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1 00:00:03,015 00:00:05,312 TV REPORT: Dennis Nilsen is charged with murdering TV REPORT: Dennis Nilsen is charged with murdering
2 00:00:05,337 00:00:09,788 Kenneth Ockenden, Martyn Duffy, William Sutherland, Malcolm Barlow, Kenneth Ockenden, Martyn Duffy, William Sutherland, Malcolm Barlow,
3 00:00:09,813 00:00:12,326 John Howlett and Stephen Sinclair. John Howlett and Stephen Sinclair.
4 00:00:12,351 00:00:15,132 He's also accused of attempting to murder Douglas Stewart He's also accused of attempting to murder Douglas Stewart
5 00:00:15,157 00:00:16,638 and Paul Knobbs. and Paul Knobbs.
6 00:00:18,292 00:00:20,452 As each of the eight charges were read out, As each of the eight charges were read out,
7 00:00:20,493 00:00:23,132 the defendant was asked, "How say you, Nilson? the defendant was asked, "How say you, Nilson?
8 00:00:23,173 00:00:25,093 "Are you guilty or not guilty?" "Are you guilty or not guilty?"
9 00:00:25,132 00:00:29,076 Eight times, in a firm voice, he replied, "Not guilty." Eight times, in a firm voice, he replied, "Not guilty."
10 00:00:30,169 00:00:32,227 But is Nilson guilty of murder, But is Nilson guilty of murder,
11 00:00:32,252 00:00:34,853 or is he guilty only of manslaughter? or is he guilty only of manslaughter?
12 00:00:35,142 00:00:39,982 Synced & corrected by QueenMaddie www.addic7ed.com Synced & corrected by QueenMaddie www.addic7ed.com
13 00:00:48,307 00:00:49,912 I don't understand. I don't understand.
14 00:00:50,264 00:00:51,504 Well, it's quite simple. Well, it's quite simple.
15 00:00:51,529 00:00:55,972 Having spoken to my solicitors, my barrister, um... Having spoken to my solicitors, my barrister, um...
16 00:00:56,302 00:00:59,047 learned people from the psychology profession, learned people from the psychology profession,
17 00:00:59,072 00:01:00,543 I'm not sure if I am guilty. I'm not sure if I am guilty.
18 00:01:00,568 00:01:02,733 But on-on what grounds? But on-on what grounds?
19 00:01:02,773 00:01:04,413 In all the months that we've been talking In all the months that we've been talking
20 00:01:04,453 00:01:06,902 you've not mentioned a plea of insanity once. you've not mentioned a plea of insanity once.
21 00:01:06,927 00:01:09,535 Not insanity, no. Diminished responsibility. Not insanity, no. Diminished responsibility.
22 00:01:09,560 00:01:11,035 But am I mad? I don't know. But am I mad? I don't know.
23 00:01:11,060 00:01:15,173 Madness, as Quixote said, "Madness is seeing life as it is, Madness, as Quixote said, "Madness is seeing life as it is,
24 00:01:15,213 00:01:16,933 "and not as it should be." "and not as it should be."
25 00:01:16,972 00:01:19,840 You murdered those men, Des. You murdered those men, Des.
26 00:01:19,865 00:01:21,777 And you knew what you were doing. And you knew what you were doing.
27 00:01:21,802 00:01:24,482 Did I? I don't deny taking their lives. Did I? I don't deny taking their lives.
28 00:01:24,507 00:01:25,905 You know, I must wear the label of a killer, You know, I must wear the label of a killer,
29 00:01:25,929 00:01:27,014 and maybe I should be hanged for it. and maybe I should be hanged for it.
30 00:01:27,038 00:01:28,740 But I didn't plan them. But I didn't plan them.
31 00:01:29,303 00:01:30,303 Never. Never.
32 00:01:30,328 00:01:32,858 I took them home with much purer intentions. I took them home with much purer intentions.
33 00:01:32,883 00:01:34,723 Then I'd wake up and they'd be sat there, dead. Then I'd wake up and they'd be sat there, dead.
34 00:01:34,748 00:01:37,013 Now, no-one feels the weight of that more than me. Now, no-one feels the weight of that more than me.
35 00:01:37,067 00:01:42,923 But the power of responsibility, at that time, was nil. But the power of responsibility, at that time, was nil.
36 00:01:43,352 00:01:46,733 I-I look in the mirror, and I see me, yeah? I-I look in the mirror, and I see me, yeah?
37 00:01:46,899 00:01:51,327 Just me. It's friendly, helpful, responsible me. Just that. Just me. It's friendly, helpful, responsible me. Just that.
38 00:01:51,352 00:01:53,333 If this was true, then why didn't you go to the police If this was true, then why didn't you go to the police
39 00:01:53,357 00:01:54,882 after the first time it happened? after the first time it happened?
40 00:01:54,907 00:01:57,373 Don't you think I contemplated that, Brian? Eh? Don't you think I contemplated that, Brian? Eh?
41 00:01:57,412 00:02:00,798 Don't you think I wanted to hand myself in, or end it all? Don't you think I wanted to hand myself in, or end it all?
42 00:02:00,823 00:02:02,827 Y'know? But then... Y'know? But then...
43 00:02:02,852 00:02:06,373 survival and shame and the future survival and shame and the future
44 00:02:06,412 00:02:08,972 makes you promise yourself it'll never happen again... makes you promise yourself it'll never happen again...
45 00:02:08,997 00:02:10,610 till it does. till it does.
46 00:02:13,259 00:02:15,501 But yeah, I mean... But yeah, I mean...
47 00:02:16,146 00:02:19,774 had it not been for the dog, I may well have surrendered myself. had it not been for the dog, I may well have surrendered myself.
48 00:02:20,399 00:02:22,012 All I know is I don't know, All I know is I don't know,
49 00:02:22,037 00:02:24,956 and thus, a jury needs to decide. and thus, a jury needs to decide.
50 00:02:25,181 00:02:30,342 The press will be allowed to publish every word spoken in court. The press will be allowed to publish every word spoken in court.
51 00:02:30,367 00:02:34,462 Every single detail exposed. Every single detail exposed.
52 00:02:34,641 00:02:36,333 Is that not what you're doing? Is that not what you're doing?
53 00:02:36,358 00:02:38,684 Well, I'm not exploiting Well, I'm not exploiting
54 00:02:38,709 00:02:41,095 these young men's tragedies to sell newspapers. these young men's tragedies to sell newspapers.
55 00:02:41,120 00:02:43,321 No, you're just exploiting me. No, you're just exploiting me.
56 00:02:45,868 00:02:48,468 I hope you know me better than that. I hope you know me better than that.
57 00:02:49,239 00:02:51,418 I just want to get to the truth. I just want to get to the truth.
58 00:02:52,093 00:02:53,887 Don't you? Don't you?
59 00:03:00,871 00:03:04,325 _ _
60 00:03:06,591 00:03:07,911 [KNOCK AT DOOR] [KNOCK AT DOOR]
61 00:03:09,077 00:03:11,450 Peter, you know Mr Green, QC. Peter, you know Mr Green, QC.
62 00:03:11,475 00:03:12,595 Allan, please. Allan, please.
63 00:03:13,150 00:03:15,111 I hear he's got the Krays' brief? I hear he's got the Krays' brief?
64 00:03:15,136 00:03:16,762 And Ivan Lawrence as QC. And Ivan Lawrence as QC.
65 00:03:16,787 00:03:19,547 It's a formidable defence team, to say the least. It's a formidable defence team, to say the least.
66 00:03:19,676 00:03:21,926 Please, take a seat. Please, take a seat.
67 00:03:23,387 00:03:25,909 I take it their angle's diminished responsibility? I take it their angle's diminished responsibility?
68 00:03:25,934 00:03:29,012 - Didn't wash with Sutcliffe. - The jury won't buy it. - Didn't wash with Sutcliffe. - The jury won't buy it.
69 00:03:29,037 00:03:31,534 Sutcliffe didn't watch TV with the bodies. Sutcliffe didn't watch TV with the bodies.
70 00:03:31,559 00:03:33,213 Nilsen's not insane. Nilsen's not insane.
71 00:03:33,252 00:03:34,870 They don't have to prove that. They don't have to prove that.
72 00:03:34,895 00:03:36,147 All they have to do All they have to do
73 00:03:36,172 00:03:38,493 is show that he was suffering some abnormality of mind is show that he was suffering some abnormality of mind
74 00:03:38,518 00:03:41,089 and therefore not fully responsible for what he was doing. and therefore not fully responsible for what he was doing.
75 00:03:41,114 00:03:43,743 We, on the other hand, have to prove that these crimes We, on the other hand, have to prove that these crimes
76 00:03:43,768 00:03:46,247 were carefully planned and premeditated. were carefully planned and premeditated.
77 00:03:46,272 00:03:48,075 Surely his confessions do that. Surely his confessions do that.
78 00:03:48,800 00:03:51,489 I'm afraid the confessions only take us so far. I'm afraid the confessions only take us so far.
79 00:03:52,716 00:03:53,917 What do you mean? What do you mean?
80 00:03:53,942 00:03:55,708 He gave you a lot of answers which prove what he did, He gave you a lot of answers which prove what he did,
81 00:03:55,732 00:03:58,567 but not what mind he was in when he did it. but not what mind he was in when he did it.
82 00:03:58,592 00:04:00,547 He gave you exactly what he wanted to. He gave you exactly what he wanted to.
83 00:04:00,572 00:04:03,452 You hardly asked him any probing questions You hardly asked him any probing questions
84 00:04:03,493 00:04:05,012 about what was on his mind. about what was on his mind.
85 00:04:05,037 00:04:07,556 Hold on. We didn't want him to suddenly stop talking. Hold on. We didn't want him to suddenly stop talking.
86 00:04:07,581 00:04:09,926 We needed to identify 15 people. We needed to identify 15 people.
87 00:04:09,951 00:04:13,508 I understand that, but the effect was he gave you a lot of details I understand that, but the effect was he gave you a lot of details
88 00:04:13,533 00:04:15,942 that aren't going to help us convict him. that aren't going to help us convict him.
89 00:04:16,732 00:04:19,292 I'm sorry, are you saying he planned this? I'm sorry, are you saying he planned this?
90 00:04:20,075 00:04:23,010 We'll never know. But if all we have are the confessions, We'll never know. But if all we have are the confessions,
91 00:04:23,035 00:04:24,575 then that's not going to be enough. then that's not going to be enough.
92 00:04:24,600 00:04:26,920 We need more. Much more. We need more. Much more.
93 00:04:40,333 00:04:42,473 We should have pushed for motive. We should have pushed for motive.
94 00:04:43,145 00:04:45,213 Don't listen to Green. Don't listen to Green.
