12:13,507 | 00:12:15,936 | We see the person lying down. | We see the person lying down. |
189 | 00:12:16,454 | 00:12:18,579 | Unless you're intimately acquainted with someone, | Unless you're intimately acquainted with someone, |
190 | 00:12:18,593 | 00:12:20,825 | you don't really see them lying down | you don't really see them lying down |
191 | 00:12:20,848 | 00:12:23,027 | and they may well be dressed in their own clothes | and they may well be dressed in their own clothes |
192 | 00:12:23,028 | 00:12:25,286 | lying down with their eyes closed | lying down with their eyes closed |
193 | 00:12:25,310 | 00:12:28,987 | in an artificial situation that they're inside a wooden box. | in an artificial situation that they're inside a wooden box. |
194 | 00:12:28,988 | 00:12:32,661 | Now, all of these things bring a surrealism, | Now, all of these things bring a surrealism, |
195 | 00:12:32,781 | 00:12:36,423 | but despite that, people are very, very focused | but despite that, people are very, very focused |
196 | 00:12:36,543 | 00:12:41,126 | on the fact that the last physical connection they have with that person | on the fact that the last physical connection they have with that person |
197 | 00:12:41,246 | 00:12:44,560 | is lying in that coffin, and that's what they're saying farewell to. | is lying in that coffin, and that's what they're saying farewell to. |
198 | 00:12:47,196 | 00:12:51,739 | So why do people go on with these strange rituals? | So why do people go on with these strange rituals? |
199 | 00:12:53,323 | 00:12:58,010 | It's the business of walking away from the funeral and feeling, | It's the business of walking away from the funeral and feeling, |
200 | 00:12:58,130 | 00:13:01,949 | "That was well done, we liked what they've done for us | "That was well done, we liked what they've done for us |
201 | 00:13:02,069 | 00:13:06,383 | "and we feel that we laid someone we cared about very deeply to rest | "and we feel that we laid someone we cared about very deeply to rest |
202 | 00:13:06,503 | 00:13:08,867 | "in a very dignified and meaningful way." | "in a very dignified and meaningful way." |
203 | 00:13:08,868 | 00:13:13,467 | And even if the beautiful oak coffin is then burned or buried, | And even if the beautiful oak coffin is then burned or buried, |
204 | 00:13:13,587 | 00:13:16,587 | somehow you feel you've given the person a good send-off. | somehow you feel you've given the person a good send-off. |
205 | 00:13:16,707 | 00:13:18,052 | Very much so. | Very much so. |
206 | 00:13:24,909 | 00:13:27,904 | More and more of us have no faith in God | More and more of us have no faith in God |
207 | 00:13:27,950 | 00:13:30,693 | but we cling to the rituals. | but we cling to the rituals. |
208 | 00:13:31,965 | 00:13:34,998 | Even in secular woodland burial sites, | Even in secular woodland burial sites, |
209 | 00:13:35,188 | 00:13:39,188 | we find death brings illogical superstition. | we find death brings illogical superstition. |
210 | 00:13:41,020 | 00:13:43,709 | It is fascinating to see people... | It is fascinating to see people... |
211 | 00:13:43,829 | 00:13:46,874 | thinking of themselves as part of this place. | thinking of themselves as part of this place. |
212 | 00:13:47,125 | 00:13:50,267 | They're anticipating their postmortem identity. | They're anticipating their postmortem identity. |
213 | 00:13:50,615 | 00:13:52,702 | So that when people talk about, | So that when people talk about, |
214 | 00:13:52,749 | 00:13:55,424 | as they can in this place, facing any direction, | as they can in this place, facing any direction, |
215 | 00:13:55,544 | 00:13:57,827 | so some want to look up the hill, some want to look down the hill, | so some want to look up the hill, some want to look down the hill, |
216 | 00:13:58,226 | 00:14:00,054 | some want to look towards the sun, | some want to look towards the sun, |
217 | 00:14:00,070 | 00:14:03,183 | they are buried in different spatial directions. | they are buried in different spatial directions. |
218 | 00:14:04,263 | 00:14:06,884 | 'Douglas Davies is an anthropologist | 'Douglas Davies is an anthropologist |
219 | 00:14:06,892 | 00:14:10,228 | 'fascinated by the fuss and trappings surrounding death.' | 'fascinated by the fuss and trappings surrounding death.' |
220 | 00:14:11,291 | 00:14:12,921 | Do you think a part of what's going on | Do you think a part of what's going on |
221 | 00:14:12,929 | 00:14:16,010 | is a reluctance to believe that the dead person is really dead? | is a reluctance to believe that the dead person is really dead? |
222 | 00:14:16,039 | 00:14:19,978 | Yes. One lady, her father used to farm around here. | Yes. One lady, her father used to farm around here. |
223 | 00:14:20,367 | 00:14:23,648 | And so he's been buried looking up towards the hill, | And so he's been buried looking up towards the hill, |
224 | 00:14:24,113 | 00:14:26,510 | cos he used to shoot rabbits up there and the like, | cos he used to shoot rabbits up there and the like, |
225 | 00:14:26,630 | 00:14:29,585 | and to her, this is dreadfully important because... | and to her, this is dreadfully important because... |
226 | 00:14:29,705 | 00:14:33,471 | the relatives, too, are thinking about their dead after they've died. | the relatives, too, are thinking about their dead after they've died. |
227 | 00:14:33,487 | 00:14:34,280 | Yes. | Yes. |
228 | 00:14:35,348 | 00:14:38,950 | 'I find I'm not immune to these notions.' | 'I find I'm not immune to these notions.' |
229 | 00:14:39,308 | 00:14:43,721 | There's a place in Cornwall where my mother's family come from | There's a place in Cornwall where my mother's family come from |
230 | 00:14:43,841 | 00:14:47,546 | and where we used to spend childhood holidays called Dollar Cove. | and where we used to spend childhood holidays called Dollar Cove. |
231 | 00:14:47,666 | 00:14:50,942 | And I think I'm right in saying there's a little tiny church | And I think I'm right in saying there's a little tiny church |
232 | 00:14:51,849 | 00:14:55,057 | more or less on the beach, more or less built in the sand, | more or less on the beach, more or less built in the sand, |
233 | 00:14:55,177 | 00:14:57,747 | and I've sometimes fantasised about being buried there | and I've sometimes fantasised about being buried there |
234 | 00:14:57,748 | 00:15:00,987 | somehow with the sea crashing in and the tide coming in and out. | somehow with the sea crashing in and the tide coming in and out. |
235 | 00:15:01,107 | 00:15:04,468 | What is the allure that would be there for you | What is the allure that would be there for you |
236 | 00:15:04,484 | 00:15:05,896 | in a location for your body? | in a location for your body? |
237 | 00:15:05,911 | 00:15:08,936 | Yeah. It's totally illogical. It's pure sentimentality. | Yeah. It's totally illogical. It's pure sentimentality. |
238 | 00:15:09,743 | 00:15:13,400 | I suppose there's no rational defence for it whatever. | I suppose there's no rational defence for it whatever. |
239 | 00:15:13,439 | 00:15:14,525 | One should say, | One should say, |
240 | 00:15:14,548 | 00:15:17,459 | "Just stick me in a dustbin bag and throw me away." | "Just stick me in a dustbin bag and throw me away." |
241 | 00:15:17,482 | 00:15:18,679 | But you don't want to be in a dustbin bag? | But you don't want to be in a dustbin bag? |
242 | 00:15:18,687 | 00:15:20,866 | No, that's right, and it is pure sentiment. | No, that's right, and it is pure sentiment. |
243 | 00:15:20,881 | 00:15:22,661 | I mean, we are sentimental animals... | I mean, we are sentimental animals... |
244 | 00:15:22,669 | 00:15:23,857 | Yes, absolutely. | Yes, absolutely. |
245 | 00:15:23,873 | 00:15:25,783 | ..as well as social animals. | ..as well as social animals. |
246 | 00:15:28,740 | 00:15:31,113 | So why do even atheists like me | So why do even atheists like me |
247 | 00:15:31,144 | 00:15:33,952 | carry around this sentimental baggage? | carry around this sentimental baggage? |
248 | 00:15:38,546 | 00:15:42,383 | When did these illogical thoughts first develop? | When did these illogical thoughts first develop? |
249 | 00:15:47,596 | 00:15:50,072 | As a child, I don't think I worried about | As a child, I don't think I worried about |
250 | 00:15:50,117 | 00:15:51,527 | God looking down at me | God looking down at me |
251 | 00:15:51,542 | 00:15:52,981 | and seeing what I was doing. | and seeing what I was doing. |
252 | 00:15:53,012 | 00:15:54,223 | I worried about ancestors. | I worried about ancestors. |
253 | 00:15:54,236 | 00:15:56,987 | I worried about my great uncles and great aunts | I worried about my great uncles and great aunts |
254 | 00:15:56,988 | 00:16:00,988 | looking down from heaven and seeing everything that I did. | looking down from heaven and seeing everything that I did. |
255 | 00:16:01,594 | 00:16:05,876 | Childish, perhaps, but don't let's be too quick to dismiss it. | Childish, perhaps, but don't let's be too quick to dismiss it. |
256 | 00:16:06,948 | 00:16:08,347 | Hello, Iggy. Whoops. | Hello, Iggy. Whoops. |
257 | 00:16:08,348 | 00:16:09,347 | CHILD LAUGHS | CHILD LAUGHS |
258 | 00:16:09,467 | 00:16:11,147 | He doesn't want to come out and play. | He doesn't want to come out and play. |
259 | 00:16:11,538 | 00:16:13,387 | (OK, OK, there we go...) | (OK, OK, there we go...) |
