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1 00:00:06,780 00:00:09,830 More and more of us realise there is no God, More and more of us realise there is no God,
2 00:00:10,090 00:00:13,470 and yet religion still has a hold over us. and yet religion still has a hold over us.
3 00:00:14,501 00:00:18,060 I think ideas of saints and sinners, heaven and hell I think ideas of saints and sinners, heaven and hell
4 00:00:18,068 00:00:20,110 still shape our thinking. still shape our thinking.
5 00:00:20,905 00:00:23,750 I want to give you a scientific alternative. I want to give you a scientific alternative.
6 00:00:24,943 00:00:28,910 This series is not about whether God exists or not. This series is not about whether God exists or not.
7 00:00:29,170 00:00:31,537 It explores more challenging questions. It explores more challenging questions.
8 00:00:31,657 00:00:33,015 I'm going to be asking I'm going to be asking
9 00:00:33,038 00:00:34,767 what happens as we move on what happens as we move on
10 00:00:34,821 00:00:37,025 and leave religion behind. and leave religion behind.
11 00:00:37,145 00:00:39,422 What will guide and inspire us What will guide and inspire us
12 00:00:39,542 00:00:42,470 in a world free of all gods? in a world free of all gods?
13 00:00:44,860 00:00:48,470 How can an atheist find meaning in life? How can an atheist find meaning in life?
14 00:00:49,220 00:00:50,535 How can we face death How can we face death
15 00:00:51,041 00:00:53,190 without the comfort of the afterlife? without the comfort of the afterlife?
16 00:00:53,744 00:00:57,790 And how should we think about right and wrong? And how should we think about right and wrong?
17 00:00:58,592 00:01:01,004 I have to believe there is a plan I have to believe there is a plan
18 00:01:01,124 00:01:03,871 and that God is going to accomplish something through this. and that God is going to accomplish something through this.
19 00:01:04,261 00:01:06,824 I suppose Jesus is an unpaid baby-sitter. I suppose Jesus is an unpaid baby-sitter.
20 00:01:06,944 00:01:09,070 It's like, if I'm not watching you, Jesus is. It's like, if I'm not watching you, Jesus is.
21 00:01:09,774 00:01:13,271 So, do you think that we in the West are too materialistic? So, do you think that we in the West are too materialistic?
22 00:01:13,391 00:01:14,200 I think so. I think so.
23 00:01:15,495 00:01:18,150 This film is about sin. This film is about sin.
24 00:01:18,619 00:01:21,148 Even today, most of us still carry around Even today, most of us still carry around
25 00:01:21,491 00:01:24,670 the religious notion of sin to tell right from wrong. the religious notion of sin to tell right from wrong.
26 00:01:25,729 00:01:27,024 People ask me, People ask me,
27 00:01:27,253 00:01:30,552 "If you give up religion, doesn't that mean anything goes? "If you give up religion, doesn't that mean anything goes?
28 00:01:30,672 00:01:34,230 Why not indulge in temptations, in lust and greed? Why not indulge in temptations, in lust and greed?
29 00:01:35,396 00:01:37,838 Why not rape, why not steal?" Why not rape, why not steal?"
30 00:01:39,087 00:01:42,221 I'm going to explore the power the religious idea of sin I'm going to explore the power the religious idea of sin
31 00:01:42,586 00:01:44,341 has over our lives, has over our lives,
32 00:01:44,385 00:01:46,533 explain why it's unhelpful, explain why it's unhelpful,
33 00:01:46,830 00:01:49,365 and show how we can use reason and science and show how we can use reason and science
34 00:01:49,380 00:01:51,910 to find a better way to be good. to find a better way to be good.
35 00:02:05,349 00:02:06,903 (REPORTER): Cars were set alight, (REPORTER): Cars were set alight,
36 00:02:08,396 00:02:10,301 and shops looted... and shops looted...
37 00:02:14,316 00:02:15,392 If we don't believe, If we don't believe,
38 00:02:15,512 00:02:18,483 "God is watching over us", we abandon morality! "God is watching over us", we abandon morality!
39 00:02:18,850 00:02:20,733 That's what people say to me. That's what people say to me.
40 00:02:20,853 00:02:22,377 Are they right? Are they right?
41 00:02:32,694 00:02:34,119 This is London in 2011. This is London in 2011.
42 00:02:34,764 00:02:37,028 For the past two nights there have been riots, For the past two nights there have been riots,
43 00:02:37,034 00:02:39,479 there have been windows smashed, there has been looting. there have been windows smashed, there has been looting.
44 00:02:39,599 00:02:40,646 It's hard to know why. It's hard to know why.
45 00:02:40,766 00:02:43,579 There doesn't seem to be any very well articulated There doesn't seem to be any very well articulated
46 00:02:43,699 00:02:46,083 ...political motive, no religious motive. ...political motive, no religious motive.
47 00:02:46,270 00:02:49,037 It seems to be just more or less anarchy for its own sake. It seems to be just more or less anarchy for its own sake.
48 00:02:49,163 00:02:50,391 Looting for its own sake. Looting for its own sake.
49 00:02:51,723 00:02:55,353 I suppose it's showing how fragile the bonds of society are. I suppose it's showing how fragile the bonds of society are.
50 00:02:55,376 00:02:57,694 How easily broken they can be. How easily broken they can be.
51 00:02:57,814 00:03:00,590 It's really quite frightening, in a way. It's really quite frightening, in a way.
52 00:03:04,737 00:03:07,739 Before I look at what reason can tell us about this, Before I look at what reason can tell us about this,
53 00:03:08,174 00:03:11,190 I want to explore the case for religious morality. I want to explore the case for religious morality.
54 00:03:12,886 00:03:15,892 To understand the challenge facing atheists like me, To understand the challenge facing atheists like me,
55 00:03:16,012 00:03:19,067 you need to meet someone like Ray Lewis. you need to meet someone like Ray Lewis.
56 00:03:19,905 00:03:22,109 - Evening, boys. (BOYS) - Evening, sir. - Evening, boys. (BOYS) - Evening, sir.
57 00:03:22,229 00:03:24,074 - How are you? (BOYS) - Fine, sir. - How are you? (BOYS) - Fine, sir.
58 00:03:24,194 00:03:25,790 Newham, east London. Newham, east London.
59 00:03:26,356 00:03:29,403 In a neighbourhood ravaged by drugs and gang violence, In a neighbourhood ravaged by drugs and gang violence,
60 00:03:29,837 00:03:32,474 youth workers are fighting back with a tough love approach, youth workers are fighting back with a tough love approach,
61 00:03:33,129 00:03:35,174 inspired by Christian faith. inspired by Christian faith.
62 00:03:36,379 00:03:39,646 Who's going to lead us in grace today before supper? Who's going to lead us in grace today before supper?
63 00:03:39,766 00:03:40,803 Well done, Moses. Well done, Moses.
64 00:03:40,818 00:03:42,658 Come down the front here, son. Come down the front here, son.
65 00:03:43,710 00:03:45,508 Les bow our heads in prayer. Les bow our heads in prayer.
66 00:03:46,734 00:03:48,915 God bless this food as we eat today. God bless this food as we eat today.
67 00:03:49,035 00:03:52,388 Some of the riots that we saw in different parts of England Some of the riots that we saw in different parts of England
68 00:03:52,426 00:03:55,071 reveal that we are in a great state of crisis. reveal that we are in a great state of crisis.
69 00:03:55,191 00:03:58,787 I think what was going on was a sense in which... I think what was going on was a sense in which...
70 00:03:59,069 00:04:00,680 Frankly, why not? Frankly, why not?
71 00:04:00,800 00:04:04,670 What is it that will restrain me from getting involved in that? What is it that will restrain me from getting involved in that?
72 00:04:05,125 00:04:07,456 That's what we're working with, against that backdrop. That's what we're working with, against that backdrop.
73 00:04:07,464 00:04:09,369 We've got to carve out something We've got to carve out something
74 00:04:09,422 00:04:11,540 where the boys know where they are. where the boys know where they are.
75 00:04:14,237 00:04:17,418 Is the discipline stricter here than it is at your normal school? Is the discipline stricter here than it is at your normal school?
76 00:04:17,615 00:04:19,510 (ALL) Yeah. (ALL) Yeah.
77 00:04:19,700 00:04:24,054 SS- And do you get taught about things like what's right and wrong? - Yeah. SS- And do you get taught about things like what's right and wrong? - Yeah.
78 00:04:24,083 00:04:26,592 What do you learn about that? What do you learn about that?
79 00:04:27,277 00:04:28,557 - Leadership? - Yeah? - Leadership? - Yeah?
80 00:04:28,677 00:04:31,192 We're told leadership traits, which is... We're told leadership traits, which is...
81 00:04:31,241 00:04:34,473 bearing, courage, decisiveness, enthusiasm, bearing, courage, decisiveness, enthusiasm,
82 00:04:34,593 00:04:39,523 initiative, integrity, judgment, knowledge, perseverance. initiative, integrity, judgment, knowledge, perseverance.
83 00:04:39,568 00:04:41,176 Very good. Perseverance?... Very good. Very good. Perseverance?... Very good.
84 00:04:42,532 00:04:45,390 I think that this country, despite its riches, I think that this country, despite its riches,
85 00:04:45,650 00:04:47,430 is morally bankrupt. is morally bankrupt.
86 00:04:47,917 00:04:50,911 I was talking to a young man recently, the other day, and he said, I was talking to a young man recently, the other day, and he said,
87 00:04:50,957 00:04:52,816 "I've been here 18 months, "I've been here 18 months,
88 00:04:52,936 00:04:55,536 and I realise I don't have to lie and steal". and I realise I don't have to lie and steal".
89 00:04:55,909 00:04:58,523 - He realised that he doesn't have to do it. - Yeah. - He realised that he doesn't have to do it. - Yeah.
90 00:04:58,979 00:05:00,473 He's 14 years of age. He's 14 years of age.
91 00:05:00,496 00:05:02,310 I said, "What do you mean?" I said, "What do you mean?"
92 00:05:02,842 00:05:05,197 He said, "Well, every time somebody asked me a question, He said, "Well, every time somebody asked me a question,
93 00:05:05,317 00:05:08,526 it never dawned on me to tell the truth. it never dawned on me to tell the truth.
94 00:05:08,892 00:05:13,425 I've grown up in a culture where everybody lies, everybody cheats, I've grown up in a culture where everybody lies, everybody cheats,
95 00:05:13,432 00:05:14,359 everybody deceives". everybody deceives".
96 00:05:18,347 00:05:22,637 Ray Lewis makes a powerful case for the clear-cut rules of religion. Ray Lewis makes a powerful case for the clear-cut rules of religion.
97 00:05:23,648 00:05:29,110 For him, God and an afterlife instil a sense of responsibility in this life. For him, God and an afterlife instil a sense of responsibility in this life.
98 00:05:30,361 00:05:33,870 I believe that there is a spirit in a man and a woman I believe that there is a spirit in a man and a woman
99 00:05:34,112 00:05:37,163 that goes on beyond, and therefore at some point that goes on beyond, and therefore at some point
100 00:05:37,201 00:05:38,876 that has to come into account. that has to come into account.
101 00:05:38,889 00:05:40,603 Now, that's what I choose to believe. Now, that's what I choose to believe.
102 00:05:40,619 00:05:43,544 I'm not going to argue for the science of it. I'm not going to argue for the science of it.
103 00:05:43,583 00:05:46,143 But what I would say is I actually do believe that But what I would say is I actually do believe that
104 00:05:46,263 00:05:50,172 there will be a point at which we have to give an account there will be a point at which we have to give an account
105 00:05:50,209 00:05:51,946 for the lives we've been given. for the lives we've been given.
106 00:05:52,066 00:05:56,096 I think there is no evidence that we do survive death. I think there is no evidence that we do survive death.
107 00:05:56,134 00:05:58,937 And so, this life is what we've got, and we should... And so, this life is what we've got, and we should...
108 00:05:59,057 00:06:01,688 That should really redouble our efforts to make this life worthwhile, That should really redouble our efforts to make this life worthwhile,
109 00:06:01,704 00:06:03,136 - ..not just for ourselves. - Right. - ..not just for ourselves. - Right.