95 00:04:45,457 00:04:48,426 Everybody always thinks they're a better copper than a copper. Everybody always thinks they're a better copper than a copper.
96 00:04:48,731 00:04:49,893 If he'd have stopped talking If he'd have stopped talking
97 00:04:49,932 00:04:52,801 there's no way we'd have found the people we did. there's no way we'd have found the people we did.
98 00:04:55,441 00:04:58,228 Listen, they're just looking for someone to blame Listen, they're just looking for someone to blame
99 00:04:58,253 00:05:00,246 if this all goes pear-shaped. if this all goes pear-shaped.
100 00:05:00,732 00:05:03,492 But we're gonna make damned sure that doesn't happen. But we're gonna make damned sure that doesn't happen.
101 00:05:05,267 00:05:06,770 Yeah. Yeah.
102 00:05:08,893 00:05:10,731 See you tomorrow. See you tomorrow.
103 00:05:25,453 00:05:27,133 Thanks for meeting me. Thanks for meeting me.
104 00:05:27,397 00:05:29,457 Please, take a seat. Please, take a seat.
105 00:05:30,989 00:05:33,653 I almost didn't come. I almost didn't come.
106 00:05:34,285 00:05:36,113 But you did. But you did.
107 00:05:36,559 00:05:38,239 Cos you know this is wrong. Cos you know this is wrong.
108 00:05:41,989 00:05:45,231 I take it he's written to you over the past few months? I take it he's written to you over the past few months?
109 00:05:45,256 00:05:46,707 Oh, he has. Oh, he has.
110 00:05:47,637 00:05:49,118 How much? How much?
111 00:05:50,308 00:05:52,698 52 exercise books' worth. 52 exercise books' worth.
112 00:05:52,723 00:05:54,693 We're gonna need to take a look at them. We're gonna need to take a look at them.
113 00:05:54,718 00:05:56,809 That could be useful to prove premeditation. That could be useful to prove premeditation.
114 00:05:56,834 00:05:58,325 - Mr Jay... - All that matters is that - Mr Jay... - All that matters is that
115 00:05:58,350 00:05:59,686 we find as much evidence as we can we find as much evidence as we can
116 00:05:59,710 00:06:01,370 that Nilsen was in his right mind. that Nilsen was in his right mind.
117 00:06:01,395 00:06:02,955 What if he's insane? What if he's insane?
118 00:06:02,996 00:06:04,276 You think he's insane? You think he's insane?
119 00:06:04,301 00:06:06,153 Well, it's not for me to decide. Well, it's not for me to decide.
120 00:06:06,178 00:06:09,356 He's not mad. He knew what he was doing was wrong. He's not mad. He knew what he was doing was wrong.
121 00:06:09,381 00:06:11,284 Well, I don't deny that. Well, I don't deny that.
122 00:06:11,309 00:06:12,852 But at the same time, But at the same time,
123 00:06:12,877 00:06:17,237 he was able to take the head of someone he'd known, he was able to take the head of someone he'd known,
124 00:06:17,262 00:06:20,848 the severed head, into a cooking pot on the stove, the severed head, into a cooking pot on the stove,
125 00:06:21,046 00:06:22,868 and let it simmer overnight. and let it simmer overnight.
126 00:06:23,082 00:06:24,973 And then the next morning, And then the next morning,
127 00:06:24,998 00:06:28,112 he was able to pour himself a cup of coffee he was able to pour himself a cup of coffee
128 00:06:28,137 00:06:31,492 and butter a slice of toast, whilst turning up the heat and butter a slice of toast, whilst turning up the heat
129 00:06:31,517 00:06:33,437 to make sure that the head was boiling properly. to make sure that the head was boiling properly.
130 00:06:33,462 00:06:36,543 Now that is completely mad. Now that is completely mad.
131 00:06:37,535 00:06:38,801 I mean... I mean...
132 00:06:39,868 00:06:42,309 He's really done a number on you, hasn't he? He's really done a number on you, hasn't he?
133 00:06:43,231 00:06:45,598 You mistake me, Mr Jay. You mistake me, Mr Jay.
134 00:06:46,313 00:06:50,228 He's not my friend. I know who he is. He's not my friend. I know who he is.
135 00:06:50,253 00:06:51,333 Do you? Do you?
136 00:06:52,153 00:06:54,428 Right, well, if there's nothing else... Right, well, if there's nothing else...
137 00:06:54,707 00:06:57,004 Listen, if he can convince a jury Listen, if he can convince a jury
138 00:06:57,161 00:06:58,509 that he was out of his mind somehow, that he was out of his mind somehow,
139 00:06:58,533 00:07:00,307 then he only gets manslaughter. then he only gets manslaughter.
140 00:07:00,332 00:07:02,972 He goes to a hospital and then in 15 years he's deemed cured, He goes to a hospital and then in 15 years he's deemed cured,
141 00:07:02,997 00:07:05,012 and he's back out on the streets. and he's back out on the streets.
142 00:07:05,583 00:07:08,489 Is that justice for the victims and their families? Is that justice for the victims and their families?
143 00:07:10,395 00:07:12,174 If that happens... If that happens...
144 00:07:13,551 00:07:15,483 can you live with yourself? can you live with yourself?
145 00:07:16,477 00:07:18,436 Because I know I can't. Because I know I can't.
146 00:07:29,035 00:07:31,835 I'll drop the exercise books off at the station. I'll drop the exercise books off at the station.
147 00:07:40,523 00:07:42,412 But we have a murder weapon. But we have a murder weapon.
148 00:07:42,437 00:07:44,624 A tie attached to a knotted rope. A tie attached to a knotted rope.
149 00:07:45,038 00:07:46,548 Seems pretty pre-emptive to me. Seems pretty pre-emptive to me.
150 00:07:46,573 00:07:48,296 Okay, good. What else? Okay, good. What else?
151 00:07:48,321 00:07:49,757 We've got Duffey's knives. We've got Duffey's knives.
152 00:07:49,782 00:07:51,611 Nilsen let them rust in his back garden Nilsen let them rust in his back garden
153 00:07:51,636 00:07:53,381 so they could never be traced back to Martyn. so they could never be traced back to Martyn.
154 00:07:53,405 00:07:56,733 That shows knowledge of wrongdoing, therefore criminally sane. That shows knowledge of wrongdoing, therefore criminally sane.
155 00:07:56,758 00:07:58,558 That's a stretch. That's a stretch.
156 00:07:59,312 00:08:00,857 What about these books from Masters? What about these books from Masters?
157 00:08:00,882 00:08:02,682 Surely there's got to be something in here. Surely there's got to be something in here.
158 00:08:02,707 00:08:04,333 The tragedy of the monochrome man? The tragedy of the monochrome man?
159 00:08:04,372 00:08:06,333 I mean, most of it's rambling nonsense. I mean, most of it's rambling nonsense.
160 00:08:06,358 00:08:08,319 They help the defence if anything. They help the defence if anything.
161 00:08:09,105 00:08:10,596 What about Douglas Stewart? What about Douglas Stewart?
162 00:08:10,621 00:08:13,093 The press'll have a field day with what happened to Stewart. The press'll have a field day with what happened to Stewart.
163 00:08:13,809 00:08:16,000 Police embarrassment is hardly relevant now. Police embarrassment is hardly relevant now.
164 00:08:16,025 00:08:18,242 We have to use him. What else? We have to use him. What else?
165 00:08:18,765 00:08:20,617 What about the Soho Project? What about the Soho Project?
166 00:08:20,953 00:08:22,453 What about it? What about it?
167 00:08:22,492 00:08:23,653 A woman called. A woman called.
168 00:08:23,693 00:08:27,609 Thinks someone in her therapy group could be a possible victim... Thinks someone in her therapy group could be a possible victim...
169 00:08:27,634 00:08:30,430 but I thought we weren't looking for them any more. but I thought we weren't looking for them any more.
170 00:08:32,052 00:08:34,720 Okay, Steve and I will follow that up. Okay, Steve and I will follow that up.
171 00:08:35,253 00:08:37,052 Is that our lot? Is that our lot?
172 00:08:37,213 00:08:41,338 Paul Knobbs, in his statement, says... Paul Knobbs, in his statement, says...
173 00:08:41,363 00:08:45,043 [VOICES FADE] [VOICES FADE]
174 00:08:51,126 00:08:52,486 Sorry to have called. Sorry to have called.
175 00:08:52,511 00:08:55,212 It's just he's been having this recurring dream, It's just he's been having this recurring dream,
176 00:08:55,714 00:08:57,933 but actually, I think he's been attacked. but actually, I think he's been attacked.
177 00:08:57,958 00:08:59,237 Okay. Okay.
178 00:08:59,354 00:09:01,692 I hope I'm not wasting your time. I hope I'm not wasting your time.
179 00:09:01,733 00:09:04,019 Is it all right if we have a word with him? Is it all right if we have a word with him?
180 00:09:04,846 00:09:07,228 Go easy on him, okay? Go easy on him, okay?
181 00:09:07,948 00:09:10,600 Of course. What's his name? Of course. What's his name?
182 00:09:10,625 00:09:12,105 Carl. Carl.
183 00:09:12,919 00:09:14,526 All right. All right.
184 00:09:17,472 00:09:19,245 I'm in a dark room. I'm in a dark room.
185 00:09:19,425 00:09:21,971 I don't know where, and... I don't know where, and...
186 00:09:22,135 00:09:25,190 there's music but it's calm. there's music but it's calm.
187 00:09:25,812 00:09:29,973 And then... this man appears. And then... this man appears.
188 00:09:30,284 00:09:33,572 And I can't see his face, And I can't see his face,
189 00:09:33,776 00:09:35,885 but he's very close to me. but he's very close to me.
190 00:09:37,253 00:09:40,253 Um... But I'm not afraid, because... Um... But I'm not afraid, because...
191 00:09:40,918 00:09:42,488 I'm warm. I'm warm.
192 00:09:43,089 00:09:46,888 I'm wrapped up in some kind of sleeping bag. I'm wrapped up in some kind of sleeping bag.
193 00:09:48,647 00:09:53,816 And then, all of a sudden, I feel something around my neck... And then, all of a sudden, I feel something around my neck...
194 00:09:54,816 00:09:58,300 digging into my throat, and-and choking me. digging into my throat, and-and choking me.
195 00:09:58,325 00:10:01,973 And I can hear him saying, "Just stay still". And I can hear him saying, "Just stay still".
196 00:10:02,466 00:10:04,812 And then everything goes dark. And then everything goes dark.
197 00:10:05,247 00:10:08,263 But then, after a while, I feel... But then, after a while, I feel...
198 00:10:09,435 00:10:10,748 something on my face, something on my face,
199 00:10:10,779 00:10:15,652 like... sort of like a dog licking me or something. like... sort of like a dog licking me or something.