260 | 00:16:13,507 | 00:16:15,722 | From an early age, we start to believe | From an early age, we start to believe |
261 | 00:16:15,883 | 00:16:18,800 | that there's more to us than just our physical bodies, | that there's more to us than just our physical bodies, |
262 | 00:16:19,908 | 00:16:22,070 | as this experiment reveals. | as this experiment reveals. |
263 | 00:16:22,435 | 00:16:24,507 | Shall we give him a little tickle? | Shall we give him a little tickle? |
264 | 00:16:24,905 | 00:16:27,070 | He's very sweet, isn't he? | He's very sweet, isn't he? |
265 | 00:16:27,618 | 00:16:29,461 | This is a fake machine | This is a fake machine |
266 | 00:16:29,926 | 00:16:33,433 | to fool children into thinking live beings can be duplicated. | to fool children into thinking live beings can be duplicated. |
267 | 00:16:33,553 | 00:16:34,743 | MACHINE BUZZES | MACHINE BUZZES |
268 | 00:16:36,673 | 00:16:37,960 | There's Iggy. | There's Iggy. |
269 | 00:16:40,588 | 00:16:42,103 | And there's Iggy. | And there's Iggy. |
270 | 00:16:43,964 | 00:16:46,507 | As scientists, we seem to be committed to the view | As scientists, we seem to be committed to the view |
271 | 00:16:46,508 | 00:16:49,787 | that if you could take a person and make an exact copy, | that if you could take a person and make an exact copy, |
272 | 00:16:49,788 | 00:16:51,547 | molecule by molecule, | molecule by molecule, |
273 | 00:16:51,882 | 00:16:55,522 | that copy would have exactly the same thoughts and memories, | that copy would have exactly the same thoughts and memories, |
274 | 00:16:55,575 | 00:16:57,891 | would be the same person. | would be the same person. |
275 | 00:16:58,196 | 00:17:00,450 | But intuition rebels. | But intuition rebels. |
276 | 00:17:00,570 | 00:17:04,425 | We seem to want to believe that there's some essence of ourselves, | We seem to want to believe that there's some essence of ourselves, |
277 | 00:17:04,441 | 00:17:08,252 | something that would not go across with all those molecules, | something that would not go across with all those molecules, |
278 | 00:17:08,290 | 00:17:12,549 | something that a religious person might want to call a soul. | something that a religious person might want to call a soul. |
279 | 00:17:16,022 | 00:17:19,885 | This is an attempt to look at an old philosophical problem, | This is an attempt to look at an old philosophical problem, |
280 | 00:17:19,907 | 00:17:22,507 | which is, imagine if you could copy anything, | which is, imagine if you could copy anything, |
281 | 00:17:22,955 | 00:17:26,618 | and in these experiments, rather than getting children to imagine it, | and in these experiments, rather than getting children to imagine it, |
282 | 00:17:27,508 | 00:17:28,747 | we produce a machine | we produce a machine |
283 | 00:17:28,867 | 00:17:31,903 | which looks as if it can duplicate and copy anything, | which looks as if it can duplicate and copy anything, |
284 | 00:17:32,515 | 00:17:35,063 | a bit like a photocopier for objects. | a bit like a photocopier for objects. |
285 | 00:17:36,708 | 00:17:38,147 | Now there's two. | Now there's two. |
286 | 00:17:38,148 | 00:17:39,947 | It made two. | It made two. |
287 | 00:17:39,948 | 00:17:41,227 | It made two. | It made two. |
288 | 00:17:41,347 | 00:17:44,347 | We've shown in previous studies they can believe it can copy toys | We've shown in previous studies they can believe it can copy toys |
289 | 00:17:44,362 | 00:17:47,987 | very easily, but the question is, would they really extend that | very easily, but the question is, would they really extend that |
290 | 00:17:47,988 | 00:17:50,307 | to something like a living thing, like a hamster? | to something like a living thing, like a hamster? |
291 | 00:17:50,758 | 00:17:54,539 | Shall we tell him your name? Do you want to whisper? | Shall we tell him your name? Do you want to whisper? |
292 | 00:17:54,760 | 00:17:57,827 | And so what copies over is the body of the hamster, | And so what copies over is the body of the hamster, |
293 | 00:17:57,828 | 00:18:00,627 | the ideas of a hamster, the memories of the hamster? | the ideas of a hamster, the memories of the hamster? |
294 | 00:18:01,138 | 00:18:04,628 | We believe the intuition is that the physical object can be copied, | We believe the intuition is that the physical object can be copied, |
295 | 00:18:04,748 | 00:18:06,987 | and therefore the physical body can be copied, | and therefore the physical body can be copied, |
296 | 00:18:06,988 | 00:18:10,107 | but we're not so sure that children think the mind can be copied. | but we're not so sure that children think the mind can be copied. |
297 | 00:18:10,108 | 00:18:12,875 | Just like adults, they have this sense that maybe the mind | Just like adults, they have this sense that maybe the mind |
298 | 00:18:12,876 | 00:18:14,316 | is different to the physical body. | is different to the physical body. |
299 | 00:18:14,331 | 00:18:17,942 | The reason this is so interesting is because if you believe the mind | The reason this is so interesting is because if you believe the mind |
300 | 00:18:17,950 | 00:18:19,855 | is separate to the physical body, | is separate to the physical body, |
301 | 00:18:19,975 | 00:18:21,680 | then it means if the body goes, | then it means if the body goes, |
302 | 00:18:21,800 | 00:18:24,187 | then maybe the mind can stay on and exist. | then maybe the mind can stay on and exist. |
303 | 00:18:24,188 | 00:18:28,676 | And this allows for all sorts of notions of spirits and the soul, | And this allows for all sorts of notions of spirits and the soul, |
304 | 00:18:28,689 | 00:18:32,019 | as being something entirely untethered to the physical world. | as being something entirely untethered to the physical world. |
305 | 00:18:32,041 | 00:18:34,547 | Yes, disembodied ghosts after death | Yes, disembodied ghosts after death |
306 | 00:18:34,548 | 00:18:38,223 | or surviving death in other ways, the soul goes on. | or surviving death in other ways, the soul goes on. |
307 | 00:18:39,908 | 00:18:44,325 | So these young children believe bodies can be copied but not minds. | So these young children believe bodies can be copied but not minds. |
308 | 00:18:44,356 | 00:18:45,988 | Shall we have a look? | Shall we have a look? |
309 | 00:18:46,108 | 00:18:47,048 | One... | One... |
310 | 00:18:48,788 | 00:18:50,267 | Two. Two. | Two. Two. |
311 | 00:18:51,193 | 00:18:53,380 | They are already thinking there's something | They are already thinking there's something |
312 | 00:18:53,628 | 00:18:56,130 | in charge of each being that is unique. | in charge of each being that is unique. |
313 | 00:18:56,250 | 00:18:58,571 | Something like a soul? | Something like a soul? |
314 | 00:18:59,752 | 00:19:01,547 | Did this hamster see your picture? | Did this hamster see your picture? |
315 | 00:19:01,548 | 00:19:02,507 | (Yes.) | (Yes.) |
316 | 00:19:02,508 | 00:19:04,147 | (Yes.) Does it know what your picture is? | (Yes.) Does it know what your picture is? |
317 | 00:19:04,267 | 00:19:05,548 | (No.) | (No.) |
318 | 00:19:05,803 | 00:19:09,388 | Does this hamster know your name? | Does this hamster know your name? |
319 | 00:19:09,699 | 00:19:11,597 | Does this hamster know your name? | Does this hamster know your name? |
320 | 00:19:11,717 | 00:19:13,028 | (No.) | (No.) |
321 | 00:19:13,928 | 00:19:16,589 | Evolutionary psychology suggests | Evolutionary psychology suggests |
322 | 00:19:16,612 | 00:19:20,107 | that we have evolved a sense of separate mind or soul | that we have evolved a sense of separate mind or soul |
323 | 00:19:20,581 | 00:19:23,042 | because it's useful to us. | because it's useful to us. |
324 | 00:19:24,143 | 00:19:26,520 | Because the experience of being in control of your body | Because the experience of being in control of your body |
325 | 00:19:26,543 | 00:19:29,935 | is so pervasive, you just feel that you've made a decision, | is so pervasive, you just feel that you've made a decision, |
326 | 00:19:29,950 | 00:19:31,725 | you'll have a cup of coffee, these things... | you'll have a cup of coffee, these things... |
327 | 00:19:31,733 | 00:19:33,937 | you feel like you're driving this very complex machine. | you feel like you're driving this very complex machine. |
328 | 00:19:33,945 | 00:19:34,920 | Yes, you certainly do. | Yes, you certainly do. |
329 | 00:19:34,943 | 00:19:37,707 | If you didn't feel that you wouldn't be very well adapted to the world. | If you didn't feel that you wouldn't be very well adapted to the world. |
330 | 00:19:37,708 | 00:19:38,494 | No, that's right. | No, that's right. |
331 | 00:19:38,517 | 00:19:40,536 | I mean, to be a fully functional animal, | I mean, to be a fully functional animal, |
332 | 00:19:40,567 | 00:19:43,107 | which is what our ancestors were, | which is what our ancestors were, |
333 | 00:19:43,769 | 00:19:46,988 | hunting and feeding and running and escaping from predators, | hunting and feeding and running and escaping from predators, |
334 | 00:19:47,203 | 00:19:50,947 | you need to feel like a soul that's in control of the body. | you need to feel like a soul that's in control of the body. |
335 | 00:20:02,784 | 00:20:05,900 | This is one reason why it's so hard to shake off | This is one reason why it's so hard to shake off |
