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1 | 00:00:03,015 | 00:00:05,312 | TV REPORT: Dennis Nilsen is charged with murdering | TV REPORT: Dennis Nilsen is charged with murdering |
2 | 00:00:05,337 | 00:00:09,788 | Kenneth Ockenden, Martyn Duffy, William Sutherland, Malcolm Barlow, | Kenneth Ockenden, Martyn Duffy, William Sutherland, Malcolm Barlow, |
3 | 00:00:09,813 | 00:00:12,326 | John Howlett and Stephen Sinclair. | John Howlett and Stephen Sinclair. |
4 | 00:00:12,351 | 00:00:15,132 | He's also accused of attempting to murder Douglas Stewart | He's also accused of attempting to murder Douglas Stewart |
5 | 00:00:15,157 | 00:00:16,638 | and Paul Knobbs. | and Paul Knobbs. |
6 | 00:00:18,292 | 00:00:20,452 | As each of the eight charges were read out, | As each of the eight charges were read out, |
7 | 00:00:20,493 | 00:00:23,132 | the defendant was asked, "How say you, Nilson? | the defendant was asked, "How say you, Nilson? |
8 | 00:00:23,173 | 00:00:25,093 | "Are you guilty or not guilty?" | "Are you guilty or not guilty?" |
9 | 00:00:25,132 | 00:00:29,076 | Eight times, in a firm voice, he replied, "Not guilty." | Eight times, in a firm voice, he replied, "Not guilty." |
10 | 00:00:30,169 | 00:00:32,227 | But is Nilson guilty of murder, | But is Nilson guilty of murder, |
11 | 00:00:32,252 | 00:00:34,853 | or is he guilty only of manslaughter? | or is he guilty only of manslaughter? |
12 | 00:00:35,142 | 00:00:39,982 | Synced & corrected by QueenMaddie www.addic7ed.com | Synced & corrected by QueenMaddie www.addic7ed.com |
13 | 00:00:48,307 | 00:00:49,912 | I don't understand. | I don't understand. |
14 | 00:00:50,264 | 00:00:51,504 | Well, it's quite simple. | Well, it's quite simple. |
15 | 00:00:51,529 | 00:00:55,972 | Having spoken to my solicitors, my barrister, um... | Having spoken to my solicitors, my barrister, um... |
16 | 00:00:56,302 | 00:00:59,047 | learned people from the psychology profession, | learned people from the psychology profession, |
17 | 00:00:59,072 | 00:01:00,543 | I'm not sure if I am guilty. | I'm not sure if I am guilty. |
18 | 00:01:00,568 | 00:01:02,733 | But on-on what grounds? | But on-on what grounds? |
19 | 00:01:02,773 | 00:01:04,413 | In all the months that we've been talking | In all the months that we've been talking |
20 | 00:01:04,453 | 00:01:06,902 | you've not mentioned a plea of insanity once. | you've not mentioned a plea of insanity once. |
21 | 00:01:06,927 | 00:01:09,535 | Not insanity, no. Diminished responsibility. | Not insanity, no. Diminished responsibility. |
22 | 00:01:09,560 | 00:01:11,035 | But am I mad? I don't know. | But am I mad? I don't know. |
23 | 00:01:11,060 | 00:01:15,173 | Madness, as Quixote said, "Madness is seeing life as it is, | Madness, as Quixote said, "Madness is seeing life as it is, |
24 | 00:01:15,213 | 00:01:16,933 | "and not as it should be." | "and not as it should be." |
25 | 00:01:16,972 | 00:01:19,840 | You murdered those men, Des. | You murdered those men, Des. |
26 | 00:01:19,865 | 00:01:21,777 | And you knew what you were doing. | And you knew what you were doing. |
27 | 00:01:21,802 | 00:01:24,482 | Did I? I don't deny taking their lives. | Did I? I don't deny taking their lives. |
28 | 00:01:24,507 | 00:01:25,905 | You know, I must wear the label of a killer, | You know, I must wear the label of a killer, |
29 | 00:01:25,929 | 00:01:27,014 | and maybe I should be hanged for it. | and maybe I should be hanged for it. |
30 | 00:01:27,038 | 00:01:28,740 | But I didn't plan them. | But I didn't plan them. |
31 | 00:01:29,303 | 00:01:30,303 | Never. | Never. |
32 | 00:01:30,328 | 00:01:32,858 | I took them home with much purer intentions. | I took them home with much purer intentions. |
33 | 00:01:32,883 | 00:01:34,723 | Then I'd wake up and they'd be sat there, dead. | Then I'd wake up and they'd be sat there, dead. |
34 | 00:01:34,748 | 00:01:37,013 | Now, no-one feels the weight of that more than me. | Now, no-one feels the weight of that more than me. |
35 | 00:01:37,067 | 00:01:42,923 | But the power of responsibility, at that time, was nil. | But the power of responsibility, at that time, was nil. |
36 | 00:01:43,352 | 00:01:46,733 | I-I look in the mirror, and I see me, yeah? | I-I look in the mirror, and I see me, yeah? |
37 | 00:01:46,899 | 00:01:51,327 | Just me. It's friendly, helpful, responsible me. Just that. | Just me. It's friendly, helpful, responsible me. Just that. |
38 | 00:01:51,352 | 00:01:53,333 | If this was true, then why didn't you go to the police | If this was true, then why didn't you go to the police |
39 | 00:01:53,357 | 00:01:54,882 | after the first time it happened? | after the first time it happened? |
40 | 00:01:54,907 | 00:01:57,373 | Don't you think I contemplated that, Brian? Eh? | Don't you think I contemplated that, Brian? Eh? |
41 | 00:01:57,412 | 00:02:00,798 | Don't you think I wanted to hand myself in, or end it all? | Don't you think I wanted to hand myself in, or end it all? |
42 | 00:02:00,823 | 00:02:02,827 | Y'know? But then... | Y'know? But then... |
43 | 00:02:02,852 | 00:02:06,373 | survival and shame and the future | survival and shame and the future |
44 | 00:02:06,412 | 00:02:08,972 | makes you promise yourself it'll never happen again... | makes you promise yourself it'll never happen again... |
45 | 00:02:08,997 | 00:02:10,610 | till it does. | till it does. |
46 | 00:02:13,259 | 00:02:15,501 | But yeah, I mean... | But yeah, I mean... |
47 | 00:02:16,146 | 00:02:19,774 | had it not been for the dog, I may well have surrendered myself. | had it not been for the dog, I may well have surrendered myself. |
48 | 00:02:20,399 | 00:02:22,012 | All I know is I don't know, | All I know is I don't know, |
49 | 00:02:22,037 | 00:02:24,956 | and thus, a jury needs to decide. | and thus, a jury needs to decide. |
50 | 00:02:25,181 | 00:02:30,342 | The press will be allowed to publish every word spoken in court. | The press will be allowed to publish every word spoken in court. |
51 | 00:02:30,367 | 00:02:34,462 | Every single detail exposed. | Every single detail exposed. |
52 | 00:02:34,641 | 00:02:36,333 | Is that not what you're doing? | Is that not what you're doing? |
53 | 00:02:36,358 | 00:02:38,684 | Well, I'm not exploiting | Well, I'm not exploiting |
54 | 00:02:38,709 | 00:02:41,095 | these young men's tragedies to sell newspapers. | these young men's tragedies to sell newspapers. |
55 | 00:02:41,120 | 00:02:43,321 | No, you're just exploiting me. | No, you're just exploiting me. |
56 | 00:02:45,868 | 00:02:48,468 | I hope you know me better than that. | I hope you know me better than that. |
57 | 00:02:49,239 | 00:02:51,418 | I just want to get to the truth. | I just want to get to the truth. |
58 | 00:02:52,093 | 00:02:53,887 | Don't you? | Don't you? |
59 | 00:03:00,871 | 00:03:04,325 | _ | _ |
60 | 00:03:06,591 | 00:03:07,911 | [KNOCK AT DOOR] | [KNOCK AT DOOR] |
61 | 00:03:09,077 | 00:03:11,450 | Peter, you know Mr Green, QC. | Peter, you know Mr Green, QC. |
62 | 00:03:11,475 | 00:03:12,595 | Allan, please. | Allan, please. |
63 | 00:03:13,150 | 00:03:15,111 | I hear he's got the Krays' brief? | I hear he's got the Krays' brief? |
64 | 00:03:15,136 | 00:03:16,762 | And Ivan Lawrence as QC. | And Ivan Lawrence as QC. |
65 | 00:03:16,787 | 00:03:19,547 | It's a formidable defence team, to say the least. | It's a formidable defence team, to say the least. |
66 | 00:03:19,676 | 00:03:21,926 | Please, take a seat. | Please, take a seat. |
67 | 00:03:23,387 | 00:03:25,909 | I take it their angle's diminished responsibility? | I take it their angle's diminished responsibility? |
68 | 00:03:25,934 | 00:03:29,012 | - Didn't wash with Sutcliffe. - The jury won't buy it. | - Didn't wash with Sutcliffe. - The jury won't buy it. |
69 | 00:03:29,037 | 00:03:31,534 | Sutcliffe didn't watch TV with the bodies. | Sutcliffe didn't watch TV with the bodies. |
70 | 00:03:31,559 | 00:03:33,213 | Nilsen's not insane. | Nilsen's not insane. |
71 | 00:03:33,252 | 00:03:34,870 | They don't have to prove that. | They don't have to prove that. |
72 | 00:03:34,895 | 00:03:36,147 | All they have to do | All they have to do |
73 | 00:03:36,172 | 00:03:38,493 | is show that he was suffering some abnormality of mind | is show that he was suffering some abnormality of mind |
74 | 00:03:38,518 | 00:03:41,089 | and therefore not fully responsible for what he was doing. | and therefore not fully responsible for what he was doing. |
75 | 00:03:41,114 | 00:03:43,743 | We, on the other hand, have to prove that these crimes | We, on the other hand, have to prove that these crimes |
76 | 00:03:43,768 | 00:03:46,247 | were carefully planned and premeditated. | were carefully planned and premeditated. |
77 | 00:03:46,272 | 00:03:48,075 | Surely his confessions do that. | Surely his confessions do that. |
78 | 00:03:48,800 | 00:03:51,489 | I'm afraid the confessions only take us so far. | I'm afraid the confessions only take us so far. |
79 | 00:03:52,716 | 00:03:53,917 | What do you mean? | What do you mean? |
80 | 00:03:53,942 | 00:03:55,708 | He gave you a lot of answers which prove what he did, | He gave you a lot of answers which prove what he did, |
81 | 00:03:55,732 | 00:03:58,567 | but not what mind he was in when he did it. | but not what mind he was in when he did it. |
82 | 00:03:58,592 | 00:04:00,547 | He gave you exactly what he wanted to. | He gave you exactly what he wanted to. |
83 | 00:04:00,572 | 00:04:03,452 | You hardly asked him any probing questions | You hardly asked him any probing questions |
84 | 00:04:03,493 | 00:04:05,012 | about what was on his mind. | about what was on his mind. |
85 | 00:04:05,037 | 00:04:07,556 | Hold on. We didn't want him to suddenly stop talking. | Hold on. We didn't want him to suddenly stop talking. |
86 | 00:04:07,581 | 00:04:09,926 | We needed to identify 15 people. | We needed to identify 15 people. |
87 | 00:04:09,951 | 00:04:13,508 | I understand that, but the effect was he gave you a lot of details | I understand that, but the effect was he gave you a lot of details |
88 | 00:04:13,533 | 00:04:15,942 | that aren't going to help us convict him. | that aren't going to help us convict him. |
89 | 00:04:16,732 | 00:04:19,292 | I'm sorry, are you saying he planned this? | I'm sorry, are you saying he planned this? |
90 | 00:04:20,075 | 00:04:23,010 | We'll never know. But if all we have are the confessions, | We'll never know. But if all we have are the confessions, |
91 | 00:04:23,035 | 00:04:24,575 | then that's not going to be enough. | then that's not going to be enough. |
92 | 00:04:24,600 | 00:04:26,920 | We need more. Much more. | We need more. Much more. |
93 | 00:04:40,333 | 00:04:42,473 | We should have pushed for motive. | We should have pushed for motive. |
94 | 00:04:43,145 | 00:04:45,213 | Don't listen to Green. | Don't listen to Green. |
95 | 00:04:45,457 | 00:04:48,426 | Everybody always thinks they're a better copper than a copper. | Everybody always thinks they're a better copper than a copper. |