200 00:10:15,677 00:10:17,613 Can you remember what breed? Can you remember what breed?
201 00:10:18,692 00:10:21,692 Um... No. Um... No.
202 00:10:26,169 00:10:27,930 Carl? Carl?
203 00:10:29,625 00:10:31,505 Have you seen this man? Have you seen this man?
204 00:10:33,982 00:10:38,052 - Yeah, yeah, on the news. - His name is Dennis Nilsen. - Yeah, yeah, on the news. - His name is Dennis Nilsen.
205 00:10:38,355 00:10:41,982 He killed 15 young men and attempted to kill seven others. He killed 15 young men and attempted to kill seven others.
206 00:10:43,021 00:10:45,292 All of these men were strangled. All of these men were strangled.
207 00:10:45,332 00:10:48,013 Mostly with a tie or a headphone cord. Mostly with a tie or a headphone cord.
208 00:10:48,919 00:10:51,503 But one, he tried to kill with a sleeping bag. But one, he tried to kill with a sleeping bag.
209 00:10:53,172 00:10:54,452 No... No...
210 00:10:58,325 00:11:01,092 Cos the man in my dream keeps telling me Cos the man in my dream keeps telling me
211 00:11:01,117 00:11:03,646 not to get caught up in the zip. not to get caught up in the zip.
212 00:11:09,613 00:11:12,654 He also said he attempted to drown him He also said he attempted to drown him
213 00:11:13,125 00:11:15,466 before resuscitating him. before resuscitating him.
214 00:11:20,185 00:11:22,435 I've never told anyone about the water. I've never told anyone about the water.
215 00:11:23,582 00:11:25,381 Do you remember the water? Do you remember the water?
216 00:11:25,527 00:11:27,904 Yeah. Um... Yeah. Um...
217 00:11:29,074 00:11:30,510 It was cold water, It was cold water,
218 00:11:30,543 00:11:34,135 and I was being held down. and I was being held down.
219 00:11:34,160 00:11:37,214 Where? In a bath or a sink? Where? In a bath or a sink?
220 00:11:37,239 00:11:39,759 I don't understand. Are you... I don't understand. Are you...
221 00:11:41,446 00:11:43,636 Are you telling me that this actually happened? Are you telling me that this actually happened?
222 00:11:43,661 00:11:44,863 Yes. Yes.
223 00:11:46,206 00:11:48,853 I think you're one of Nilsen's attempted victims. I think you're one of Nilsen's attempted victims.
224 00:11:49,542 00:11:51,068 Because everything that you are telling us Because everything that you are telling us
225 00:11:51,092 00:11:53,212 aligns to what he told us. aligns to what he told us.
226 00:11:53,237 00:11:55,261 Can you remember where you met him or, Can you remember where you met him or,
227 00:11:55,286 00:11:57,033 anything about where he lived? anything about where he lived?
228 00:11:57,058 00:11:58,261 Well, no... Well, no...
229 00:11:58,286 00:12:00,065 You said he warned you about the sleeping bag. You said he warned you about the sleeping bag.
230 00:12:00,089 00:12:02,931 - What did he say exactly? - I don't know. - What did he say exactly? - I don't know.
231 00:12:02,956 00:12:04,029 When he warned you about the zip, When he warned you about the zip,
232 00:12:04,053 00:12:06,064 it shows he was planning it way before he did it it shows he was planning it way before he did it
233 00:12:06,089 00:12:08,096 so I need you to be clear. Come on. so I need you to be clear. Come on.
234 00:12:08,121 00:12:10,307 - Just try to remember. - I don't wanna do this any more. - Just try to remember. - I don't wanna do this any more.
235 00:12:10,331 00:12:12,463 Look, you have to. I know this is tough, Look, you have to. I know this is tough,
236 00:12:12,488 00:12:13,854 - but we need all the details. - Detective. - but we need all the details. - Detective.
237 00:12:13,878 00:12:15,285 - Just think. - Detective, - Just think. - Detective,
238 00:12:15,310 00:12:16,362 he's told you he's had enough. he's told you he's had enough.
239 00:12:16,386 00:12:17,456 I'm aware of that, but I'm aware of that, but
240 00:12:17,481 00:12:19,597 - we are, I'm-I'm just trying... - Peter. - we are, I'm-I'm just trying... - Peter.
241 00:12:24,730 00:12:25,955 We can't use him. We can't use him.
242 00:12:25,980 00:12:27,884 He won't survive cross-examination. He won't survive cross-examination.
243 00:12:27,909 00:12:30,733 You saw him in there. They'll destroy him. You saw him in there. They'll destroy him.
244 00:12:32,464 00:12:33,908 I'll come back in a couple of days, I'll come back in a couple of days,
245 00:12:33,933 00:12:35,533 see if I can get a statement from him see if I can get a statement from him
246 00:12:35,572 00:12:37,134 and we can read that out in court, and we can read that out in court,
247 00:12:37,159 00:12:38,733 if we need to. if we need to.
248 00:12:39,282 00:12:41,495 Peter... we have enough. Peter... we have enough.
249 00:12:41,520 00:12:43,933 And he led us to the bodies, for fuck's sake. And he led us to the bodies, for fuck's sake.
250 00:12:52,561 00:12:55,464 For the first day of this, the trial of Dennis Nilsen, For the first day of this, the trial of Dennis Nilsen,
251 00:12:55,496 00:12:58,503 the unassuming civil servant who's charged with crimes the unassuming civil servant who's charged with crimes
252 00:12:58,528 00:13:01,222 that have shocked and sickened the nation. that have shocked and sickened the nation.
253 00:13:01,405 00:13:05,228 Nilsen is charged with six murders and two attempted murders. Nilsen is charged with six murders and two attempted murders.
254 00:13:05,542 00:13:09,013 Details of a recently identified seventh victim, Graham Allen, Details of a recently identified seventh victim, Graham Allen,
255 00:13:09,038 00:13:11,073 a heroin addict and petty criminal, a heroin addict and petty criminal,
256 00:13:11,098 00:13:13,776 will not be featured on the indictment. will not be featured on the indictment.
257 00:13:14,332 00:13:16,939 - [CROWD SHOUTING] - Masters! - [CROWD SHOUTING] - Masters!
258 00:13:16,964 00:13:19,519 What's it like being friends with a serial killer? What's it like being friends with a serial killer?
259 00:13:20,386 00:13:23,275 What's it like rubbing shoulders with a murderer, Masters? What's it like rubbing shoulders with a murderer, Masters?
260 00:13:23,300 00:13:26,065 [SHOUTING OVER EACH OTHER] [SHOUTING OVER EACH OTHER]
261 00:13:26,090 00:13:28,995 What's it like being friends with a serial killer? What's it like being friends with a serial killer?
262 00:13:49,324 00:13:50,620 Steve. Steve.
263 00:13:51,409 00:13:52,847 You all right? You all right?
264 00:13:52,872 00:13:53,872 Good. Good.
265 00:13:54,663 00:13:57,303 - Sleep okay? - No. I never do. - Sleep okay? - No. I never do.
266 00:14:09,241 00:14:11,405 Oh, here he is. Brian Masters, Oh, here he is. Brian Masters,
267 00:14:11,430 00:14:13,790 biographer to the murderer of the century. biographer to the murderer of the century.
268 00:14:13,815 00:14:15,536 Did you see the press outside? Did you see the press outside?
269 00:14:15,561 00:14:17,663 Jesus, they'll have headlines for weeks. Jesus, they'll have headlines for weeks.
270 00:14:17,688 00:14:19,741 Revelling in the case, like carrion. Revelling in the case, like carrion.
271 00:14:19,766 00:14:21,999 One of the papers today had the headline One of the papers today had the headline
272 00:14:22,024 00:14:24,311 "House Of Horrors - The Trial." "House Of Horrors - The Trial."
273 00:14:24,336 00:14:25,710 The only "house of horrors" I've ever seen The only "house of horrors" I've ever seen
274 00:14:25,734 00:14:27,134 is Number Ten Downing Street. is Number Ten Downing Street.
275 00:14:27,867 00:14:30,358 - They mention you an' all. - Yes, I saw. - They mention you an' all. - Yes, I saw.
276 00:14:30,383 00:14:34,184 Yeah? How do you feel, being talked about in a national newspaper? Yeah? How do you feel, being talked about in a national newspaper?
277 00:14:34,976 00:14:36,859 You wanted to see me? You wanted to see me?
278 00:14:37,412 00:14:39,853 Aye. They've brought me my suit, but no tie. Aye. They've brought me my suit, but no tie.
279 00:14:40,187 00:14:42,249 I was wondering if I could borrow yours. I was wondering if I could borrow yours.
280 00:14:44,692 00:14:45,929 Right. Right.
281 00:14:45,954 00:14:48,507 I know it's an ask, but an open-necked shirt I know it's an ask, but an open-necked shirt
282 00:14:48,532 00:14:51,124 isn't the kind of impression I want to give out isn't the kind of impression I want to give out
283 00:14:51,149 00:14:52,921 on the first day of the trial. on the first day of the trial.
284 00:14:56,363 00:14:58,387 Right. I'll leave it with the guard. Right. I'll leave it with the guard.
285 00:14:58,412 00:15:00,292 My saviour. My saviour.
286 00:15:00,482 00:15:02,212 I started out with 15 ties, I started out with 15 ties,
287 00:15:02,237 00:15:04,333 but now the police have them all in evidence. but now the police have them all in evidence.
288 00:15:07,491 00:15:09,841 You, the members of the jury, will be asked You, the members of the jury, will be asked
289 00:15:09,866 00:15:13,552 to ascertain this man's state of mind at the time of the killings to ascertain this man's state of mind at the time of the killings
290 00:15:13,577 00:15:15,988 and to decide, as a result, and to decide, as a result,
291 00:15:16,013 00:15:20,419 if he is guilty of the murder of six innocent young men, if he is guilty of the murder of six innocent young men,
292 00:15:20,444 00:15:23,412 or merely of their manslaughter. or merely of their manslaughter.
293 00:15:23,566 00:15:27,879 That Mr Nilsen killed these men is not contested by the defence. That Mr Nilsen killed these men is not contested by the defence.
294 00:15:27,904 00:15:29,466 They will argue, however, They will argue, however,
295 00:15:29,491 00:15:33,787 that he was out of his mind when he committed his crimes, that he was out of his mind when he committed his crimes,
296 00:15:33,812 00:15:36,724 and that he cannot be held truly accountable. and that he cannot be held truly accountable.