110 00:06:03,151 00:06:05,505 But for other people. Try to make the world a better place, But for other people. Try to make the world a better place,
111 00:06:05,526 00:06:07,033 cos it's the only world we've got. cos it's the only world we've got.
112 00:06:07,153 00:06:08,972 I wonder whether or not you have... I wonder whether or not you have...
113 00:06:09,327 00:06:12,968 ..rejected the trappings, ..rejected the trappings,
114 00:06:12,999 00:06:15,225 the bullshit of religion, the bullshit of religion,
115 00:06:15,345 00:06:17,160 rather than looking behind it. rather than looking behind it.
116 00:06:17,280 00:06:20,830 Because, you see, for me, to look beyond this life Because, you see, for me, to look beyond this life
117 00:06:21,227 00:06:23,825 gives this life a greater sense of focus. gives this life a greater sense of focus.
118 00:06:24,198 00:06:26,559 That, I think, is something that That, I think, is something that
119 00:06:26,679 00:06:29,652 religion brings and gives and celebrates. religion brings and gives and celebrates.
120 00:06:30,069 00:06:32,187 And without that, Richard, And without that, Richard,
121 00:06:32,655 00:06:33,647 we've just got... we've just got...
122 00:06:33,767 00:06:35,586 intellectual masturbation, haven't we? intellectual masturbation, haven't we?
123 00:06:35,884 00:06:39,375 We don't all have your intellect and your scientific genius, We don't all have your intellect and your scientific genius,
124 00:06:39,390 00:06:41,269 so how are we going to get to the point so how are we going to get to the point
125 00:06:41,284 00:06:43,303 that we can work it all out that we can work it all out
126 00:06:43,318 00:06:44,956 in this kind of fuddy-duddy world? in this kind of fuddy-duddy world?
127 00:06:44,968 00:06:48,556 I have no illusions... I mean, it's very, very difficult. I have no illusions... I mean, it's very, very difficult.
128 00:06:49,290 00:06:52,198 My solution would not be a religious one. My solution would not be a religious one.
129 00:06:52,318 00:06:54,369 You try to educate people, You try to educate people,
130 00:06:54,489 00:06:57,003 which you're doing brilliantly, it seems to me. which you're doing brilliantly, it seems to me.
131 00:06:57,026 00:07:00,104 We could sit down together and talk to each other and say, We could sit down together and talk to each other and say,
132 00:07:00,522 00:07:02,960 "I would not wish to live in the kind of society..." "I would not wish to live in the kind of society..."
133 00:07:02,983 00:07:07,440 But, Richard, I hear you, but without religion, do you not lose power? But, Richard, I hear you, but without religion, do you not lose power?
134 00:07:07,560 00:07:10,843 What drives me in this work is some sense of the spirit. What drives me in this work is some sense of the spirit.
135 00:07:10,963 00:07:13,006 Martin Luther King, he talked about soul force. Martin Luther King, he talked about soul force.
136 00:07:13,045 00:07:14,850 Gandhi was very much leaning Gandhi was very much leaning
137 00:07:14,851 00:07:18,279 on his spiritual sense of God, if you like. on his spiritual sense of God, if you like.
138 00:07:18,399 00:07:20,557 If you don't have that, how is it going to happen? If you don't have that, how is it going to happen?
139 00:07:20,677 00:07:22,884 There's no power. There's no power.
140 00:07:26,706 00:07:27,927 This is challenging. This is challenging.
141 00:07:28,047 00:07:31,361 There's no doubt that Ray Lewis is being very effective. There's no doubt that Ray Lewis is being very effective.
142 00:07:31,603 00:07:34,666 I can see the value of invoking God's authority, I can see the value of invoking God's authority,
143 00:07:34,724 00:07:37,514 and great leaders like Martin Luther King and Gandhi, and great leaders like Martin Luther King and Gandhi,
144 00:07:37,571 00:07:39,447 who had religion, too. who had religion, too.
145 00:07:39,567 00:07:41,470 But there's a problem. But there's a problem.
146 00:07:42,900 00:07:45,497 This approach is about persuading children This approach is about persuading children
147 00:07:45,520 00:07:48,309 that they'll be held to account in an afterlife. that they'll be held to account in an afterlife.
148 00:07:48,830 00:07:50,118 But there is no evidence for that, But there is no evidence for that,
149 00:07:50,125 00:07:53,685 and the more you think about it, the more implausible it seems. and the more you think about it, the more implausible it seems.
150 00:07:55,086 00:07:58,439 And also, do we really want to take our morals And also, do we really want to take our morals
151 00:07:58,446 00:08:04,046 straight from the rather rigid rulebook of an ancient desert tribe? straight from the rather rigid rulebook of an ancient desert tribe?
152 00:08:10,303 00:08:13,808 - Yeah, it's your move. - All righty, then... steady! - Yeah, it's your move. - All righty, then... steady!
153 00:08:17,229 00:08:19,011 You remember King Solomon? You remember King Solomon?
154 00:08:19,131 00:08:20,544 Yeah! Well, I never met him personally. Yeah! Well, I never met him personally.
155 00:08:20,552 00:08:22,403 He was one of the most wisest kings He was one of the most wisest kings
156 00:08:22,411 00:08:24,453 that ever walked the face of the planet Earth, that ever walked the face of the planet Earth,
157 00:08:24,887 00:08:27,740 but his wisdom did not come overnight. but his wisdom did not come overnight.
158 00:08:28,646 00:08:30,453 He had to humble his spirit He had to humble his spirit
159 00:08:30,573 00:08:33,820 and bow down to the true and living God. and bow down to the true and living God.
160 00:08:35,658 00:08:39,980 People tell me that if there is no God, there is no morality. People tell me that if there is no God, there is no morality.
161 00:08:40,210 00:08:42,453 It's true that throughout human history, It's true that throughout human history,
162 00:08:42,460 00:08:44,982 religion has handed down simple rules religion has handed down simple rules
163 00:08:45,005 00:08:46,812 on what's good and bad. on what's good and bad.
164 00:08:48,173 00:08:51,982 But it's a belief system rooted in a Bronze Age view of the world, But it's a belief system rooted in a Bronze Age view of the world,
165 00:08:52,102 00:08:55,830 obsessed with sex and policing the purity of the tribe. obsessed with sex and policing the purity of the tribe.
166 00:08:57,709 00:09:00,391 Before I set out the rational view of morality, Before I set out the rational view of morality,
167 00:09:00,511 00:09:04,830 I want to explain the problems with the old religious moral codes. I want to explain the problems with the old religious moral codes.
168 00:09:07,576 00:09:08,345 Here we go. Here we go.
169 00:09:09,283 00:09:11,477 Understanding the enemy - three enemies we face: Understanding the enemy - three enemies we face:
170 00:09:11,500 00:09:12,818 The world, the Devil and the flesh. The world, the Devil and the flesh.
171 00:09:12,831 00:09:14,896 I'm going to go quickly through the world and the Devil. I'm going to go quickly through the world and the Devil.
172 00:09:14,939 00:09:17,550 We're going to spend most of our time dealing with the flesh. We're going to spend most of our time dealing with the flesh.
173 00:09:18,111 00:09:19,948 What we don't want to do is get hung up on, What we don't want to do is get hung up on,
174 00:09:19,961 00:09:21,340 "Oh, the Devil made me do it". "Oh, the Devil made me do it".
175 00:09:21,348 00:09:24,319 We just want to see how the Devil interacts and specifically We just want to see how the Devil interacts and specifically
176 00:09:24,439 00:09:26,830 how Jesus modelled some countermeasures. how Jesus modelled some countermeasures.
177 00:09:27,662 00:09:30,046 This is Every Man's Battle, This is Every Man's Battle,
178 00:09:30,069 00:09:32,705 a Christian ministry that runs hundreds of workshops a Christian ministry that runs hundreds of workshops
179 00:09:32,721 00:09:34,190 across America, every year. across America, every year.
180 00:09:36,009 00:09:38,188 Here, they adapt ancient scriptures Here, they adapt ancient scriptures
181 00:09:38,218 00:09:40,702 to try to fight modern male temptations to try to fight modern male temptations
182 00:09:40,717 00:09:42,363 like internet porn. like internet porn.
183 00:09:44,154 00:09:48,595 Sin offers us the opportunity to meet a legitimate need in an illegitimate way. Sin offers us the opportunity to meet a legitimate need in an illegitimate way.
184 00:09:48,715 00:09:51,552 Les talk about the body for a minute and masturbation. Les talk about the body for a minute and masturbation.
185 00:09:51,872 00:09:53,312 If you continue to do it, If you continue to do it,
186 00:09:53,327 00:09:56,198 you will be perpetually locked into this struggle you will be perpetually locked into this struggle
187 00:09:56,236 00:09:57,539 with your sexual integrity. with your sexual integrity.
188 00:09:57,836 00:09:59,878 Does this makee sense? Does this makee sense?
189 00:10:00,221 00:10:01,437 Questions. Questions.
190 00:10:05,866 00:10:08,159 Christianity has always been peculiarly judgmental Christianity has always been peculiarly judgmental
191 00:10:08,723 00:10:11,390 about what people get up to in the bedroom. about what people get up to in the bedroom.
192 00:10:12,220 00:10:17,223 But do we really want to brand everyday thoughts as sinful? But do we really want to brand everyday thoughts as sinful?
193 00:10:19,189 00:10:22,190 "I don't deserve my family" is the shame message they would hear. "I don't deserve my family" is the shame message they would hear.
194 00:10:22,366 00:10:24,400 These are in a list of These are in a list of
195 00:10:24,445 00:10:26,997 probably 40 or 50 different shame messages probably 40 or 50 different shame messages
196 00:10:27,027 00:10:28,178 they can choose from, they can choose from,
197 00:10:28,298 00:10:29,984 or they can write in their own. or they can write in their own.
198 00:10:30,167 00:10:32,079 A couple of months ago, we had a guy here who... A couple of months ago, we had a guy here who...
199 00:10:32,582 00:10:34,398 ..his shame message was: ..his shame message was:
200 00:10:34,421 00:10:35,876 "I'm a (BLEEP) idiot". "I'm a (BLEEP) idiot".
201 00:10:36,440 00:10:37,964 That wasn't on your list? That wasn't on your list?
202 00:10:37,987 00:10:39,198 That was not on our list. That was not on our list.
203 00:10:39,318 00:10:41,647 Aren't you being very hard, on yourselves? Aren't you being very hard, on yourselves?
204 00:10:42,195 00:10:43,771 No, I don't think so. No, I don't think so.
205 00:10:44,170 00:10:47,589 My story is filled with pornography, masturbation, online affairs, My story is filled with pornography, masturbation, online affairs,
206 00:10:47,628 00:10:49,479 that eventually went offline. So... that eventually went offline. So...
207 00:10:49,599 00:10:52,150 I came to the point of really just being suicidal. I came to the point of really just being suicidal.
208 00:10:52,410 00:10:54,750 I hated my behaviour, I hated myself. I hated my behaviour, I hated myself.
209 00:10:55,245 00:10:58,156 I prayed a bajillion times for God to show up and he wouldn't. I prayed a bajillion times for God to show up and he wouldn't.
210 00:10:58,163 00:10:59,361 It's like he was silent. It's like he was silent.
211 00:10:59,481 00:11:02,440 I wasn't about to tell my wife or any of my friends. I wasn't about to tell my wife or any of my friends.
212 00:11:02,560 00:11:05,314 My wife would divorce me and my friends would disown me, I thought. My wife would divorce me and my friends would disown me, I thought.
213 00:11:05,434 00:11:06,767 So I came to this place and... So I came to this place and...
214 00:11:06,887 00:11:09,160 the only way for this to end is for me to kill myself. the only way for this to end is for me to kill myself.
215 00:11:09,280 00:11:10,927 I had this moment in the shower I had this moment in the shower
216 00:11:10,942 00:11:13,312 where I fell to the bottom of the shower, where I fell to the bottom of the shower,
217 00:11:13,335 00:11:16,405 in this puddle of tears and vomit and soapy water in this puddle of tears and vomit and soapy water
218 00:11:16,523 00:11:20,670 under the weight of the reality of my life, that I can't fix this. under the weight of the reality of my life, that I can't fix this.