96 | 00:04:48,731 | 00:04:49,893 | If he'd have stopped talking | If he'd have stopped talking |
97 | 00:04:49,932 | 00:04:52,801 | there's no way we'd have found the people we did. | there's no way we'd have found the people we did. |
98 | 00:04:55,441 | 00:04:58,228 | Listen, they're just looking for someone to blame | Listen, they're just looking for someone to blame |
99 | 00:04:58,253 | 00:05:00,246 | if this all goes pear-shaped. | if this all goes pear-shaped. |
100 | 00:05:00,732 | 00:05:03,492 | But we're gonna make damned sure that doesn't happen. | But we're gonna make damned sure that doesn't happen. |
101 | 00:05:05,267 | 00:05:06,770 | Yeah. | Yeah. |
102 | 00:05:08,893 | 00:05:10,731 | See you tomorrow. | See you tomorrow. |
103 | 00:05:25,453 | 00:05:27,133 | Thanks for meeting me. | Thanks for meeting me. |
104 | 00:05:27,397 | 00:05:29,457 | Please, take a seat. | Please, take a seat. |
105 | 00:05:30,989 | 00:05:33,653 | I almost didn't come. | I almost didn't come. |
106 | 00:05:34,285 | 00:05:36,113 | But you did. | But you did. |
107 | 00:05:36,559 | 00:05:38,239 | Cos you know this is wrong. | Cos you know this is wrong. |
108 | 00:05:41,989 | 00:05:45,231 | I take it he's written to you over the past few months? | I take it he's written to you over the past few months? |
109 | 00:05:45,256 | 00:05:46,707 | Oh, he has. | Oh, he has. |
110 | 00:05:47,637 | 00:05:49,118 | How much? | How much? |
111 | 00:05:50,308 | 00:05:52,698 | 52 exercise books' worth. | 52 exercise books' worth. |
112 | 00:05:52,723 | 00:05:54,693 | We're gonna need to take a look at them. | We're gonna need to take a look at them. |
113 | 00:05:54,718 | 00:05:56,809 | That could be useful to prove premeditation. | That could be useful to prove premeditation. |
114 | 00:05:56,834 | 00:05:58,325 | - Mr Jay... - All that matters is that | - Mr Jay... - All that matters is that |
115 | 00:05:58,350 | 00:05:59,686 | we find as much evidence as we can | we find as much evidence as we can |
116 | 00:05:59,710 | 00:06:01,370 | that Nilsen was in his right mind. | that Nilsen was in his right mind. |
117 | 00:06:01,395 | 00:06:02,955 | What if he's insane? | What if he's insane? |
118 | 00:06:02,996 | 00:06:04,276 | You think he's insane? | You think he's insane? |
119 | 00:06:04,301 | 00:06:06,153 | Well, it's not for me to decide. | Well, it's not for me to decide. |
120 | 00:06:06,178 | 00:06:09,356 | He's not mad. He knew what he was doing was wrong. | He's not mad. He knew what he was doing was wrong. |
121 | 00:06:09,381 | 00:06:11,284 | Well, I don't deny that. | Well, I don't deny that. |
122 | 00:06:11,309 | 00:06:12,852 | But at the same time, | But at the same time, |
123 | 00:06:12,877 | 00:06:17,237 | he was able to take the head of someone he'd known, | he was able to take the head of someone he'd known, |
124 | 00:06:17,262 | 00:06:20,848 | the severed head, into a cooking pot on the stove, | the severed head, into a cooking pot on the stove, |
125 | 00:06:21,046 | 00:06:22,868 | and let it simmer overnight. | and let it simmer overnight. |
126 | 00:06:23,082 | 00:06:24,973 | And then the next morning, | And then the next morning, |
127 | 00:06:24,998 | 00:06:28,112 | he was able to pour himself a cup of coffee | he was able to pour himself a cup of coffee |
128 | 00:06:28,137 | 00:06:31,492 | and butter a slice of toast, whilst turning up the heat | and butter a slice of toast, whilst turning up the heat |
129 | 00:06:31,517 | 00:06:33,437 | to make sure that the head was boiling properly. | to make sure that the head was boiling properly. |
130 | 00:06:33,462 | 00:06:36,543 | Now that is completely mad. | Now that is completely mad. |
131 | 00:06:37,535 | 00:06:38,801 | I mean... | I mean... |
132 | 00:06:39,868 | 00:06:42,309 | He's really done a number on you, hasn't he? | He's really done a number on you, hasn't he? |
133 | 00:06:43,231 | 00:06:45,598 | You mistake me, Mr Jay. | You mistake me, Mr Jay. |
134 | 00:06:46,313 | 00:06:50,228 | He's not my friend. I know who he is. | He's not my friend. I know who he is. |
135 | 00:06:50,253 | 00:06:51,333 | Do you? | Do you? |
136 | 00:06:52,153 | 00:06:54,428 | Right, well, if there's nothing else... | Right, well, if there's nothing else... |
137 | 00:06:54,707 | 00:06:57,004 | Listen, if he can convince a jury | Listen, if he can convince a jury |
138 | 00:06:57,161 | 00:06:58,509 | that he was out of his mind somehow, | that he was out of his mind somehow, |
139 | 00:06:58,533 | 00:07:00,307 | then he only gets manslaughter. | then he only gets manslaughter. |
140 | 00:07:00,332 | 00:07:02,972 | He goes to a hospital and then in 15 years he's deemed cured, | He goes to a hospital and then in 15 years he's deemed cured, |
141 | 00:07:02,997 | 00:07:05,012 | and he's back out on the streets. | and he's back out on the streets. |
142 | 00:07:05,583 | 00:07:08,489 | Is that justice for the victims and their families? | Is that justice for the victims and their families? |
143 | 00:07:10,395 | 00:07:12,174 | If that happens... | If that happens... |
144 | 00:07:13,551 | 00:07:15,483 | can you live with yourself? | can you live with yourself? |
145 | 00:07:16,477 | 00:07:18,436 | Because I know I can't. | Because I know I can't. |
146 | 00:07:29,035 | 00:07:31,835 | I'll drop the exercise books off at the station. | I'll drop the exercise books off at the station. |
147 | 00:07:40,523 | 00:07:42,412 | But we have a murder weapon. | But we have a murder weapon. |
148 | 00:07:42,437 | 00:07:44,624 | A tie attached to a knotted rope. | A tie attached to a knotted rope. |
149 | 00:07:45,038 | 00:07:46,548 | Seems pretty pre-emptive to me. | Seems pretty pre-emptive to me. |
150 | 00:07:46,573 | 00:07:48,296 | Okay, good. What else? | Okay, good. What else? |
151 | 00:07:48,321 | 00:07:49,757 | We've got Duffey's knives. | We've got Duffey's knives. |
152 | 00:07:49,782 | 00:07:51,611 | Nilsen let them rust in his back garden | Nilsen let them rust in his back garden |
153 | 00:07:51,636 | 00:07:53,381 | so they could never be traced back to Martyn. | so they could never be traced back to Martyn. |
154 | 00:07:53,405 | 00:07:56,733 | That shows knowledge of wrongdoing, therefore criminally sane. | That shows knowledge of wrongdoing, therefore criminally sane. |
155 | 00:07:56,758 | 00:07:58,558 | That's a stretch. | That's a stretch. |
156 | 00:07:59,312 | 00:08:00,857 | What about these books from Masters? | What about these books from Masters? |
157 | 00:08:00,882 | 00:08:02,682 | Surely there's got to be something in here. | Surely there's got to be something in here. |
158 | 00:08:02,707 | 00:08:04,333 | The tragedy of the monochrome man? | The tragedy of the monochrome man? |
159 | 00:08:04,372 | 00:08:06,333 | I mean, most of it's rambling nonsense. | I mean, most of it's rambling nonsense. |
160 | 00:08:06,358 | 00:08:08,319 | They help the defence if anything. | They help the defence if anything. |
161 | 00:08:09,105 | 00:08:10,596 | What about Douglas Stewart? | What about Douglas Stewart? |
162 | 00:08:10,621 | 00:08:13,093 | The press'll have a field day with what happened to Stewart. | The press'll have a field day with what happened to Stewart. |
163 | 00:08:13,809 | 00:08:16,000 | Police embarrassment is hardly relevant now. | Police embarrassment is hardly relevant now. |
164 | 00:08:16,025 | 00:08:18,242 | We have to use him. What else? | We have to use him. What else? |
165 | 00:08:18,765 | 00:08:20,617 | What about the Soho Project? | What about the Soho Project? |
166 | 00:08:20,953 | 00:08:22,453 | What about it? | What about it? |
167 | 00:08:22,492 | 00:08:23,653 | A woman called. | A woman called. |
168 | 00:08:23,693 | 00:08:27,609 | Thinks someone in her therapy group could be a possible victim... | Thinks someone in her therapy group could be a possible victim... |
169 | 00:08:27,634 | 00:08:30,430 | but I thought we weren't looking for them any more. | but I thought we weren't looking for them any more. |
170 | 00:08:32,052 | 00:08:34,720 | Okay, Steve and I will follow that up. | Okay, Steve and I will follow that up. |
171 | 00:08:35,253 | 00:08:37,052 | Is that our lot? | Is that our lot? |
172 | 00:08:37,213 | 00:08:41,338 | Paul Knobbs, in his statement, says... | Paul Knobbs, in his statement, says... |
173 | 00:08:41,363 | 00:08:45,043 | [VOICES FADE] | [VOICES FADE] |
174 | 00:08:51,126 | 00:08:52,486 | Sorry to have called. | Sorry to have called. |
175 | 00:08:52,511 | 00:08:55,212 | It's just he's been having this recurring dream, | It's just he's been having this recurring dream, |
176 | 00:08:55,714 | 00:08:57,933 | but actually, I think he's been attacked. | but actually, I think he's been attacked. |
177 | 00:08:57,958 | 00:08:59,237 | Okay. | Okay. |
178 | 00:08:59,354 | 00:09:01,692 | I hope I'm not wasting your time. | I hope I'm not wasting your time. |
179 | 00:09:01,733 | 00:09:04,019 | Is it all right if we have a word with him? | Is it all right if we have a word with him? |
180 | 00:09:04,846 | 00:09:07,228 | Go easy on him, okay? | Go easy on him, okay? |
181 | 00:09:07,948 | 00:09:10,600 | Of course. What's his name? | Of course. What's his name? |
182 | 00:09:10,625 | 00:09:12,105 | Carl. | Carl. |
183 | 00:09:12,919 | 00:09:14,526 | All right. | All right. |
184 | 00:09:17,472 | 00:09:19,245 | I'm in a dark room. | I'm in a dark room. |
185 | 00:09:19,425 | 00:09:21,971 | I don't know where, and... | I don't know where, and... |
186 | 00:09:22,135 | 00:09:25,190 | there's music but it's calm. | there's music but it's calm. |
187 | 00:09:25,812 | 00:09:29,973 | And then... this man appears. | And then... this man appears. |
188 | 00:09:30,284 | 00:09:33,572 | And I can't see his face, | And I can't see his face, |
189 | 00:09:33,776 | 00:09:35,885 | but he's very close to me. | but he's very close to me. |
190 | 00:09:37,253 | 00:09:40,253 | Um... But I'm not afraid, because... | Um... But I'm not afraid, because... |
191 | 00:09:40,918 | 00:09:42,488 | I'm warm. | I'm warm. |
192 | 00:09:43,089 | 00:09:46,888 | I'm wrapped up in some kind of sleeping bag. | I'm wrapped up in some kind of sleeping bag. |
193 | 00:09:48,647 | 00:09:53,816 | And then, all of a sudden, I feel something around my neck... | And then, all of a sudden, I feel something around my neck... |
194 | 00:09:54,816 | 00:09:58,300 | digging into my throat, and-and choking me. | digging into my throat, and-and choking me. |
195 | 00:09:58,325 | 00:10:01,973 | And I can hear him saying, "Just stay still". | And I can hear him saying, "Just stay still". |
196 | 00:10:02,466 | 00:10:04,812 | And then everything goes dark. | And then everything goes dark. |
197 | 00:10:05,247 | 00:10:08,263 | But then, after a while, I feel... | But then, after a while, I feel... |
198 | 00:10:09,435 | 00:10:10,748 | something on my face, | something on my face, |
199 | 00:10:10,779 | 00:10:15,652 | like... sort of like a dog licking me or something. | like... sort of like a dog licking me or something. |