336 | 00:20:05,913 | 00:20:08,294 | the religious way of death. | the religious way of death. |
337 | 00:20:08,748 | 00:20:12,748 | We are programmed to believe in something like a soul. | We are programmed to believe in something like a soul. |
338 | 00:20:14,883 | 00:20:17,810 | Now, of course, I don't believe in a soul | Now, of course, I don't believe in a soul |
339 | 00:20:17,930 | 00:20:21,417 | but I, too, have the feeling that there is some sort of essence | but I, too, have the feeling that there is some sort of essence |
340 | 00:20:21,440 | 00:20:24,867 | of Richard Dawkins that makes me who I am... | of Richard Dawkins that makes me who I am... |
341 | 00:20:24,987 | 00:20:28,703 | ..that gives me my unique personal identity. | ..that gives me my unique personal identity. |
342 | 00:20:31,797 | 00:20:33,907 | 'To understand more about this, | 'To understand more about this, |
343 | 00:20:33,908 | 00:20:36,957 | I need to look at the role our memories play, | I need to look at the role our memories play, |
344 | 00:20:37,077 | 00:20:39,347 | with the person who's known me longest ? | with the person who's known me longest ? |
345 | 00:20:39,796 | 00:20:42,263 | my mother. | my mother. |
346 | 00:20:43,651 | 00:20:46,243 | So what have we got here? We've got, um... | So what have we got here? We've got, um... |
347 | 00:20:46,273 | 00:20:47,423 | Your first birthday party. | Your first birthday party. |
348 | 00:20:47,439 | 00:20:49,027 | First birthday party. Yes. | First birthday party. Yes. |
349 | 00:20:49,268 | 00:20:51,219 | Well, I've no memory of this at all. | Well, I've no memory of this at all. |
350 | 00:20:51,798 | 00:20:53,413 | That's presumably me, is it? | That's presumably me, is it? |
351 | 00:20:53,603 | 00:20:55,027 | Yes, that's you. | Yes, that's you. |
352 | 00:20:55,147 | 00:20:59,028 | In a little dress that your granny sent out from England. | In a little dress that your granny sent out from England. |
353 | 00:20:59,920 | 00:21:04,183 | 'Our memories are hugely important to our sense of who we are.' | 'Our memories are hugely important to our sense of who we are.' |
354 | 00:21:06,643 | 00:21:08,067 | That's Kilimanjaro. | That's Kilimanjaro. |
355 | 00:21:08,535 | 00:21:09,771 | Oh, yes. | Oh, yes. |
356 | 00:21:10,152 | 00:21:12,827 | You used to like saying words like Kilimanjaro. | You used to like saying words like Kilimanjaro. |
357 | 00:21:13,116 | 00:21:14,027 | Oh, right. | Oh, right. |
358 | 00:21:15,287 | 00:21:19,097 | But our memories lull us into a false sense of certainty. | But our memories lull us into a false sense of certainty. |
359 | 00:21:19,843 | 00:21:23,343 | They are fallible, riddled with errors. | They are fallible, riddled with errors. |
360 | 00:21:24,706 | 00:21:28,751 | - Another early memory was being stung by a scorpion. - Yes. | - Another early memory was being stung by a scorpion. - Yes. |
361 | 00:21:28,788 | 00:21:32,121 | We were miles, absolutely miles from anywhere, | We were miles, absolutely miles from anywhere, |
362 | 00:21:32,241 | 00:21:36,508 | and you suddenly jumped off your chair without your shoes on, | and you suddenly jumped off your chair without your shoes on, |
363 | 00:21:36,628 | 00:21:38,907 | which you weren't allowed to do, | which you weren't allowed to do, |
364 | 00:21:39,241 | 00:21:41,778 | and stepped on a scorpion... | and stepped on a scorpion... |
365 | 00:21:42,348 | 00:21:44,503 | ..and Ali, | ..and Ali, |
366 | 00:21:44,747 | 00:21:47,108 | our African boy, | our African boy, |
367 | 00:21:47,742 | 00:21:50,738 | rushed in and got your foot and... | rushed in and got your foot and... |
368 | 00:21:50,858 | 00:21:52,825 | squeezed it and sucked it... | squeezed it and sucked it... |
369 | 00:21:52,848 | 00:21:54,799 | - Gosh! Good for Ali. - ..sucked it for hours. | - Gosh! Good for Ali. - ..sucked it for hours. |
370 | 00:21:54,814 | 00:21:56,787 | - Yes. - Well, not hours but... | - Yes. - Well, not hours but... |
371 | 00:21:56,978 | 00:22:00,975 | And you were screaming. We had to hold you while he sucked your foot... | And you were screaming. We had to hold you while he sucked your foot... |
372 | 00:22:01,013 | 00:22:04,387 | Yes. I... My memory is slightly different. | Yes. I... My memory is slightly different. |
373 | 00:22:04,388 | 00:22:07,245 | My memory is that I was walking along the floor | My memory is that I was walking along the floor |
374 | 00:22:07,260 | 00:22:10,764 | - ..and I saw this creature walking across... - Yes. | - ..and I saw this creature walking across... - Yes. |
375 | 00:22:10,779 | 00:22:12,347 | ..and I thought it was a lizard. | ..and I thought it was a lizard. |
376 | 00:22:12,467 | 00:22:13,387 | Really? | Really? |
377 | 00:22:13,388 | 00:22:14,589 | And I didn't step on it, | And I didn't step on it, |
378 | 00:22:14,604 | 00:22:18,347 | I put my foot in the way of it to let it crawl over my foot. | I put my foot in the way of it to let it crawl over my foot. |
379 | 00:22:18,644 | 00:22:20,814 | Well...you jumped off your chair... | Well...you jumped off your chair... |
380 | 00:22:20,829 | 00:22:22,907 | Mmm. I don't remember the pain. | Mmm. I don't remember the pain. |
381 | 00:22:23,298 | 00:22:27,496 | Don't you? Isn't that interesting? Cos that was the terrible bit. | Don't you? Isn't that interesting? Cos that was the terrible bit. |
382 | 00:22:29,004 | 00:22:33,121 | We think back to our first memory, our first big adventure, | We think back to our first memory, our first big adventure, |
383 | 00:22:33,241 | 00:22:35,987 | and it's almost as though there was a movie camera in our head | and it's almost as though there was a movie camera in our head |
384 | 00:22:35,988 | 00:22:37,867 | recording every detail. | recording every detail. |
385 | 00:22:38,085 | 00:22:40,822 | But that's not the way it is. That's an illusion. | But that's not the way it is. That's an illusion. |
386 | 00:22:40,942 | 00:22:44,854 | What we're remembering is a memory of a memory of a memory, | What we're remembering is a memory of a memory of a memory, |
387 | 00:22:44,974 | 00:22:47,218 | of perhaps the real thing. | of perhaps the real thing. |
388 | 00:22:47,675 | 00:22:50,106 | A man may wear a wrist watch when he's 20 | A man may wear a wrist watch when he's 20 |
389 | 00:22:50,113 | 00:22:52,045 | and the same watch when he's 50. | and the same watch when he's 50. |
390 | 00:22:52,076 | 00:22:55,192 | It's the same watch but it's not the same man inside. | It's the same watch but it's not the same man inside. |
391 | 00:22:55,512 | 00:22:59,622 | Every atom in his body has changed, has turned over. | Every atom in his body has changed, has turned over. |
392 | 00:22:59,742 | 00:23:02,467 | I'm not the child I once was. | I'm not the child I once was. |
393 | 00:23:02,587 | 00:23:05,583 | The child I once was is dead. | The child I once was is dead. |
394 | 00:23:10,578 | 00:23:14,341 | So the physical cells that once made me are long gone | So the physical cells that once made me are long gone |
395 | 00:23:14,764 | 00:23:17,538 | and my memories are more tenuous than I would wish. | and my memories are more tenuous than I would wish. |
396 | 00:23:19,808 | 00:23:23,543 | The connection between younger and older Richard Dawkins | The connection between younger and older Richard Dawkins |
397 | 00:23:23,663 | 00:23:26,474 | isn't as strong as I might like it to be. | isn't as strong as I might like it to be. |
398 | 00:23:28,379 | 00:23:30,284 | And I think this is why | And I think this is why |
399 | 00:23:30,291 | 00:23:32,843 | the religious idea of something permanent, | the religious idea of something permanent, |
400 | 00:23:33,148 | 00:23:35,639 | the soul, is so plausible. | the soul, is so plausible. |
401 | 00:23:37,247 | 00:23:41,263 | Now I want to explore the reality of why we die. | Now I want to explore the reality of why we die. |
402 | 00:23:57,137 | 00:24:00,573 | Religion still dominates our thinking about death. | Religion still dominates our thinking about death. |
403 | 00:24:01,591 | 00:24:04,943 | If we get rid of God, what's left? | If we get rid of God, what's left? |
404 | 00:24:07,041 | 00:24:10,066 | I'm on a voyage to tell you the extraordinary truth | I'm on a voyage to tell you the extraordinary truth |
405 | 00:24:10,089 | 00:24:13,623 | that science reveals about death. | that science reveals about death. |
406 | 00:24:19,031 | 00:24:21,145 | According to evolutionary science, | According to evolutionary science, |
407 | 00:24:21,146 | 00:24:24,065 | death is not something to be overcome at all. | death is not something to be overcome at all. |
408 | 00:24:24,066 | 00:24:26,823 | It's a necessary part of the picture. | It's a necessary part of the picture. |
409 | 00:24:30,490 | 00:24:32,280 | I'm joining the scientists on board | I'm joining the scientists on board |
410 | 00:24:32,600 | 00:24:36,346 | Bangor University's research vessel on the Irish Sea. | Bangor University's research vessel on the Irish Sea. |
411 | 00:24:36,366 | 00:24:38,048 | - Is that alive? - Yeah, yeah. | - Is that alive? - Yeah, yeah. |
412 | 00:24:38,168 | 00:24:39,106 | So where do you put that? | So where do you put that? |
413 | 00:24:39,122 | 00:24:42,023 | 'They are studying the lifespan of a species of clam | 'They are studying the lifespan of a species of clam |