219 00:11:20,821 00:11:23,070 I cried out to God in surrender, I cried out to God in surrender,
220 00:11:23,488 00:11:25,019 "You have to fix this". "You have to fix this".
221 00:11:25,057 00:11:27,150 That's when everything changed for me. That's when everything changed for me.
222 00:11:27,593 00:11:29,932 This is my wife Shelly and my son Truman This is my wife Shelly and my son Truman
223 00:11:29,954 00:11:32,049 a couple of years ago hiking in Vale. a couple of years ago hiking in Vale.
224 00:11:32,064 00:11:34,868 When I think about the way that this day went, When I think about the way that this day went,
225 00:11:35,232 00:11:36,847 or I think about that day right there, or I think about that day right there,
226 00:11:36,870 00:11:39,190 the last thing I want to do is cheat on that woman. the last thing I want to do is cheat on that woman.
227 00:11:39,879 00:11:43,081 Right?!... The last thing I want to do is tell this little boy, Right?!... The last thing I want to do is tell this little boy,
228 00:11:43,201 00:11:45,240 "Hey, your dad was an adulterer "Hey, your dad was an adulterer
229 00:11:45,261 00:11:46,655 and then he got his life right, and then he got his life right,
230 00:11:46,662 00:11:48,697 and then he wrecked it again". and then he wrecked it again".
231 00:11:49,817 00:11:51,392 I don't want to have that conversation. I don't want to have that conversation.
232 00:11:57,280 00:11:59,657 Jason no doubt has laudable aims, Jason no doubt has laudable aims,
233 00:12:00,411 00:12:02,792 but does this preaching work? but does this preaching work?
234 00:12:03,234 00:12:07,707 Do religious believers resist temptation better than anyone else? Do religious believers resist temptation better than anyone else?
235 00:12:18,213 00:12:23,070 In 2011, the psychologist Darrel Ray scoured the evidence. In 2011, the psychologist Darrel Ray scoured the evidence.
236 00:12:23,330 00:12:25,266 Through an online survey, Through an online survey,
237 00:12:25,312 00:12:29,430 he interrogated over 14,000 people who had left their churches, he interrogated over 14,000 people who had left their churches,
238 00:12:29,690 00:12:33,550 about their sex lives before and after religion. about their sex lives before and after religion.
239 00:12:36,835 00:12:38,260 We asked four questions: We asked four questions:
240 00:12:38,380 00:12:41,521 when did you start masturbating, when did you start having oral sex, when did you start masturbating, when did you start having oral sex,
241 00:12:41,536 00:12:44,066 when did you start petting and when did you start having intercourse? when did you start petting and when did you start having intercourse?
242 00:12:44,103 00:12:47,361 And we've compared those people who were raised most religious And we've compared those people who were raised most religious
243 00:12:47,392 00:12:49,856 with those who were raised least religious. with those who were raised least religious.
244 00:12:49,976 00:12:52,592 We had thousands of people in both of these groups, We had thousands of people in both of these groups,
245 00:12:52,620 00:12:54,815 and what we found was there's almost no difference. and what we found was there's almost no difference.
246 00:12:58,693 00:13:00,951 Now, we did see a little bump in pornography. Now, we did see a little bump in pornography.
247 00:13:01,786 00:13:05,357 The older religious people got, the more they use pornography, The older religious people got, the more they use pornography,
248 00:13:05,410 00:13:07,901 and they actually exceed non-religious people, and they actually exceed non-religious people,
249 00:13:08,021 00:13:11,094 by 5 or 10% in the use of pornography. by 5 or 10% in the use of pornography.
250 00:13:12,054 00:13:14,667 Whether you're religious or not, biology happens. Whether you're religious or not, biology happens.
251 00:13:15,452 00:13:18,301 You're going to start masturbating, you're going to start having sex, You're going to start masturbating, you're going to start having sex,
252 00:13:18,421 00:13:20,334 but what's the difference? Guilt! but what's the difference? Guilt!
253 00:13:20,454 00:13:22,763 The religious people feel a lot of guilt about The religious people feel a lot of guilt about
254 00:13:22,883 00:13:24,470 the premarital sex they're having, the premarital sex they're having,
255 00:13:24,653 00:13:26,626 or about the masturbation they've started. or about the masturbation they've started.
256 00:13:26,649 00:13:29,346 And they don't know what to do with it. And they don't know what to do with it.
257 00:13:34,581 00:13:38,608 So, there's really no difference in the actual sexual behaviour So, there's really no difference in the actual sexual behaviour
258 00:13:38,661 00:13:41,199 that religious and non-religious people indulge in. that religious and non-religious people indulge in.
259 00:13:41,245 00:13:43,226 What is different is the guilt they feel? What is different is the guilt they feel?
260 00:13:43,247 00:13:44,338 - Exactly. - Exactly.
261 00:13:44,590 00:13:46,750 And religions preach against pornography, And religions preach against pornography,
262 00:13:46,789 00:13:50,387 preachagainst masturbation, preach against premarital sex, preachagainst masturbation, preach against premarital sex,
263 00:13:50,430 00:13:51,855 and it does no good. and it does no good.
264 00:13:51,901 00:13:53,884 The highest use of pornography in the United States The highest use of pornography in the United States
265 00:13:53,885 00:13:56,036 is in Utah and Mississippi. is in Utah and Mississippi.
266 00:13:57,215 00:13:59,366 These are things that churches preach against These are things that churches preach against
267 00:13:59,486 00:14:02,863 and yet their members are using it even more than secular people do. and yet their members are using it even more than secular people do.
268 00:14:02,983 00:14:05,629 When I give my talks on sex, I often tend to ask, When I give my talks on sex, I often tend to ask,
269 00:14:05,637 00:14:07,069 "How many of you masturbate?" "How many of you masturbate?"
270 00:14:07,122 00:14:10,261 I'll get people raising their hands all over the place, maybe 80 or 90%. I'll get people raising their hands all over the place, maybe 80 or 90%.
271 00:14:10,276 00:14:12,638 Some people will raise both hands! Some people will raise both hands!
272 00:14:13,032 00:14:16,005 If I ask that same question in a religious group, If I ask that same question in a religious group,
273 00:14:16,125 00:14:17,927 nobody will raise their hand! nobody will raise their hand!
274 00:14:18,047 00:14:20,273 But we know that somewhere in the neighbourhood, But we know that somewhere in the neighbourhood,
275 00:14:20,288 00:14:22,103 95% of males masturbate, 95% of males masturbate,
276 00:14:22,223 00:14:24,989 and 70 to 75% of females masturbate. and 70 to 75% of females masturbate.
277 00:14:25,202 00:14:27,147 So if nobody is raising their hand, So if nobody is raising their hand,
278 00:14:27,267 00:14:28,823 that tells us they're lying. that tells us they're lying.
279 00:14:28,943 00:14:30,469 Religious people lie. Religious people lie.
280 00:14:30,736 00:14:33,696 My own grandmother lived 83 years, My own grandmother lived 83 years,
281 00:14:33,816 00:14:35,456 she went to the grave... she went to the grave...
282 00:14:36,181 00:14:38,744 denying that she was ever divorced, denying that she was ever divorced,
283 00:14:39,068 00:14:41,062 because her religious beliefs said because her religious beliefs said
284 00:14:41,182 00:14:43,813 divorced people are condemned and damned. divorced people are condemned and damned.
285 00:14:43,933 00:14:45,175 So she never admitted it. So she never admitted it.
286 00:14:45,213 00:14:46,493 We all knew she had, We all knew she had,
287 00:14:46,613 00:14:50,340 but that's the power of religion to hold an entire lifetime hostage. but that's the power of religion to hold an entire lifetime hostage.
288 00:14:50,391 00:14:51,950 That's a lot of pain. That's a lot of pain.
289 00:15:02,370 00:15:04,218 So the extraordinary thing is that So the extraordinary thing is that
290 00:15:04,233 00:15:07,823 not only does religion fail to stop people sinning, not only does religion fail to stop people sinning,
291 00:15:07,943 00:15:11,230 it also forces them to live a lie. it also forces them to live a lie.
292 00:15:11,715 00:15:15,950 The most powerful example of this I found in Paris. The most powerful example of this I found in Paris.
293 00:15:16,660 00:15:19,846 Here we can see religious tradition for what it is, Here we can see religious tradition for what it is,
294 00:15:19,966 00:15:23,030 as the lies spiral into hypocrisy. as the lies spiral into hypocrisy.
295 00:15:27,273 00:15:28,632 A few hundred metres A few hundred metres
296 00:15:28,752 00:15:31,677 from the smart boutiques of the Champs-Elysees in Paris, from the smart boutiques of the Champs-Elysees in Paris,
297 00:15:32,096 00:15:34,732 the plastic surgeon Dr Marc Abecassis the plastic surgeon Dr Marc Abecassis
298 00:15:34,953 00:15:37,628 can cover up the sins of the past. can cover up the sins of the past.
299 00:15:39,565 00:15:42,384 He specialises in repairing the hymen membrane He specialises in repairing the hymen membrane
300 00:15:42,504 00:15:44,611 in women's vaginas. in women's vaginas.
301 00:15:44,731 00:15:47,658 To all appearances, he turns women who have had sex To all appearances, he turns women who have had sex
302 00:15:47,778 00:15:49,430 back into virgins again. back into virgins again.
303 00:15:51,790 00:15:55,710 You can ask yourself as a surgeon, is it fair? You can ask yourself as a surgeon, is it fair?
304 00:15:55,905 00:15:59,437 Am I in the right path to do that? Am I in the right path to do that?
305 00:15:59,557 00:16:02,743 And these are questions that we ask a lot to the patients. And these are questions that we ask a lot to the patients.
306 00:16:02,934 00:16:05,868 - Are you going to be sincere doing that, miss? - Indeed. - Are you going to be sincere doing that, miss? - Indeed.
307 00:16:05,896 00:16:06,483 Yes. Yes.
308 00:16:06,536 00:16:13,340 Aren't you building a wedding or a relation on a lie? Aren't you building a wedding or a relation on a lie?
309 00:16:13,766 00:16:17,227 And you know... More and more, I ask these questions, And you know... More and more, I ask these questions,
310 00:16:17,347 00:16:19,757 more and more I have the same answers. more and more I have the same answers.
311 00:16:19,877 00:16:21,374 They just ask me, They just ask me,
312 00:16:21,494 00:16:24,030 "Dr Abecassis, who do you think you are? "Dr Abecassis, who do you think you are?
313 00:16:24,353 00:16:27,745 Maybe I'm not going to be a virgin in the facts, but... Maybe I'm not going to be a virgin in the facts, but...
314 00:16:27,996 00:16:30,497 I want to rehabilitate myself. I want to rehabilitate myself.
315 00:16:30,617 00:16:32,949 I want to restore my integrity. I want to restore my integrity.
316 00:16:33,247 00:16:35,717 This is a pureness This is a pureness
317 00:16:35,837 00:16:40,870 to give back to the person I shall love or I shall marry with". to give back to the person I shall love or I shall marry with".
318 00:16:41,130 00:16:44,348 But this hymen reconstruction, it's just... But this hymen reconstruction, it's just...
319 00:16:44,767 00:16:47,910 symbolic of something which is not there. symbolic of something which is not there.
320 00:16:48,104 00:16:49,972 It's a lie!... It's a lie!...
321 00:16:51,084 00:16:52,627 It's a lie for you! It's a lie for you!
322 00:16:52,747 00:16:53,745 It's a lie for you. It's a lie for you.
323 00:16:55,472 00:16:59,520 Dr Abecassis performs around four of these operations every week... Dr Abecassis performs around four of these operations every week...
324 00:16:59,786 00:17:01,904 and demand is growing. and demand is growing.
325 00:17:02,484 00:17:05,702 The majority of patients are Algerian Muslims, The majority of patients are Algerian Muslims,
326 00:17:05,822 00:17:09,110 and for many, sadly, this is not some luxury option and for many, sadly, this is not some luxury option
327 00:17:09,533 00:17:11,575 but grim necessity. but grim necessity.
328 00:17:12,844 00:17:13,989 They tell you, They tell you,
329 00:17:14,109 00:17:15,409 "My brother is going to kill me". "My brother is going to kill me".