200 | 00:10:15,677 | 00:10:17,613 | Can you remember what breed? | Can you remember what breed? |
201 | 00:10:18,692 | 00:10:21,692 | Um... No. | Um... No. |
202 | 00:10:26,169 | 00:10:27,930 | Carl? | Carl? |
203 | 00:10:29,625 | 00:10:31,505 | Have you seen this man? | Have you seen this man? |
204 | 00:10:33,982 | 00:10:38,052 | - Yeah, yeah, on the news. - His name is Dennis Nilsen. | - Yeah, yeah, on the news. - His name is Dennis Nilsen. |
205 | 00:10:38,355 | 00:10:41,982 | He killed 15 young men and attempted to kill seven others. | He killed 15 young men and attempted to kill seven others. |
206 | 00:10:43,021 | 00:10:45,292 | All of these men were strangled. | All of these men were strangled. |
207 | 00:10:45,332 | 00:10:48,013 | Mostly with a tie or a headphone cord. | Mostly with a tie or a headphone cord. |
208 | 00:10:48,919 | 00:10:51,503 | But one, he tried to kill with a sleeping bag. | But one, he tried to kill with a sleeping bag. |
209 | 00:10:53,172 | 00:10:54,452 | No... | No... |
210 | 00:10:58,325 | 00:11:01,092 | Cos the man in my dream keeps telling me | Cos the man in my dream keeps telling me |
211 | 00:11:01,117 | 00:11:03,646 | not to get caught up in the zip. | not to get caught up in the zip. |
212 | 00:11:09,613 | 00:11:12,654 | He also said he attempted to drown him | He also said he attempted to drown him |
213 | 00:11:13,125 | 00:11:15,466 | before resuscitating him. | before resuscitating him. |
214 | 00:11:20,185 | 00:11:22,435 | I've never told anyone about the water. | I've never told anyone about the water. |
215 | 00:11:23,582 | 00:11:25,381 | Do you remember the water? | Do you remember the water? |
216 | 00:11:25,527 | 00:11:27,904 | Yeah. Um... | Yeah. Um... |
217 | 00:11:29,074 | 00:11:30,510 | It was cold water, | It was cold water, |
218 | 00:11:30,543 | 00:11:34,135 | and I was being held down. | and I was being held down. |
219 | 00:11:34,160 | 00:11:37,214 | Where? In a bath or a sink? | Where? In a bath or a sink? |
220 | 00:11:37,239 | 00:11:39,759 | I don't understand. Are you... | I don't understand. Are you... |
221 | 00:11:41,446 | 00:11:43,636 | Are you telling me that this actually happened? | Are you telling me that this actually happened? |
222 | 00:11:43,661 | 00:11:44,863 | Yes. | Yes. |
223 | 00:11:46,206 | 00:11:48,853 | I think you're one of Nilsen's attempted victims. | I think you're one of Nilsen's attempted victims. |
224 | 00:11:49,542 | 00:11:51,068 | Because everything that you are telling us | Because everything that you are telling us |
225 | 00:11:51,092 | 00:11:53,212 | aligns to what he told us. | aligns to what he told us. |
226 | 00:11:53,237 | 00:11:55,261 | Can you remember where you met him or, | Can you remember where you met him or, |
227 | 00:11:55,286 | 00:11:57,033 | anything about where he lived? | anything about where he lived? |
228 | 00:11:57,058 | 00:11:58,261 | Well, no... | Well, no... |
229 | 00:11:58,286 | 00:12:00,065 | You said he warned you about the sleeping bag. | You said he warned you about the sleeping bag. |
230 | 00:12:00,089 | 00:12:02,931 | - What did he say exactly? - I don't know. | - What did he say exactly? - I don't know. |
231 | 00:12:02,956 | 00:12:04,029 | When he warned you about the zip, | When he warned you about the zip, |
232 | 00:12:04,053 | 00:12:06,064 | it shows he was planning it way before he did it | it shows he was planning it way before he did it |
233 | 00:12:06,089 | 00:12:08,096 | so I need you to be clear. Come on. | so I need you to be clear. Come on. |
234 | 00:12:08,121 | 00:12:10,307 | - Just try to remember. - I don't wanna do this any more. | - Just try to remember. - I don't wanna do this any more. |
235 | 00:12:10,331 | 00:12:12,463 | Look, you have to. I know this is tough, | Look, you have to. I know this is tough, |
236 | 00:12:12,488 | 00:12:13,854 | - but we need all the details. - Detective. | - but we need all the details. - Detective. |
237 | 00:12:13,878 | 00:12:15,285 | - Just think. - Detective, | - Just think. - Detective, |
238 | 00:12:15,310 | 00:12:16,362 | he's told you he's had enough. | he's told you he's had enough. |
239 | 00:12:16,386 | 00:12:17,456 | I'm aware of that, but | I'm aware of that, but |
240 | 00:12:17,481 | 00:12:19,597 | - we are, I'm-I'm just trying... - Peter. | - we are, I'm-I'm just trying... - Peter. |
241 | 00:12:24,730 | 00:12:25,955 | We can't use him. | We can't use him. |
242 | 00:12:25,980 | 00:12:27,884 | He won't survive cross-examination. | He won't survive cross-examination. |
243 | 00:12:27,909 | 00:12:30,733 | You saw him in there. They'll destroy him. | You saw him in there. They'll destroy him. |
244 | 00:12:32,464 | 00:12:33,908 | I'll come back in a couple of days, | I'll come back in a couple of days, |
245 | 00:12:33,933 | 00:12:35,533 | see if I can get a statement from him | see if I can get a statement from him |
246 | 00:12:35,572 | 00:12:37,134 | and we can read that out in court, | and we can read that out in court, |
247 | 00:12:37,159 | 00:12:38,733 | if we need to. | if we need to. |
248 | 00:12:39,282 | 00:12:41,495 | Peter... we have enough. | Peter... we have enough. |
249 | 00:12:41,520 | 00:12:43,933 | And he led us to the bodies, for fuck's sake. | And he led us to the bodies, for fuck's sake. |
250 | 00:12:52,561 | 00:12:55,464 | For the first day of this, the trial of Dennis Nilsen, | For the first day of this, the trial of Dennis Nilsen, |
251 | 00:12:55,496 | 00:12:58,503 | the unassuming civil servant who's charged with crimes | the unassuming civil servant who's charged with crimes |
252 | 00:12:58,528 | 00:13:01,222 | that have shocked and sickened the nation. | that have shocked and sickened the nation. |
253 | 00:13:01,405 | 00:13:05,228 | Nilsen is charged with six murders and two attempted murders. | Nilsen is charged with six murders and two attempted murders. |
254 | 00:13:05,542 | 00:13:09,013 | Details of a recently identified seventh victim, Graham Allen, | Details of a recently identified seventh victim, Graham Allen, |
255 | 00:13:09,038 | 00:13:11,073 | a heroin addict and petty criminal, | a heroin addict and petty criminal, |
256 | 00:13:11,098 | 00:13:13,776 | will not be featured on the indictment. | will not be featured on the indictment. |
257 | 00:13:14,332 | 00:13:16,939 | - [CROWD SHOUTING] - Masters! | - [CROWD SHOUTING] - Masters! |
258 | 00:13:16,964 | 00:13:19,519 | What's it like being friends with a serial killer? | What's it like being friends with a serial killer? |
259 | 00:13:20,386 | 00:13:23,275 | What's it like rubbing shoulders with a murderer, Masters? | What's it like rubbing shoulders with a murderer, Masters? |
260 | 00:13:23,300 | 00:13:26,065 | [SHOUTING OVER EACH OTHER] | [SHOUTING OVER EACH OTHER] |
261 | 00:13:26,090 | 00:13:28,995 | What's it like being friends with a serial killer? | What's it like being friends with a serial killer? |
262 | 00:13:49,324 | 00:13:50,620 | Steve. | Steve. |
263 | 00:13:51,409 | 00:13:52,847 | You all right? | You all right? |
264 | 00:13:52,872 | 00:13:53,872 | Good. | Good. |
265 | 00:13:54,663 | 00:13:57,303 | - Sleep okay? - No. I never do. | - Sleep okay? - No. I never do. |
266 | 00:14:09,241 | 00:14:11,405 | Oh, here he is. Brian Masters, | Oh, here he is. Brian Masters, |
267 | 00:14:11,430 | 00:14:13,790 | biographer to the murderer of the century. | biographer to the murderer of the century. |
268 | 00:14:13,815 | 00:14:15,536 | Did you see the press outside? | Did you see the press outside? |
269 | 00:14:15,561 | 00:14:17,663 | Jesus, they'll have headlines for weeks. | Jesus, they'll have headlines for weeks. |
270 | 00:14:17,688 | 00:14:19,741 | Revelling in the case, like carrion. | Revelling in the case, like carrion. |
271 | 00:14:19,766 | 00:14:21,999 | One of the papers today had the headline | One of the papers today had the headline |
272 | 00:14:22,024 | 00:14:24,311 | "House Of Horrors - The Trial." | "House Of Horrors - The Trial." |
273 | 00:14:24,336 | 00:14:25,710 | The only "house of horrors" I've ever seen | The only "house of horrors" I've ever seen |
274 | 00:14:25,734 | 00:14:27,134 | is Number Ten Downing Street. | is Number Ten Downing Street. |
275 | 00:14:27,867 | 00:14:30,358 | - They mention you an' all. - Yes, I saw. | - They mention you an' all. - Yes, I saw. |
276 | 00:14:30,383 | 00:14:34,184 | Yeah? How do you feel, being talked about in a national newspaper? | Yeah? How do you feel, being talked about in a national newspaper? |
277 | 00:14:34,976 | 00:14:36,859 | You wanted to see me? | You wanted to see me? |
278 | 00:14:37,412 | 00:14:39,853 | Aye. They've brought me my suit, but no tie. | Aye. They've brought me my suit, but no tie. |
279 | 00:14:40,187 | 00:14:42,249 | I was wondering if I could borrow yours. | I was wondering if I could borrow yours. |
280 | 00:14:44,692 | 00:14:45,929 | Right. | Right. |
281 | 00:14:45,954 | 00:14:48,507 | I know it's an ask, but an open-necked shirt | I know it's an ask, but an open-necked shirt |
282 | 00:14:48,532 | 00:14:51,124 | isn't the kind of impression I want to give out | isn't the kind of impression I want to give out |
283 | 00:14:51,149 | 00:14:52,921 | on the first day of the trial. | on the first day of the trial. |
284 | 00:14:56,363 | 00:14:58,387 | Right. I'll leave it with the guard. | Right. I'll leave it with the guard. |
285 | 00:14:58,412 | 00:15:00,292 | My saviour. | My saviour. |
286 | 00:15:00,482 | 00:15:02,212 | I started out with 15 ties, | I started out with 15 ties, |
287 | 00:15:02,237 | 00:15:04,333 | but now the police have them all in evidence. | but now the police have them all in evidence. |
288 | 00:15:07,491 | 00:15:09,841 | You, the members of the jury, will be asked | You, the members of the jury, will be asked |
289 | 00:15:09,866 | 00:15:13,552 | to ascertain this man's state of mind at the time of the killings | to ascertain this man's state of mind at the time of the killings |
290 | 00:15:13,577 | 00:15:15,988 | and to decide, as a result, | and to decide, as a result, |
291 | 00:15:16,013 | 00:15:20,419 | if he is guilty of the murder of six innocent young men, | if he is guilty of the murder of six innocent young men, |
292 | 00:15:20,444 | 00:15:23,412 | or merely of their manslaughter. | or merely of their manslaughter. |
293 | 00:15:23,566 | 00:15:27,879 | That Mr Nilsen killed these men is not contested by the defence. | That Mr Nilsen killed these men is not contested by the defence. |
294 | 00:15:27,904 | 00:15:29,466 | They will argue, however, | They will argue, however, |
295 | 00:15:29,491 | 00:15:33,787 | that he was out of his mind when he committed his crimes, | that he was out of his mind when he committed his crimes, |
296 | 00:15:33,812 | 00:15:36,724 | and that he cannot be held truly accountable. | and that he cannot be held truly accountable. |
297 | 00:15:36,749 | 00:15:39,526 | But I intend to prove that Mr Nilsen not only | But I intend to prove that Mr Nilsen not only |
298 | 00:15:39,551 | 00:15:41,206 | knew what he was doing, | knew what he was doing, |