297 00:15:36,749 00:15:39,526 But I intend to prove that Mr Nilsen not only But I intend to prove that Mr Nilsen not only
298 00:15:39,551 00:15:41,206 knew what he was doing, knew what he was doing,
299 00:15:41,237 00:15:45,757 but that these crimes were premeditated and carefully planned. but that these crimes were premeditated and carefully planned.
300 00:15:46,166 00:15:50,009 He lured 15 innocent young men He lured 15 innocent young men
301 00:15:50,034 00:15:51,722 back to his home, back to his home,
302 00:15:51,747 00:15:54,667 before cruelly murdering them. before cruelly murdering them.
303 00:15:55,193 00:15:57,674 Mr Nilsen is no madman. Mr Nilsen is no madman.
304 00:15:57,699 00:16:00,339 He is intelligent and rational, He is intelligent and rational,
305 00:16:00,371 00:16:03,450 possessing the skills to conceal his crimes, possessing the skills to conceal his crimes,
306 00:16:03,748 00:16:06,222 and manipulate those around him. and manipulate those around him.
307 00:16:06,441 00:16:12,082 He is, in short, an experienced and calculating killer. He is, in short, an experienced and calculating killer.
308 00:16:13,206 00:16:17,019 I have spent a total of 14 hours with Dennis Nilsen, I have spent a total of 14 hours with Dennis Nilsen,
309 00:16:17,044 00:16:20,204 on 16 separate occasions since his arrest. on 16 separate occasions since his arrest.
310 00:16:20,229 00:16:22,635 You are a forensic psychiatrist, Dr Hardy? You are a forensic psychiatrist, Dr Hardy?
311 00:16:22,660 00:16:23,836 - Correct. - Could you share - Correct. - Could you share
312 00:16:23,861 00:16:25,758 with the court the clinical evaluation with the court the clinical evaluation
313 00:16:25,783 00:16:28,196 you made of the defendant during these many meetings? you made of the defendant during these many meetings?
314 00:16:28,221 00:16:31,900 Did you find, for example, any evidence of mental abnormality? Did you find, for example, any evidence of mental abnormality?
315 00:16:31,925 00:16:34,017 Quite the reverse. I formed the impression very quickly Quite the reverse. I formed the impression very quickly
316 00:16:34,041 00:16:35,664 that he was a highly intelligent man. that he was a highly intelligent man.
317 00:16:35,689 00:16:39,672 In my view, Nilsen possesses an extremely rational mind. In my view, Nilsen possesses an extremely rational mind.
318 00:16:39,697 00:16:42,211 He is capable of feeling very deeply He is capable of feeling very deeply
319 00:16:42,236 00:16:46,108 and concealing these feelings in order to preserve appearances. and concealing these feelings in order to preserve appearances.
320 00:16:46,258 00:16:49,013 Thank you. No further questions, my Lord. Thank you. No further questions, my Lord.
321 00:16:51,394 00:16:55,362 Dennis Nilsen killed perhaps 15 young men, Dennis Nilsen killed perhaps 15 young men,
322 00:16:55,387 00:16:57,278 for no apparent reason. for no apparent reason.
323 00:16:57,303 00:17:00,098 He kept their bodies, bathed and dressed them, He kept their bodies, bathed and dressed them,
324 00:17:00,123 00:17:02,004 watched television programmes with them, watched television programmes with them,
325 00:17:02,029 00:17:05,110 conversed with them about those programmes. conversed with them about those programmes.
326 00:17:05,135 00:17:09,254 You say you find no evidence of mental disturbance. You say you find no evidence of mental disturbance.
327 00:17:09,707 00:17:13,481 Of course strangling people is not normal behaviour. Of course strangling people is not normal behaviour.
328 00:17:13,506 00:17:16,489 While Nilsen was on remand, While Nilsen was on remand,
329 00:17:16,514 00:17:20,973 he made a series of protests and complaints he made a series of protests and complaints
330 00:17:20,998 00:17:24,867 about his treatment in Her Majesty's Prison Herne Hill. about his treatment in Her Majesty's Prison Herne Hill.
331 00:17:24,892 00:17:26,871 Would you not agree that this shows Would you not agree that this shows
332 00:17:26,896 00:17:29,551 markedly paranoid tendencies? markedly paranoid tendencies?
333 00:17:29,751 00:17:32,145 Perhaps. In some cases. Perhaps. In some cases.
334 00:17:32,170 00:17:35,748 And in this case, in fact, his behaviour became so extreme, And in this case, in fact, his behaviour became so extreme,
335 00:17:35,773 00:17:41,524 so erratic, that he was recently put down as a suicide risk. so erratic, that he was recently put down as a suicide risk.
336 00:17:41,900 00:17:43,499 Could you tell us, Dr Hardy, Could you tell us, Dr Hardy,
337 00:17:43,524 00:17:46,422 who the psychiatrist was who recommended this step? who the psychiatrist was who recommended this step?
338 00:17:48,324 00:17:49,428 I did. I did.
339 00:17:49,453 00:17:51,475 So, would you not agree So, would you not agree
340 00:17:51,500 00:17:54,313 that someone at risk of suicide is, by definition, that someone at risk of suicide is, by definition,
341 00:17:54,338 00:17:56,852 suffering a mental disorder? suffering a mental disorder?
342 00:17:57,863 00:18:02,266 I suppose, in strict terms, that is true. I suppose, in strict terms, that is true.
343 00:18:02,291 00:18:04,730 Thank you. No further questions, my Lord. Thank you. No further questions, my Lord.
344 00:18:26,483 00:18:27,884 Miss Mead? Miss Mead?
345 00:18:29,103 00:18:31,343 They're using what happened to Graham, They're using what happened to Graham,
346 00:18:31,647 00:18:33,625 making it all public, making it all public,
347 00:18:33,794 00:18:35,828 but he doesn't get justice? but he doesn't get justice?
348 00:18:36,852 00:18:38,391 I know. I know.
349 00:18:38,919 00:18:42,439 Look, there are certain details about his case that can... Look, there are certain details about his case that can...
350 00:18:42,464 00:18:43,852 You didn't give a shit about him You didn't give a shit about him
351 00:18:43,877 00:18:46,000 when you thought he was just a junkie who OD'd when you thought he was just a junkie who OD'd
352 00:18:46,025 00:18:48,144 in a squat or a bedsit somewhere. in a squat or a bedsit somewhere.
353 00:18:48,169 00:18:51,969 But now, you're gonna bring up every little detail. But now, you're gonna bring up every little detail.
354 00:18:54,896 00:18:56,416 I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
355 00:18:59,080 00:19:00,801 No, you're not. No, you're not.
356 00:19:01,962 00:19:05,203 Do you have any fucking idea what you've put me through? Do you have any fucking idea what you've put me through?
357 00:19:06,584 00:19:09,039 And he won't even get justice? And he won't even get justice?
358 00:19:11,883 00:19:14,141 All you lot care about All you lot care about
359 00:19:14,490 00:19:17,930 is you're the people that caught Dennis Nilsen. is you're the people that caught Dennis Nilsen.
360 00:19:21,423 00:19:24,236 Peter. We're back in. Peter. We're back in.
361 00:19:37,080 00:19:38,502 So, Mr Stewart, So, Mr Stewart,
362 00:19:38,527 00:19:40,527 after meeting him in the Golden Lion, after meeting him in the Golden Lion,
363 00:19:40,552 00:19:43,525 Mr Nilsen suggested that you both go back to his residence Mr Nilsen suggested that you both go back to his residence
364 00:19:43,550 00:19:45,924 - to continue drinking? - That's right. - to continue drinking? - That's right.
365 00:19:45,949 00:19:49,642 195 Melrose Avenue. I remember it very clearly. 195 Melrose Avenue. I remember it very clearly.
366 00:19:49,667 00:19:52,767 - And what happened next? - We had a couple more pints. - And what happened next? - We had a couple more pints.
367 00:19:52,792 00:19:56,032 He offered me vodka but I said, "It's not my drink". He offered me vodka but I said, "It's not my drink".
368 00:19:56,736 00:19:59,924 Then he asked me to go to bed with him. Then he asked me to go to bed with him.
369 00:19:59,949 00:20:02,017 I said that wasn't my thing either. I said that wasn't my thing either.
370 00:20:02,042 00:20:04,580 So I fell asleep on the sofa. So I fell asleep on the sofa.
371 00:20:04,675 00:20:08,174 I woke up, must have been a few hours later, I woke up, must have been a few hours later,
372 00:20:08,199 00:20:11,878 and my ankles were tied together with a tie. and my ankles were tied together with a tie.
373 00:20:12,201 00:20:15,447 Nilsen was kneeling on my chest, trying to strangle me. Nilsen was kneeling on my chest, trying to strangle me.
374 00:20:15,472 00:20:16,791 But I fought him off. But I fought him off.
375 00:20:16,816 00:20:18,572 I wasn't going down without a fight. I wasn't going down without a fight.
376 00:20:18,597 00:20:20,314 How did he respond to that? How did he respond to that?
377 00:20:20,806 00:20:23,807 He started shouting, "Take my money, take my money!" He started shouting, "Take my money, take my money!"
378 00:20:23,832 00:20:25,479 Really loud, like. Really loud, like.
379 00:20:31,587 00:20:34,369 But you weren't stealing from him? But you weren't stealing from him?
380 00:20:34,394 00:20:37,338 Seemed like he was trying to make the neighbours think Seemed like he was trying to make the neighbours think
381 00:20:37,363 00:20:39,080 he was being attacked himself. he was being attacked himself.
382 00:20:39,105 00:20:41,787 He was trying to create an alibi. He was trying to create an alibi.
383 00:20:41,812 00:20:44,658 Hardly the act of a man out of his mind. Hardly the act of a man out of his mind.
384 00:20:44,978 00:20:47,549 Thank you, Mr Stewart. No further questions, my Lord. Thank you, Mr Stewart. No further questions, my Lord.
385 00:20:48,026 00:20:51,197 In your police statement, Mr Stewart, In your police statement, Mr Stewart,
386 00:20:51,222 00:20:55,174 you said you stayed for another drink with Nilsen. you said you stayed for another drink with Nilsen.
387 00:20:55,567 00:20:59,168 Another drink, after he allegedly tried to kill you? Another drink, after he allegedly tried to kill you?
388 00:20:59,536 00:21:02,468 Well, I thought that was the best way to calm him down. Well, I thought that was the best way to calm him down.
389 00:21:02,493 00:21:03,612 I see. I see.
390 00:21:03,652 00:21:04,736 You mentioned earlier You mentioned earlier
391 00:21:04,761 00:21:08,801 that you remembered seeing the address as 195 Melrose Avenue. that you remembered seeing the address as 195 Melrose Avenue.
392 00:21:08,901 00:21:11,205 How did you remember the address so clearly? How did you remember the address so clearly?
393 00:21:11,386 00:21:13,386 I saw the number on the door. I saw the number on the door.