330 00:17:15,529 00:17:18,680 There is this bad situation in which they are going to be There is this bad situation in which they are going to be
331 00:17:18,734 00:17:22,666 if they don't present an intact membrane. if they don't present an intact membrane.
332 00:17:22,719 00:17:26,468 That means if they don't bleed?!... Does it so? That means if they don't bleed?!... Does it so?
333 00:17:26,727 00:17:29,016 They know today more and more They know today more and more
334 00:17:29,062 00:17:31,751 that they are not obliged to bleed, that they are not obliged to bleed,
335 00:17:31,789 00:17:36,232 but they know that if there will be a resistance but they know that if there will be a resistance
336 00:17:36,529 00:17:39,828 during the intercourse, things are going to be all right. during the intercourse, things are going to be all right.
337 00:17:39,948 00:17:41,384 And he is going to feel... And he is going to feel...
338 00:17:41,504 00:17:43,647 ..the husband is going to feel that there is something. ..the husband is going to feel that there is something.
339 00:17:44,058 00:17:47,616 (TRANSLATION) Being of Algerian origin... (TRANSLATION) Being of Algerian origin...
340 00:17:47,944 00:17:51,540 For her own safety, this patient has asked to remain anonymous. For her own safety, this patient has asked to remain anonymous.
341 00:17:52,980 00:17:55,218 (TRANSLATION) I don't risk death. (TRANSLATION) I don't risk death.
342 00:17:55,704 00:17:56,732 I don't think so, I don't think so,
343 00:17:56,748 00:18:00,390 because after all I have a family which remains quite humane, because after all I have a family which remains quite humane,
344 00:18:01,212 00:18:03,830 but I do risk being set apart and judged. but I do risk being set apart and judged.
345 00:18:06,019 00:18:10,857 In North African society, you don't wash your dirty linen in public. In North African society, you don't wash your dirty linen in public.
346 00:18:12,411 00:18:15,153 Religious faith is supposed to make us pure, Religious faith is supposed to make us pure,
347 00:18:15,273 00:18:17,814 but this woman is caught between two sins - but this woman is caught between two sins -
348 00:18:17,934 00:18:20,750 public shame and private deception. public shame and private deception.
349 00:18:23,256 00:18:26,996 I think in front of God, I shall be alone. I think in front of God, I shall be alone.
350 00:18:27,116 00:18:31,089 In front of my community, my image may also tarnish my family. In front of my community, my image may also tarnish my family.
351 00:18:31,209 00:18:32,847 I am not alone. I am not alone.
352 00:18:32,901 00:18:34,520 You see what I mean? You see what I mean?
353 00:18:34,640 00:18:37,765 That's to say, it's not just me they'll be judging. That's to say, it's not just me they'll be judging.
354 00:18:37,796 00:18:42,459 They'll be judging my parents, my grandparents, my uncles, my aunts. They'll be judging my parents, my grandparents, my uncles, my aunts.
355 00:18:43,563 00:18:46,689 When I looked around at where I was living, When I looked around at where I was living,
356 00:18:46,809 00:18:51,372 a society full of lies, I don't feel guilty at all. a society full of lies, I don't feel guilty at all.
357 00:18:57,526 00:19:01,190 It's not just that the old notion of sin isn't relevant any more. It's not just that the old notion of sin isn't relevant any more.
358 00:19:01,708 00:19:04,180 We've seen that it clashes with reality, We've seen that it clashes with reality,
359 00:19:04,218 00:19:07,220 it creates guilt and a society full of lies. it creates guilt and a society full of lies.
360 00:19:12,145 00:19:14,550 Next, I want to leave God behind Next, I want to leave God behind
361 00:19:14,713 00:19:19,452 and explore what science can tell us about the true origin of morality. and explore what science can tell us about the true origin of morality.
362 00:19:31,610 00:19:36,100 Some people think that if we get rid of God and all religious values, Some people think that if we get rid of God and all religious values,
363 00:19:36,220 00:19:38,810 all that's left is anarchy. all that's left is anarchy.
364 00:19:39,625 00:19:43,382 But I want to show that there is order without religion. But I want to show that there is order without religion.
365 00:19:44,090 00:19:47,130 Let's look at the roots of morality through Darwinian eyes. Let's look at the roots of morality through Darwinian eyes.
366 00:19:49,050 00:19:51,991 One thing we must do is rid ourselves of the idea that One thing we must do is rid ourselves of the idea that
367 00:19:51,999 00:19:54,612 sexual lust is inherently sinful. sexual lust is inherently sinful.
368 00:19:56,646 00:19:58,940 These impulses are universal, These impulses are universal,
369 00:19:58,978 00:20:01,545 and all mammals have evolved ways to manage them. and all mammals have evolved ways to manage them.
370 00:20:05,015 00:20:07,380 What's that funny patch I can see under his arm, there? What's that funny patch I can see under his arm, there?
371 00:20:07,392 00:20:10,428 This lump you can see here is the brachial glands, This lump you can see here is the brachial glands,
372 00:20:10,473 00:20:12,508 and it's where he'll scent mark and it's where he'll scent mark
373 00:20:12,531 00:20:15,503 so the female can smell that he's a good, fit male. so the female can smell that he's a good, fit male.
374 00:20:16,417 00:20:18,826 At Cotswold Wildlife Park, At Cotswold Wildlife Park,
375 00:20:18,946 00:20:22,436 the keepers are trying to get a rare and endangered species, the keepers are trying to get a rare and endangered species,
376 00:20:22,556 00:20:25,619 the greater bamboo lemur, to mate successfully. the greater bamboo lemur, to mate successfully.
377 00:20:27,127 00:20:32,251 But to dothat, they have to carefully observe the rituals of lemur courtship. But to dothat, they have to carefully observe the rituals of lemur courtship.
378 00:20:34,460 00:20:36,992 He's being very good now, he's giving her the calls, He's being very good now, he's giving her the calls,
379 00:20:37,007 00:20:39,011 which are the beginning of his courtship display, which are the beginning of his courtship display,
380 00:20:39,026 00:20:40,352 and his call that he'll do. and his call that he'll do.
381 00:20:40,668 00:20:43,274 There's the tail twitching, and all of this, There's the tail twitching, and all of this,
382 00:20:43,319 00:20:45,944 she becomes more and more interested in his behaviour. she becomes more and more interested in his behaviour.
383 00:20:47,406 00:20:51,553 Perhaps we think of morality in completely the wrong way. Perhaps we think of morality in completely the wrong way.
384 00:20:52,122 00:20:54,286 By observing animals, we see it By observing animals, we see it
385 00:20:54,481 00:20:57,227 not as some set of lofty ideals, not as some set of lofty ideals,
386 00:20:57,456 00:20:59,003 but as a practical system but as a practical system
387 00:20:59,010 00:21:01,402 that enables animals to get along with each other, that enables animals to get along with each other,
388 00:21:01,745 00:21:04,144 reproduce and survive. reproduce and survive.
389 00:21:05,151 00:21:06,812 Jamie, I was once asked by a lawyer Jamie, I was once asked by a lawyer
390 00:21:06,827 00:21:08,793 when he discovered that I was a zoologist, when he discovered that I was a zoologist,
391 00:21:09,293 00:21:12,107 whether animals have a sense of law. whether animals have a sense of law.
392 00:21:12,595 00:21:14,160 And I said, "Well, not exactly law, And I said, "Well, not exactly law,
393 00:21:14,176 00:21:17,911 but like many human societies that don't have lawyers and policeman, but like many human societies that don't have lawyers and policeman,
394 00:21:18,031 00:21:22,403 they have customs and taboos and rules that they follow". they have customs and taboos and rules that they follow".
395 00:21:22,998 00:21:25,321 Yeah, I would say they certainly do. Yeah, I would say they certainly do.
396 00:21:25,441 00:21:27,838 You know, there is almost a feeding order, You know, there is almost a feeding order,
397 00:21:27,845 00:21:31,131 so the dominant animal would get the best of the food or the food first. so the dominant animal would get the best of the food or the food first.
398 00:21:31,251 00:21:34,771 Even if that doesn't mean that others may not try to get in there first, Even if that doesn't mean that others may not try to get in there first,
399 00:21:34,802 00:21:36,652 very much like in human society, very much like in human society,
400 00:21:36,841 00:21:39,975 but if they are seen, they'll certainly fall back into line. but if they are seen, they'll certainly fall back into line.
401 00:21:40,028 00:21:43,249 It's the biggest male, generally, that will breed. It's the biggest male, generally, that will breed.
402 00:21:43,717 00:21:46,734 Critical for any animal's genetic success Critical for any animal's genetic success
403 00:21:46,780 00:21:49,098 are the customs surrounding sex, are the customs surrounding sex,
404 00:21:49,218 00:21:52,842 and the violence and competition that sex can unleash. and the violence and competition that sex can unleash.
405 00:21:53,681 00:21:56,674 364 days of the year, the females are the boss. 364 days of the year, the females are the boss.
406 00:21:56,690 00:21:59,250 The male's very laid-back, he keeps out of the way. The male's very laid-back, he keeps out of the way.
407 00:21:59,288 00:22:02,724 Keeps himself to himself and just tries to avoid trouble, generally. Keeps himself to himself and just tries to avoid trouble, generally.
408 00:22:02,762 00:22:04,674 But on the one day of the year, sometimes more, But on the one day of the year, sometimes more,
409 00:22:04,690 00:22:07,539 that the females become sexually receptive, that the females become sexually receptive,
410 00:22:07,659 00:22:08,720 things change. things change.
411 00:22:08,736 00:22:11,501 Things become very, very lawless for the male, Things become very, very lawless for the male,
412 00:22:11,509 00:22:13,338 and if there was more than one breeding male, and if there was more than one breeding male,
413 00:22:13,339 00:22:14,565 it really is a fight to the death. it really is a fight to the death.
414 00:22:14,685 00:22:16,546 So they fight to the death on that one day? So they fight to the death on that one day?
415 00:22:16,721 00:22:17,689 They can do. They can do.
416 00:22:17,704 00:22:19,746 I mean generally, one animal would be severely injured. I mean generally, one animal would be severely injured.
417 00:22:19,762 00:22:21,675 And they do this things, they do stink fighting, And they do this things, they do stink fighting,
418 00:22:21,698 00:22:25,028 which is very interesting, where they raise their tails towards each other, which is very interesting, where they raise their tails towards each other,
419 00:22:25,081 00:22:28,014 waft them towards each other so they can deter the other male. waft them towards each other so they can deter the other male.
420 00:22:28,134 00:22:30,094 And then they do something called slash fighting, And then they do something called slash fighting,
421 00:22:30,109 00:22:31,694 where they'll run past each other, where they'll run past each other,
422 00:22:31,709 00:22:33,652 and it's very hard to even see they've touched each other, and it's very hard to even see they've touched each other,
423 00:22:33,667 00:22:36,410 but then there will be some terrible slash injuries. but then there will be some terrible slash injuries.
424 00:22:36,530 00:22:37,625 Genuinely in the while... Genuinely in the while...
425 00:22:37,633 00:22:40,109 So like medieval lancers on their horses, So like medieval lancers on their horses,
426 00:22:40,125 00:22:41,443 rushing past each other. rushing past each other.
427 00:22:41,444 00:22:42,835 Very much like that, yes. Very much like that, yes.
428 00:22:43,033 00:22:46,730 So from a very coherent society most of the year, So from a very coherent society most of the year,
429 00:22:46,850 00:22:49,381 it all falls to pieces where sex is concerned. it all falls to pieces where sex is concerned.
430 00:22:52,881 00:22:55,398 This isn't what we'd call morality, This isn't what we'd call morality,
431 00:22:55,446 00:22:57,914 but the customs and taboos we see here but the customs and taboos we see here
432 00:22:57,933 00:23:01,221 help us understand something about sex. help us understand something about sex.
433 00:23:04,959 00:23:09,198 Sex is, on the face of it, a rather bizarre way of passing on genes, Sex is, on the face of it, a rather bizarre way of passing on genes,
434 00:23:09,229 00:23:12,419 since it necessitates joining with another individual, since it necessitates joining with another individual,
435 00:23:12,807 00:23:16,807 each contributing exactly half the genes to each offspring. each contributing exactly half the genes to each offspring.