299 | 00:15:41,237 | 00:15:45,757 | but that these crimes were premeditated and carefully planned. | but that these crimes were premeditated and carefully planned. |
300 | 00:15:46,166 | 00:15:50,009 | He lured 15 innocent young men | He lured 15 innocent young men |
301 | 00:15:50,034 | 00:15:51,722 | back to his home, | back to his home, |
302 | 00:15:51,747 | 00:15:54,667 | before cruelly murdering them. | before cruelly murdering them. |
303 | 00:15:55,193 | 00:15:57,674 | Mr Nilsen is no madman. | Mr Nilsen is no madman. |
304 | 00:15:57,699 | 00:16:00,339 | He is intelligent and rational, | He is intelligent and rational, |
305 | 00:16:00,371 | 00:16:03,450 | possessing the skills to conceal his crimes, | possessing the skills to conceal his crimes, |
306 | 00:16:03,748 | 00:16:06,222 | and manipulate those around him. | and manipulate those around him. |
307 | 00:16:06,441 | 00:16:12,082 | He is, in short, an experienced and calculating killer. | He is, in short, an experienced and calculating killer. |
308 | 00:16:13,206 | 00:16:17,019 | I have spent a total of 14 hours with Dennis Nilsen, | I have spent a total of 14 hours with Dennis Nilsen, |
309 | 00:16:17,044 | 00:16:20,204 | on 16 separate occasions since his arrest. | on 16 separate occasions since his arrest. |
310 | 00:16:20,229 | 00:16:22,635 | You are a forensic psychiatrist, Dr Hardy? | You are a forensic psychiatrist, Dr Hardy? |
311 | 00:16:22,660 | 00:16:23,836 | - Correct. - Could you share | - Correct. - Could you share |
312 | 00:16:23,861 | 00:16:25,758 | with the court the clinical evaluation | with the court the clinical evaluation |
313 | 00:16:25,783 | 00:16:28,196 | you made of the defendant during these many meetings? | you made of the defendant during these many meetings? |
314 | 00:16:28,221 | 00:16:31,900 | Did you find, for example, any evidence of mental abnormality? | Did you find, for example, any evidence of mental abnormality? |
315 | 00:16:31,925 | 00:16:34,017 | Quite the reverse. I formed the impression very quickly | Quite the reverse. I formed the impression very quickly |
316 | 00:16:34,041 | 00:16:35,664 | that he was a highly intelligent man. | that he was a highly intelligent man. |
317 | 00:16:35,689 | 00:16:39,672 | In my view, Nilsen possesses an extremely rational mind. | In my view, Nilsen possesses an extremely rational mind. |
318 | 00:16:39,697 | 00:16:42,211 | He is capable of feeling very deeply | He is capable of feeling very deeply |
319 | 00:16:42,236 | 00:16:46,108 | and concealing these feelings in order to preserve appearances. | and concealing these feelings in order to preserve appearances. |
320 | 00:16:46,258 | 00:16:49,013 | Thank you. No further questions, my Lord. | Thank you. No further questions, my Lord. |
321 | 00:16:51,394 | 00:16:55,362 | Dennis Nilsen killed perhaps 15 young men, | Dennis Nilsen killed perhaps 15 young men, |
322 | 00:16:55,387 | 00:16:57,278 | for no apparent reason. | for no apparent reason. |
323 | 00:16:57,303 | 00:17:00,098 | He kept their bodies, bathed and dressed them, | He kept their bodies, bathed and dressed them, |
324 | 00:17:00,123 | 00:17:02,004 | watched television programmes with them, | watched television programmes with them, |
325 | 00:17:02,029 | 00:17:05,110 | conversed with them about those programmes. | conversed with them about those programmes. |
326 | 00:17:05,135 | 00:17:09,254 | You say you find no evidence of mental disturbance. | You say you find no evidence of mental disturbance. |
327 | 00:17:09,707 | 00:17:13,481 | Of course strangling people is not normal behaviour. | Of course strangling people is not normal behaviour. |
328 | 00:17:13,506 | 00:17:16,489 | While Nilsen was on remand, | While Nilsen was on remand, |
329 | 00:17:16,514 | 00:17:20,973 | he made a series of protests and complaints | he made a series of protests and complaints |
330 | 00:17:20,998 | 00:17:24,867 | about his treatment in Her Majesty's Prison Herne Hill. | about his treatment in Her Majesty's Prison Herne Hill. |
331 | 00:17:24,892 | 00:17:26,871 | Would you not agree that this shows | Would you not agree that this shows |
332 | 00:17:26,896 | 00:17:29,551 | markedly paranoid tendencies? | markedly paranoid tendencies? |
333 | 00:17:29,751 | 00:17:32,145 | Perhaps. In some cases. | Perhaps. In some cases. |
334 | 00:17:32,170 | 00:17:35,748 | And in this case, in fact, his behaviour became so extreme, | And in this case, in fact, his behaviour became so extreme, |
335 | 00:17:35,773 | 00:17:41,524 | so erratic, that he was recently put down as a suicide risk. | so erratic, that he was recently put down as a suicide risk. |
336 | 00:17:41,900 | 00:17:43,499 | Could you tell us, Dr Hardy, | Could you tell us, Dr Hardy, |
337 | 00:17:43,524 | 00:17:46,422 | who the psychiatrist was who recommended this step? | who the psychiatrist was who recommended this step? |
338 | 00:17:48,324 | 00:17:49,428 | I did. | I did. |
339 | 00:17:49,453 | 00:17:51,475 | So, would you not agree | So, would you not agree |
340 | 00:17:51,500 | 00:17:54,313 | that someone at risk of suicide is, by definition, | that someone at risk of suicide is, by definition, |
341 | 00:17:54,338 | 00:17:56,852 | suffering a mental disorder? | suffering a mental disorder? |
342 | 00:17:57,863 | 00:18:02,266 | I suppose, in strict terms, that is true. | I suppose, in strict terms, that is true. |
343 | 00:18:02,291 | 00:18:04,730 | Thank you. No further questions, my Lord. | Thank you. No further questions, my Lord. |
344 | 00:18:26,483 | 00:18:27,884 | Miss Mead? | Miss Mead? |
345 | 00:18:29,103 | 00:18:31,343 | They're using what happened to Graham, | They're using what happened to Graham, |
346 | 00:18:31,647 | 00:18:33,625 | making it all public, | making it all public, |
347 | 00:18:33,794 | 00:18:35,828 | but he doesn't get justice? | but he doesn't get justice? |
348 | 00:18:36,852 | 00:18:38,391 | I know. | I know. |
349 | 00:18:38,919 | 00:18:42,439 | Look, there are certain details about his case that can... | Look, there are certain details about his case that can... |
350 | 00:18:42,464 | 00:18:43,852 | You didn't give a shit about him | You didn't give a shit about him |
351 | 00:18:43,877 | 00:18:46,000 | when you thought he was just a junkie who OD'd | when you thought he was just a junkie who OD'd |
352 | 00:18:46,025 | 00:18:48,144 | in a squat or a bedsit somewhere. | in a squat or a bedsit somewhere. |
353 | 00:18:48,169 | 00:18:51,969 | But now, you're gonna bring up every little detail. | But now, you're gonna bring up every little detail. |
354 | 00:18:54,896 | 00:18:56,416 | I'm sorry. | I'm sorry. |
355 | 00:18:59,080 | 00:19:00,801 | No, you're not. | No, you're not. |
356 | 00:19:01,962 | 00:19:05,203 | Do you have any fucking idea what you've put me through? | Do you have any fucking idea what you've put me through? |
357 | 00:19:06,584 | 00:19:09,039 | And he won't even get justice? | And he won't even get justice? |
358 | 00:19:11,883 | 00:19:14,141 | All you lot care about | All you lot care about |
359 | 00:19:14,490 | 00:19:17,930 | is you're the people that caught Dennis Nilsen. | is you're the people that caught Dennis Nilsen. |
360 | 00:19:21,423 | 00:19:24,236 | Peter. We're back in. | Peter. We're back in. |
361 | 00:19:37,080 | 00:19:38,502 | So, Mr Stewart, | So, Mr Stewart, |
362 | 00:19:38,527 | 00:19:40,527 | after meeting him in the Golden Lion, | after meeting him in the Golden Lion, |
363 | 00:19:40,552 | 00:19:43,525 | Mr Nilsen suggested that you both go back to his residence | Mr Nilsen suggested that you both go back to his residence |
364 | 00:19:43,550 | 00:19:45,924 | - to continue drinking? - That's right. | - to continue drinking? - That's right. |
365 | 00:19:45,949 | 00:19:49,642 | 195 Melrose Avenue. I remember it very clearly. | 195 Melrose Avenue. I remember it very clearly. |
366 | 00:19:49,667 | 00:19:52,767 | - And what happened next? - We had a couple more pints. | - And what happened next? - We had a couple more pints. |
367 | 00:19:52,792 | 00:19:56,032 | He offered me vodka but I said, "It's not my drink". | He offered me vodka but I said, "It's not my drink". |
368 | 00:19:56,736 | 00:19:59,924 | Then he asked me to go to bed with him. | Then he asked me to go to bed with him. |
369 | 00:19:59,949 | 00:20:02,017 | I said that wasn't my thing either. | I said that wasn't my thing either. |
370 | 00:20:02,042 | 00:20:04,580 | So I fell asleep on the sofa. | So I fell asleep on the sofa. |
371 | 00:20:04,675 | 00:20:08,174 | I woke up, must have been a few hours later, | I woke up, must have been a few hours later, |
372 | 00:20:08,199 | 00:20:11,878 | and my ankles were tied together with a tie. | and my ankles were tied together with a tie. |
373 | 00:20:12,201 | 00:20:15,447 | Nilsen was kneeling on my chest, trying to strangle me. | Nilsen was kneeling on my chest, trying to strangle me. |
374 | 00:20:15,472 | 00:20:16,791 | But I fought him off. | But I fought him off. |
375 | 00:20:16,816 | 00:20:18,572 | I wasn't going down without a fight. | I wasn't going down without a fight. |
376 | 00:20:18,597 | 00:20:20,314 | How did he respond to that? | How did he respond to that? |
377 | 00:20:20,806 | 00:20:23,807 | He started shouting, "Take my money, take my money!" | He started shouting, "Take my money, take my money!" |
378 | 00:20:23,832 | 00:20:25,479 | Really loud, like. | Really loud, like. |
379 | 00:20:31,587 | 00:20:34,369 | But you weren't stealing from him? | But you weren't stealing from him? |
380 | 00:20:34,394 | 00:20:37,338 | Seemed like he was trying to make the neighbours think | Seemed like he was trying to make the neighbours think |
381 | 00:20:37,363 | 00:20:39,080 | he was being attacked himself. | he was being attacked himself. |
382 | 00:20:39,105 | 00:20:41,787 | He was trying to create an alibi. | He was trying to create an alibi. |
383 | 00:20:41,812 | 00:20:44,658 | Hardly the act of a man out of his mind. | Hardly the act of a man out of his mind. |
384 | 00:20:44,978 | 00:20:47,549 | Thank you, Mr Stewart. No further questions, my Lord. | Thank you, Mr Stewart. No further questions, my Lord. |
385 | 00:20:48,026 | 00:20:51,197 | In your police statement, Mr Stewart, | In your police statement, Mr Stewart, |
386 | 00:20:51,222 | 00:20:55,174 | you said you stayed for another drink with Nilsen. | you said you stayed for another drink with Nilsen. |
387 | 00:20:55,567 | 00:20:59,168 | Another drink, after he allegedly tried to kill you? | Another drink, after he allegedly tried to kill you? |
388 | 00:20:59,536 | 00:21:02,468 | Well, I thought that was the best way to calm him down. | Well, I thought that was the best way to calm him down. |
389 | 00:21:02,493 | 00:21:03,612 | I see. | I see. |
390 | 00:21:03,652 | 00:21:04,736 | You mentioned earlier | You mentioned earlier |
391 | 00:21:04,761 | 00:21:08,801 | that you remembered seeing the address as 195 Melrose Avenue. | that you remembered seeing the address as 195 Melrose Avenue. |