394 00:21:13,613 00:21:16,971 You also told us that when you met him in the pub You also told us that when you met him in the pub
395 00:21:16,996 00:21:20,047 the defendant introduced himself to you as Dennis. the defendant introduced himself to you as Dennis.
396 00:21:20,072 00:21:22,018 - Yeah. - And that when you got to his house - Yeah. - And that when you got to his house
397 00:21:22,043 00:21:25,494 to continue your drinking session together, he offered you vodka. to continue your drinking session together, he offered you vodka.
398 00:21:25,827 00:21:27,107 That's right. That's right.
399 00:21:27,132 00:21:30,424 Unfortunately, none of these things are true, are they? Unfortunately, none of these things are true, are they?
400 00:21:30,449 00:21:32,729 The defendant's first name may be Dennis The defendant's first name may be Dennis
401 00:21:32,754 00:21:35,554 but he always calls himself Des. but he always calls himself Des.
402 00:21:35,579 00:21:38,861 He always drinks rum, not vodka, He always drinks rum, not vodka,
403 00:21:38,886 00:21:42,213 and there is no number plate on the house at Melrose Avenue. and there is no number plate on the house at Melrose Avenue.
404 00:21:42,398 00:21:43,957 There never has been. There never has been.
405 00:21:43,982 00:21:46,346 I dunno, I thought there was. I dunno, I thought there was.
406 00:21:46,371 00:21:49,650 Mm, but you seemed so sure of the details before. Mm, but you seemed so sure of the details before.
407 00:21:49,675 00:21:51,036 And why might that be? And why might that be?
408 00:21:51,061 00:21:55,460 Why might someone go to the trouble of furnishing their testimony Why might someone go to the trouble of furnishing their testimony
409 00:21:55,485 00:21:58,604 with a great deal of specific detail with a great deal of specific detail
410 00:21:58,629 00:22:01,405 that seems to be pulled from thin air? that seems to be pulled from thin air?
411 00:22:01,430 00:22:04,295 I put it to you, Mr Stewart, that your testimony to this court I put it to you, Mr Stewart, that your testimony to this court
412 00:22:04,320 00:22:06,281 is nothing more than a pack of lies, is nothing more than a pack of lies,
413 00:22:06,306 00:22:09,678 dreamt up to satisfy a tabloid newspaper. dreamt up to satisfy a tabloid newspaper.
414 00:22:11,029 00:22:13,590 Well, Mr Stewart? Well, Mr Stewart?
415 00:22:14,232 00:22:16,631 Have you sold your story? Have you sold your story?
416 00:22:17,404 00:22:21,228 Er... Y... Yes. Er... Y... Yes.
417 00:22:21,829 00:22:24,533 No further questions, my Lord. No further questions, my Lord.
418 00:22:27,006 00:22:28,327 How dare he! How dare he!
419 00:22:28,352 00:22:30,415 Standing up there in that ridiculous suit, Standing up there in that ridiculous suit,
420 00:22:30,440 00:22:32,040 spouting those lies. spouting those lies.
421 00:22:32,065 00:22:34,704 So you're saying that Douglas Stewart is lying? So you're saying that Douglas Stewart is lying?
422 00:22:34,729 00:22:36,848 That you didn't try and kill him? That you didn't try and kill him?
423 00:22:36,873 00:22:39,438 Yes, I did. But not as he described it. Yes, I did. But not as he described it.
424 00:22:39,463 00:22:41,977 This is about absolute truth, Brian. This is about absolute truth, Brian.
425 00:22:42,313 00:22:44,845 It has to be, otherwise we don't get any answers. It has to be, otherwise we don't get any answers.
426 00:22:45,464 00:22:47,523 You cannot possibly believe You cannot possibly believe
427 00:22:47,548 00:22:50,140 that what you put him through out there was justified. that what you put him through out there was justified.
428 00:22:50,165 00:22:52,413 What are you getting so agitated about? What are you getting so agitated about?
429 00:22:52,438 00:22:55,360 I'm giving you a wonderful final act for your book. I'm giving you a wonderful final act for your book.
430 00:22:55,923 00:22:57,938 Like you said about the book, Brian, Like you said about the book, Brian,
431 00:22:57,963 00:23:00,374 it's not up to us to make subjective decisions. it's not up to us to make subjective decisions.
432 00:23:00,399 00:23:02,345 We have to remain objective in all of this. We have to remain objective in all of this.
433 00:23:02,370 00:23:05,087 Thus, it is up to the jury to decide Thus, it is up to the jury to decide
434 00:23:05,112 00:23:06,759 whether I'm just bad... whether I'm just bad...
435 00:23:06,784 00:23:08,751 or outrageously bad. or outrageously bad.
436 00:23:17,554 00:23:19,675 - See you back in chambers. - Thank you. - See you back in chambers. - Thank you.
437 00:23:19,769 00:23:21,424 Did you know he'd sold his story to the press? Did you know he'd sold his story to the press?
438 00:23:21,448 00:23:22,462 Course I didn't! Course I didn't!
439 00:23:22,487 00:23:25,247 We're lucky the judge didn't strike his testimony from the record. We're lucky the judge didn't strike his testimony from the record.
440 00:23:25,615 00:23:27,790 It can't have harmed us that much, right? It can't have harmed us that much, right?
441 00:23:28,141 00:23:30,516 Stewart's credibility is gone, his testimony is now useless. Stewart's credibility is gone, his testimony is now useless.
442 00:23:30,541 00:23:31,741 We're in a lot of trouble. We're in a lot of trouble.
443 00:23:31,766 00:23:32,923 Surely we still have enough? Surely we still have enough?
444 00:23:32,948 00:23:35,589 I mean, we have the tie with the knotted rope, and Duffey's knives. I mean, we have the tie with the knotted rope, and Duffey's knives.
445 00:23:35,614 00:23:37,438 All those show premeditation to murder. All those show premeditation to murder.
446 00:23:37,463 00:23:39,158 Peter, physical evidence is all very good and well, Peter, physical evidence is all very good and well,
447 00:23:39,182 00:23:40,438 but it's also circumstantial. but it's also circumstantial.
448 00:23:40,463 00:23:41,993 We had an eye witness, a survivor, We had an eye witness, a survivor,
449 00:23:42,018 00:23:44,602 and without that, we're significantly weaker. and without that, we're significantly weaker.
450 00:23:45,297 00:23:46,626 Sorry. Sorry.
451 00:24:01,833 00:24:03,391 Hello, Carl. Hello, Carl.
452 00:24:03,777 00:24:05,138 Can I come in? Can I come in?
453 00:24:15,386 00:24:17,106 How have you been? How have you been?
454 00:24:18,436 00:24:20,436 Things keep coming back to me. Things keep coming back to me.
455 00:24:22,231 00:24:24,030 What kind of things? What kind of things?
456 00:24:27,540 00:24:29,540 He said he liked my shoes. He said he liked my shoes.
457 00:24:34,396 00:24:35,676 Thank you. Thank you.
458 00:24:39,590 00:24:43,791 The doctor said it was all nightmares, caused... The doctor said it was all nightmares, caused...
459 00:24:45,790 00:24:49,830 I'd had a bit of a hard time with an ex of mine. I'd had a bit of a hard time with an ex of mine.
460 00:24:51,477 00:24:54,398 They even put me on tablets to block everything out. They even put me on tablets to block everything out.
461 00:25:01,388 00:25:03,708 Listen, Carl, um... Listen, Carl, um...
462 00:25:06,055 00:25:08,255 The trial isn't going how we'd hoped. The trial isn't going how we'd hoped.
463 00:25:08,536 00:25:11,005 We think your testimony could be crucial. We think your testimony could be crucial.
464 00:25:11,030 00:25:12,942 But I've already given my statement. But I've already given my statement.
465 00:25:13,407 00:25:15,067 The man said that would be enough. The man said that would be enough.
466 00:25:15,092 00:25:18,453 I know, but we need you to give it in court. I know, but we need you to give it in court.
467 00:25:19,413 00:25:20,739 What, with him there? What, with him there?
468 00:25:20,764 00:25:23,255 - You wouldn't have to be close to him. - No, I can't. - You wouldn't have to be close to him. - No, I can't.
469 00:25:23,280 00:25:26,942 - Carl... - He killed me, Mr Jay. - Carl... - He killed me, Mr Jay.
470 00:25:27,144 00:25:30,864 And then he... brought me back to life. And then he... brought me back to life.
471 00:25:31,435 00:25:34,317 I can't imagine what you've been through, Carl. I can't imagine what you've been through, Carl.
472 00:25:34,892 00:25:36,677 I really can't. I really can't.
473 00:25:37,771 00:25:39,442 But please believe me, But please believe me,
474 00:25:39,467 00:25:42,388 if he gets a lesser sentence, you'll find no peace. if he gets a lesser sentence, you'll find no peace.
475 00:25:42,763 00:25:45,162 I'm sorry. I can't... I'm sorry. I can't...
476 00:25:47,018 00:25:49,939 be in the same room as him. be in the same room as him.
477 00:25:51,395 00:25:53,224 I can't go back there. I can't go back there.
478 00:25:55,493 00:25:57,810 Then they'll subpoena you anyway. Then they'll subpoena you anyway.
479 00:25:57,835 00:26:00,115 You'll be forced to testify. You'll be forced to testify.
480 00:26:03,275 00:26:05,474 So I don't have a choice? So I don't have a choice?
481 00:26:15,219 00:26:16,738 [DOOR OPENS] [DOOR OPENS]
482 00:26:23,340 00:26:25,261 [DOOR SLAMS SHUT] [DOOR SLAMS SHUT]
483 00:26:25,930 00:26:28,606 I swear by Almighty God that the evidence I shall give I swear by Almighty God that the evidence I shall give
484 00:26:28,631 00:26:32,130 shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing by the truth. shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing by the truth.
485 00:26:33,334 00:26:35,263 Could you recount, Mr Stottor, Could you recount, Mr Stottor,
486 00:26:35,288 00:26:37,989 the events of that night in April 1982, the events of that night in April 1982,
487 00:26:38,014 00:26:39,453 when you met the defendant? when you met the defendant?
488 00:26:45,220 00:26:49,188 Where, for example, did you meet Mr Nilsen? Where, for example, did you meet Mr Nilsen?
489 00:26:49,325 00:26:51,372 In The Black Cap, Camden. In The Black Cap, Camden.
490 00:26:51,606 00:26:53,192 I was depressed. I was depressed.
491 00:26:53,497 00:26:56,239 I'd just broken up with someone. I'd just broken up with someone.
492 00:26:56,264 00:26:59,264 Speak up, please, Mr Stottor. Speak up, please, Mr Stottor.