436 00:23:18,090 00:23:21,670 Many animals devote enormous energy to displaying their attributes Many animals devote enormous energy to displaying their attributes
437 00:23:21,693 00:23:26,221 to would-be mates, signalling they are fit and healthy specimens. to would-be mates, signalling they are fit and healthy specimens.
438 00:23:28,918 00:23:31,478 They advertise through carrying vivid plumage, They advertise through carrying vivid plumage,
439 00:23:31,508 00:23:35,074 vast antlers and horns, or an outsize tail. vast antlers and horns, or an outsize tail.
440 00:23:35,351 00:23:38,967 You might think of it as nature's bling. You might think of it as nature's bling.
441 00:23:46,555 00:23:48,279 Humans also do this, Humans also do this,
442 00:23:48,399 00:23:51,050 just sometimes in a more roundabout way. just sometimes in a more roundabout way.
443 00:23:51,408 00:23:56,596 Dances like the tango, for example, are courtship rituals in human form. Dances like the tango, for example, are courtship rituals in human form.
444 00:23:58,729 00:24:02,901 Darwinian theory is really a sort of branch of economics. Darwinian theory is really a sort of branch of economics.
445 00:24:03,161 00:24:05,853 You might think that the two sexes are kind of equal, You might think that the two sexes are kind of equal,
446 00:24:05,862 00:24:08,934 they both have the same amount to gain from mating. they both have the same amount to gain from mating.
447 00:24:09,054 00:24:09,941 Not so. Not so.
448 00:24:11,241 00:24:13,900 The goods that a female mammal brings to the deal The goods that a female mammal brings to the deal
449 00:24:13,915 00:24:17,440 are her womb, time devoted to the baby inside it, are her womb, time devoted to the baby inside it,
450 00:24:17,560 00:24:19,164 and milk to feed it. and milk to feed it.
451 00:24:19,377 00:24:22,349 The male generally provides protection and food. The male generally provides protection and food.
452 00:24:22,469 00:24:23,820 So far, so good. So far, so good.
453 00:24:23,850 00:24:27,189 But the male and female have very different genetic interests, But the male and female have very different genetic interests,
454 00:24:27,309 00:24:29,938 which is where it gets interesting. which is where it gets interesting.
455 00:24:30,843 00:24:33,010 The male has the most to gain, The male has the most to gain,
456 00:24:33,033 00:24:36,334 by, if he can, persuading lots of females to mate with him by, if he can, persuading lots of females to mate with him
457 00:24:36,454 00:24:39,218 and leaving each one to fend for herself. and leaving each one to fend for herself.
458 00:24:39,338 00:24:41,071 The female has the most to gain The female has the most to gain
459 00:24:41,191 00:24:44,829 from persuading one male to be loyal to her, faithful to her, from persuading one male to be loyal to her, faithful to her,
460 00:24:44,949 00:24:49,667 and to provide a full economic upbringing for her offspring. and to provide a full economic upbringing for her offspring.
461 00:24:49,787 00:24:53,493 It's this constant economic tussle between the sexes It's this constant economic tussle between the sexes
462 00:24:53,613 00:24:55,781 which makes courtship so important. which makes courtship so important.
463 00:24:58,184 00:24:59,541 There's a lot at stake. There's a lot at stake.
464 00:25:00,066 00:25:03,177 The male tries to ensure that the female is faithful, The male tries to ensure that the female is faithful,
465 00:25:03,297 00:25:05,581 so he doesn't bring up another male's child so he doesn't bring up another male's child
466 00:25:05,841 00:25:08,283 and perpetuate another male's genes. and perpetuate another male's genes.
467 00:25:09,548 00:25:12,613 The female must be faithful, or at least appear to be, The female must be faithful, or at least appear to be,
468 00:25:12,644 00:25:14,170 or the male may abandon her or the male may abandon her
469 00:25:14,290 00:25:17,458 and force her to bring up the offspring on her own. and force her to bring up the offspring on her own.
470 00:25:17,578 00:25:21,693 So one key characteristic we see being displayed in animal courtship So one key characteristic we see being displayed in animal courtship
471 00:25:21,989 00:25:25,250 is what we humans would call jealousy. is what we humans would call jealousy.
472 00:25:26,380 00:25:28,415 Females will tend to be coy Females will tend to be coy
473 00:25:28,940 00:25:31,775 and will tend to advertise their fidelity, advertise their and will tend to advertise their fidelity, advertise their
474 00:25:31,895 00:25:34,258 advertise their faithfulness to the male. advertise their faithfulness to the male.
475 00:25:34,281 00:25:37,261 Males, on the other hand, will tend to go in for mate guarding. Males, on the other hand, will tend to go in for mate guarding.
476 00:25:37,451 00:25:42,663 Say, putting an arm around a woman at a social gathering. Say, putting an arm around a woman at a social gathering.
477 00:25:45,211 00:25:47,232 So evolutionary science shows So evolutionary science shows
478 00:25:47,352 00:25:51,381 you don't need religion to have order and even courtesy in relationships. you don't need religion to have order and even courtesy in relationships.
479 00:25:51,970 00:25:55,221 It's not just anything goes and sex in the street. It's not just anything goes and sex in the street.
480 00:25:55,411 00:25:58,804 That's been tried in the past with odd results. That's been tried in the past with odd results.
481 00:26:03,995 00:26:06,830 Well, I think what's happening in San Francisco Well, I think what's happening in San Francisco
482 00:26:07,173 00:26:10,914 is the only meaningful thing that's happening in this country is the only meaningful thing that's happening in this country
483 00:26:11,034 00:26:12,701 and quite possibly the world. and quite possibly the world.
484 00:26:14,097 00:26:17,434 In the 1960s, the San Francisco Bay area In the 1960s, the San Francisco Bay area
485 00:26:17,449 00:26:19,842 was at the heart of the hippy experiment was at the heart of the hippy experiment
486 00:26:19,857 00:26:21,948 in so-called free love. in so-called free love.
487 00:26:22,001 00:26:24,919 I remember it well, because I was there. I remember it well, because I was there.
488 00:26:25,407 00:26:26,824 Well, this is Telegraph Avenue, Well, this is Telegraph Avenue,
489 00:26:27,136 00:26:30,221 which used to be filled with street people which used to be filled with street people
490 00:26:30,481 00:26:33,541 selling beads and carpets and drugs and things. selling beads and carpets and drugs and things.
491 00:26:34,283 00:26:36,723 Can't see any sign of that activity today, Can't see any sign of that activity today,
492 00:26:37,048 00:26:38,420 but possibly it's just because but possibly it's just because
493 00:26:38,900 00:26:40,451 it's only about nine o'clock in the morning. it's only about nine o'clock in the morning.
494 00:26:40,924 00:26:42,836 Probably haven't got up yet. Probably haven't got up yet.
495 00:26:43,659 00:26:46,063 I used to live here in the late 1960s. I used to live here in the late 1960s.
496 00:26:46,183 00:26:49,370 I was a very junior faculty member at the University Of California. I was a very junior faculty member at the University Of California.
497 00:26:49,781 00:26:53,061 And it was a time of great political unrest, And it was a time of great political unrest,
498 00:26:53,068 00:26:54,257 it was the time of the Vietnam War. it was the time of the Vietnam War.
499 00:26:54,377 00:26:55,735 There was tear gas, There was tear gas,
500 00:26:56,193 00:26:57,679 there were riot police, there were riot police,
501 00:26:58,037 00:27:00,772 the National Guard, bayonets. the National Guard, bayonets.
502 00:27:03,611 00:27:06,186 Part of the rebellion against authority Part of the rebellion against authority
503 00:27:06,407 00:27:09,577 came in trying to throw off sexual inhibitions. came in trying to throw off sexual inhibitions.
504 00:27:10,118 00:27:12,381 Coyness and mate guarding were out. Coyness and mate guarding were out.
505 00:27:14,286 00:27:17,664 The sexual culture was pretty free. Rather shockingly so. The sexual culture was pretty free. Rather shockingly so.
506 00:27:17,784 00:27:20,612 I remember once walking down this very street, I remember once walking down this very street,
507 00:27:20,627 00:27:24,053 and there was a young man walking ahead of me, a sort of hippy type, and there was a young man walking ahead of me, a sort of hippy type,
508 00:27:24,173 00:27:27,376 and every young woman who came towards him, and every young woman who came towards him,
509 00:27:27,496 00:27:30,547 he would just reach out and feel her breast. he would just reach out and feel her breast.
510 00:27:30,667 00:27:31,703 And then just walk on. And then just walk on.
511 00:27:31,726 00:27:33,145 And she took not the slightest notice. And she took not the slightest notice.
512 00:27:34,851 00:27:39,531 Another time, I saw a young woman in Telegraph Avenue, completely naked. Another time, I saw a young woman in Telegraph Avenue, completely naked.
513 00:27:39,651 00:27:41,695 That is a very clear memory. That is a very clear memory.
514 00:27:41,815 00:27:43,581 It definitely happened. It definitely happened.
515 00:27:47,022 00:27:51,129 But that '60s culture of letting it all hang out didn't last. But that '60s culture of letting it all hang out didn't last.
516 00:27:52,072 00:27:56,613 I'm intrigued by why all that's left today are tourists, I'm intrigued by why all that's left today are tourists,
517 00:27:57,001 00:28:00,643 grizzled street sellers, and dirty needles in the park. grizzled street sellers, and dirty needles in the park.
518 00:28:06,624 00:28:08,612 Perhaps the answer lies, once again, Perhaps the answer lies, once again,
519 00:28:08,801 00:28:12,301 in understanding our evolution as a species. in understanding our evolution as a species.
520 00:28:12,841 00:28:17,315 Science suggests that the rules we've evolved around courtship and sex Science suggests that the rules we've evolved around courtship and sex
521 00:28:17,435 00:28:20,861 are attached to deep-rooted emotions and reactions are attached to deep-rooted emotions and reactions
522 00:28:21,017 00:28:23,560 that are hard to jettison overnight. that are hard to jettison overnight.
523 00:28:23,680 00:28:24,953 (SNIFFS THEN GAGS). (SNIFFS THEN GAGS).
524 00:28:24,961 00:28:26,500 This is the reaction that I have. This is the reaction that I have.
525 00:28:26,515 00:28:28,501 These are crabs that are used for seasoning. These are crabs that are used for seasoning.
526 00:28:28,714 00:28:33,277 'The man assaulting my senses is the psychologist David Pizarro. 'The man assaulting my senses is the psychologist David Pizarro.
527 00:28:33,902 00:28:34,725 Oh, my God! Oh, my God!
528 00:28:35,510 00:28:36,926 That makes me want to retch. That makes me want to retch.
529 00:28:37,847 00:28:40,644 He is studying the science of disgust. He is studying the science of disgust.
530 00:28:42,241 00:28:45,070 This is from the film Trainspotting. This is from the film Trainspotting.
531 00:28:45,666 00:28:50,428 Aptly titled the worst toilet in Scotland. Aptly titled the worst toilet in Scotland.
532 00:28:50,870 00:28:51,901 Yuck! Yuck!
533 00:28:58,363 00:29:00,541 FLATULENCE, MOANING. FLATULENCE, MOANING.
534 00:29:01,894 00:29:04,741 That's horrible. FLATULENCE, MOANING. That's horrible. FLATULENCE, MOANING.
535 00:29:05,722 00:29:08,381 OK, I've shown you a brief portion. OK, I've shown you a brief portion.
536 00:29:08,404 00:29:09,929 I could see the disgust in your face. I could see the disgust in your face.
537 00:29:10,049 00:29:12,754 But what if I were, say, to present you with something like this. But what if I were, say, to present you with something like this.
538 00:29:13,143 00:29:15,621 And I asked you to handle it and maybe, And I asked you to handle it and maybe,
539 00:29:15,818 00:29:18,268 uh... maybe I won't ask you to put that in your mouth, uh... maybe I won't ask you to put that in your mouth,
540 00:29:18,481 00:29:19,353 but... but...
541 00:29:19,392 00:29:22,340 Well, I mean, I can kind of tell that's a joke. Well, I mean, I can kind of tell that's a joke.
542 00:29:22,460 00:29:24,374 This actually wouldn't worry me all that much. This actually wouldn't worry me all that much.