392 | 00:21:08,901 | 00:21:11,205 | How did you remember the address so clearly? | How did you remember the address so clearly? |
393 | 00:21:11,386 | 00:21:13,386 | I saw the number on the door. | I saw the number on the door. |
394 | 00:21:13,613 | 00:21:16,971 | You also told us that when you met him in the pub | You also told us that when you met him in the pub |
395 | 00:21:16,996 | 00:21:20,047 | the defendant introduced himself to you as Dennis. | the defendant introduced himself to you as Dennis. |
396 | 00:21:20,072 | 00:21:22,018 | - Yeah. - And that when you got to his house | - Yeah. - And that when you got to his house |
397 | 00:21:22,043 | 00:21:25,494 | to continue your drinking session together, he offered you vodka. | to continue your drinking session together, he offered you vodka. |
398 | 00:21:25,827 | 00:21:27,107 | That's right. | That's right. |
399 | 00:21:27,132 | 00:21:30,424 | Unfortunately, none of these things are true, are they? | Unfortunately, none of these things are true, are they? |
400 | 00:21:30,449 | 00:21:32,729 | The defendant's first name may be Dennis | The defendant's first name may be Dennis |
401 | 00:21:32,754 | 00:21:35,554 | but he always calls himself Des. | but he always calls himself Des. |
402 | 00:21:35,579 | 00:21:38,861 | He always drinks rum, not vodka, | He always drinks rum, not vodka, |
403 | 00:21:38,886 | 00:21:42,213 | and there is no number plate on the house at Melrose Avenue. | and there is no number plate on the house at Melrose Avenue. |
404 | 00:21:42,398 | 00:21:43,957 | There never has been. | There never has been. |
405 | 00:21:43,982 | 00:21:46,346 | I dunno, I thought there was. | I dunno, I thought there was. |
406 | 00:21:46,371 | 00:21:49,650 | Mm, but you seemed so sure of the details before. | Mm, but you seemed so sure of the details before. |
407 | 00:21:49,675 | 00:21:51,036 | And why might that be? | And why might that be? |
408 | 00:21:51,061 | 00:21:55,460 | Why might someone go to the trouble of furnishing their testimony | Why might someone go to the trouble of furnishing their testimony |
409 | 00:21:55,485 | 00:21:58,604 | with a great deal of specific detail | with a great deal of specific detail |
410 | 00:21:58,629 | 00:22:01,405 | that seems to be pulled from thin air? | that seems to be pulled from thin air? |
411 | 00:22:01,430 | 00:22:04,295 | I put it to you, Mr Stewart, that your testimony to this court | I put it to you, Mr Stewart, that your testimony to this court |
412 | 00:22:04,320 | 00:22:06,281 | is nothing more than a pack of lies, | is nothing more than a pack of lies, |
413 | 00:22:06,306 | 00:22:09,678 | dreamt up to satisfy a tabloid newspaper. | dreamt up to satisfy a tabloid newspaper. |
414 | 00:22:11,029 | 00:22:13,590 | Well, Mr Stewart? | Well, Mr Stewart? |
415 | 00:22:14,232 | 00:22:16,631 | Have you sold your story? | Have you sold your story? |
416 | 00:22:17,404 | 00:22:21,228 | Er... Y... Yes. | Er... Y... Yes. |
417 | 00:22:21,829 | 00:22:24,533 | No further questions, my Lord. | No further questions, my Lord. |
418 | 00:22:27,006 | 00:22:28,327 | How dare he! | How dare he! |
419 | 00:22:28,352 | 00:22:30,415 | Standing up there in that ridiculous suit, | Standing up there in that ridiculous suit, |
420 | 00:22:30,440 | 00:22:32,040 | spouting those lies. | spouting those lies. |
421 | 00:22:32,065 | 00:22:34,704 | So you're saying that Douglas Stewart is lying? | So you're saying that Douglas Stewart is lying? |
422 | 00:22:34,729 | 00:22:36,848 | That you didn't try and kill him? | That you didn't try and kill him? |
423 | 00:22:36,873 | 00:22:39,438 | Yes, I did. But not as he described it. | Yes, I did. But not as he described it. |
424 | 00:22:39,463 | 00:22:41,977 | This is about absolute truth, Brian. | This is about absolute truth, Brian. |
425 | 00:22:42,313 | 00:22:44,845 | It has to be, otherwise we don't get any answers. | It has to be, otherwise we don't get any answers. |
426 | 00:22:45,464 | 00:22:47,523 | You cannot possibly believe | You cannot possibly believe |
427 | 00:22:47,548 | 00:22:50,140 | that what you put him through out there was justified. | that what you put him through out there was justified. |
428 | 00:22:50,165 | 00:22:52,413 | What are you getting so agitated about? | What are you getting so agitated about? |
429 | 00:22:52,438 | 00:22:55,360 | I'm giving you a wonderful final act for your book. | I'm giving you a wonderful final act for your book. |
430 | 00:22:55,923 | 00:22:57,938 | Like you said about the book, Brian, | Like you said about the book, Brian, |
431 | 00:22:57,963 | 00:23:00,374 | it's not up to us to make subjective decisions. | it's not up to us to make subjective decisions. |
432 | 00:23:00,399 | 00:23:02,345 | We have to remain objective in all of this. | We have to remain objective in all of this. |
433 | 00:23:02,370 | 00:23:05,087 | Thus, it is up to the jury to decide | Thus, it is up to the jury to decide |
434 | 00:23:05,112 | 00:23:06,759 | whether I'm just bad... | whether I'm just bad... |
435 | 00:23:06,784 | 00:23:08,751 | or outrageously bad. | or outrageously bad. |
436 | 00:23:17,554 | 00:23:19,675 | - See you back in chambers. - Thank you. | - See you back in chambers. - Thank you. |
437 | 00:23:19,769 | 00:23:21,424 | Did you know he'd sold his story to the press? | Did you know he'd sold his story to the press? |
438 | 00:23:21,448 | 00:23:22,462 | Course I didn't! | Course I didn't! |
439 | 00:23:22,487 | 00:23:25,247 | We're lucky the judge didn't strike his testimony from the record. | We're lucky the judge didn't strike his testimony from the record. |
440 | 00:23:25,615 | 00:23:27,790 | It can't have harmed us that much, right? | It can't have harmed us that much, right? |
441 | 00:23:28,141 | 00:23:30,516 | Stewart's credibility is gone, his testimony is now useless. | Stewart's credibility is gone, his testimony is now useless. |
442 | 00:23:30,541 | 00:23:31,741 | We're in a lot of trouble. | We're in a lot of trouble. |
443 | 00:23:31,766 | 00:23:32,923 | Surely we still have enough? | Surely we still have enough? |
444 | 00:23:32,948 | 00:23:35,589 | I mean, we have the tie with the knotted rope, and Duffey's knives. | I mean, we have the tie with the knotted rope, and Duffey's knives. |
445 | 00:23:35,614 | 00:23:37,438 | All those show premeditation to murder. | All those show premeditation to murder. |
446 | 00:23:37,463 | 00:23:39,158 | Peter, physical evidence is all very good and well, | Peter, physical evidence is all very good and well, |
447 | 00:23:39,182 | 00:23:40,438 | but it's also circumstantial. | but it's also circumstantial. |
448 | 00:23:40,463 | 00:23:41,993 | We had an eye witness, a survivor, | We had an eye witness, a survivor, |
449 | 00:23:42,018 | 00:23:44,602 | and without that, we're significantly weaker. | and without that, we're significantly weaker. |
450 | 00:23:45,297 | 00:23:46,626 | Sorry. | Sorry. |
451 | 00:24:01,833 | 00:24:03,391 | Hello, Carl. | Hello, Carl. |
452 | 00:24:03,777 | 00:24:05,138 | Can I come in? | Can I come in? |
453 | 00:24:15,386 | 00:24:17,106 | How have you been? | How have you been? |
454 | 00:24:18,436 | 00:24:20,436 | Things keep coming back to me. | Things keep coming back to me. |
455 | 00:24:22,231 | 00:24:24,030 | What kind of things? | What kind of things? |
456 | 00:24:27,540 | 00:24:29,540 | He said he liked my shoes. | He said he liked my shoes. |
457 | 00:24:34,396 | 00:24:35,676 | Thank you. | Thank you. |
458 | 00:24:39,590 | 00:24:43,791 | The doctor said it was all nightmares, caused... | The doctor said it was all nightmares, caused... |
459 | 00:24:45,790 | 00:24:49,830 | I'd had a bit of a hard time with an ex of mine. | I'd had a bit of a hard time with an ex of mine. |
460 | 00:24:51,477 | 00:24:54,398 | They even put me on tablets to block everything out. | They even put me on tablets to block everything out. |
461 | 00:25:01,388 | 00:25:03,708 | Listen, Carl, um... | Listen, Carl, um... |
462 | 00:25:06,055 | 00:25:08,255 | The trial isn't going how we'd hoped. | The trial isn't going how we'd hoped. |
463 | 00:25:08,536 | 00:25:11,005 | We think your testimony could be crucial. | We think your testimony could be crucial. |
464 | 00:25:11,030 | 00:25:12,942 | But I've already given my statement. | But I've already given my statement. |
465 | 00:25:13,407 | 00:25:15,067 | The man said that would be enough. | The man said that would be enough. |
466 | 00:25:15,092 | 00:25:18,453 | I know, but we need you to give it in court. | I know, but we need you to give it in court. |
467 | 00:25:19,413 | 00:25:20,739 | What, with him there? | What, with him there? |
468 | 00:25:20,764 | 00:25:23,255 | - You wouldn't have to be close to him. - No, I can't. | - You wouldn't have to be close to him. - No, I can't. |
469 | 00:25:23,280 | 00:25:26,942 | - Carl... - He killed me, Mr Jay. | - Carl... - He killed me, Mr Jay. |
470 | 00:25:27,144 | 00:25:30,864 | And then he... brought me back to life. | And then he... brought me back to life. |
471 | 00:25:31,435 | 00:25:34,317 | I can't imagine what you've been through, Carl. | I can't imagine what you've been through, Carl. |
472 | 00:25:34,892 | 00:25:36,677 | I really can't. | I really can't. |
473 | 00:25:37,771 | 00:25:39,442 | But please believe me, | But please believe me, |
474 | 00:25:39,467 | 00:25:42,388 | if he gets a lesser sentence, you'll find no peace. | if he gets a lesser sentence, you'll find no peace. |
475 | 00:25:42,763 | 00:25:45,162 | I'm sorry. I can't... | I'm sorry. I can't... |
476 | 00:25:47,018 | 00:25:49,939 | be in the same room as him. | be in the same room as him. |
477 | 00:25:51,395 | 00:25:53,224 | I can't go back there. | I can't go back there. |
478 | 00:25:55,493 | 00:25:57,810 | Then they'll subpoena you anyway. | Then they'll subpoena you anyway. |
479 | 00:25:57,835 | 00:26:00,115 | You'll be forced to testify. | You'll be forced to testify. |
480 | 00:26:03,275 | 00:26:05,474 | So I don't have a choice? | So I don't have a choice? |
481 | 00:26:15,219 | 00:26:16,738 | [DOOR OPENS] | [DOOR OPENS] |
482 | 00:26:23,340 | 00:26:25,261 | [DOOR SLAMS SHUT] | [DOOR SLAMS SHUT] |
483 | 00:26:25,930 | 00:26:28,606 | I swear by Almighty God that the evidence I shall give | I swear by Almighty God that the evidence I shall give |
484 | 00:26:28,631 | 00:26:32,130 | shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing by the truth. | shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing by the truth. |
485 | 00:26:33,334 | 00:26:35,263 | Could you recount, Mr Stottor, | Could you recount, Mr Stottor, |
486 | 00:26:35,288 | 00:26:37,989 | the events of that night in April 1982, | the events of that night in April 1982, |
487 | 00:26:38,014 | 00:26:39,453 | when you met the defendant? | when you met the defendant? |
488 | 00:26:45,220 | 00:26:49,188 | Where, for example, did you meet Mr Nilsen? | Where, for example, did you meet Mr Nilsen? |
489 | 00:26:49,325 | 00:26:51,372 | In The Black Cap, Camden. | In The Black Cap, Camden. |