414 | 00:24:42,143 | 00:24:44,362 | 'called Arctica Islandica. | 'called Arctica Islandica. |
415 | 00:24:44,583 | 00:24:46,252 | They may look rather ordinary | They may look rather ordinary |
416 | 00:24:46,410 | 00:24:50,583 | 'but they have one attribute that is really quite amazing. | 'but they have one attribute that is really quite amazing. |
417 | 00:24:51,427 | 00:24:55,679 | 'These clams are among the longest-living animals on Earth.' | 'These clams are among the longest-living animals on Earth.' |
418 | 00:24:59,357 | 00:25:01,696 | Save that one or not? | Save that one or not? |
419 | 00:25:03,593 | 00:25:05,303 | The reason why we are so interested in this | The reason why we are so interested in this |
420 | 00:25:05,423 | 00:25:07,357 | is that this is a very long-lived species. | is that this is a very long-lived species. |
421 | 00:25:07,415 | 00:25:09,146 | We can pull it up from the wild | We can pull it up from the wild |
422 | 00:25:09,160 | 00:25:13,343 | and assign a year - almost to within one year - how old it is. | and assign a year - almost to within one year - how old it is. |
423 | 00:25:13,666 | 00:25:16,899 | Basically, the shell grows in incremental steps. | Basically, the shell grows in incremental steps. |
424 | 00:25:17,019 | 00:25:18,503 | Each ring is an annual ring, | Each ring is an annual ring, |
425 | 00:25:18,623 | 00:25:20,983 | so the growth is very much like a tree. | so the growth is very much like a tree. |
426 | 00:25:21,210 | 00:25:22,981 | Can you guess from this one how old is it? | Can you guess from this one how old is it? |
427 | 00:25:23,101 | 00:25:24,899 | There's a size growth curve. | There's a size growth curve. |
428 | 00:25:24,921 | 00:25:27,863 | This is probably 80 to 150 years old. | This is probably 80 to 150 years old. |
429 | 00:25:27,983 | 00:25:30,305 | The oldest of them reach what sort of age? | The oldest of them reach what sort of age? |
430 | 00:25:30,306 | 00:25:34,306 | Around the UK, it's around about 220 years. | Around the UK, it's around about 220 years. |
431 | 00:25:34,654 | 00:25:36,466 | Up in Iceland, in the far north, | Up in Iceland, in the far north, |
432 | 00:25:36,480 | 00:25:39,691 | they'll hit 350, 400, maybe even 500 years. | they'll hit 350, 400, maybe even 500 years. |
433 | 00:25:46,815 | 00:25:50,281 | Only recently, this research team found a clam that had lived | Only recently, this research team found a clam that had lived |
434 | 00:25:50,510 | 00:25:53,489 | for more than half a millennium. | for more than half a millennium. |
435 | 00:25:56,259 | 00:25:59,756 | It's amazing to think that some of these clams that we're dredging up | It's amazing to think that some of these clams that we're dredging up |
436 | 00:25:59,763 | 00:26:01,552 | were born before Darwin, | were born before Darwin, |
437 | 00:26:01,904 | 00:26:04,913 | even before Elizabeth I. | even before Elizabeth I. |
438 | 00:26:06,376 | 00:26:09,241 | So, why do they live so long? | So, why do they live so long? |
439 | 00:26:10,370 | 00:26:13,785 | Any evolutionary explanation of why aging happens | Any evolutionary explanation of why aging happens |
440 | 00:26:13,905 | 00:26:15,371 | has to do two things. | has to do two things. |
441 | 00:26:15,424 | 00:26:17,847 | It has to be able to explain | It has to be able to explain |
442 | 00:26:17,866 | 00:26:20,451 | why you see aging in many species. | why you see aging in many species. |
443 | 00:26:20,485 | 00:26:23,262 | It also has to be able to explain | It also has to be able to explain |
444 | 00:26:23,382 | 00:26:25,986 | why you see enormously long lifespans | why you see enormously long lifespans |
445 | 00:26:26,029 | 00:26:29,750 | or possibly no aging in a very few species. | or possibly no aging in a very few species. |
446 | 00:26:30,029 | 00:26:33,165 | And the clams, I think, may be an example of this. | And the clams, I think, may be an example of this. |
447 | 00:26:33,173 | 00:26:35,054 | Because you've seen them and handled them for yourself. | Because you've seen them and handled them for yourself. |
448 | 00:26:35,174 | 00:26:37,058 | They have enormously thick shells. | They have enormously thick shells. |
449 | 00:26:37,246 | 00:26:40,373 | I don't think there are very many things down there | I don't think there are very many things down there |
450 | 00:26:40,380 | 00:26:43,262 | that can actually bite through them. | that can actually bite through them. |
451 | 00:26:43,291 | 00:26:45,615 | And so they can sit around | And so they can sit around |
452 | 00:26:45,958 | 00:26:49,068 | and they can just carry on producing offspring | and they can just carry on producing offspring |
453 | 00:26:49,069 | 00:26:51,608 | once they've reached a certain size. | once they've reached a certain size. |
454 | 00:26:53,597 | 00:26:56,690 | These clams are continuing to pass on their genes | These clams are continuing to pass on their genes |
455 | 00:26:56,736 | 00:27:01,856 | to the next generation, even at 200 and 300 years old.' | to the next generation, even at 200 and 300 years old.' |
456 | 00:27:03,021 | 00:27:06,028 | So, from the evolutionary point of view, it is not just that | So, from the evolutionary point of view, it is not just that |
457 | 00:27:06,029 | 00:27:09,668 | the individuals are well protected against being eaten. | the individuals are well protected against being eaten. |
458 | 00:27:09,788 | 00:27:12,948 | Because they're well-protected against being eaten, | Because they're well-protected against being eaten, |
459 | 00:27:12,949 | 00:27:16,508 | it's a good gamble to stay alive a long time, | it's a good gamble to stay alive a long time, |
460 | 00:27:16,509 | 00:27:19,173 | because you've got a good chance of reproducing later. | because you've got a good chance of reproducing later. |
461 | 00:27:19,196 | 00:27:21,779 | Whereas something like a salmon... | Whereas something like a salmon... |
462 | 00:27:22,198 | 00:27:24,808 | has a very poor chance of reproducing again, | has a very poor chance of reproducing again, |
463 | 00:27:24,823 | 00:27:29,113 | so it might as well throw everything it's got into one big gamble now. | so it might as well throw everything it's got into one big gamble now. |
464 | 00:27:29,586 | 00:27:31,132 | That's exactly it. | That's exactly it. |
465 | 00:27:31,133 | 00:27:33,908 | There is no point in spending resources | There is no point in spending resources |
466 | 00:27:33,909 | 00:27:36,668 | to make a body that will last 400 years | to make a body that will last 400 years |
467 | 00:27:36,669 | 00:27:39,657 | if your chance of making it through the night is pretty slim. | if your chance of making it through the night is pretty slim. |
468 | 00:27:48,465 | 00:27:53,070 | So, evolutionary science tells us a lot about ageing and death. | So, evolutionary science tells us a lot about ageing and death. |
469 | 00:27:54,987 | 00:27:58,630 | The clams are able to reproduce when they are hundreds of years old, | The clams are able to reproduce when they are hundreds of years old, |
470 | 00:27:59,247 | 00:28:01,585 | and so long as they are able to reproduce, | and so long as they are able to reproduce, |
471 | 00:28:01,961 | 00:28:04,658 | their genes keep them alive. | their genes keep them alive. |
472 | 00:28:05,968 | 00:28:10,069 | We need to see death from a gene's eye point of view. | We need to see death from a gene's eye point of view. |
473 | 00:28:13,045 | 00:28:16,080 | Our bodies are survival machines for genes. | Our bodies are survival machines for genes. |
474 | 00:28:17,002 | 00:28:19,821 | Once our genes have got us to reproductive age | Once our genes have got us to reproductive age |
475 | 00:28:19,836 | 00:28:22,748 | and copied themselves into a new generation, | and copied themselves into a new generation, |
476 | 00:28:22,749 | 00:28:25,680 | our bodies have less purpose. | our bodies have less purpose. |
477 | 00:28:25,909 | 00:28:27,838 | Time bombs inside us go off. | Time bombs inside us go off. |
478 | 00:28:28,683 | 00:28:30,138 | We age. | We age. |
479 | 00:28:30,161 | 00:28:31,670 | We die. | We die. |
480 | 00:28:34,228 | 00:28:38,906 | So, rather than looking upon ageing as a wearing out of the body, | So, rather than looking upon ageing as a wearing out of the body, |
481 | 00:28:38,914 | 00:28:43,829 | perhaps we should see it as a side effect of how our genes work. | perhaps we should see it as a side effect of how our genes work. |
482 | 00:28:47,547 | 00:28:52,004 | Even extraordinary exceptions throw light on this truth. | Even extraordinary exceptions throw light on this truth. |
483 | 00:28:54,789 | 00:28:57,029 | This is Irving Kahn, | This is Irving Kahn, |
484 | 00:28:57,149 | 00:29:00,562 | a financial trader on New York's Madison Avenue, | a financial trader on New York's Madison Avenue, |
485 | 00:29:00,682 | 00:29:04,202 | who has come to work every day since 1927. | who has come to work every day since 1927. |
486 | 00:29:06,012 | 00:29:09,350 | Irving is 105 years old. | Irving is 105 years old. |
487 | 00:29:09,570 | 00:29:12,169 | Do you remember the Wall Street crash? | Do you remember the Wall Street crash? |
488 | 00:29:12,508 | 00:29:15,308 | Oh, yes. I came just at the time. | Oh, yes. I came just at the time. |