543 00:29:24,397 00:29:25,479 I mean, I can see... I mean, I can see...
544 00:29:25,494 00:29:27,549 - You might trust that I wouldn't put actual faeces. - Yeah. - You might trust that I wouldn't put actual faeces. - Yeah.
545 00:29:27,557 00:29:28,944 And as it turns out this is soap. And as it turns out this is soap.
546 00:29:28,989 00:29:31,031 It's soap. So now you've told me, It's soap. So now you've told me,
547 00:29:31,046 00:29:33,233 I wouldn't mind washing my handswith that. I wouldn't mind washing my handswith that.
548 00:29:33,941 00:29:36,381 So now I'm going to show you a few other images. So now I'm going to show you a few other images.
549 00:29:36,726 00:29:38,942 They're different from the first ones I showed you. They're different from the first ones I showed you.
550 00:29:39,062 00:29:40,443 You'll see immediately why. You'll see immediately why.
551 00:29:40,484 00:29:41,720 Oh, God. Yes. Yes. Oh, God. Yes. Yes.
552 00:29:42,417 00:29:46,335 David Pizarro shows me a highly graphic image of three elderly men David Pizarro shows me a highly graphic image of three elderly men
553 00:29:46,386 00:29:48,634 engaged in homosexual sex. engaged in homosexual sex.
554 00:29:50,505 00:29:51,614 Ugh! Ugh!
555 00:29:51,734 00:29:52,498 Oh, God! Oh, God!
556 00:29:52,748 00:29:57,141 Now I'm looking at a degrading sexual act involving vomit. Now I'm looking at a degrading sexual act involving vomit.
557 00:29:57,336 00:29:59,919 I'll leave this at two, because these are actually... I'll leave this at two, because these are actually...
558 00:29:59,934 00:30:02,728 so disgusting that I feel bad having shown them to you. so disgusting that I feel bad having shown them to you.
559 00:30:02,848 00:30:06,634 Those two images were images of a sexual nature, and as it turns out Those two images were images of a sexual nature, and as it turns out
560 00:30:06,657 00:30:10,021 the domain of sex is one in which we are easily disgusted. the domain of sex is one in which we are easily disgusted.
561 00:30:13,004 00:30:15,347 The "Yuck!" reaction is an emotion The "Yuck!" reaction is an emotion
562 00:30:15,400 00:30:18,037 that almost certainly evolved to help us survive, that almost certainly evolved to help us survive,
563 00:30:18,157 00:30:21,237 to make us back off from potential disease. to make us back off from potential disease.
564 00:30:22,227 00:30:26,186 But what's fascinating is how disgust seems to have been harnessed But what's fascinating is how disgust seems to have been harnessed
565 00:30:26,306 00:30:30,291 to reinforce our sense of judgement and moral disapproval. to reinforce our sense of judgement and moral disapproval.
566 00:30:31,175 00:30:34,313 I kept finding that responses to questions like, I kept finding that responses to questions like,
567 00:30:34,344 00:30:37,155 "How disgusted would you be if you were to walk into a public restroom "How disgusted would you be if you were to walk into a public restroom
568 00:30:37,186 00:30:38,572 and found an unflushed toilet?", and found an unflushed toilet?",
569 00:30:38,618 00:30:41,422 were consistently correlated with political orientation. were consistently correlated with political orientation.
570 00:30:41,673 00:30:44,957 The more likely you are to be disgusted in everyday life, The more likely you are to be disgusted in everyday life,
571 00:30:44,995 00:30:47,357 the more likely you are to hold attitudes, the more likely you are to hold attitudes,
572 00:30:47,372 00:30:49,345 in the sexual domain especially, in the sexual domain especially,
573 00:30:49,856 00:30:54,257 that are moral beliefs against, for instance... that are moral beliefs against, for instance...
574 00:30:54,287 00:30:56,522 the behaviour of two men having sex. the behaviour of two men having sex.
575 00:30:56,574 00:30:58,356 Yes, let me ask a question about that, Yes, let me ask a question about that,
576 00:30:58,357 00:31:04,158 because I had a fairly strong disgust reaction to some of the things you showed, because I had a fairly strong disgust reaction to some of the things you showed,
577 00:31:04,278 00:31:07,533 but the important difference is that I don't try to impose but the important difference is that I don't try to impose
578 00:31:07,579 00:31:11,032 my own dislikes on what other people are allowed to do. my own dislikes on what other people are allowed to do.
579 00:31:11,404 00:31:14,525 It's nothing to do with me what people do in private. It's nothing to do with me what people do in private.
580 00:31:14,532 00:31:16,410 I think that's the crucial distinction. I think that's the crucial distinction.
581 00:31:16,601 00:31:21,145 But it is a very common thought in moral codes across the world But it is a very common thought in moral codes across the world
582 00:31:21,518 00:31:24,400 that many things are wrong by dint of their being... that many things are wrong by dint of their being...
583 00:31:24,442 00:31:25,592 somehow impure. somehow impure.
584 00:31:26,040 00:31:28,769 I think that the real answer here comes from the fact that I think that the real answer here comes from the fact that
585 00:31:28,889 00:31:31,892 we can now actually see what is harmful and what is not, we can now actually see what is harmful and what is not,
586 00:31:31,923 00:31:33,401 and we can decide... and we can decide...
587 00:31:33,416 00:31:35,473 to put our disgust to rest to put our disgust to rest
588 00:31:35,488 00:31:37,035 when it comes to making moral judgements. when it comes to making moral judgements.
589 00:31:37,081 00:31:41,149 And one of the things that I ask my students in my class is... And one of the things that I ask my students in my class is...
590 00:31:41,484 00:31:44,792 imagine two very, very ugly people having sex. imagine two very, very ugly people having sex.
591 00:31:45,181 00:31:46,712 Disgusting. Disgusting.
592 00:31:46,832 00:31:49,296 But would you ever think to make it illegal But would you ever think to make it illegal
593 00:31:49,326 00:31:50,952 for ugly people to have sex? for ugly people to have sex?
594 00:31:51,072 00:31:52,582 Well, of course not. Well, of course not.
595 00:31:52,702 00:31:55,136 Well, maybe it's a case in which we might be able to say, Well, maybe it's a case in which we might be able to say,
596 00:31:55,167 00:31:58,034 "You know what?... I'm grossed out by what you're doing!" "You know what?... I'm grossed out by what you're doing!"
597 00:31:58,154 00:32:01,821 But that has nothing to do with whether you should be put in prison for it. But that has nothing to do with whether you should be put in prison for it.
598 00:32:05,545 00:32:07,183 This is the key point. This is the key point.
599 00:32:07,214 00:32:11,157 We have instincts that used to protect our primitive ancestors. We have instincts that used to protect our primitive ancestors.
600 00:32:11,191 00:32:15,307 Because of that, we may still find some things emotionally repellent. Because of that, we may still find some things emotionally repellent.
601 00:32:15,498 00:32:18,881 But we have evolved also a sense of reason, But we have evolved also a sense of reason,
602 00:32:18,912 00:32:23,045 which curbs our tendency to project our disgust onto other people. which curbs our tendency to project our disgust onto other people.
603 00:32:23,777 00:32:25,773 In our post-religion world, In our post-religion world,
604 00:32:25,788 00:32:29,499 we can look rationally at what we once called "sinful behaviour". we can look rationally at what we once called "sinful behaviour".
605 00:32:29,710 00:32:35,421 We can weigh up actual harms and benefits, and temper our instincts. We can weigh up actual harms and benefits, and temper our instincts.
606 00:32:37,694 00:32:41,171 In this way, advanced societies like ours can move on, In this way, advanced societies like ours can move on,
607 00:32:41,291 00:32:45,134 shifting the line on what is deemed right or wrong. shifting the line on what is deemed right or wrong.
608 00:32:47,858 00:32:51,615 Probably the dominant change in my lifetime Probably the dominant change in my lifetime
609 00:32:51,801 00:32:53,863 is the change in attitude towards gays. is the change in attitude towards gays.
610 00:32:53,884 00:32:56,472 When I first entered Parliament in 1979, When I first entered Parliament in 1979,
611 00:32:56,918 00:32:59,252 I started campaigning - I started campaigning -
612 00:32:59,372 00:33:00,684 not for equal rights - not for equal rights -
613 00:33:00,697 00:33:02,899 we wouldn't have dared use a word like equal rights - we wouldn't have dared use a word like equal rights -
614 00:33:02,921 00:33:08,000 but I started campaigning for a measure of respect for homosexuals. but I started campaigning for a measure of respect for homosexuals.
615 00:33:08,442 00:33:10,240 I thought, if I was very lucky, I thought, if I was very lucky,
616 00:33:10,256 00:33:13,404 we might get the age of consent reduced from 21 we might get the age of consent reduced from 21
617 00:33:13,418 00:33:15,720 to 18 by the time I died. to 18 by the time I died.
618 00:33:15,840 00:33:17,068 I thought, if I was very lucky, I thought, if I was very lucky,
619 00:33:17,081 00:33:20,077 I could stop the police impersonating... gays I could stop the police impersonating... gays
620 00:33:20,100 00:33:23,071 in order to pick people up in public lavatories and then prosecute them. in order to pick people up in public lavatories and then prosecute them.
621 00:33:23,087 00:33:25,198 These things seem to change so slowly... These things seem to change so slowly...
622 00:33:25,214 00:33:27,179 and then suddenly, like an avalanche, and then suddenly, like an avalanche,
623 00:33:27,202 00:33:28,465 everything changed! everything changed!
624 00:33:28,732 00:33:30,492 And long before the end of my life. And long before the end of my life.
625 00:33:30,545 00:33:32,821 I cannot believe the speed I cannot believe the speed
626 00:33:32,941 00:33:38,162 with what seemed to be a really fixed public loathing... of homosexuality with what seemed to be a really fixed public loathing... of homosexuality
627 00:33:38,192 00:33:40,493 - ..has changed to a shrug of the shoulders. - Yes. - ..has changed to a shrug of the shoulders. - Yes.
628 00:33:41,552 00:33:45,231 Matthew Parris believes it is our capacity for reason Matthew Parris believes it is our capacity for reason
629 00:33:45,293 00:33:48,699 that lies behind this growing tolerance. that lies behind this growing tolerance.
630 00:33:48,819 00:33:50,671 In our culture, the advance of science, In our culture, the advance of science,
631 00:33:50,709 00:33:54,755 the advance of scientific, medical, psychological knowledge, the advance of scientific, medical, psychological knowledge,
632 00:33:54,999 00:33:59,807 the understanding that things are not rooted in sin the understanding that things are not rooted in sin
633 00:33:59,927 00:34:01,628 that comes from demons and the devil, that comes from demons and the devil,
634 00:34:01,748 00:34:06,016 but rooted in very deep internal aspects of our own... but rooted in very deep internal aspects of our own...
635 00:34:06,136 00:34:07,715 mechanisms of our mind. mechanisms of our mind.
636 00:34:07,731 00:34:12,687 So blame is much less important in these things, So blame is much less important in these things,
637 00:34:12,721 00:34:16,417 and, of course, illnesses used to be attributed sometimes to sin too. and, of course, illnesses used to be attributed sometimes to sin too.
638 00:34:16,432 00:34:18,779 Well, it isn't a matter of sin, it isn't a matter of blame. Well, it isn't a matter of sin, it isn't a matter of blame.
639 00:34:18,810 00:34:23,046 And I think those attitudes have probably been changing over 200 years, And I think those attitudes have probably been changing over 200 years,
640 00:34:23,069 00:34:25,997 and the change has accelerated in the last century. and the change has accelerated in the last century.
641 00:34:26,243 00:34:29,261 It seems like a wonderfully positive story. It seems like a wonderfully positive story.
642 00:34:29,603 00:34:31,667 But Matthew Parris does have concerns. But Matthew Parris does have concerns.
643 00:34:31,690 00:34:35,766 - They're getting... - Well, what shall we say?..more liberal, more tolerant. - They're getting... - Well, what shall we say?..more liberal, more tolerant.
644 00:34:36,871 00:34:39,226 What you and I would think of as better. What you and I would think of as better.
645 00:34:39,241 00:34:40,854 We are actually getting better. We are actually getting better.