490 | 00:26:51,606 | 00:26:53,192 | I was depressed. | I was depressed. |
491 | 00:26:53,497 | 00:26:56,239 | I'd just broken up with someone. | I'd just broken up with someone. |
492 | 00:26:56,264 | 00:26:59,264 | Speak up, please, Mr Stottor. | Speak up, please, Mr Stottor. |
493 | 00:27:03,131 | 00:27:04,610 | He was nice to me. | He was nice to me. |
494 | 00:27:04,989 | 00:27:07,435 | In what sense was he nice? | In what sense was he nice? |
495 | 00:27:07,654 | 00:27:10,661 | He bought me drinks. | He bought me drinks. |
496 | 00:27:10,686 | 00:27:13,886 | Er... He asked me about my family. | Er... He asked me about my family. |
497 | 00:27:14,253 | 00:27:16,653 | He asked if you had family? | He asked if you had family? |
498 | 00:27:16,773 | 00:27:21,493 | Yes, and then he invited me back to his flat for a drink. | Yes, and then he invited me back to his flat for a drink. |
499 | 00:27:22,222 | 00:27:25,802 | Um... We just drank a lot and then he said | Um... We just drank a lot and then he said |
500 | 00:27:25,827 | 00:27:28,278 | I could go to sleep on his bed. | I could go to sleep on his bed. |
501 | 00:27:28,303 | 00:27:31,083 | And then he warned me not to get caught | And then he warned me not to get caught |
502 | 00:27:31,108 | 00:27:33,388 | in the zip of the sleeping bag. | in the zip of the sleeping bag. |
503 | 00:27:33,569 | 00:27:34,849 | Why do you think that was? | Why do you think that was? |
504 | 00:27:34,874 | 00:27:37,034 | Was it perhaps because he was planning an alibi | Was it perhaps because he was planning an alibi |
505 | 00:27:37,059 | 00:27:39,286 | - in case you managed to escape? - Objection, my Lord. | - in case you managed to escape? - Objection, my Lord. |
506 | 00:27:39,311 | 00:27:41,552 | - Leading. - Sustained. | - Leading. - Sustained. |
507 | 00:27:41,641 | 00:27:43,841 | Tell us what happened next. | Tell us what happened next. |
508 | 00:27:50,644 | 00:27:52,708 | I woke up and I couldn't breathe. | I woke up and I couldn't breathe. |
509 | 00:27:53,129 | 00:27:56,669 | He was behind me and... | He was behind me and... |
510 | 00:27:56,694 | 00:27:59,294 | I could feel something digging into my neck. | I could feel something digging into my neck. |
511 | 00:28:00,771 | 00:28:03,606 | The pressure got worse... | The pressure got worse... |
512 | 00:28:03,959 | 00:28:06,169 | and the pain was unbearable. | and the pain was unbearable. |
513 | 00:28:06,194 | 00:28:07,908 | I couldn't see, | I couldn't see, |
514 | 00:28:07,933 | 00:28:10,833 | or speak, or swallow. | or speak, or swallow. |
515 | 00:28:10,858 | 00:28:13,552 | And I could hear him saying, "Keep still". | And I could hear him saying, "Keep still". |
516 | 00:28:14,627 | 00:28:17,880 | The next thing I knew, I was in water. | The next thing I knew, I was in water. |
517 | 00:28:18,928 | 00:28:22,614 | In a bath. Being pushed down. Again and again. | In a bath. Being pushed down. Again and again. |
518 | 00:28:22,685 | 00:28:26,684 | And I didn't know where I was or what was happening. | And I didn't know where I was or what was happening. |
519 | 00:28:26,709 | 00:28:30,325 | And I swallowed water. | And I swallowed water. |
520 | 00:28:30,752 | 00:28:34,591 | I couldn't resist any more and I realised... | I couldn't resist any more and I realised... |
521 | 00:28:35,466 | 00:28:37,778 | that I was dying. | that I was dying. |
522 | 00:28:39,234 | 00:28:40,888 | Thank you, Mr Stottor. | Thank you, Mr Stottor. |
523 | 00:28:40,913 | 00:28:42,731 | No further questions, my Lord. | No further questions, my Lord. |
524 | 00:28:43,011 | 00:28:46,724 | You have an alter-ego, Mr Stottor, do you not? | You have an alter-ego, Mr Stottor, do you not? |
525 | 00:28:47,263 | 00:28:49,422 | Khara Le Fox. | Khara Le Fox. |
526 | 00:28:49,591 | 00:28:51,302 | A drag act. | A drag act. |
527 | 00:28:51,327 | 00:28:53,411 | You're a female impersonator. | You're a female impersonator. |
528 | 00:28:53,436 | 00:28:55,028 | I used to be, yes. | I used to be, yes. |
529 | 00:28:55,053 | 00:28:57,817 | You've already been asked, Mr Stottor, | You've already been asked, Mr Stottor, |
530 | 00:28:57,842 | 00:28:59,653 | if you could speak up | if you could speak up |
531 | 00:28:59,678 | 00:29:02,028 | for the benefit of the court? | for the benefit of the court? |
532 | 00:29:02,372 | 00:29:03,512 | [LOUDER] Yes. | [LOUDER] Yes. |
533 | 00:29:04,498 | 00:29:05,973 | But... | But... |
534 | 00:29:06,546 | 00:29:11,065 | since the attack, I'm not able to sing any more. | since the attack, I'm not able to sing any more. |
535 | 00:29:11,090 | 00:29:14,251 | And you had several relationships with men, | And you had several relationships with men, |
536 | 00:29:14,276 | 00:29:17,508 | including one which became abusive. | including one which became abusive. |
537 | 00:29:17,533 | 00:29:21,339 | Your night with Nilsen was, therefore, | Your night with Nilsen was, therefore, |
538 | 00:29:21,364 | 00:29:24,395 | not your first violent homosexual encounter... | not your first violent homosexual encounter... |
539 | 00:29:24,420 | 00:29:27,005 | My Lord, I must object to this line of questioning. | My Lord, I must object to this line of questioning. |
540 | 00:29:27,030 | 00:29:29,309 | A history of deviant encounters | A history of deviant encounters |
541 | 00:29:29,334 | 00:29:32,669 | raises the possibility of a sex game gone wrong, my Lord. | raises the possibility of a sex game gone wrong, my Lord. |
542 | 00:29:32,694 | 00:29:35,770 | Sustained. Move on, Mr Lawrence. | Sustained. Move on, Mr Lawrence. |
543 | 00:29:36,228 | 00:29:38,817 | Now, could you tell us, Mr Stottor, | Now, could you tell us, Mr Stottor, |
544 | 00:29:38,842 | 00:29:42,332 | where you woke up after you had been in the bath? | where you woke up after you had been in the bath? |
545 | 00:29:43,294 | 00:29:44,533 | On the bed. | On the bed. |
546 | 00:29:44,572 | 00:29:48,332 | On the bed. And was the room warm or cold? | On the bed. And was the room warm or cold? |
547 | 00:29:48,809 | 00:29:49,942 | Warm. | Warm. |
548 | 00:29:49,967 | 00:29:52,145 | Nilsen had heated the room, had he not? | Nilsen had heated the room, had he not? |
549 | 00:29:52,170 | 00:29:55,528 | He had put on all the bars on the electric fire. | He had put on all the bars on the electric fire. |
550 | 00:29:56,738 | 00:29:59,658 | Yes, I suppose so. | Yes, I suppose so. |
551 | 00:29:59,754 | 00:30:03,215 | And how long after you woke up did you leave the flat? | And how long after you woke up did you leave the flat? |
552 | 00:30:03,240 | 00:30:08,137 | Well, I kept falling asleep, so maybe one or two days. | Well, I kept falling asleep, so maybe one or two days. |
553 | 00:30:08,162 | 00:30:09,856 | One or two days. | One or two days. |
554 | 00:30:09,881 | 00:30:13,231 | Did Nilsen keep you under duress? | Did Nilsen keep you under duress? |
555 | 00:30:13,256 | 00:30:18,450 | No, but I was very confused... | No, but I was very confused... |
556 | 00:30:18,575 | 00:30:20,778 | and also in a lot of pain. | and also in a lot of pain. |
557 | 00:30:20,803 | 00:30:22,200 | Did he, in fact, | Did he, in fact, |
558 | 00:30:22,225 | 00:30:26,225 | walk you to the tube station when you wanted to go? | walk you to the tube station when you wanted to go? |
559 | 00:30:27,062 | 00:30:28,181 | Yes. | Yes. |
560 | 00:30:28,206 | 00:30:32,123 | This supposedly cold and calculating killer, | This supposedly cold and calculating killer, |
561 | 00:30:32,148 | 00:30:34,490 | with every opportunity to finish the job, | with every opportunity to finish the job, |
562 | 00:30:34,515 | 00:30:38,412 | instead let you sleep in a warm bed for days, | instead let you sleep in a warm bed for days, |
563 | 00:30:38,437 | 00:30:40,865 | before seeing you home safely. | before seeing you home safely. |
564 | 00:30:40,890 | 00:30:44,130 | In fact, aside from the incident itself, | In fact, aside from the incident itself, |
565 | 00:30:44,155 | 00:30:48,810 | did he not show you more care and kindness that evening | did he not show you more care and kindness that evening |
566 | 00:30:48,835 | 00:30:52,740 | than anyone else in your life had done for a very long time? | than anyone else in your life had done for a very long time? |
567 | 00:30:55,220 | 00:30:56,659 | Yes. | Yes. |
568 | 00:30:59,309 | 00:31:01,269 | That's what I can't understand. | That's what I can't understand. |
569 | 00:31:02,403 | 00:31:04,762 | Is he my murderer or my saviour? | Is he my murderer or my saviour? |
570 | 00:31:05,993 | 00:31:10,201 | How peculiar that is. | How peculiar that is. |
571 | 00:31:11,407 | 00:31:13,654 | No further questions, my Lord. | No further questions, my Lord. |
572 | 00:31:15,274 | 00:31:17,514 | You may step down, Mr Stottor. | You may step down, Mr Stottor. |
573 | 00:31:23,053 | 00:31:24,533 | You did really well in there. | You did really well in there. |
574 | 00:31:24,795 | 00:31:25,926 | Listen, Carl... | Listen, Carl... |
575 | 00:31:25,951 | 00:31:27,428 | I want to go home now. | I want to go home now. |
576 | 00:31:27,476 | 00:31:30,451 | [CROWD CALLS OUT] | [CROWD CALLS OUT] |
577 | 00:31:30,476 | 00:31:33,310 | [MAN SHOUTS] He should have killed you, you queer! | [MAN SHOUTS] He should have killed you, you queer! |
578 | 00:31:47,651 | 00:31:50,381 | [VOICES FADE] | [VOICES FADE] |
579 | 00:31:56,213 | 00:31:57,685 | Mr Jay... | Mr Jay... |
580 | 00:32:05,679 | 00:32:08,170 | I feel I owe you an apology. | I feel I owe you an apology. |
581 | 00:32:09,916 | 00:32:11,607 | You were right. | You were right. |
582 | 00:32:12,479 | 00:32:13,928 | He's not insane. | He's not insane. |
583 | 00:32:14,647 | 00:32:17,771 | He knew exactly what he was doing. | He knew exactly what he was doing. |
584 | 00:32:18,677 | 00:32:23,236 | As much then as he does now. | As much then as he does now. |
585 | 00:32:42,846 | 00:32:46,100 | [PHOTOGRAPHERS SHOUT] | [PHOTOGRAPHERS SHOUT] |
586 | 00:33:16,849 | 00:33:18,329 | Detective, are you confident? | Detective, are you confident? |
587 | 00:33:18,354 | 00:33:20,753 | Do you think you'll get justice for the victims, Detective? | Do you think you'll get justice for the victims, Detective? |
588 | 00:33:21,216 | 00:33:23,576 | In the following days you interviewed him at length. | In the following days you interviewed him at length. |
589 | 00:33:23,601 | 00:33:25,012 | Is that correct? | Is that correct? |
590 | 00:33:25,045 | 00:33:28,146 | Yes, we interviewed him for a total of 31 hours. | Yes, we interviewed him for a total of 31 hours. |
591 | 00:33:28,171 | 00:33:29,612 | And in those 31 hours, | And in those 31 hours, |
592 | 00:33:29,637 | 00:33:33,118 | did Mr Nilsen ever mention visions or voices in his head | did Mr Nilsen ever mention visions or voices in his head |
593 | 00:33:33,143 | 00:33:35,576 | - telling him to commit his crimes? - No. | - telling him to commit his crimes? - No. |
594 | 00:33:35,601 | 00:33:36,857 | Did he ever show any signs at all | Did he ever show any signs at all |