489 | 00:29:15,428 | 00:29:22,407 | About three or four months before the peak, the summer of 1928, '29. | About three or four months before the peak, the summer of 1928, '29. |
490 | 00:29:24,609 | 00:29:27,658 | And that was one reason I didn't like the business. | And that was one reason I didn't like the business. |
491 | 00:29:27,678 | 00:29:28,395 | Yes. | Yes. |
492 | 00:29:28,410 | 00:29:31,701 | Because I came here, went to the exchange | Because I came here, went to the exchange |
493 | 00:29:31,821 | 00:29:33,128 | on Wall Street, | on Wall Street, |
494 | 00:29:33,248 | 00:29:38,187 | and found, after a week on the floor, that it was like working in a casino. | and found, after a week on the floor, that it was like working in a casino. |
495 | 00:29:38,202 | 00:29:38,994 | I can imagine. | I can imagine. |
496 | 00:29:39,010 | 00:29:40,741 | - A gambling house. - Yes. | - A gambling house. - Yes. |
497 | 00:29:40,861 | 00:29:42,993 | I understand that, not just you | I understand that, not just you |
498 | 00:29:43,011 | 00:29:45,937 | but many members of your family are extremely long-lived. | but many members of your family are extremely long-lived. |
499 | 00:29:45,976 | 00:29:49,817 | Yes, my brother Peter is about 103 or 104. | Yes, my brother Peter is about 103 or 104. |
500 | 00:29:49,937 | 00:29:51,781 | - I'm 105. - Yes. | - I'm 105. - Yes. |
501 | 00:29:52,139 | 00:29:56,571 | I have limited renals and limited hearsight - | I have limited renals and limited hearsight - |
502 | 00:29:56,982 | 00:30:01,600 | and I hope, the right number of marbles. | and I hope, the right number of marbles. |
503 | 00:30:01,630 | 00:30:03,215 | You have got a lot of marbles, I think! | You have got a lot of marbles, I think! |
504 | 00:30:03,261 | 00:30:04,876 | What about your sister, how old is she? | What about your sister, how old is she? |
505 | 00:30:04,889 | 00:30:06,926 | She's 108. | She's 108. |
506 | 00:30:07,429 | 00:30:09,487 | Mr Kahn, is it possible to give us an idea | Mr Kahn, is it possible to give us an idea |
507 | 00:30:09,494 | 00:30:12,310 | what it feels like to be your age? | what it feels like to be your age? |
508 | 00:30:13,273 | 00:30:16,190 | It's much better and it's much worse. | It's much better and it's much worse. |
509 | 00:30:21,659 | 00:30:25,261 | So, why do some people's genes keep their bodies going | So, why do some people's genes keep their bodies going |
510 | 00:30:25,262 | 00:30:26,486 | for so much longer? | for so much longer? |
511 | 00:30:28,125 | 00:30:31,030 | The curious case of Irving Kahn and his family | The curious case of Irving Kahn and his family |
512 | 00:30:31,150 | 00:30:35,270 | has intrigued scientists who are trying to answer this very question. | has intrigued scientists who are trying to answer this very question. |
513 | 00:30:38,376 | 00:30:43,068 | When we ask our people, why do you think you live to be so old? | When we ask our people, why do you think you live to be so old? |
514 | 00:30:43,403 | 00:30:44,941 | One of the things they're saying, | One of the things they're saying, |
515 | 00:30:44,963 | 00:30:49,382 | "Hey, it's in my family. My mother was 102, my grandfather was 108." | "Hey, it's in my family. My mother was 102, my grandfather was 108." |
516 | 00:30:49,502 | 00:30:53,597 | Irving can show that he has four other siblings | Irving can show that he has four other siblings |
517 | 00:30:53,598 | 00:30:56,270 | that lived to be 100. | that lived to be 100. |
518 | 00:30:59,320 | 00:31:03,314 | The study looked at 500 aged Ashkenazi Jews, | The study looked at 500 aged Ashkenazi Jews, |
519 | 00:31:03,403 | 00:31:06,842 | like Irving Kahn, from the same geographical area, | like Irving Kahn, from the same geographical area, |
520 | 00:31:06,843 | 00:31:10,843 | whose environment and genes can be easily compared. | whose environment and genes can be easily compared. |
521 | 00:31:14,331 | 00:31:17,866 | For Irving, and especially for his sister, Helen, | For Irving, and especially for his sister, Helen, |
522 | 00:31:18,171 | 00:31:21,120 | she's been smoking for 95 years, | she's been smoking for 95 years, |
523 | 00:31:21,592 | 00:31:24,347 | two packs for 95 years, | two packs for 95 years, |
524 | 00:31:24,467 | 00:31:27,930 | which shows you that if you smoke for 95 years, you live a long life! | which shows you that if you smoke for 95 years, you live a long life! |
525 | 00:31:27,931 | 00:31:28,816 | I know it doesn't! | I know it doesn't! |
526 | 00:31:28,823 | 00:31:30,909 | I can assure you... I can assure you that that's true. | I can assure you... I can assure you that that's true. |
527 | 00:31:31,595 | 00:31:35,266 | And Irving has smoked for about 30 years in his life. | And Irving has smoked for about 30 years in his life. |
528 | 00:31:35,526 | 00:31:40,236 | So the point here is that our centenarians, as a group, | So the point here is that our centenarians, as a group, |
529 | 00:31:40,356 | 00:31:42,930 | did not interact with their environment | did not interact with their environment |
530 | 00:31:43,050 | 00:31:46,978 | the way we tell... the way the doctors tell their patients, | the way we tell... the way the doctors tell their patients, |
531 | 00:31:47,001 | 00:31:50,170 | that you have to watch your weight, you have to exercise, | that you have to watch your weight, you have to exercise, |
532 | 00:31:50,171 | 00:31:51,778 | you shouldn't smoke | you shouldn't smoke |
533 | 00:31:51,793 | 00:31:55,370 | and you should drink one cup of alcohol a day | and you should drink one cup of alcohol a day |
534 | 00:31:55,490 | 00:31:58,626 | and all the things we know to tell them. It doesn't matter for them. | and all the things we know to tell them. It doesn't matter for them. |
535 | 00:32:00,517 | 00:32:03,839 | So, for some, lifestyle and environment | So, for some, lifestyle and environment |
536 | 00:32:03,862 | 00:32:07,186 | don't play as large a role as we've been told. | don't play as large a role as we've been told. |
537 | 00:32:07,813 | 00:32:11,346 | But if Irving's genes hold the secret to long life, | But if Irving's genes hold the secret to long life, |
538 | 00:32:11,531 | 00:32:15,651 | why hasn't evolution given us all genes like his? | why hasn't evolution given us all genes like his? |
539 | 00:32:16,173 | 00:32:20,811 | If there are genes that increase longevity out into the hundreds, | If there are genes that increase longevity out into the hundreds, |
540 | 00:32:20,931 | 00:32:25,462 | why didn't natural selection favour those genes in our ancestral past? | why didn't natural selection favour those genes in our ancestral past? |
541 | 00:32:26,102 | 00:32:28,921 | Well, I will tell you, there is something very upsetting | Well, I will tell you, there is something very upsetting |
542 | 00:32:29,041 | 00:32:31,885 | in this sense in our group. | in this sense in our group. |
543 | 00:32:32,005 | 00:32:36,050 | First of all, a third of the centenarians in the world don't have children. | First of all, a third of the centenarians in the world don't have children. |
544 | 00:32:36,051 | 00:32:39,582 | OK, so I don't know, is it having children, raising them, | OK, so I don't know, is it having children, raising them, |
545 | 00:32:39,771 | 00:32:41,223 | rearing them, I don't know what? | rearing them, I don't know what? |
546 | 00:32:41,239 | 00:32:43,913 | But... the point is that there is some exchange | But... the point is that there is some exchange |
547 | 00:32:43,928 | 00:32:46,305 | between reproduction and aging. | between reproduction and aging. |
548 | 00:32:46,328 | 00:32:49,962 | But also, in my study, the centenarians had less kids | But also, in my study, the centenarians had less kids |
549 | 00:32:50,371 | 00:32:54,630 | at a much later age than my control population. | at a much later age than my control population. |
550 | 00:32:55,148 | 00:32:59,394 | So, if the control population has three to five kids on average, | So, if the control population has three to five kids on average, |
551 | 00:32:59,611 | 00:33:03,131 | our centenarians are 1.7 kids on average. | our centenarians are 1.7 kids on average. |
552 | 00:33:03,251 | 00:33:06,091 | And so, if you are thinking that way, | And so, if you are thinking that way, |
553 | 00:33:06,211 | 00:33:09,310 | we're losing longevity genes, right? | we're losing longevity genes, right? |
554 | 00:33:09,371 | 00:33:12,250 | Because in every generation, we populate more | Because in every generation, we populate more |
555 | 00:33:12,251 | 00:33:15,921 | with kids of the people who don't have longevity genes | with kids of the people who don't have longevity genes |
556 | 00:33:15,936 | 00:33:18,024 | than have longevity genes. | than have longevity genes. |
557 | 00:33:21,704 | 00:33:25,466 | Our genes appear to trade long life for reproduction. | Our genes appear to trade long life for reproduction. |
558 | 00:33:27,093 | 00:33:30,598 | Longevity seems to be connected to later reproduction | Longevity seems to be connected to later reproduction |
559 | 00:33:30,613 | 00:33:32,510 | or no children at all. | or no children at all. |
560 | 00:33:34,042 | 00:33:38,387 | So how long we live and why we die are dependent on our genes. | So how long we live and why we die are dependent on our genes. |