646 00:34:40,908 00:34:43,304 I suppose, though, that... a fear that I suppose, though, that... a fear that
647 00:34:43,424 00:34:48,133 certainly haunts me and others in the gay liberation movement certainly haunts me and others in the gay liberation movement
648 00:34:48,148 00:34:52,753 is that if things could swing so rapidly in our favour as they have, is that if things could swing so rapidly in our favour as they have,
649 00:34:52,873 00:34:56,035 could we, in a sort of Third Reich-like world, could we, in a sort of Third Reich-like world,
650 00:34:56,042 00:35:00,007 see things swinging very rapidly, equally rapidly the other way? see things swinging very rapidly, equally rapidly the other way?
651 00:35:00,035 00:35:00,888 A backlash. A backlash.
652 00:35:00,896 00:35:04,631 How little anchored, perhaps, are these categories. How little anchored, perhaps, are these categories.
653 00:35:04,652 00:35:05,315 Yes. Yes.
654 00:35:06,526 00:35:10,031 There's a sort of feeling of hatred for bankers, for rich people, There's a sort of feeling of hatred for bankers, for rich people,
655 00:35:10,084 00:35:11,311 for plutocrats, at the moment. for plutocrats, at the moment.
656 00:35:11,326 00:35:14,426 I could imagine a little winter, a little ice age I could imagine a little winter, a little ice age
657 00:35:14,546 00:35:16,341 for the richest in society for the richest in society
658 00:35:16,529 00:35:19,043 coming as the Western economy sinks, coming as the Western economy sinks,
659 00:35:19,317 00:35:21,215 and as people are looking for somebody to blame, and as people are looking for somebody to blame,
660 00:35:21,335 00:35:24,288 just as the Jews got it in the neck, so to speak, just as the Jews got it in the neck, so to speak,
661 00:35:24,311 00:35:25,561 between the two wars. between the two wars.
662 00:35:29,721 00:35:32,710 I understand what Matthew Parris is getting at, I understand what Matthew Parris is getting at,
663 00:35:32,830 00:35:36,650 but I think I'm more optimistic about human nature. but I think I'm more optimistic about human nature.
664 00:35:37,664 00:35:40,991 I want to argue that, now we've left religion behind... I want to argue that, now we've left religion behind...
665 00:35:41,111 00:35:44,755 we're getting better, more moral, and kinder. we're getting better, more moral, and kinder.
666 00:35:55,005 00:35:57,770 If you want to understand what makes a human being good, If you want to understand what makes a human being good,
667 00:35:58,418 00:36:00,582 watch them with a pet. watch them with a pet.
668 00:36:01,466 00:36:03,622 Tiko is a wolf, or he thinks he's a wolf. Tiko is a wolf, or he thinks he's a wolf.
669 00:36:03,645 00:36:06,914 His not very distant ancestors were wolves. His not very distant ancestors were wolves.
670 00:36:07,433 00:36:08,445 Good dog, Tiko. Good dog, Tiko.
671 00:36:08,765 00:36:11,924 He loves going for a walk because he sees what happened overnight, He loves going for a walk because he sees what happened overnight,
672 00:36:12,240 00:36:14,602 which he can tell from the smells that were left. which he can tell from the smells that were left.
673 00:36:14,793 00:36:15,854 Come on, Tiko. Come on, Tiko.
674 00:36:15,892 00:36:18,670 He stops at every corner, stops at every lamppost. He stops at every corner, stops at every lamppost.
675 00:36:18,937 00:36:22,185 It's sort of like reading the newspaper for him, I think. It's sort of like reading the newspaper for him, I think.
676 00:36:25,246 00:36:26,799 Off we go. Off we go.
677 00:36:29,409 00:36:32,365 It's a very different world to be in, a dog's world, It's a very different world to be in, a dog's world,
678 00:36:32,389 00:36:36,447 and we anthropomorphise, we put ourselves in the position of the dog, and we anthropomorphise, we put ourselves in the position of the dog,
679 00:36:36,567 00:36:40,089 project ourselves into the body of the dog and... project ourselves into the body of the dog and...
680 00:36:40,209 00:36:43,873 we think we know what it's like to be a dog. And we don't. we think we know what it's like to be a dog. And we don't.
681 00:36:44,628 00:36:46,181 We delude ourselves. We delude ourselves.
682 00:36:46,301 00:36:51,027 But that's part of what goes on when we love a dog. But that's part of what goes on when we love a dog.
683 00:36:53,732 00:36:56,796 Tiko, do you like going to puppy class? Do you? Tiko, do you like going to puppy class? Do you?
684 00:36:56,916 00:36:58,293 And do you play with Figgy? And do you play with Figgy?
685 00:36:58,739 00:37:00,301 And do you play with Denis? And do you play with Denis?
686 00:37:00,805 00:37:02,887 Do you? What am I doing with my dog? Do you? What am I doing with my dog?
687 00:37:03,007 00:37:04,790 Do you play with Watson? Do you play with Watson?
688 00:37:04,910 00:37:06,710 I'm empathising, I'm empathising,
689 00:37:06,830 00:37:11,613 I'm making an imaginative leap to see the world from a dog's perspective. I'm making an imaginative leap to see the world from a dog's perspective.
690 00:37:12,096 00:37:14,016 Paw. Good boy. Paw. Good boy.
691 00:37:14,275 00:37:16,037 Humans are extraordinarily good Humans are extraordinarily good
692 00:37:16,027 00:37:19,913 at identifying with other humans and other species. at identifying with other humans and other species.
693 00:37:20,126 00:37:23,404 And it has a profoundly moral effect. And it has a profoundly moral effect.
694 00:37:24,172 00:37:27,336 When we see a dog or a person suffering, When we see a dog or a person suffering,
695 00:37:27,351 00:37:28,424 we suffer, too. we suffer, too.
696 00:37:28,544 00:37:30,504 We suffer vicariously. We suffer vicariously.
697 00:37:30,512 00:37:31,893 It's a very powerful emotion. It's a very powerful emotion.
698 00:37:32,287 00:37:36,433 If I see Tiko suffering, if he's ill, in pain, If I see Tiko suffering, if he's ill, in pain,
699 00:37:36,723 00:37:39,216 I feel devastated. And... I feel devastated. And...
700 00:37:39,336 00:37:43,000 it's exactly as though it was my own child, I suppose. it's exactly as though it was my own child, I suppose.
701 00:37:43,713 00:37:45,253 Tiko, uppity-paw. Tiko, uppity-paw.
702 00:37:45,979 00:37:49,128 Empathy is important for morality because... Empathy is important for morality because...
703 00:37:49,248 00:37:51,894 perhaps the most fundamental principle of morality, perhaps the most fundamental principle of morality,
704 00:37:52,014 00:37:55,842 the golden rule, involves putting yourself in the position of another. the golden rule, involves putting yourself in the position of another.
705 00:37:55,962 00:37:57,564 Do as you would be done by. Do as you would be done by.
706 00:37:57,684 00:38:00,642 How would you like it if you were treated like that? How would you like it if you were treated like that?
707 00:38:05,001 00:38:07,233 We don't need God telling us the rule. We don't need God telling us the rule.
708 00:38:07,248 00:38:11,363 Science shows we humans are hardwired to have empathy. Science shows we humans are hardwired to have empathy.
709 00:38:12,879 00:38:15,993 Scientists can now scan which parts of the brain Scientists can now scan which parts of the brain
710 00:38:16,010 00:38:18,654 register vicarious pain or pleasure. register vicarious pain or pleasure.
711 00:38:18,980 00:38:22,168 They can track how hormones, like oxytocin, They can track how hormones, like oxytocin,
712 00:38:22,288 00:38:24,772 which encourage compassion and nurturing, which encourage compassion and nurturing,
713 00:38:24,787 00:38:27,640 act on the emotion systems in the brain. act on the emotion systems in the brain.
714 00:38:31,609 00:38:33,461 Brain science helps us to see Brain science helps us to see
715 00:38:33,581 00:38:36,195 why we find it a bad idea to steal, why we find it a bad idea to steal,
716 00:38:36,315 00:38:39,303 why we hate to see somebody kicking a dog. why we hate to see somebody kicking a dog.
717 00:38:39,777 00:38:43,669 We can trace the chemicals in the brain that reward kindness. We can trace the chemicals in the brain that reward kindness.
718 00:38:43,789 00:38:48,081 We can see what goes on in the brain when we feel for others. We can see what goes on in the brain when we feel for others.
719 00:38:48,805 00:38:51,290 Goodness is natural to us. Goodness is natural to us.
720 00:38:51,410 00:38:54,573 Kindness is in our physiology. Kindness is in our physiology.
721 00:39:01,919 00:39:03,816 So, you might ask, quite rightly, So, you might ask, quite rightly,
722 00:39:04,068 00:39:07,155 if humans have this innate capacity for good, if humans have this innate capacity for good,
723 00:39:07,275 00:39:08,373 why does it go wrong? why does it go wrong?
724 00:39:09,790 00:39:12,493 Why do we still do bad things? Why do we still do bad things?
725 00:39:13,531 00:39:16,472 Perhaps there's a scientific answer to that, too. Perhaps there's a scientific answer to that, too.
726 00:39:17,843 00:39:22,379 Here, we go back to those primitive moral emotions that helped us survive. Here, we go back to those primitive moral emotions that helped us survive.
727 00:39:23,537 00:39:26,944 You've got empathy, you've got kindness, You've got empathy, you've got kindness,
728 00:39:26,975 00:39:30,030 you've got nurturing, you've got all of this, but you also have you've got nurturing, you've got all of this, but you also have
729 00:39:30,150 00:39:32,607 disgust, you've got cruelty, you've got fear. disgust, you've got cruelty, you've got fear.
730 00:39:32,727 00:39:36,693 All of those are evolved to protect you and your kin. All of those are evolved to protect you and your kin.
731 00:39:37,986 00:39:41,790 The neuroscientist Kathleen Taylor has studied what happens The neuroscientist Kathleen Taylor has studied what happens
732 00:39:41,797 00:39:45,373 when people decide that others are not included in their tribe. when people decide that others are not included in their tribe.
733 00:39:46,166 00:39:48,429 She calls it "otherisation". She calls it "otherisation".
734 00:39:49,092 00:39:53,093 The others are commonly classed as beasts or subhuman. The others are commonly classed as beasts or subhuman.
735 00:39:54,319 00:39:56,300 You're not just saying that's my enemy, You're not just saying that's my enemy,
736 00:39:56,308 00:40:00,072 you're actually saying, that is a less than human person, you're actually saying, that is a less than human person,
737 00:40:00,125 00:40:02,876 I am not going to call that person the same moral status I am not going to call that person the same moral status
738 00:40:02,884 00:40:04,918 as I would to my nearest and dearest. as I would to my nearest and dearest.
739 00:40:05,124 00:40:08,864 Those who carried out the final solution in Nazi Germany Those who carried out the final solution in Nazi Germany
740 00:40:08,984 00:40:11,863 could only have done it, presumably, by otherisation of the Jews? - Yeah. could only have done it, presumably, by otherisation of the Jews? - Yeah.
741 00:40:11,876 00:40:14,948 Yes. Because one of the things that otherisation does is... Yes. Because one of the things that otherisation does is...
742 00:40:14,953 00:40:16,578 it suppresses empathy. it suppresses empathy.
743 00:40:16,698 00:40:19,218 So for example, the "Einsatzgruppen" (German: deployment groups) So for example, the "Einsatzgruppen" (German: deployment groups)
744 00:40:19,219 00:40:22,595 the groups who were committing the worst atrocities on the Eastern Front, the groups who were committing the worst atrocities on the Eastern Front,
745 00:40:22,602 00:40:23,745 in the Second World War, in the Second World War,
746 00:40:23,791 00:40:26,496 they're not just forgetting about morality altogether, they're not just forgetting about morality altogether,
747 00:40:26,518 00:40:28,176 and just engaging in cruelty. and just engaging in cruelty.
748 00:40:28,199 00:40:30,926 Their cruelty is very targeted and very directed, Their cruelty is very targeted and very directed,
749 00:40:31,046 00:40:34,385 and people who are part of their group and people who are part of their group
750 00:40:34,724 00:40:36,216 escape cruelty, on the whole. escape cruelty, on the whole.