595 | 00:33:36,881 | 00:33:39,006 | of being out of his mind, so to speak, | of being out of his mind, so to speak, |
596 | 00:33:39,031 | 00:33:41,014 | or mentally unwell in any way? | or mentally unwell in any way? |
597 | 00:33:41,053 | 00:33:42,805 | No. Quite the opposite, in fact. | No. Quite the opposite, in fact. |
598 | 00:33:42,830 | 00:33:45,973 | He seemed... calm. | He seemed... calm. |
599 | 00:33:46,167 | 00:33:48,675 | Collected. In control. | Collected. In control. |
600 | 00:33:48,700 | 00:33:50,940 | - Hardly a madman. - No. | - Hardly a madman. - No. |
601 | 00:33:51,165 | 00:33:52,885 | Detective Chief Inspector Jay, | Detective Chief Inspector Jay, |
602 | 00:33:52,910 | 00:33:54,102 | could you please tell the court, | could you please tell the court, |
603 | 00:33:54,126 | 00:33:56,388 | for how long have you been a police officer? | for how long have you been a police officer? |
604 | 00:33:56,558 | 00:33:58,242 | Almost 23 years. | Almost 23 years. |
605 | 00:33:58,267 | 00:34:00,379 | And based on those years of experience, | And based on those years of experience, |
606 | 00:34:00,404 | 00:34:03,916 | what is your professional opinion of Dennis Nilsen? | what is your professional opinion of Dennis Nilsen? |
607 | 00:34:06,447 | 00:34:09,264 | I've seen criminals in all shapes and sizes. | I've seen criminals in all shapes and sizes. |
608 | 00:34:10,486 | 00:34:11,601 | When they're on remand, | When they're on remand, |
609 | 00:34:11,626 | 00:34:14,435 | they ask to be visited by all sorts of people, | they ask to be visited by all sorts of people, |
610 | 00:34:14,730 | 00:34:17,659 | priests, rabbis, imams. | priests, rabbis, imams. |
611 | 00:34:18,057 | 00:34:21,061 | I even had a fella who asked for a shaman. | I even had a fella who asked for a shaman. |
612 | 00:34:21,873 | 00:34:25,884 | Because most of them are just wanting forgiveness. | Because most of them are just wanting forgiveness. |
613 | 00:34:27,797 | 00:34:29,200 | Mr Nilsen's only visitor | Mr Nilsen's only visitor |
614 | 00:34:29,225 | 00:34:31,580 | in the eight months whilst he was on remand | in the eight months whilst he was on remand |
615 | 00:34:31,917 | 00:34:33,533 | was a biographer. | was a biographer. |
616 | 00:34:35,227 | 00:34:38,334 | In my opinion, he's a remorseless coward | In my opinion, he's a remorseless coward |
617 | 00:34:38,359 | 00:34:41,580 | who killed innocent and vulnerable men as they slept. | who killed innocent and vulnerable men as they slept. |
618 | 00:34:43,147 | 00:34:44,690 | Thank you, Detective Chief Inspector. | Thank you, Detective Chief Inspector. |
619 | 00:34:44,715 | 00:34:46,494 | No further questions, my Lord. | No further questions, my Lord. |
620 | 00:34:47,064 | 00:34:48,930 | Detective Chief Inspector, | Detective Chief Inspector, |
621 | 00:34:48,955 | 00:34:53,419 | you say you interviewed Nilsen for 31 hours, yes? | you say you interviewed Nilsen for 31 hours, yes? |
622 | 00:34:53,444 | 00:34:54,444 | That's right. | That's right. |
623 | 00:34:54,469 | 00:34:58,270 | In all that time of him talking almost incessantly, | In all that time of him talking almost incessantly, |
624 | 00:34:58,295 | 00:35:03,014 | did he ever mention planning the murders at all? | did he ever mention planning the murders at all? |
625 | 00:35:04,318 | 00:35:05,547 | No. | No. |
626 | 00:35:05,990 | 00:35:08,007 | No further questions, my Lord. | No further questions, my Lord. |
627 | 00:35:08,272 | 00:35:09,875 | You may step down, Officer. | You may step down, Officer. |
628 | 00:35:10,074 | 00:35:11,260 | Thank you. | Thank you. |
629 | 00:35:12,738 | 00:35:15,223 | We have an old Latin phrase in the law, | We have an old Latin phrase in the law, |
630 | 00:35:15,248 | 00:35:17,091 | "Res ipsa loquitur", | "Res ipsa loquitur", |
631 | 00:35:17,116 | 00:35:19,200 | "The act speaks for itself." | "The act speaks for itself." |
632 | 00:35:19,467 | 00:35:21,842 | What sort of man kills people, | What sort of man kills people, |
633 | 00:35:21,867 | 00:35:24,644 | lives with their bodies rotting under the floorboards, | lives with their bodies rotting under the floorboards, |
634 | 00:35:24,669 | 00:35:28,536 | and flushes pieces of them down the lavatory? | and flushes pieces of them down the lavatory? |
635 | 00:35:28,561 | 00:35:33,013 | Do these seem to you the actions of a man in his right mind? | Do these seem to you the actions of a man in his right mind? |
636 | 00:35:33,277 | 00:35:36,082 | If you think, as we invite you to think, | If you think, as we invite you to think, |
637 | 00:35:36,107 | 00:35:38,227 | and as the evidence surely shows, | and as the evidence surely shows, |
638 | 00:35:38,252 | 00:35:42,204 | that these crimes were not planned or premeditated, | that these crimes were not planned or premeditated, |
639 | 00:35:42,229 | 00:35:45,898 | but were due to Nilsen's seriously abnormal personality | but were due to Nilsen's seriously abnormal personality |
640 | 00:35:45,923 | 00:35:47,198 | and way of thinking, | and way of thinking, |
641 | 00:35:47,223 | 00:35:50,348 | then you will find him not guilty of murder, | then you will find him not guilty of murder, |
642 | 00:35:50,373 | 00:35:54,889 | but guilty of manslaughter by way of diminished responsibility. | but guilty of manslaughter by way of diminished responsibility. |
643 | 00:35:55,030 | 00:35:58,311 | That is the verdict which we invite you to return. | That is the verdict which we invite you to return. |
644 | 00:36:01,165 | 00:36:02,926 | What's taking them so long? | What's taking them so long? |
645 | 00:36:04,280 | 00:36:07,340 | Same again? Wee ones? | Same again? Wee ones? |
646 | 00:36:12,594 | 00:36:14,442 | [DOOR OPENS] | [DOOR OPENS] |
647 | 00:36:30,132 | 00:36:32,013 | Madam Foreman of the jury. | Madam Foreman of the jury. |
648 | 00:36:33,632 | 00:36:36,592 | Have you reached verdicts on which you are all agreed? | Have you reached verdicts on which you are all agreed? |
649 | 00:36:37,272 | 00:36:38,908 | No, we have not. | No, we have not. |
650 | 00:36:38,933 | 00:36:40,571 | [THEY SIGH] | [THEY SIGH] |
651 | 00:36:40,596 | 00:36:44,605 | Might you reach a verdict if the court sits until early evening? | Might you reach a verdict if the court sits until early evening? |
652 | 00:36:44,855 | 00:36:46,977 | I don't believe so, your Honour. | I don't believe so, your Honour. |
653 | 00:36:47,002 | 00:36:49,477 | Very well. You will retire overnight. | Very well. You will retire overnight. |
654 | 00:36:49,502 | 00:36:51,502 | The court will reconvene in the morning | The court will reconvene in the morning |
655 | 00:36:51,527 | 00:36:54,286 | where I will accept a majority verdict. | where I will accept a majority verdict. |
656 | 00:37:01,210 | 00:37:02,731 | TV REPORT: More time's now being spent | TV REPORT: More time's now being spent |
657 | 00:37:02,756 | 00:37:05,352 | on what's possibly wrong with Dennis Nilsen | on what's possibly wrong with Dennis Nilsen |
658 | 00:37:05,377 | 00:37:07,258 | than what he's actually done. | than what he's actually done. |
659 | 00:37:07,418 | 00:37:11,758 | A man who has described himself as the "murderer of the century". | A man who has described himself as the "murderer of the century". |
660 | 00:37:11,783 | 00:37:15,813 | A defence psychiatrist said Nilsen acted as if he were the judge, | A defence psychiatrist said Nilsen acted as if he were the judge, |
661 | 00:37:15,838 | 00:37:18,478 | judging this case of an infamous crime. | judging this case of an infamous crime. |
662 | 00:37:18,503 | 00:37:19,556 | He shows off. | He shows off. |
663 | 00:37:19,581 | 00:37:22,965 | He really believes he is the most important person of the century. | He really believes he is the most important person of the century. |
664 | 00:37:22,990 | 00:37:26,808 | The defence expert found another way of describing Nilsen's mind. | The defence expert found another way of describing Nilsen's mind. |
665 | 00:37:26,833 | 00:37:29,059 | "His personality was like his house. | "His personality was like his house. |
666 | 00:37:29,084 | 00:37:31,460 | "It looked perfectly all right from the outside, | "It looked perfectly all right from the outside, |
667 | 00:37:31,485 | 00:37:34,301 | "but perhaps there was something of a funny smell about it, | "but perhaps there was something of a funny smell about it, |
668 | 00:37:34,326 | 00:37:36,112 | "and when you looked under the floorboards, | "and when you looked under the floorboards, |
669 | 00:37:36,137 | 00:37:38,018 | "you would find horrors." | "you would find horrors." |
670 | 00:37:38,524 | 00:37:40,267 | The jury is returning. | The jury is returning. |
671 | 00:38:08,439 | 00:38:10,636 | Would the foreman of the jury please stand? | Would the foreman of the jury please stand? |
672 | 00:38:13,284 | 00:38:14,684 | Madam Foreman, | Madam Foreman, |
673 | 00:38:14,709 | 00:38:17,340 | do you have a majority on your verdicts? | do you have a majority on your verdicts? |
674 | 00:38:17,832 | 00:38:19,123 | We do. | We do. |
675 | 00:38:19,567 | 00:38:22,625 | On the charge of the murder of Stephen Sinclair, | On the charge of the murder of Stephen Sinclair, |
676 | 00:38:22,650 | 00:38:24,650 | how do you find the defendant? | how do you find the defendant? |
677 | 00:38:25,965 | 00:38:27,284 | Guilty. | Guilty. |
678 | 00:38:28,335 | 00:38:31,559 | On the charge of the murder of Kenneth Ockenden, | On the charge of the murder of Kenneth Ockenden, |
679 | 00:38:31,673 | 00:38:33,448 | how do you find the defendant? | how do you find the defendant? |
680 | 00:38:33,632 | 00:38:34,805 | Guilty. | Guilty. |
681 | 00:38:34,844 | 00:38:37,804 | On the charge of the murder of John Howlett, | On the charge of the murder of John Howlett, |
682 | 00:38:38,202 | 00:38:40,295 | how do you find the defendant? | how do you find the defendant? |
683 | 00:38:40,320 | 00:38:41,331 | Guilty. | Guilty. |
684 | 00:38:41,356 | 00:38:43,974 | On the charge of the murder of Martyn Duffey, | On the charge of the murder of Martyn Duffey, |
685 | 00:38:43,999 | 00:38:45,729 | how do you find the defendant? | how do you find the defendant? |
686 | 00:38:45,754 | 00:38:47,184 | Guilty. | Guilty. |
687 | 00:38:47,209 | 00:38:50,157 | On the charge of the murder of Billy Sutherland, | On the charge of the murder of Billy Sutherland, |
688 | 00:38:50,182 | 00:38:52,103 | how do you find the defendant? | how do you find the defendant? |
689 | 00:38:52,128 | 00:38:53,489 | Guilty. | Guilty. |
690 | 00:38:53,514 | 00:38:55,785 | On the charge of the murder of Malcolm Barlow, | On the charge of the murder of Malcolm Barlow, |
691 | 00:38:55,813 | 00:38:57,355 | how do you find the defendant? | how do you find the defendant? |
692 | 00:38:57,380 | 00:38:58,846 | Guilty. | Guilty. |
693 | 00:38:58,871 | 00:39:02,447 | On the charge of the attempted murder of Douglas Stewart, | On the charge of the attempted murder of Douglas Stewart, |
694 | 00:39:02,472 | 00:39:04,088 | how do you find the defendant? | how do you find the defendant? |