493 00:27:03,131 00:27:04,610 He was nice to me. He was nice to me.
494 00:27:04,989 00:27:07,435 In what sense was he nice? In what sense was he nice?
495 00:27:07,654 00:27:10,661 He bought me drinks. He bought me drinks.
496 00:27:10,686 00:27:13,886 Er... He asked me about my family. Er... He asked me about my family.
497 00:27:14,253 00:27:16,653 He asked if you had family? He asked if you had family?
498 00:27:16,773 00:27:21,493 Yes, and then he invited me back to his flat for a drink. Yes, and then he invited me back to his flat for a drink.
499 00:27:22,222 00:27:25,802 Um... We just drank a lot and then he said Um... We just drank a lot and then he said
500 00:27:25,827 00:27:28,278 I could go to sleep on his bed. I could go to sleep on his bed.
501 00:27:28,303 00:27:31,083 And then he warned me not to get caught And then he warned me not to get caught
502 00:27:31,108 00:27:33,388 in the zip of the sleeping bag. in the zip of the sleeping bag.
503 00:27:33,569 00:27:34,849 Why do you think that was? Why do you think that was?
504 00:27:34,874 00:27:37,034 Was it perhaps because he was planning an alibi Was it perhaps because he was planning an alibi
505 00:27:37,059 00:27:39,286 - in case you managed to escape? - Objection, my Lord. - in case you managed to escape? - Objection, my Lord.
506 00:27:39,311 00:27:41,552 - Leading. - Sustained. - Leading. - Sustained.
507 00:27:41,641 00:27:43,841 Tell us what happened next. Tell us what happened next.
508 00:27:50,644 00:27:52,708 I woke up and I couldn't breathe. I woke up and I couldn't breathe.
509 00:27:53,129 00:27:56,669 He was behind me and... He was behind me and...
510 00:27:56,694 00:27:59,294 I could feel something digging into my neck. I could feel something digging into my neck.
511 00:28:00,771 00:28:03,606 The pressure got worse... The pressure got worse...
512 00:28:03,959 00:28:06,169 and the pain was unbearable. and the pain was unbearable.
513 00:28:06,194 00:28:07,908 I couldn't see, I couldn't see,
514 00:28:07,933 00:28:10,833 or speak, or swallow. or speak, or swallow.
515 00:28:10,858 00:28:13,552 And I could hear him saying, "Keep still". And I could hear him saying, "Keep still".
516 00:28:14,627 00:28:17,880 The next thing I knew, I was in water. The next thing I knew, I was in water.
517 00:28:18,928 00:28:22,614 In a bath. Being pushed down. Again and again. In a bath. Being pushed down. Again and again.
518 00:28:22,685 00:28:26,684 And I didn't know where I was or what was happening. And I didn't know where I was or what was happening.
519 00:28:26,709 00:28:30,325 And I swallowed water. And I swallowed water.
520 00:28:30,752 00:28:34,591 I couldn't resist any more and I realised... I couldn't resist any more and I realised...
521 00:28:35,466 00:28:37,778 that I was dying. that I was dying.
522 00:28:39,234 00:28:40,888 Thank you, Mr Stottor. Thank you, Mr Stottor.
523 00:28:40,913 00:28:42,731 No further questions, my Lord. No further questions, my Lord.
524 00:28:43,011 00:28:46,724 You have an alter-ego, Mr Stottor, do you not? You have an alter-ego, Mr Stottor, do you not?
525 00:28:47,263 00:28:49,422 Khara Le Fox. Khara Le Fox.
526 00:28:49,591 00:28:51,302 A drag act. A drag act.
527 00:28:51,327 00:28:53,411 You're a female impersonator. You're a female impersonator.
528 00:28:53,436 00:28:55,028 I used to be, yes. I used to be, yes.
529 00:28:55,053 00:28:57,817 You've already been asked, Mr Stottor, You've already been asked, Mr Stottor,
530 00:28:57,842 00:28:59,653 if you could speak up if you could speak up
531 00:28:59,678 00:29:02,028 for the benefit of the court? for the benefit of the court?
532 00:29:02,372 00:29:03,512 [LOUDER] Yes. [LOUDER] Yes.
533 00:29:04,498 00:29:05,973 But... But...
534 00:29:06,546 00:29:11,065 since the attack, I'm not able to sing any more. since the attack, I'm not able to sing any more.
535 00:29:11,090 00:29:14,251 And you had several relationships with men, And you had several relationships with men,
536 00:29:14,276 00:29:17,508 including one which became abusive. including one which became abusive.
537 00:29:17,533 00:29:21,339 Your night with Nilsen was, therefore, Your night with Nilsen was, therefore,
538 00:29:21,364 00:29:24,395 not your first violent homosexual encounter... not your first violent homosexual encounter...
539 00:29:24,420 00:29:27,005 My Lord, I must object to this line of questioning. My Lord, I must object to this line of questioning.
540 00:29:27,030 00:29:29,309 A history of deviant encounters A history of deviant encounters
541 00:29:29,334 00:29:32,669 raises the possibility of a sex game gone wrong, my Lord. raises the possibility of a sex game gone wrong, my Lord.
542 00:29:32,694 00:29:35,770 Sustained. Move on, Mr Lawrence. Sustained. Move on, Mr Lawrence.
543 00:29:36,228 00:29:38,817 Now, could you tell us, Mr Stottor, Now, could you tell us, Mr Stottor,
544 00:29:38,842 00:29:42,332 where you woke up after you had been in the bath? where you woke up after you had been in the bath?
545 00:29:43,294 00:29:44,533 On the bed. On the bed.
546 00:29:44,572 00:29:48,332 On the bed. And was the room warm or cold? On the bed. And was the room warm or cold?
547 00:29:48,809 00:29:49,942 Warm. Warm.
548 00:29:49,967 00:29:52,145 Nilsen had heated the room, had he not? Nilsen had heated the room, had he not?
549 00:29:52,170 00:29:55,528 He had put on all the bars on the electric fire. He had put on all the bars on the electric fire.
550 00:29:56,738 00:29:59,658 Yes, I suppose so. Yes, I suppose so.
551 00:29:59,754 00:30:03,215 And how long after you woke up did you leave the flat? And how long after you woke up did you leave the flat?
552 00:30:03,240 00:30:08,137 Well, I kept falling asleep, so maybe one or two days. Well, I kept falling asleep, so maybe one or two days.
553 00:30:08,162 00:30:09,856 One or two days. One or two days.
554 00:30:09,881 00:30:13,231 Did Nilsen keep you under duress? Did Nilsen keep you under duress?
555 00:30:13,256 00:30:18,450 No, but I was very confused... No, but I was very confused...
556 00:30:18,575 00:30:20,778 and also in a lot of pain. and also in a lot of pain.
557 00:30:20,803 00:30:22,200 Did he, in fact, Did he, in fact,
558 00:30:22,225 00:30:26,225 walk you to the tube station when you wanted to go? walk you to the tube station when you wanted to go?
559 00:30:27,062 00:30:28,181 Yes. Yes.
560 00:30:28,206 00:30:32,123 This supposedly cold and calculating killer, This supposedly cold and calculating killer,
561 00:30:32,148 00:30:34,490 with every opportunity to finish the job, with every opportunity to finish the job,
562 00:30:34,515 00:30:38,412 instead let you sleep in a warm bed for days, instead let you sleep in a warm bed for days,
563 00:30:38,437 00:30:40,865 before seeing you home safely. before seeing you home safely.
564 00:30:40,890 00:30:44,130 In fact, aside from the incident itself, In fact, aside from the incident itself,
565 00:30:44,155 00:30:48,810 did he not show you more care and kindness that evening did he not show you more care and kindness that evening
566 00:30:48,835 00:30:52,740 than anyone else in your life had done for a very long time? than anyone else in your life had done for a very long time?
567 00:30:55,220 00:30:56,659 Yes. Yes.
568 00:30:59,309 00:31:01,269 That's what I can't understand. That's what I can't understand.
569 00:31:02,403 00:31:04,762 Is he my murderer or my saviour? Is he my murderer or my saviour?
570 00:31:05,993 00:31:10,201 How peculiar that is. How peculiar that is.
571 00:31:11,407 00:31:13,654 No further questions, my Lord. No further questions, my Lord.
572 00:31:15,274 00:31:17,514 You may step down, Mr Stottor. You may step down, Mr Stottor.
573 00:31:23,053 00:31:24,533 You did really well in there. You did really well in there.
574 00:31:24,795 00:31:25,926 Listen, Carl... Listen, Carl...
575 00:31:25,951 00:31:27,428 I want to go home now. I want to go home now.
576 00:31:27,476 00:31:30,451 [CROWD CALLS OUT] [CROWD CALLS OUT]
577 00:31:30,476 00:31:33,310 [MAN SHOUTS] He should have killed you, you queer! [MAN SHOUTS] He should have killed you, you queer!
578 00:31:47,651 00:31:50,381 [VOICES FADE] [VOICES FADE]
579 00:31:56,213 00:31:57,685 Mr Jay... Mr Jay...
580 00:32:05,679 00:32:08,170 I feel I owe you an apology. I feel I owe you an apology.
581 00:32:09,916 00:32:11,607 You were right. You were right.
582 00:32:12,479 00:32:13,928 He's not insane. He's not insane.
583 00:32:14,647 00:32:17,771 He knew exactly what he was doing. He knew exactly what he was doing.
584 00:32:18,677 00:32:23,236 As much then as he does now. As much then as he does now.
585 00:32:42,846 00:32:46,100 [PHOTOGRAPHERS SHOUT] [PHOTOGRAPHERS SHOUT]
586 00:33:16,849 00:33:18,329 Detective, are you confident? Detective, are you confident?
587 00:33:18,354 00:33:20,753 Do you think you'll get justice for the victims, Detective? Do you think you'll get justice for the victims, Detective?
588 00:33:21,216 00:33:23,576 In the following days you interviewed him at length. In the following days you interviewed him at length.
589 00:33:23,601 00:33:25,012 Is that correct? Is that correct?
590 00:33:25,045 00:33:28,146 Yes, we interviewed him for a total of 31 hours. Yes, we interviewed him for a total of 31 hours.
591 00:33:28,171 00:33:29,612 And in those 31 hours, And in those 31 hours,
592 00:33:29,637 00:33:33,118 did Mr Nilsen ever mention visions or voices in his head did Mr Nilsen ever mention visions or voices in his head
593 00:33:33,143 00:33:35,576 - telling him to commit his crimes? - No. - telling him to commit his crimes? - No.
594 00:33:35,601 00:33:36,857 Did he ever show any signs at all Did he ever show any signs at all
595 00:33:36,881 00:33:39,006 of being out of his mind, so to speak, of being out of his mind, so to speak,
596 00:33:39,031 00:33:41,014 or mentally unwell in any way? or mentally unwell in any way?