751 00:40:36,255 00:40:38,163 And people who are not part of their group And people who are not part of their group
752 00:40:38,178 00:40:39,633 are the ones who bear the brunt of it. are the ones who bear the brunt of it.
753 00:40:40,578 00:40:42,574 But even in the times of horror, But even in the times of horror,
754 00:40:42,605 00:40:45,081 there are moments which should be cherished there are moments which should be cherished
755 00:40:45,104 00:40:46,947 where empathy breaks through. where empathy breaks through.
756 00:40:48,114 00:40:51,796 There's an interesting example from the SS There's an interesting example from the SS
757 00:40:51,916 00:40:56,987 of a man who is helping to dispose, as they put it, of some Jewish children. of a man who is helping to dispose, as they put it, of some Jewish children.
758 00:40:57,010 00:40:58,747 His parents had already been killed. His parents had already been killed.
759 00:40:58,867 00:41:00,920 And he talks about how he was doing it, And he talks about how he was doing it,
760 00:41:01,040 00:41:02,754 and he had to take the hand of a little girl... and he had to take the hand of a little girl...
761 00:41:02,808 00:41:05,308 and he just couldn't do it. His empathy came back and he just couldn't do it. His empathy came back
762 00:41:05,428 00:41:08,433 and overwhelmed him. So he's got a lot of ideology, and overwhelmed him. So he's got a lot of ideology,
763 00:41:08,447 00:41:10,940 a lot of group pressure saying these people are not human, a lot of group pressure saying these people are not human,
764 00:41:10,963 00:41:12,959 you will not treat them as human, you will not treat them as human,
765 00:41:12,972 00:41:17,621 but it's obvious that if the cues are sufficiently powerful, if you like, but it's obvious that if the cues are sufficiently powerful, if you like,
766 00:41:17,893 00:41:20,189 that can go, that can be reversed. that can go, that can be reversed.
767 00:41:20,585 00:41:22,695 He was on his ownfor a little while, with this little girl, He was on his ownfor a little while, with this little girl,
768 00:41:22,711 00:41:24,364 and suddenly he was a dad... and suddenly he was a dad...
769 00:41:24,379 00:41:26,103 - He realised he was human. - Yeah. - He realised he was human. - Yeah.
770 00:41:31,975 00:41:34,931 If we are to build a non-religious morality, If we are to build a non-religious morality,
771 00:41:35,350 00:41:39,525 one thing we must strenuously avoid is demonising another set of humans, one thing we must strenuously avoid is demonising another set of humans,
772 00:41:39,577 00:41:41,853 or treating them as unequal. or treating them as unequal.
773 00:41:42,113 00:41:45,413 Quite apart from anything else, this leads to a collapse of empathy. Quite apart from anything else, this leads to a collapse of empathy.
774 00:41:47,699 00:41:52,599 What we need to do is expand the circle of those to whom we feel empathy. What we need to do is expand the circle of those to whom we feel empathy.
775 00:41:52,927 00:41:55,394 Break down the barriers that divide us, Break down the barriers that divide us,
776 00:41:55,514 00:42:00,260 the tribalisms of religion, class, race and ideology. the tribalisms of religion, class, race and ideology.
777 00:42:02,272 00:42:04,847 Our scientific understanding of empathy, Our scientific understanding of empathy,
778 00:42:05,152 00:42:08,813 and the memory of how we've got it wrong in the past can help. and the memory of how we've got it wrong in the past can help.
779 00:42:09,275 00:42:12,513 And the good news is, we're already doing it. And the good news is, we're already doing it.
780 00:42:13,084 00:42:17,626 200 years ago, it was normal, acceptable, to keep slaves. 200 years ago, it was normal, acceptable, to keep slaves.
781 00:42:17,746 00:42:20,264 Now, it would be considered barbaric. Now, it would be considered barbaric.
782 00:42:20,384 00:42:21,847 The same with racism. The same with racism.
783 00:42:21,862 00:42:24,546 I was brought up in British colonial Africa, I was brought up in British colonial Africa,
784 00:42:24,666 00:42:27,964 and I vividly remember the patronising attitude at the time. and I vividly remember the patronising attitude at the time.
785 00:42:28,084 00:42:30,911 The Africans are like children, they can't look after themselves. The Africans are like children, they can't look after themselves.
786 00:42:30,934 00:42:32,703 We have to do it for them. We have to do it for them.
787 00:42:32,823 00:42:35,893 Today, such an attitude would be unthinkable. Today, such an attitude would be unthinkable.
788 00:42:37,457 00:42:41,813 Our capacity for empathy, together with a more rational, tolerant society, Our capacity for empathy, together with a more rational, tolerant society,
789 00:42:42,073 00:42:46,067 is, I believe, making us more moral than ever before. is, I believe, making us more moral than ever before.
790 00:42:49,922 00:42:53,488 And yet, if you were to believe some moralists and some newspapers, And yet, if you were to believe some moralists and some newspapers,
791 00:42:53,608 00:42:56,466 society is going to hell in a handcart. society is going to hell in a handcart.
792 00:42:58,161 00:42:59,738 But is it? But is it?
793 00:43:00,995 00:43:05,362 The psychologist Steven Pinker has looked at the figures in detail, The psychologist Steven Pinker has looked at the figures in detail,
794 00:43:05,482 00:43:07,984 including data from the British Home Office including data from the British Home Office
795 00:43:08,104 00:43:10,106 and the US Bureau of Justice, and the US Bureau of Justice,
796 00:43:10,226 00:43:13,169 and found that as religion declines, and found that as religion declines,
797 00:43:13,289 00:43:16,331 we're becoming ever more civilised. we're becoming ever more civilised.
798 00:43:17,103 00:43:19,423 I had no idea that, say, in the last 40 years, I had no idea that, say, in the last 40 years,
799 00:43:19,431 00:43:21,675 the rate of rape had declined by 80%. the rate of rape had declined by 80%.
800 00:43:21,683 00:43:24,008 - 80%? - 80% in the United States. - 80%? - 80% in the United States.
801 00:43:24,128 00:43:27,590 The rate of domestic abuse in both the UK and the US... The rate of domestic abuse in both the UK and the US...
802 00:43:27,605 00:43:29,678 That rape figure is even more surprising, because That rape figure is even more surprising, because
803 00:43:29,708 00:43:32,011 presumably the number of reportings has gone up. presumably the number of reportings has gone up.
804 00:43:32,131 00:43:33,926 Exactly. That's right. Exactly. That's right.
805 00:43:34,046 00:43:35,944 Child abuse has gone down, Child abuse has gone down,
806 00:43:35,959 00:43:40,258 attitudes towards racial minorities, attitudes towards homosexuals, attitudes towards racial minorities, attitudes towards homosexuals,
807 00:43:40,302 00:43:41,917 our treatment of animals in laboratories. our treatment of animals in laboratories.
808 00:43:41,925 00:43:44,189 And yet the perception of these things has gone in the other direction, And yet the perception of these things has gone in the other direction,
809 00:43:44,205 00:43:49,214 because everybody thinks that child abuse has been climbing. because everybody thinks that child abuse has been climbing.
810 00:43:49,334 00:43:52,375 It may be because of the increased concern It may be because of the increased concern
811 00:43:52,398 00:43:55,926 that we both think that it's more prevalent than ever before, that we both think that it's more prevalent than ever before,
812 00:43:55,940 00:43:59,070 and we've managed to put it down because people care about it, and we've managed to put it down because people care about it,
813 00:43:59,071 00:44:02,756 take steps to minimise it and those steps clearly succeed. take steps to minimise it and those steps clearly succeed.
814 00:44:02,876 00:44:07,621 And there are many positive developments that we take for granted And there are many positive developments that we take for granted
815 00:44:07,659 00:44:10,882 because they are non-events, they're dogs that don't bark. because they are non-events, they're dogs that don't bark.
816 00:44:11,002 00:44:15,295 An example would be the disappearance of war between developed states. An example would be the disappearance of war between developed states.
817 00:44:15,709 00:44:17,586 Even in the developing world, Even in the developing world,
818 00:44:17,706 00:44:21,928 where we think of as a war-torn hell-hole, where we think of as a war-torn hell-hole,
819 00:44:22,048 00:44:24,644 the numbers show that the number of wars the numbers show that the number of wars
820 00:44:24,659 00:44:26,129 and the numbers of deaths in war and the numbers of deaths in war
821 00:44:26,145 00:44:28,827 have plummeted worldwide, in the last 20 years, have plummeted worldwide, in the last 20 years,
822 00:44:29,011 00:44:30,514 since the end of the Cold War. since the end of the Cold War.
823 00:44:30,754 00:44:32,743 Deaths are lower in absolute numbers. Deaths are lower in absolute numbers.
824 00:44:32,766 00:44:35,167 In a world of seven billion people, In a world of seven billion people,
825 00:44:35,213 00:44:37,910 fewer people are dying in warfare fewer people are dying in warfare
826 00:44:37,924 00:44:38,939 than ever before. than ever before.
827 00:44:39,059 00:44:40,460 Are we too down on ourselves? Are we too down on ourselves?
828 00:44:40,483 00:44:42,944 Do you think that, actually, we're becoming more moral? Do you think that, actually, we're becoming more moral?
829 00:44:43,203 00:44:45,808 I don't know if we're becoming more moral biologically, I don't know if we're becoming more moral biologically,
830 00:44:45,993 00:44:50,580 but I think there is something about a society with free speech, but I think there is something about a society with free speech,
831 00:44:50,700 00:44:53,201 with open enquiry, with rational debate, with open enquiry, with rational debate,
832 00:44:53,321 00:44:55,104 with the accumulation of evidence, with the accumulation of evidence,
833 00:44:55,224 00:44:58,022 that will tend to push us in a moral direction. that will tend to push us in a moral direction.
834 00:44:58,142 00:45:01,664 - In particular, the whole current that we call humanism... - Yes. - In particular, the whole current that we call humanism... - Yes.
835 00:45:01,784 00:45:07,032 ..which almost sounds banal and boring and treacly, nowadays, ..which almost sounds banal and boring and treacly, nowadays,
836 00:45:07,039 00:45:09,502 simply because it's become second nature to us. simply because it's become second nature to us.
837 00:45:09,538 00:45:11,693 But I think it's a radical idea in human history. But I think it's a radical idea in human history.
838 00:45:20,073 00:45:21,951 A cynic about human nature A cynic about human nature
839 00:45:21,997 00:45:27,010 might say that religious morality is an effective way of keeping people in line. might say that religious morality is an effective way of keeping people in line.
840 00:45:27,262 00:45:29,933 The threat of hell, the reward of heaven. The threat of hell, the reward of heaven.
841 00:45:30,193 00:45:33,902 But the rules of the holy books are out of date and often barbaric. But the rules of the holy books are out of date and often barbaric.
842 00:45:36,462 00:45:41,470 Science shows that we're governed by quite logical hidden rules and customs, Science shows that we're governed by quite logical hidden rules and customs,
843 00:45:41,707 00:45:45,882 and the highly evolved senses that humans have, of reason and empathy. and the highly evolved senses that humans have, of reason and empathy.
844 00:45:46,849 00:45:49,900 More important we now live in a rational age More important we now live in a rational age
845 00:45:50,020 00:45:52,719 and can look at where we've gone wrong in history, and can look at where we've gone wrong in history,
846 00:45:52,765 00:45:57,298 and avoid the tribalism that divides and harms us. and avoid the tribalism that divides and harms us.
847 00:45:58,802 00:46:01,339 This, surely, is real progress. This, surely, is real progress.
848 00:46:01,459 00:46:03,517 We live in what may be a more peaceful, We live in what may be a more peaceful,
849 00:46:03,518 00:46:06,171 more civilised world than ever before. more civilised world than ever before.
850 00:46:06,291 00:46:09,936 We have the opportunity to develop a new morality, We have the opportunity to develop a new morality,
851 00:46:10,056 00:46:14,813 and that is an exciting part of what it means to be human. and that is an exciting part of what it means to be human.
852 00:46:43,130 00:46:47,671 Subtitling by Red Bee Media Ltd Subtitling by Red Bee Media Ltd