561 | 00:33:39,148 | 00:33:42,927 | And I'm about to look my own genetic code straight in the face. | And I'm about to look my own genetic code straight in the face. |
562 | 00:33:48,211 | 00:33:50,165 | Advances in genetic science mean | Advances in genetic science mean |
563 | 00:33:50,196 | 00:33:54,371 | it is now possible for me to get my entire genome decoded. | it is now possible for me to get my entire genome decoded. |
564 | 00:33:59,731 | 00:34:02,611 | There's something very personal and intimate about it as well. | There's something very personal and intimate about it as well. |
565 | 00:34:02,731 | 00:34:05,489 | This is something that is absolutely unique to me, | This is something that is absolutely unique to me, |
566 | 00:34:05,497 | 00:34:08,110 | there's never ever been, in the history of the world, | there's never ever been, in the history of the world, |
567 | 00:34:08,133 | 00:34:10,170 | nor will there be again | nor will there be again |
568 | 00:34:10,290 | 00:34:12,331 | a genome which is the same as mine, | a genome which is the same as mine, |
569 | 00:34:12,376 | 00:34:15,826 | or the same as yours, or the same as anybody else's. | or the same as yours, or the same as anybody else's. |
570 | 00:34:22,893 | 00:34:25,906 | This new science is still in its infancy. | This new science is still in its infancy. |
571 | 00:34:26,451 | 00:34:29,690 | I'm going to be one of just a dozen people in the world | I'm going to be one of just a dozen people in the world |
572 | 00:34:29,810 | 00:34:31,720 | and the first person in Britain publicly | and the first person in Britain publicly |
573 | 00:34:32,024 | 00:34:35,270 | to have their whole genome sequenced. | to have their whole genome sequenced. |
574 | 00:34:40,664 | 00:34:43,050 | What we're doing here is very new for us, actually, | What we're doing here is very new for us, actually, |
575 | 00:34:43,051 | 00:34:45,224 | and it's actually very exciting for us. | and it's actually very exciting for us. |
576 | 00:34:45,254 | 00:34:48,911 | We're taking a genome of a healthy person and we are asking, | We're taking a genome of a healthy person and we are asking, |
577 | 00:34:48,917 | 00:34:51,554 | what can we learn about that person? | what can we learn about that person? |
578 | 00:34:51,674 | 00:34:54,890 | It is your most important bit of information about you, | It is your most important bit of information about you, |
579 | 00:34:54,891 | 00:34:56,171 | is your genome sequence. | is your genome sequence. |
580 | 00:34:56,529 | 00:34:59,447 | But on a serious note, of course, we may find information | But on a serious note, of course, we may find information |
581 | 00:34:59,729 | 00:35:04,054 | in your genome that has clinical or health implications. | in your genome that has clinical or health implications. |
582 | 00:35:04,174 | 00:35:05,843 | Yes, I have thought about that. | Yes, I have thought about that. |
583 | 00:35:05,963 | 00:35:07,367 | So, let's go, let's go and do it. | So, let's go, let's go and do it. |
584 | 00:35:07,626 | 00:35:08,967 | OK. | OK. |
585 | 00:35:10,041 | 00:35:12,826 | It'll just be a little scratch as the needle goes in. | It'll just be a little scratch as the needle goes in. |
586 | 00:35:13,131 | 00:35:16,955 | 'Having my blood taken is only the first stage in a complex process.' | 'Having my blood taken is only the first stage in a complex process.' |
587 | 00:35:17,171 | 00:35:18,464 | OK, so we're almost there. | OK, so we're almost there. |
588 | 00:35:18,929 | 00:35:21,266 | This is the most painless blood test I've ever had. | This is the most painless blood test I've ever had. |
589 | 00:35:23,367 | 00:35:26,026 | 'Having my genome decoded is, in effect, | 'Having my genome decoded is, in effect, |
590 | 00:35:26,217 | 00:35:30,331 | a way of narrowing down how and when I'm going to die. | a way of narrowing down how and when I'm going to die. |
591 | 00:35:30,788 | 00:35:34,651 | 'My journey to understand death has become personal.' | 'My journey to understand death has become personal.' |
592 | 00:35:34,811 | 00:35:36,849 | You have roughly 100 mutations | You have roughly 100 mutations |
593 | 00:35:36,857 | 00:35:41,706 | which have been reported as being associated with a disease. | which have been reported as being associated with a disease. |
594 | 00:35:53,435 | 00:35:56,487 | 'I may be one of a handful of individuals in the world | 'I may be one of a handful of individuals in the world |
595 | 00:35:56,495 | 00:35:58,788 | 'to have their genome sequenced, | 'to have their genome sequenced, |
596 | 00:35:59,093 | 00:36:01,394 | but before I find out my results | but before I find out my results |
597 | 00:36:01,441 | 00:36:04,230 | 'I'm off to meet the man who was first. | 'I'm off to meet the man who was first. |
598 | 00:36:05,655 | 00:36:07,735 | 'And he isn't just anyone. | 'And he isn't just anyone. |
599 | 00:36:07,765 | 00:36:11,719 | 'He's one of the two men who made this new science possible - | 'He's one of the two men who made this new science possible - |
600 | 00:36:11,839 | 00:36:13,950 | 'James Watson.' | 'James Watson.' |
601 | 00:36:14,528 | 00:36:17,001 | Well, it's certainly a very beautiful thing. | Well, it's certainly a very beautiful thing. |
602 | 00:36:17,121 | 00:36:19,040 | 'Together with Francis Crick, | 'Together with Francis Crick, |
603 | 00:36:19,041 | 00:36:22,159 | 'James Watson discovered that genes are digital codes | 'James Watson discovered that genes are digital codes |
604 | 00:36:22,167 | 00:36:24,460 | 'written on DNA molecules. | 'written on DNA molecules. |
605 | 00:36:26,139 | 00:36:29,441 | 'Watson and Crick's names will live forever. | 'Watson and Crick's names will live forever. |
606 | 00:36:29,920 | 00:36:33,561 | 'And Watson isn't shy about it.' | 'And Watson isn't shy about it.' |
607 | 00:36:34,375 | 00:36:38,240 | So now I realise, I am, except for Hawking, | So now I realise, I am, except for Hawking, |
608 | 00:36:38,241 | 00:36:40,321 | the most famous scientist alive. | the most famous scientist alive. |
609 | 00:36:40,354 | 00:36:42,333 | Oh, wonderful, yes. | Oh, wonderful, yes. |
610 | 00:36:43,468 | 00:36:46,656 | I turned out to be helped by people looking at my DNA. | I turned out to be helped by people looking at my DNA. |
611 | 00:36:47,049 | 00:36:48,163 | In what way? | In what way? |
612 | 00:36:48,178 | 00:36:52,034 | It revealed that I have a genetic polymorphism | It revealed that I have a genetic polymorphism |
613 | 00:36:52,554 | 00:36:56,734 | which metabolises drugs and I have one which acts very slowly. | which metabolises drugs and I have one which acts very slowly. |
614 | 00:36:56,854 | 00:36:58,920 | So if I take, er... | So if I take, er... |
615 | 00:36:59,621 | 00:37:00,962 | beta blockers, | beta blockers, |
616 | 00:37:01,001 | 00:37:05,518 | it stays in my system for a week instead of going away for a day. | it stays in my system for a week instead of going away for a day. |
617 | 00:37:05,854 | 00:37:09,040 | So I've been given them for, you know, | So I've been given them for, you know, |
618 | 00:37:09,041 | 00:37:13,041 | to help control my blood pressure and I went to sleep! | to help control my blood pressure and I went to sleep! |
619 | 00:37:15,675 | 00:37:18,011 | Watson took a personal risk | Watson took a personal risk |
620 | 00:37:18,034 | 00:37:20,969 | in making his genome available for study, | in making his genome available for study, |
621 | 00:37:21,089 | 00:37:24,532 | exposing all its imperfections to public scrutiny | exposing all its imperfections to public scrutiny |
622 | 00:37:24,555 | 00:37:27,993 | for the sake of advancing genetic research. | for the sake of advancing genetic research. |
623 | 00:37:28,755 | 00:37:31,185 | Do you get great pleasure from ideas? | Do you get great pleasure from ideas? |
624 | 00:37:31,216 | 00:37:33,844 | - No, I get pleasure from understanding. - Yes. | - No, I get pleasure from understanding. - Yes. |
625 | 00:37:34,036 | 00:37:37,047 | So understanding, everything falls into place when you understand? | So understanding, everything falls into place when you understand? |
626 | 00:37:37,062 | 00:37:42,201 | Yes, you move from... It's understanding, er... | Yes, you move from... It's understanding, er... |
627 | 00:37:43,720 | 00:37:47,481 | that gives you happiness and I think it's one of the... | that gives you happiness and I think it's one of the... |
628 | 00:37:47,836 | 00:37:49,370 | unique human features, | unique human features, |
629 | 00:37:49,401 | 00:37:53,995 | because it's not limited to me but it clearly, | because it's not limited to me but it clearly, |
630 | 00:37:54,361 | 00:37:57,590 | you know, when you're able to find out how to do something. | you know, when you're able to find out how to do something. |
631 | 00:38:04,121 | 00:38:07,320 | This, for me, is what is so thrilling about science - | This, for me, is what is so thrilling about science - |
632 | 00:38:07,321 | 00:38:11,023 | understanding things, such as how the DNA molecule | understanding things, such as how the DNA molecule |
633 | 00:38:11,038 | 00:38:14,096 | underlies all life on Earth. | underlies all life on Earth. |
634 | 00:38:16,044 | 00:38:19,400 | It's because Watson discovered the structure of DNA, | It's because Watson discovered the structure of DNA, |