695 | 00:39:04,113 | 00:39:05,423 | Guilty. | Guilty. |
696 | 00:39:05,757 | 00:39:09,036 | On the charge of the attempted murder of Paul Nobbs, | On the charge of the attempted murder of Paul Nobbs, |
697 | 00:39:09,269 | 00:39:11,389 | how do you find the defendant? | how do you find the defendant? |
698 | 00:39:11,550 | 00:39:12,829 | Guilty. | Guilty. |
699 | 00:39:14,686 | 00:39:16,886 | Dennis Andrew Nilsen, | Dennis Andrew Nilsen, |
700 | 00:39:16,911 | 00:39:19,897 | your victims were innocent young men, | your victims were innocent young men, |
701 | 00:39:19,922 | 00:39:23,136 | guilty only of accepting your hospitality, | guilty only of accepting your hospitality, |
702 | 00:39:23,161 | 00:39:28,036 | whereupon you ended their lives cruelly and callously, | whereupon you ended their lives cruelly and callously, |
703 | 00:39:28,061 | 00:39:32,296 | for reasons that will remain known only to you. | for reasons that will remain known only to you. |
704 | 00:39:33,620 | 00:39:37,765 | The sentence for murder is fixed in law. | The sentence for murder is fixed in law. |
705 | 00:39:37,790 | 00:39:39,789 | It is imprisonment for life, | It is imprisonment for life, |
706 | 00:39:39,814 | 00:39:42,613 | and that is the sentence which I pass on you | and that is the sentence which I pass on you |
707 | 00:39:42,638 | 00:39:46,131 | on each count of this indictment. | on each count of this indictment. |
708 | 00:39:47,931 | 00:39:49,491 | Take him down. | Take him down. |
709 | 00:40:14,890 | 00:40:16,771 | [DOOR SLAMS] | [DOOR SLAMS] |
710 | 00:40:16,796 | 00:40:18,676 | [INDISTINCT CONVERSATION] | [INDISTINCT CONVERSATION] |
711 | 00:40:20,301 | 00:40:22,417 | Mr Jay. Well done. | Mr Jay. Well done. |
712 | 00:40:22,442 | 00:40:24,441 | It went down to the wire at the end, didn't it? | It went down to the wire at the end, didn't it? |
713 | 00:40:24,466 | 00:40:26,280 | You must be pleased it's over. | You must be pleased it's over. |
714 | 00:40:28,465 | 00:40:31,546 | If at any time in the future you remember any more names... | If at any time in the future you remember any more names... |
715 | 00:40:33,273 | 00:40:34,713 | please write to me. | please write to me. |
716 | 00:40:35,493 | 00:40:37,353 | I promise you'll be the first to know. | I promise you'll be the first to know. |
717 | 00:40:38,194 | 00:40:39,796 | I think the jury got it right in the end. | I think the jury got it right in the end. |
718 | 00:40:39,821 | 00:40:41,646 | - Yeah. - I don't think I'm mad. | - Yeah. - I don't think I'm mad. |
719 | 00:40:42,652 | 00:40:45,373 | If you hadn't caught me that day... | If you hadn't caught me that day... |
720 | 00:40:47,352 | 00:40:50,239 | it'd be 115, not 15. | it'd be 115, not 15. |
721 | 00:40:51,516 | 00:40:53,356 | I could never have stopped. | I could never have stopped. |
722 | 00:40:56,466 | 00:40:57,785 | Okay. | Okay. |
723 | 00:40:59,239 | 00:41:00,843 | Good luck. | Good luck. |
724 | 00:41:30,957 | 00:41:32,758 | What will you do with it all? | What will you do with it all? |
725 | 00:41:32,783 | 00:41:36,859 | Oh, I don't know. Chuck most of it, probably. | Oh, I don't know. Chuck most of it, probably. |
726 | 00:41:42,001 | 00:41:44,543 | Mr Jay... um... | Mr Jay... um... |
727 | 00:41:44,693 | 00:41:46,814 | do you mind if I ask you a question? | do you mind if I ask you a question? |
728 | 00:41:47,737 | 00:41:48,936 | Go on. | Go on. |
729 | 00:41:49,224 | 00:41:53,825 | When you first met him, did you believe him straight away? | When you first met him, did you believe him straight away? |
730 | 00:41:55,553 | 00:41:57,029 | Yes, I did. | Yes, I did. |
731 | 00:41:58,199 | 00:42:00,069 | What went through your mind at that moment? | What went through your mind at that moment? |
732 | 00:42:00,094 | 00:42:02,253 | Well, I thought, um... | Well, I thought, um... |
733 | 00:42:07,501 | 00:42:09,061 | Honestly? | Honestly? |
734 | 00:42:12,697 | 00:42:15,458 | The first thing I thought was, "I hope that I'm up to this." | The first thing I thought was, "I hope that I'm up to this." |
735 | 00:42:15,483 | 00:42:17,963 | Don't put that in your book. | Don't put that in your book. |
736 | 00:42:19,242 | 00:42:20,922 | You have my word. | You have my word. |
737 | 00:42:24,057 | 00:42:26,724 | - And about my book... - No, look, it's fine. | - And about my book... - No, look, it's fine. |
738 | 00:42:29,747 | 00:42:32,178 | We both had our way of looking at this. | We both had our way of looking at this. |
739 | 00:42:35,772 | 00:42:38,933 | Well, what will they do with this place? | Well, what will they do with this place? |
740 | 00:42:39,449 | 00:42:41,362 | I don't know. | I don't know. |
741 | 00:42:42,488 | 00:42:45,140 | Sell it or rent it out, I'd imagine. | Sell it or rent it out, I'd imagine. |
742 | 00:42:46,085 | 00:42:48,705 | Who'd want to live here? I mean, it's... | Who'd want to live here? I mean, it's... |
743 | 00:42:49,421 | 00:42:52,590 | There's the smell for one thing. | There's the smell for one thing. |
744 | 00:42:54,602 | 00:42:56,340 | D'you know the worst thing? | D'you know the worst thing? |
745 | 00:42:58,839 | 00:43:00,960 | I don't smell it any more. | I don't smell it any more. |
746 | 00:43:06,889 | 00:43:08,690 | I'll see you outside. | I'll see you outside. |
747 | 00:43:21,324 | 00:43:23,826 | So, how have you been? | So, how have you been? |
748 | 00:43:23,883 | 00:43:25,033 | Ah, you know. | Ah, you know. |
749 | 00:43:25,725 | 00:43:28,797 | Adjusting to being a permanent resident, and all. | Adjusting to being a permanent resident, and all. |
750 | 00:43:29,521 | 00:43:31,667 | Apart from that, not too bad. | Apart from that, not too bad. |
751 | 00:43:32,198 | 00:43:34,158 | I read your book. My book. | I read your book. My book. |
752 | 00:43:34,326 | 00:43:35,651 | What did you think? | What did you think? |
753 | 00:43:35,682 | 00:43:39,443 | To be honest, Brian, I found it absolutely terrifying. | To be honest, Brian, I found it absolutely terrifying. |
754 | 00:43:41,008 | 00:43:42,633 | But it's good, yeah. | But it's good, yeah. |
755 | 00:43:42,658 | 00:43:44,380 | Much better than I expected. | Much better than I expected. |
756 | 00:43:44,601 | 00:43:46,568 | Of course, I have some thoughts. | Of course, I have some thoughts. |
757 | 00:43:48,568 | 00:43:50,730 | Please don't be discouraged by my observations. | Please don't be discouraged by my observations. |
758 | 00:43:50,755 | 00:43:53,748 | I've lost none of my respect or admiration for you, | I've lost none of my respect or admiration for you, |
759 | 00:43:53,773 | 00:43:55,105 | or your work. | or your work. |
760 | 00:44:00,908 | 00:44:02,839 | Oh, well, thank you. Um... | Oh, well, thank you. Um... |
761 | 00:44:03,238 | 00:44:05,261 | I'm sure it'll be very helpful. | I'm sure it'll be very helpful. |
762 | 00:44:05,402 | 00:44:08,042 | My biggest concern is you didn't name any of the victims. | My biggest concern is you didn't name any of the victims. |
763 | 00:44:08,244 | 00:44:10,836 | No, I-I wanted to respect their privacy. | No, I-I wanted to respect their privacy. |
764 | 00:44:11,095 | 00:44:13,741 | Well, I think it's disrespectful not naming them. | Well, I think it's disrespectful not naming them. |
765 | 00:44:15,003 | 00:44:16,248 | I robbed them of their life. | I robbed them of their life. |
766 | 00:44:16,273 | 00:44:18,137 | Please don't rob them of their identities. | Please don't rob them of their identities. |
767 | 00:44:20,299 | 00:44:22,150 | And the title, | And the title, |
768 | 00:44:23,159 | 00:44:25,542 | Killing For Company, is a little... | Killing For Company, is a little... |
769 | 00:44:26,132 | 00:44:27,328 | Ah. | Ah. |
770 | 00:44:27,825 | 00:44:29,671 | It should just be Nilsen. | It should just be Nilsen. |
771 | 00:44:30,272 | 00:44:31,831 | No. | No. |
772 | 00:44:31,942 | 00:44:33,123 | Why not? | Why not? |
773 | 00:44:33,917 | 00:44:35,545 | Book is about me, after all. | Book is about me, after all. |
774 | 00:44:35,570 | 00:44:37,612 | I'm not going to call it Nilsen. | I'm not going to call it Nilsen. |
775 | 00:44:37,637 | 00:44:40,310 | This isn't your book. It's not about you. | This isn't your book. It's not about you. |
776 | 00:44:40,813 | 00:44:42,910 | It's about how someone like you came to be. | It's about how someone like you came to be. |
777 | 00:44:42,935 | 00:44:44,856 | I told you when we first met | I told you when we first met |
778 | 00:44:44,881 | 00:44:48,542 | that I wasn't going to use grisly or emotive adjectives, | that I wasn't going to use grisly or emotive adjectives, |
779 | 00:44:48,567 | 00:44:50,559 | and I have stuck to my word. | and I have stuck to my word. |
780 | 00:44:51,532 | 00:44:53,549 | But make no mistake, | But make no mistake, |
781 | 00:44:53,574 | 00:44:55,602 | this isn't a celebration. | this isn't a celebration. |
782 | 00:44:56,555 | 00:44:58,756 | It's a warning. | It's a warning. |
783 | 00:45:03,014 | 00:45:05,837 | You know, there were only 12 victims, not 15. | You know, there were only 12 victims, not 15. |
784 | 00:45:08,775 | 00:45:11,874 | When I sat in the back of the police car the night of my arrest, | When I sat in the back of the police car the night of my arrest, |
785 | 00:45:11,899 | 00:45:13,786 | they asked me how many there were, and I wasn't very sure, | they asked me how many there were, and I wasn't very sure, |
786 | 00:45:13,810 | 00:45:16,263 | so I just gave them a figure, "15 or 16". | so I just gave them a figure, "15 or 16". |
787 | 00:45:18,271 | 00:45:21,256 | And three... three of those victims were invented, | And three... three of those victims were invented, |
788 | 00:45:22,182 | 00:45:25,518 | just to complement the continuity of evidence for the police. | just to complement the continuity of evidence for the police. |
789 | 00:45:25,543 | 00:45:27,263 | Keep them happy. | Keep them happy. |
790 | 00:45:28,707 | 00:45:31,707 | Everybody has had a chance to write their version of my story. | Everybody has had a chance to write their version of my story. |
791 | 00:45:31,732 | 00:45:33,238 | When's it my turn? | When's it my turn? |
792 | 00:45:41,682 | 00:45:44,523 | I'll send you a copy when it's published. | I'll send you a copy when it's published. |
793 | 00:45:45,410 | 00:45:47,208 | Come and see me again. | Come and see me again. |
794 | 00:46:01,533 | 00:46:06,086 | _ | _ |
795 | 00:46:06,370 | 00:46:11,569 | _ | _ |
796 | 00:46:17,227 | 00:46:21,711 | _ | _ |
797 | 00:46:21,922 | 00:46:27,513 | _ | _ |
798 | 00:46:29,853 | 00:46:32,151 | _ | _ |
799 | 00:46:32,218 | 00:46:34,190 | _ | _ |
800 | 00:46:34,384 | 00:46:38,394 | _ | _ |
801 | 00:46:38,596 | 00:46:43,067 | _ | _ |
802 | 00:46:45,293 | 00:46:47,407 | _ | _ |
803 | 00:46:47,560 | 00:46:49,367 | _ | _ |
804 | 00:46:49,465 | 00:46:51,248 | _ | _ |
805 | 00:47:01,736 | 00:47:04,736 | Synced & corrected by QueenMaddie www.addic7ed.com | Synced & corrected by QueenMaddie www.addic7ed.com |