597 00:33:41,053 00:33:42,805 No. Quite the opposite, in fact. No. Quite the opposite, in fact.
598 00:33:42,830 00:33:45,973 He seemed... calm. He seemed... calm.
599 00:33:46,167 00:33:48,675 Collected. In control. Collected. In control.
600 00:33:48,700 00:33:50,940 - Hardly a madman. - No. - Hardly a madman. - No.
601 00:33:51,165 00:33:52,885 Detective Chief Inspector Jay, Detective Chief Inspector Jay,
602 00:33:52,910 00:33:54,102 could you please tell the court, could you please tell the court,
603 00:33:54,126 00:33:56,388 for how long have you been a police officer? for how long have you been a police officer?
604 00:33:56,558 00:33:58,242 Almost 23 years. Almost 23 years.
605 00:33:58,267 00:34:00,379 And based on those years of experience, And based on those years of experience,
606 00:34:00,404 00:34:03,916 what is your professional opinion of Dennis Nilsen? what is your professional opinion of Dennis Nilsen?
607 00:34:06,447 00:34:09,264 I've seen criminals in all shapes and sizes. I've seen criminals in all shapes and sizes.
608 00:34:10,486 00:34:11,601 When they're on remand, When they're on remand,
609 00:34:11,626 00:34:14,435 they ask to be visited by all sorts of people, they ask to be visited by all sorts of people,
610 00:34:14,730 00:34:17,659 priests, rabbis, imams. priests, rabbis, imams.
611 00:34:18,057 00:34:21,061 I even had a fella who asked for a shaman. I even had a fella who asked for a shaman.
612 00:34:21,873 00:34:25,884 Because most of them are just wanting forgiveness. Because most of them are just wanting forgiveness.
613 00:34:27,797 00:34:29,200 Mr Nilsen's only visitor Mr Nilsen's only visitor
614 00:34:29,225 00:34:31,580 in the eight months whilst he was on remand in the eight months whilst he was on remand
615 00:34:31,917 00:34:33,533 was a biographer. was a biographer.
616 00:34:35,227 00:34:38,334 In my opinion, he's a remorseless coward In my opinion, he's a remorseless coward
617 00:34:38,359 00:34:41,580 who killed innocent and vulnerable men as they slept. who killed innocent and vulnerable men as they slept.
618 00:34:43,147 00:34:44,690 Thank you, Detective Chief Inspector. Thank you, Detective Chief Inspector.
619 00:34:44,715 00:34:46,494 No further questions, my Lord. No further questions, my Lord.
620 00:34:47,064 00:34:48,930 Detective Chief Inspector, Detective Chief Inspector,
621 00:34:48,955 00:34:53,419 you say you interviewed Nilsen for 31 hours, yes? you say you interviewed Nilsen for 31 hours, yes?
622 00:34:53,444 00:34:54,444 That's right. That's right.
623 00:34:54,469 00:34:58,270 In all that time of him talking almost incessantly, In all that time of him talking almost incessantly,
624 00:34:58,295 00:35:03,014 did he ever mention planning the murders at all? did he ever mention planning the murders at all?
625 00:35:04,318 00:35:05,547 No. No.
626 00:35:05,990 00:35:08,007 No further questions, my Lord. No further questions, my Lord.
627 00:35:08,272 00:35:09,875 You may step down, Officer. You may step down, Officer.
628 00:35:10,074 00:35:11,260 Thank you. Thank you.
629 00:35:12,738 00:35:15,223 We have an old Latin phrase in the law, We have an old Latin phrase in the law,
630 00:35:15,248 00:35:17,091 "Res ipsa loquitur", "Res ipsa loquitur",
631 00:35:17,116 00:35:19,200 "The act speaks for itself." "The act speaks for itself."
632 00:35:19,467 00:35:21,842 What sort of man kills people, What sort of man kills people,
633 00:35:21,867 00:35:24,644 lives with their bodies rotting under the floorboards, lives with their bodies rotting under the floorboards,
634 00:35:24,669 00:35:28,536 and flushes pieces of them down the lavatory? and flushes pieces of them down the lavatory?
635 00:35:28,561 00:35:33,013 Do these seem to you the actions of a man in his right mind? Do these seem to you the actions of a man in his right mind?
636 00:35:33,277 00:35:36,082 If you think, as we invite you to think, If you think, as we invite you to think,
637 00:35:36,107 00:35:38,227 and as the evidence surely shows, and as the evidence surely shows,
638 00:35:38,252 00:35:42,204 that these crimes were not planned or premeditated, that these crimes were not planned or premeditated,
639 00:35:42,229 00:35:45,898 but were due to Nilsen's seriously abnormal personality but were due to Nilsen's seriously abnormal personality
640 00:35:45,923 00:35:47,198 and way of thinking, and way of thinking,
641 00:35:47,223 00:35:50,348 then you will find him not guilty of murder, then you will find him not guilty of murder,
642 00:35:50,373 00:35:54,889 but guilty of manslaughter by way of diminished responsibility. but guilty of manslaughter by way of diminished responsibility.
643 00:35:55,030 00:35:58,311 That is the verdict which we invite you to return. That is the verdict which we invite you to return.
644 00:36:01,165 00:36:02,926 What's taking them so long? What's taking them so long?
645 00:36:04,280 00:36:07,340 Same again? Wee ones? Same again? Wee ones?
646 00:36:12,594 00:36:14,442 [DOOR OPENS] [DOOR OPENS]
647 00:36:30,132 00:36:32,013 Madam Foreman of the jury. Madam Foreman of the jury.
648 00:36:33,632 00:36:36,592 Have you reached verdicts on which you are all agreed? Have you reached verdicts on which you are all agreed?
649 00:36:37,272 00:36:38,908 No, we have not. No, we have not.
650 00:36:38,933 00:36:40,571 [THEY SIGH] [THEY SIGH]
651 00:36:40,596 00:36:44,605 Might you reach a verdict if the court sits until early evening? Might you reach a verdict if the court sits until early evening?
652 00:36:44,855 00:36:46,977 I don't believe so, your Honour. I don't believe so, your Honour.
653 00:36:47,002 00:36:49,477 Very well. You will retire overnight. Very well. You will retire overnight.
654 00:36:49,502 00:36:51,502 The court will reconvene in the morning The court will reconvene in the morning
655 00:36:51,527 00:36:54,286 where I will accept a majority verdict. where I will accept a majority verdict.
656 00:37:01,210 00:37:02,731 TV REPORT: More time's now being spent TV REPORT: More time's now being spent
657 00:37:02,756 00:37:05,352 on what's possibly wrong with Dennis Nilsen on what's possibly wrong with Dennis Nilsen
658 00:37:05,377 00:37:07,258 than what he's actually done. than what he's actually done.
659 00:37:07,418 00:37:11,758 A man who has described himself as the "murderer of the century". A man who has described himself as the "murderer of the century".
660 00:37:11,783 00:37:15,813 A defence psychiatrist said Nilsen acted as if he were the judge, A defence psychiatrist said Nilsen acted as if he were the judge,
661 00:37:15,838 00:37:18,478 judging this case of an infamous crime. judging this case of an infamous crime.
662 00:37:18,503 00:37:19,556 He shows off. He shows off.
663 00:37:19,581 00:37:22,965 He really believes he is the most important person of the century. He really believes he is the most important person of the century.
664 00:37:22,990 00:37:26,808 The defence expert found another way of describing Nilsen's mind. The defence expert found another way of describing Nilsen's mind.
665 00:37:26,833 00:37:29,059 "His personality was like his house. "His personality was like his house.
666 00:37:29,084 00:37:31,460 "It looked perfectly all right from the outside, "It looked perfectly all right from the outside,
667 00:37:31,485 00:37:34,301 "but perhaps there was something of a funny smell about it, "but perhaps there was something of a funny smell about it,
668 00:37:34,326 00:37:36,112 "and when you looked under the floorboards, "and when you looked under the floorboards,
669 00:37:36,137 00:37:38,018 "you would find horrors." "you would find horrors."
670 00:37:38,524 00:37:40,267 The jury is returning. The jury is returning.
671 00:38:08,439 00:38:10,636 Would the foreman of the jury please stand? Would the foreman of the jury please stand?
672 00:38:13,284 00:38:14,684 Madam Foreman, Madam Foreman,
673 00:38:14,709 00:38:17,340 do you have a majority on your verdicts? do you have a majority on your verdicts?
674 00:38:17,832 00:38:19,123 We do. We do.
675 00:38:19,567 00:38:22,625 On the charge of the murder of Stephen Sinclair, On the charge of the murder of Stephen Sinclair,
676 00:38:22,650 00:38:24,650 how do you find the defendant? how do you find the defendant?
677 00:38:25,965 00:38:27,284 Guilty. Guilty.
678 00:38:28,335 00:38:31,559 On the charge of the murder of Kenneth Ockenden, On the charge of the murder of Kenneth Ockenden,
679 00:38:31,673 00:38:33,448 how do you find the defendant? how do you find the defendant?
680 00:38:33,632 00:38:34,805 Guilty. Guilty.
681 00:38:34,844 00:38:37,804 On the charge of the murder of John Howlett, On the charge of the murder of John Howlett,
682 00:38:38,202 00:38:40,295 how do you find the defendant? how do you find the defendant?
683 00:38:40,320 00:38:41,331 Guilty. Guilty.
684 00:38:41,356 00:38:43,974 On the charge of the murder of Martyn Duffey, On the charge of the murder of Martyn Duffey,
685 00:38:43,999 00:38:45,729 how do you find the defendant? how do you find the defendant?
686 00:38:45,754 00:38:47,184 Guilty. Guilty.
687 00:38:47,209 00:38:50,157 On the charge of the murder of Billy Sutherland, On the charge of the murder of Billy Sutherland,
688 00:38:50,182 00:38:52,103 how do you find the defendant? how do you find the defendant?
689 00:38:52,128 00:38:53,489 Guilty. Guilty.
690 00:38:53,514 00:38:55,785 On the charge of the murder of Malcolm Barlow, On the charge of the murder of Malcolm Barlow,
691 00:38:55,813 00:38:57,355 how do you find the defendant? how do you find the defendant?
692 00:38:57,380 00:38:58,846 Guilty. Guilty.
693 00:38:58,871 00:39:02,447 On the charge of the attempted murder of Douglas Stewart, On the charge of the attempted murder of Douglas Stewart,
694 00:39:02,472 00:39:04,088 how do you find the defendant? how do you find the defendant?
695 00:39:04,113 00:39:05,423 Guilty. Guilty.
696 00:39:05,757 00:39:09,036 On the charge of the attempted murder of Paul Nobbs, On the charge of the attempted murder of Paul Nobbs,
697 00:39:09,269 00:39:11,389 how do you find the defendant? how do you find the defendant?
698 00:39:11,550 00:39:12,829 Guilty. Guilty.
699 00:39:14,686 00:39:16,886 Dennis Andrew Nilsen, Dennis Andrew Nilsen,
700 00:39:16,911 00:39:19,897 your victims were innocent young men, your victims were innocent young men,
701 00:39:19,922 00:39:23,136 guilty only of accepting your hospitality, guilty only of accepting your hospitality,
702 00:39:23,161 00:39:28,036 whereupon you ended their lives cruelly and callously, whereupon you ended their lives cruelly and callously,
703 00:39:28,061 00:39:32,296 for reasons that will remain known only to you. for reasons that will remain known only to you.
704 00:39:33,620 00:39:37,765 The sentence for murder is fixed in law. The sentence for murder is fixed in law.
705 00:39:37,790 00:39:39,789 It is imprisonment for life, It is imprisonment for life,
706 00:39:39,814 00:39:42,613 and that is the sentence which I pass on you and that is the sentence which I pass on you
707 00:39:42,638 00:39:46,131 on each count of this indictment. on each count of this indictment.
708 00:39:47,931 00:39:49,491 Take him down. Take him down.
709 00:40:14,890 00:40:16,771 [DOOR SLAMS] [DOOR SLAMS]
710 00:40:16,796 00:40:18,676 [INDISTINCT CONVERSATION] [INDISTINCT CONVERSATION]
711 00:40:20,301 00:40:22,417 Mr Jay. Well done. Mr Jay. Well done.
712 00:40:22,442 00:40:24,441 It went down to the wire at the end, didn't it? It went down to the wire at the end, didn't it?
713 00:40:24,466 00:40:26,280 You must be pleased it's over. You must be pleased it's over.
714 00:40:28,465 00:40:31,546 If at any time in the future you remember any more names... If at any time in the future you remember any more names...
715 00:40:33,273 00:40:34,713 please write to me. please write to me.
716 00:40:35,493 00:40:37,353 I promise you'll be the first to know. I promise you'll be the first to know.
717 00:40:38,194 00:40:39,796 I think the jury got it right in the end. I think the jury got it right in the end.
718 00:40:39,821 00:40:41,646 - Yeah. - I don't think I'm mad. - Yeah. - I don't think I'm mad.
719 00:40:42,652 00:40:45,373 If you hadn't caught me that day... If you hadn't caught me that day...
720 00:40:47,352 00:40:50,239 it'd be 115, not 15. it'd be 115, not 15.
721 00:40:51,516 00:40:53,356 I could never have stopped. I could never have stopped.
722 00:40:56,466 00:40:57,785 Okay. Okay.
723 00:40:59,239 00:41:00,843 Good luck. Good luck.
724 00:41:30,957 00:41:32,758 What will you do with it all? What will you do with it all?
725 00:41:32,783 00:41:36,859 Oh, I don't know. Chuck most of it, probably. Oh, I don't know. Chuck most of it, probably.
726 00:41:42,001 00:41:44,543 Mr Jay... um... Mr Jay... um...
727 00:41:44,693 00:41:46,814 do you mind if I ask you a question? do you mind if I ask you a question?
728 00:41:47,737 00:41:48,936 Go on. Go on.
729 00:41:49,224 00:41:53,825 When you first met him, did you believe him straight away? When you first met him, did you believe him straight away?
730 00:41:55,553 00:41:57,029 Yes, I did. Yes, I did.
731 00:41:58,199 00:42:00,069 What went through your mind at that moment? What went through your mind at that moment?
732 00:42:00,094 00:42:02,253 Well, I thought, um... Well, I thought, um...
733 00:42:07,501 00:42:09,061 Honestly? Honestly?
734 00:42:12,697 00:42:15,458 The first thing I thought was, "I hope that I'm up to this." The first thing I thought was, "I hope that I'm up to this."
735 00:42:15,483 00:42:17,963 Don't put that in your book. Don't put that in your book.
736 00:42:19,242 00:42:20,922 You have my word. You have my word.
737 00:42:24,057 00:42:26,724 - And about my book... - No, look, it's fine. - And about my book... - No, look, it's fine.
738 00:42:29,747 00:42:32,178 We both had our way of looking at this. We both had our way of looking at this.
739 00:42:35,772 00:42:38,933 Well, what will they do with this place? Well, what will they do with this place?
740 00:42:39,449 00:42:41,362 I don't know. I don't know.
741 00:42:42,488 00:42:45,140 Sell it or rent it out, I'd imagine. Sell it or rent it out, I'd imagine.
742 00:42:46,085 00:42:48,705 Who'd want to live here? I mean, it's... Who'd want to live here? I mean, it's...
743 00:42:49,421 00:42:52,590 There's the smell for one thing. There's the smell for one thing.
744 00:42:54,602 00:42:56,340 D'you know the worst thing? D'you know the worst thing?
745 00:42:58,839 00:43:00,960 I don't smell it any more. I don't smell it any more.
746 00:43:06,889 00:43:08,690 I'll see you outside. I'll see you outside.
747 00:43:21,324 00:43:23,826 So, how have you been? So, how have you been?
748 00:43:23,883 00:43:25,033 Ah, you know. Ah, you know.
749 00:43:25,725 00:43:28,797 Adjusting to being a permanent resident, and all. Adjusting to being a permanent resident, and all.
750 00:43:29,521 00:43:31,667 Apart from that, not too bad. Apart from that, not too bad.
751 00:43:32,198 00:43:34,158 I read your book. My book. I read your book. My book.
752 00:43:34,326 00:43:35,651 What did you think? What did you think?
753 00:43:35,682 00:43:39,443 To be honest, Brian, I found it absolutely terrifying. To be honest, Brian, I found it absolutely terrifying.
754 00:43:41,008 00:43:42,633 But it's good, yeah. But it's good, yeah.
755 00:43:42,658 00:43:44,380 Much better than I expected. Much better than I expected.
756 00:43:44,601 00:43:46,568 Of course, I have some thoughts. Of course, I have some thoughts.
757 00:43:48,568 00:43:50,730 Please don't be discouraged by my observations. Please don't be discouraged by my observations.
758 00:43:50,755 00:43:53,748 I've lost none of my respect or admiration for you, I've lost none of my respect or admiration for you,
759 00:43:53,773 00:43:55,105 or your work. or your work.
760 00:44:00,908 00:44:02,839 Oh, well, thank you. Um... Oh, well, thank you. Um...
761 00:44:03,238 00:44:05,261 I'm sure it'll be very helpful. I'm sure it'll be very helpful.
762 00:44:05,402 00:44:08,042 My biggest concern is you didn't name any of the victims. My biggest concern is you didn't name any of the victims.
763 00:44:08,244 00:44:10,836 No, I-I wanted to respect their privacy. No, I-I wanted to respect their privacy.
764 00:44:11,095 00:44:13,741 Well, I think it's disrespectful not naming them. Well, I think it's disrespectful not naming them.
765 00:44:15,003 00:44:16,248 I robbed them of their life. I robbed them of their life.
766 00:44:16,273 00:44:18,137 Please don't rob them of their identities. Please don't rob them of their identities.
767 00:44:20,299 00:44:22,150 And the title, And the title,
768 00:44:23,159 00:44:25,542 Killing For Company, is a little... Killing For Company, is a little...
769 00:44:26,132 00:44:27,328 Ah. Ah.
770 00:44:27,825 00:44:29,671 It should just be Nilsen. It should just be Nilsen.
771 00:44:30,272 00:44:31,831 No. No.
772 00:44:31,942 00:44:33,123 Why not? Why not?
773 00:44:33,917 00:44:35,545 Book is about me, after all. Book is about me, after all.
774 00:44:35,570 00:44:37,612 I'm not going to call it Nilsen. I'm not going to call it Nilsen.
775 00:44:37,637 00:44:40,310 This isn't your book. It's not about you. This isn't your book. It's not about you.
776 00:44:40,813 00:44:42,910 It's about how someone like you came to be. It's about how someone like you came to be.
777 00:44:42,935 00:44:44,856 I told you when we first met I told you when we first met
778 00:44:44,881 00:44:48,542 that I wasn't going to use grisly or emotive adjectives, that I wasn't going to use grisly or emotive adjectives,
779 00:44:48,567 00:44:50,559 and I have stuck to my word. and I have stuck to my word.
780 00:44:51,532 00:44:53,549 But make no mistake, But make no mistake,
781 00:44:53,574 00:44:55,602 this isn't a celebration. this isn't a celebration.
782 00:44:56,555 00:44:58,756 It's a warning. It's a warning.
783 00:45:03,014 00:45:05,837 You know, there were only 12 victims, not 15. You know, there were only 12 victims, not 15.
784 00:45:08,775 00:45:11,874 When I sat in the back of the police car the night of my arrest, When I sat in the back of the police car the night of my arrest,
785 00:45:11,899 00:45:13,786 they asked me how many there were, and I wasn't very sure, they asked me how many there were, and I wasn't very sure,
786 00:45:13,810 00:45:16,263 so I just gave them a figure, "15 or 16". so I just gave them a figure, "15 or 16".
787 00:45:18,271 00:45:21,256 And three... three of those victims were invented, And three... three of those victims were invented,
788 00:45:22,182 00:45:25,518 just to complement the continuity of evidence for the police. just to complement the continuity of evidence for the police.
789 00:45:25,543 00:45:27,263 Keep them happy. Keep them happy.
790 00:45:28,707 00:45:31,707 Everybody has had a chance to write their version of my story. Everybody has had a chance to write their version of my story.
791 00:45:31,732 00:45:33,238 When's it my turn? When's it my turn?
792 00:45:41,682 00:45:44,523 I'll send you a copy when it's published. I'll send you a copy when it's published.
793 00:45:45,410 00:45:47,208 Come and see me again. Come and see me again.
794 00:46:01,533 00:46:06,086 _ _
795 00:46:06,370 00:46:11,569 _ _
796 00:46:17,227 00:46:21,711 _ _
797 00:46:21,922 00:46:27,513 _ _
798 00:46:29,853 00:46:32,151 _ _
799 00:46:32,218 00:46:34,190 _ _
800 00:46:34,384 00:46:38,394 _ _
801 00:46:38,596 00:46:43,067 _ _
802 00:46:45,293 00:46:47,407 _ _
803 00:46:47,560 00:46:49,367 _ _
804 00:46:49,465 00:46:51,248 _ _
805 00:47:01,736 00:47:04,736 Synced & corrected by QueenMaddie www.addic7ed.com Synced & corrected by QueenMaddie www.addic7ed.com