635 | 00:38:19,401 | 00:38:21,344 | over half a century ago, | over half a century ago, |
636 | 00:38:21,351 | 00:38:24,416 | that today I'm able to have my own genome analysed | that today I'm able to have my own genome analysed |
637 | 00:38:24,881 | 00:38:30,725 | and understand what makes me live, and how and when I might die. | and understand what makes me live, and how and when I might die. |
638 | 00:38:33,269 | 00:38:36,221 | Today is a very special day for me. | Today is a very special day for me. |
639 | 00:38:36,217 | 00:38:38,800 | In 50 years, lots of people will be able to say this, | In 50 years, lots of people will be able to say this, |
640 | 00:38:38,816 | 00:38:41,533 | but today I'm one of very few people | but today I'm one of very few people |
641 | 00:38:41,653 | 00:38:44,653 | who's had their entire genome sequenced. | who's had their entire genome sequenced. |
642 | 00:38:44,773 | 00:38:48,666 | Today is the big day when I get to see the results. | Today is the big day when I get to see the results. |
643 | 00:38:51,041 | 00:38:54,195 | So Richard, it's a long time since you were in Oxford | So Richard, it's a long time since you were in Oxford |
644 | 00:38:54,210 | 00:38:55,963 | and we took an armful of your blood. | and we took an armful of your blood. |
645 | 00:38:55,993 | 00:38:58,043 | We've had a team busy working since then, | We've had a team busy working since then, |
646 | 00:38:58,231 | 00:39:01,060 | trying to extract the DNA and reconstruct your genome. | trying to extract the DNA and reconstruct your genome. |
647 | 00:39:01,180 | 00:39:02,631 | We take these fragments... | We take these fragments... |
648 | 00:39:02,667 | 00:39:04,366 | 'To understand my genes, | 'To understand my genes, |
649 | 00:39:04,640 | 00:39:08,430 | 'Gil McVean matches them against the human reference genome - | 'Gil McVean matches them against the human reference genome - |
650 | 00:39:08,634 | 00:39:10,821 | 'a composite of anonymous donors | 'a composite of anonymous donors |
651 | 00:39:10,836 | 00:39:14,350 | 'that took ten years to decode and construct.' | 'that took ten years to decode and construct.' |
652 | 00:39:15,341 | 00:39:17,140 | What we're really interested in | What we're really interested in |
653 | 00:39:17,141 | 00:39:19,354 | is not saying where you agree with this reference | is not saying where you agree with this reference |
654 | 00:39:19,370 | 00:39:20,912 | but finding places where you differ. | but finding places where you differ. |
655 | 00:39:21,204 | 00:39:24,099 | In that, we find over four million differences | In that, we find over four million differences |
656 | 00:39:24,219 | 00:39:26,294 | between your genome and that reference. | between your genome and that reference. |
657 | 00:39:26,456 | 00:39:29,640 | We have about 50,000 variants that we have seen in you | We have about 50,000 variants that we have seen in you |
658 | 00:39:29,678 | 00:39:32,703 | for the very first time, completely new to science. | for the very first time, completely new to science. |
659 | 00:39:33,313 | 00:39:36,729 | 'It is extraordinary that this enormous quantity of data | 'It is extraordinary that this enormous quantity of data |
660 | 00:39:36,730 | 00:39:40,369 | 'reveals incredibly precise details about me. | 'reveals incredibly precise details about me. |
661 | 00:39:40,370 | 00:39:42,417 | 'Elements of my private world | 'Elements of my private world |
662 | 00:39:42,537 | 00:39:46,489 | 'that I've never shared with anyone before, or known myself.' | 'that I've never shared with anyone before, or known myself.' |
663 | 00:39:46,609 | 00:39:48,769 | You have a classic European mutation | You have a classic European mutation |
664 | 00:39:48,770 | 00:39:50,672 | that means that you've got runny earwax. | that means that you've got runny earwax. |
665 | 00:39:50,792 | 00:39:54,855 | Another one which means that you can smell asparagus in your own urine. | Another one which means that you can smell asparagus in your own urine. |
666 | 00:39:54,975 | 00:39:58,101 | You've got another one that means you can taste broccoli. | You've got another one that means you can taste broccoli. |
667 | 00:39:58,490 | 00:39:59,984 | They sound frivolous, | They sound frivolous, |
668 | 00:39:59,992 | 00:40:03,474 | but at the same time they probably point to an evolutionary process | but at the same time they probably point to an evolutionary process |
669 | 00:40:03,527 | 00:40:07,810 | and that's probably to do with your ability to detect toxins. | and that's probably to do with your ability to detect toxins. |
670 | 00:40:08,042 | 00:40:11,675 | Plants have different toxins across the world. | Plants have different toxins across the world. |
671 | 00:40:11,676 | 00:40:14,249 | There are local adaptations to toxins | There are local adaptations to toxins |
672 | 00:40:14,250 | 00:40:18,213 | that you need to be able to recognise to survive. | that you need to be able to recognise to survive. |
673 | 00:40:18,434 | 00:40:21,750 | 'Buried in my genome is the story of my own survival, | 'Buried in my genome is the story of my own survival, |
674 | 00:40:22,474 | 00:40:26,010 | 'but also clues about how I may die. | 'but also clues about how I may die. |
675 | 00:40:26,130 | 00:40:30,130 | 'Do I have ticking time bombs in my genetic code?' | 'Do I have ticking time bombs in my genetic code?' |
676 | 00:40:31,113 | 00:40:32,896 | You have roughly a hundred mutations | You have roughly a hundred mutations |
677 | 00:40:32,919 | 00:40:36,923 | which have been seen before in clinical settings | which have been seen before in clinical settings |
678 | 00:40:36,969 | 00:40:40,458 | and have been reported as being associated with a disease. | and have been reported as being associated with a disease. |
679 | 00:40:40,850 | 00:40:44,929 | Having these mutations doesn't mean you'll definitely get the disease, | Having these mutations doesn't mean you'll definitely get the disease, |
680 | 00:40:45,049 | 00:40:46,893 | it just alters your chance of getting that. | it just alters your chance of getting that. |
681 | 00:40:47,487 | 00:40:49,369 | These are the variants that you carry | These are the variants that you carry |
682 | 00:40:49,392 | 00:40:54,690 | which have been associated with a whole range of common disorders. | which have been associated with a whole range of common disorders. |
683 | 00:40:54,810 | 00:40:57,129 | Everything from cancer through to type II diabetes | Everything from cancer through to type II diabetes |
684 | 00:40:57,144 | 00:40:59,116 | through to schizophrenia. | through to schizophrenia. |
685 | 00:40:59,570 | 00:41:01,914 | Let's just take an example of this. | Let's just take an example of this. |
686 | 00:41:01,960 | 00:41:04,982 | If you zoom in on chromosome 11, you've got a mutation | If you zoom in on chromosome 11, you've got a mutation |
687 | 00:41:05,330 | 00:41:09,660 | which the literature tells you is associated with, or causes porphyria, | which the literature tells you is associated with, or causes porphyria, |
688 | 00:41:09,668 | 00:41:13,729 | which is the disease that people hypothesised for a while | which is the disease that people hypothesised for a while |
689 | 00:41:13,730 | 00:41:15,672 | caused the madness of King George. | caused the madness of King George. |
690 | 00:41:15,792 | 00:41:17,809 | It's a nasty disease. You would know if you had it. | It's a nasty disease. You would know if you had it. |
691 | 00:41:17,929 | 00:41:21,236 | You should have a 70% chance of getting porphyria. | You should have a 70% chance of getting porphyria. |
692 | 00:41:22,411 | 00:41:26,631 | 'So I've dodged that bullet, but there are other threats. | 'So I've dodged that bullet, but there are other threats. |
693 | 00:41:26,751 | 00:41:29,465 | 'It's so impressively precise! | 'It's so impressively precise! |
694 | 00:41:29,717 | 00:41:32,209 | 'My genome reveals that if I smoked, | 'My genome reveals that if I smoked, |
695 | 00:41:32,210 | 00:41:34,669 | 'I would have been in the most high-risk group | 'I would have been in the most high-risk group |
696 | 00:41:34,684 | 00:41:36,904 | 'for developing lung cancer.' | 'for developing lung cancer.' |
697 | 00:41:38,100 | 00:41:41,369 | Your genotype doubles your risk of getting lung cancer | Your genotype doubles your risk of getting lung cancer |
698 | 00:41:41,489 | 00:41:43,205 | but actually the way it does it | but actually the way it does it |
699 | 00:41:43,220 | 00:41:46,890 | is through doubling your risk of smoking in a particular way. | is through doubling your risk of smoking in a particular way. |
700 | 00:41:47,010 | 00:41:50,667 | So this variant influences your risk of getting lung cancer | So this variant influences your risk of getting lung cancer |
701 | 00:41:50,675 | 00:41:52,800 | because it changes the way people smoke. | because it changes the way people smoke. |
702 | 00:41:52,839 | 00:41:54,263 | They smoke deeper breaths, | They smoke deeper breaths, |
703 | 00:41:54,538 | 00:41:56,688 | they smoke closer to the end of the cigarette. | they smoke closer to the end of the cigarette. |
704 | 00:41:56,734 | 00:42:00,463 | What it actually does is change your smoking habits. | What it actually does is change your smoking habits. |
705 | 00:42:00,509 | 00:42:01,932 | How fascinating! | How fascinating! |
706 | 00:42:02,052 | 00:42:05,930 | So it's picked up as a gene for lung cancer | So it's picked up as a gene for lung cancer |
707 | 00:42:06,050 | 00:42:09,753 | but the method of transmission, the method of effect | but the method of transmission, the method of effect |
708 | 00:42:09,873 | 00:42:11,724 | - ..is via smoking behaviour. - Exactly. | - ..is via smoking behaviour. - Exactly. |
709 | 00:42:12,016 | 00:42:14,207 | This raises the question of whether you've ever smoked. | This raises the question of whether you've ever smoked. |
710 | 00:42:14,208 | 00:42:15,892 | Do you like the smell of wood smoke? | Do you like the smell of wood smoke? |
711 | 00:42:15,907 | 00:42:17,393 | No, I've never smoked. | No, I've never smoked. |
712 | 00:42:17,431 | 00:42:20,556 | That's good, but don't take up smoking is my advice. | That's good, but don't take up smoking is my advice. |
713 | 00:42:20,816 | 00:42:23,688 | It seems to me to be utterly astonishing | It seems to me to be utterly astonishing |
714 | 00:42:23,711 | 00:42:27,833 | that it's possible for scientists to take an individual | that it's possible for scientists to take an individual |
715 | 00:42:27,953 | 00:42:35,195 | and to detect these millions of digital pieces of information | and to detect these millions of digital pieces of information |
716 | 00:42:35,835 | 00:42:39,486 | to actually read it out as though it was a computer disk. | to actually read it out as though it was a computer disk. |
717 | 00:42:39,606 | 00:42:44,023 | Well, here it is then. Here is your genome. Look after it! | Well, here it is then. Here is your genome. Look after it! |
718 | 00:42:44,053 | 00:42:45,135 | Thank you very much! | Thank you very much! |
719 | 00:42:45,379 | 00:42:47,680 | I'm delighted to have it. | I'm delighted to have it. |
720 | 00:42:48,050 | 00:42:51,757 | Thank you so much for all the work you and your colleagues have put in. | Thank you so much for all the work you and your colleagues have put in. |
721 | 00:42:52,130 | 00:42:54,769 | I mean, when I look at this, this little box here, | I mean, when I look at this, this little box here, |
722 | 00:42:54,770 | 00:42:58,337 | what it contains is all the information necessary | what it contains is all the information necessary |
723 | 00:42:58,782 | 00:43:02,796 | to make... not quite me, to make an identical twin of me. | to make... not quite me, to make an identical twin of me. |
724 | 00:43:03,369 | 00:43:06,287 | And I think that's an astonishing thought. | And I think that's an astonishing thought. |
725 | 00:43:06,769 | 00:43:08,966 | Thank you very, very much for this. | Thank you very, very much for this. |
726 | 00:43:08,997 | 00:43:09,941 | It's been a pleasure. | It's been a pleasure. |
727 | 00:43:19,726 | 00:43:22,639 | As we come to learn more about DNA, | As we come to learn more about DNA, |
728 | 00:43:22,759 | 00:43:26,210 | our relationship with death is bound to change. | our relationship with death is bound to change. |
729 | 00:43:28,758 | 00:43:31,756 | And as more of us have our genomes analysed, | And as more of us have our genomes analysed, |
730 | 00:43:32,016 | 00:43:36,160 | will we be able to avoid those ticking time bombs contained in our codes | will we be able to avoid those ticking time bombs contained in our codes |
731 | 00:43:36,747 | 00:43:40,530 | that killed our ancestors after they reproduced? | that killed our ancestors after they reproduced? |
732 | 00:43:49,450 | 00:43:52,770 | This is my genome, my whole genome. | This is my genome, my whole genome. |
733 | 00:43:52,890 | 00:43:57,111 | And strangely enough, portions of my genome are behind that door. | And strangely enough, portions of my genome are behind that door. |
734 | 00:43:57,650 | 00:44:00,718 | Behind there is the Dawkins' family vault. | Behind there is the Dawkins' family vault. |
735 | 00:44:01,090 | 00:44:05,633 | This has been the Dawkins' church since the 1720s | This has been the Dawkins' church since the 1720s |
736 | 00:44:05,753 | 00:44:10,647 | and in there are 20 of my relations, many of them my ancestors, | and in there are 20 of my relations, many of them my ancestors, |
737 | 00:44:10,767 | 00:44:13,146 | and they have contributed some of the genes | and they have contributed some of the genes |
738 | 00:44:13,152 | 00:44:16,246 | that are inside this little silver box. | that are inside this little silver box. |
739 | 00:44:17,267 | 00:44:20,619 | At the top, next to the top there, | At the top, next to the top there, |
740 | 00:44:21,010 | 00:44:25,932 | Henry Dawkins, and then three down, his wife, Lady Juliana Dawkins. | Henry Dawkins, and then three down, his wife, Lady Juliana Dawkins. |
741 | 00:44:26,473 | 00:44:31,258 | They are my four greats - my great, great, great, great grandparents. | They are my four greats - my great, great, great, great grandparents. |
742 | 00:44:31,650 | 00:44:36,831 | One-64th of the genes inside this little silver box come from Henry. | One-64th of the genes inside this little silver box come from Henry. |
743 | 00:44:37,450 | 00:44:40,103 | The bottom of this column here, the middle column, is another Henry, | The bottom of this column here, the middle column, is another Henry, |
744 | 00:44:40,223 | 00:44:45,250 | his son - he has contributed one-32nd part | his son - he has contributed one-32nd part |
745 | 00:44:45,370 | 00:44:47,870 | of the genes inside this hard disk. | of the genes inside this hard disk. |
746 | 00:44:48,544 | 00:44:51,234 | Unfortunately, the door can't be opened. | Unfortunately, the door can't be opened. |
747 | 00:44:51,470 | 00:44:54,289 | It hasn't been opened since, I think, 1919. | It hasn't been opened since, I think, 1919. |
748 | 00:44:54,290 | 00:44:56,878 | They've lost the key, nobody knows how to open it. | They've lost the key, nobody knows how to open it. |
749 | 00:44:56,893 | 00:45:00,353 | There are some slots in there that I should never occupy | There are some slots in there that I should never occupy |
750 | 00:45:00,368 | 00:45:02,212 | unless they can get the door open! | unless they can get the door open! |
751 | 00:45:02,219 | 00:45:03,796 | What would be rather nice | What would be rather nice |
752 | 00:45:03,819 | 00:45:07,376 | would be if we could somehow post this disk in there | would be if we could somehow post this disk in there |
753 | 00:45:07,429 | 00:45:09,967 | to rest alongside my ancestors. | to rest alongside my ancestors. |
754 | 00:45:11,711 | 00:45:16,290 | But the genes, the set of instructions inside us, don't rest. | But the genes, the set of instructions inside us, don't rest. |
755 | 00:45:17,007 | 00:45:20,382 | Just as they have come from our ancestors before us, | Just as they have come from our ancestors before us, |
756 | 00:45:20,405 | 00:45:23,489 | so too do they march on into our children | so too do they march on into our children |
757 | 00:45:23,490 | 00:45:27,490 | and their children's children. | and their children's children. |
758 | 00:45:28,413 | 00:45:33,043 | Our genes are a kind of archive of the remote past. | Our genes are a kind of archive of the remote past. |
759 | 00:45:33,163 | 00:45:37,370 | They go through us to the remote future. | They go through us to the remote future. |
760 | 00:45:37,490 | 00:45:40,344 | Henry Dawkins may be my four greats grandfather | Henry Dawkins may be my four greats grandfather |
761 | 00:45:40,464 | 00:45:42,809 | and he's put some genes in here, | and he's put some genes in here, |
762 | 00:45:42,810 | 00:45:45,701 | but my two hundred million greats grandfather... | but my two hundred million greats grandfather... |
763 | 00:45:45,724 | 00:45:47,567 | was a fish, and, by the way, | was a fish, and, by the way, |
764 | 00:45:47,590 | 00:45:51,339 | the same fish was your two hundred million greats grandfather too. | the same fish was your two hundred million greats grandfather too. |
765 | 00:45:51,529 | 00:45:55,690 | Amazingly, even he has put some genes in here, | Amazingly, even he has put some genes in here, |
766 | 00:45:55,918 | 00:45:59,596 | and they, too, have a chance of going on to the remote future. | and they, too, have a chance of going on to the remote future. |
767 | 00:46:01,403 | 00:46:04,477 | Our genes are, in a sense, immortal. | Our genes are, in a sense, immortal. |
768 | 00:46:04,597 | 00:46:08,289 | That's not comforting in the way the soul is supposed to be, | That's not comforting in the way the soul is supposed to be, |
769 | 00:46:08,290 | 00:46:12,528 | but it is a wonderful thought and it is true. | but it is a wonderful thought and it is true. |
770 | 00:46:13,850 | 00:46:17,911 | We may argue about whether we have an immortal soul | We may argue about whether we have an immortal soul |
771 | 00:46:17,926 | 00:46:22,210 | that survives our death, but one thing science tells us for sure | that survives our death, but one thing science tells us for sure |
772 | 00:46:22,370 | 00:46:25,769 | is that if there's anything that's immortal in our bodies, | is that if there's anything that's immortal in our bodies, |
773 | 00:46:25,770 | 00:46:27,676 | it is our genes. | it is our genes. |
774 | 00:46:59,872 | 00:47:04,550 | Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd | Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd |