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1 00:00:08,195 00:00:12,009 _ _
2 00:00:18,254 00:00:20,423 _ _
3 00:00:20,448 00:00:22,276 _ _
4 00:00:34,349 00:00:36,251 _ _
5 00:00:36,276 00:00:38,141 _ _
6 00:00:45,611 00:00:49,413 Mr Nilsen has confessed killing 15 men, Mr Nilsen has confessed killing 15 men,
7 00:00:49,454 00:00:54,491 mostly homeless and vulnerable, over a period of five years. mostly homeless and vulnerable, over a period of five years.
8 00:00:54,845 00:00:57,985 We're now in the process of confirming that number. We're now in the process of confirming that number.
9 00:00:58,706 00:01:02,671 We're also aware that there are up to seven attempted murders. We're also aware that there are up to seven attempted murders.
10 00:01:02,696 00:01:05,905 So we ask anybody who may have visited So we ask anybody who may have visited
11 00:01:05,930 00:01:11,718 195 Melrose Avenue from December 1978 to 1981 195 Melrose Avenue from December 1978 to 1981
12 00:01:11,743 00:01:16,371 or 23 Cranley Gardens from 1981 to February this year or 23 Cranley Gardens from 1981 to February this year
13 00:01:16,396 00:01:18,555 to please call Hornsey Police Station to please call Hornsey Police Station
14 00:01:18,580 00:01:20,421 on the number behind me. on the number behind me.
15 00:01:24,531 00:01:26,837 If you know of anybody that's gone missing... If you know of anybody that's gone missing...
16 00:01:28,170 00:01:31,596 Sons, brothers, fathers... Sons, brothers, fathers...
17 00:01:32,260 00:01:37,119 uncles, nephews, cousins, friends... uncles, nephews, cousins, friends...
18 00:01:37,620 00:01:39,060 please contact us. please contact us.
19 00:01:40,068 00:01:41,317 Because we need your help. Because we need your help.
20 00:01:41,342 00:01:43,316 Okay, questions, please. Yes, Tim. Okay, questions, please. Yes, Tim.
21 00:01:43,341 00:01:45,930 How many of the victims have you identified so far? How many of the victims have you identified so far?
22 00:01:45,955 00:01:47,411 Other than Stephen Sinclair, Other than Stephen Sinclair,
23 00:01:47,450 00:01:49,107 we won't be naming any more of the victims we won't be naming any more of the victims
24 00:01:49,131 00:01:51,611 until official charges have been brought against Mr Nilsen. until official charges have been brought against Mr Nilsen.
25 00:01:51,636 00:01:53,356 - Charlotte. - How likely is it - Charlotte. - How likely is it
26 00:01:53,381 00:01:56,653 that you'll identify all 15 of his victims? that you'll identify all 15 of his victims?
27 00:01:58,073 00:02:01,474 Well, we're still in the process of assessing and analysing Well, we're still in the process of assessing and analysing
28 00:02:01,499 00:02:03,802 the evidence from Melrose Avenue... the evidence from Melrose Avenue...
29 00:02:07,053 00:02:11,888 Synced & corrected by QueenMaddie www.addic7ed.com Synced & corrected by QueenMaddie www.addic7ed.com
30 00:02:11,913 00:02:14,234 [PHONE RINGS] [PHONE RINGS]
31 00:02:15,738 00:02:18,266 Yes, yes, I understand. Yes, yes, I understand.
32 00:02:18,415 00:02:21,328 We're absolutely certain, he killed only male. We're absolutely certain, he killed only male.
33 00:02:22,986 00:02:25,983 His father recognised the knives on the television. His father recognised the knives on the television.
34 00:02:26,008 00:02:28,766 Gave them to him as a gift for starting chef's school. Gave them to him as a gift for starting chef's school.
35 00:02:29,250 00:02:30,256 But according to him, But according to him,
36 00:02:30,281 00:02:32,181 his son never turned up on the first day of class his son never turned up on the first day of class
37 00:02:32,205 00:02:34,561 and he hasn't seen him since May, 1980, and he hasn't seen him since May, 1980,
38 00:02:34,586 00:02:37,781 which would match Nilsen's dates for his third victim. which would match Nilsen's dates for his third victim.
39 00:02:37,985 00:02:39,050 Next step? Next step?
40 00:02:39,075 00:02:40,874 Well, Nilsen's requested a visit, Well, Nilsen's requested a visit,
41 00:02:40,899 00:02:44,024 so I'll take the photo with me and get him to confirm. so I'll take the photo with me and get him to confirm.
42 00:02:44,049 00:02:46,762 - Requested a visit? - Yeah. - Requested a visit? - Yeah.
43 00:02:46,787 00:02:48,851 I'm hoping he's remembered some more names. I'm hoping he's remembered some more names.
44 00:02:49,365 00:02:52,055 - How are you coping? - Oh, good. - How are you coping? - Oh, good.
45 00:02:53,093 00:02:56,090 We're trying to get through the 8,000 missing persons reports. We're trying to get through the 8,000 missing persons reports.
46 00:02:56,115 00:02:58,287 No, I'm good, thanks. We need more manpower, No, I'm good, thanks. We need more manpower,
47 00:02:58,312 00:02:59,982 but you know that. but you know that.
48 00:03:00,302 00:03:02,107 I'm still trying. I'm still trying.
49 00:03:02,419 00:03:04,529 What's going on with John the guardsman? What's going on with John the guardsman?
50 00:03:04,554 00:03:06,980 Healey's checking all the guardsmen called John. Healey's checking all the guardsmen called John.
51 00:03:07,005 00:03:10,718 - He's been on that for a few weeks. - There's 256 of them. - He's been on that for a few weeks. - There's 256 of them.
52 00:03:11,099 00:03:14,330 Gonna take some time, but he'll find him. Gonna take some time, but he'll find him.
53 00:03:15,121 00:03:17,349 Speaking of which, erm... Speaking of which, erm...
54 00:03:18,592 00:03:20,946 We think we might have another lead. We think we might have another lead.
55 00:03:21,318 00:03:24,560 Lodge found three dental plates in the dig at Melrose. Lodge found three dental plates in the dig at Melrose.
56 00:03:24,585 00:03:27,465 One of them is only made in Germany. One of them is only made in Germany.
57 00:03:27,490 00:03:29,793 So he thinks if he can go over there... So he thinks if he can go over there...
58 00:03:29,818 00:03:31,496 - To Germany? - He can narrow it down - To Germany? - He can narrow it down
59 00:03:31,521 00:03:33,145 and probably come up with another name. and probably come up with another name.
60 00:03:33,170 00:03:36,238 Guv, look, I know it's a long shot, but... Guv, look, I know it's a long shot, but...
61 00:03:36,767 00:03:39,087 If we get another name, it's gotta be worth it, right? If we get another name, it's gotta be worth it, right?
62 00:03:41,006 00:03:44,386 There's talk from the Yard. As far as they're concerned, There's talk from the Yard. As far as they're concerned,
63 00:03:44,411 00:03:46,751 they already have him on three counts of murder. they already have him on three counts of murder.
64 00:03:47,259 00:03:49,548 We told the press last week we think it's 15. We told the press last week we think it's 15.
65 00:03:49,573 00:03:51,806 Why do you think we're still active? Why do you think we're still active?
66 00:03:52,103 00:03:53,587 I'm just warning you. I'm just warning you.
67 00:03:53,612 00:03:56,452 We need to start closing the leads we already have, We need to start closing the leads we already have,
68 00:03:56,477 00:03:59,705 not opening new ones, especially in different countries. not opening new ones, especially in different countries.
69 00:04:00,048 00:04:02,744 They're nervous about how much this is costing already. They're nervous about how much this is costing already.
70 00:04:02,769 00:04:04,425 Oh, so this is about money? Oh, so this is about money?
71 00:04:04,634 00:04:07,681 Everything is always about money, Peter. Everything is always about money, Peter.
72 00:04:07,706 00:04:09,720 We've just gotta be smart. We've just gotta be smart.
73 00:04:11,549 00:04:13,228 Thank you. Thank you.
74 00:04:18,147 00:04:20,664 No wonder that half of Category A's on hunger strike. No wonder that half of Category A's on hunger strike.
75 00:04:20,689 00:04:23,312 I might well join them, just to break the monotony. I might well join them, just to break the monotony.
76 00:04:23,337 00:04:24,337 No. No.
77 00:04:24,869 00:04:26,669 Oh, and let me tell you... Oh, and let me tell you...
78 00:04:28,730 00:04:31,691 It's perfectly feasible to be on normal rations in here It's perfectly feasible to be on normal rations in here
79 00:04:31,730 00:04:34,234 and still effectively remain on hunger strike. and still effectively remain on hunger strike.
80 00:04:34,259 00:04:35,870 I don't even know why I'm Category A in the first place. I don't even know why I'm Category A in the first place.
81 00:04:35,894 00:04:37,806 I'm hardly gonna escape, commit suicide. I'm hardly gonna escape, commit suicide.
82 00:04:37,831 00:04:39,026 - Des... - The help I'm giving the police - Des... - The help I'm giving the police
83 00:04:39,050 00:04:40,376 should be rewarded, not punished. should be rewarded, not punished.
84 00:04:40,401 00:04:42,134 Let me see what we can do. Let me see what we can do.
85 00:04:42,737 00:04:44,416 You said that before. You said that before.
86 00:04:47,822 00:04:49,369 Martyn Duffey. Martyn Duffey.
87 00:04:50,314 00:04:51,892 Is he one of them? Is he one of them?
88 00:04:52,002 00:04:53,826 Yeah, of course. Martyn. Yeah, of course. Martyn.
89 00:04:53,851 00:04:55,411 Yeah, he was number three. Yeah, he was number three.
90 00:04:55,451 00:04:57,971 The one I told you about that I met at Euston Station. The one I told you about that I met at Euston Station.
91 00:04:59,138 00:05:01,500 - Have you any more? - Hopefully soon. - Have you any more? - Hopefully soon.
92 00:05:02,629 00:05:05,040 You said that you had some more information for me. You said that you had some more information for me.
93 00:05:05,065 00:05:08,148 Or was that just so you could talk about your living situation? Or was that just so you could talk about your living situation?
94 00:05:08,173 00:05:09,887 No, I'd never do that. No, I'd never do that.
95 00:05:10,963 00:05:12,417 Any news about Bleep? Any news about Bleep?
96 00:05:12,824 00:05:14,984 Just, I've heard nothing about her since I got in here. Just, I've heard nothing about her since I got in here.
97 00:05:16,032 00:05:19,605 I'll call the dogs' home. See what I can find out. I'll call the dogs' home. See what I can find out.
98 00:05:21,759 00:05:23,777 I actually have another name for you. I actually have another name for you.
99 00:05:24,007 00:05:27,426 Uh... Yeah, one of the young men at Melrose Avenue. Uh... Yeah, one of the young men at Melrose Avenue.
100 00:05:27,451 00:05:29,411 I just woke up, his name was just there. I just woke up, his name was just there.
101 00:05:30,137 00:05:31,775 Kenneth Ockenden. Kenneth Ockenden.
102 00:05:33,183 00:05:34,621 Ockenden? Ockenden?
103 00:05:34,778 00:05:36,090 Hmm. Hmm.
104 00:05:37,168 00:05:40,783 You're a 100% sure? Kenneth Ockenden? You're a 100% sure? Kenneth Ockenden?
105 00:05:40,808 00:05:43,851 Yeah. The Canadian lad, was all over the news when he went missing. Yeah. The Canadian lad, was all over the news when he went missing.
106 00:05:43,891 00:05:45,973 Did you hold his name back from us? Did you hold his name back from us?
107 00:05:46,026 00:05:47,826 No, why would you say that? No, why would you say that?
108 00:05:48,908 00:05:51,187 I want these people identified and laid to rest I want these people identified and laid to rest
109 00:05:51,212 00:05:53,082 just as much as you do, Mr Jay. just as much as you do, Mr Jay.
110 00:05:53,107 00:05:55,308 I'm simply trying to tell the truth. I'm simply trying to tell the truth.
111 00:06:00,431 00:06:02,902 - But he can't have. - Why not? - But he can't have. - Why not?
112 00:06:02,927 00:06:05,737 Because Ockenden was investigated for three years. Because Ockenden was investigated for three years.
113 00:06:05,762 00:06:07,933 Right, they found nothing. Right, they found nothing.
114 00:06:08,168 00:06:09,323 What are you thinking? What are you thinking?
115 00:06:09,348 00:06:10,827 Well, we're gonna request the files Well, we're gonna request the files
116 00:06:10,852 00:06:12,768 and treat it as a murder investigation. and treat it as a murder investigation.
117 00:06:12,793 00:06:15,211 - What's the problem? - I know some of the guys, Peter. - What's the problem? - I know some of the guys, Peter.
118 00:06:15,250 00:06:17,785 Ockenden was a difficult case for them. Ockenden was a difficult case for them.
119 00:06:17,891 00:06:20,543 And the press weren't exactly kind when they couldn't find him. And the press weren't exactly kind when they couldn't find him.
120 00:06:20,568 00:06:22,582 All right, Steve, request the files. All right, Steve, request the files.
121 00:06:24,627 00:06:26,744 Can I tell Martyn Duffey's dad? Can I tell Martyn Duffey's dad?
122 00:06:26,769 00:06:29,571 I made him certain promises when he first came forward. I made him certain promises when he first came forward.
123 00:06:30,207 00:06:31,393 Yeah, course. Yeah, course.
124 00:06:31,418 00:06:34,250 Sorry, boss, you might both want to hear this. Sorry, boss, you might both want to hear this.
125 00:06:34,290 00:06:37,124 Someone's just called saying he's Nilsen's biographer. Someone's just called saying he's Nilsen's biographer.
126 00:06:37,249 00:06:38,593 - Eh? - Yeah. - Eh? - Yeah.
127 00:06:38,618 00:06:39,726 He asked if we could tell him He asked if we could tell him
128 00:06:39,750 00:06:41,929 anything about the investigation or the arrest. anything about the investigation or the arrest.
129 00:06:42,459 00:06:45,054 No, look, that's just a rag trying to get a quote. No, look, that's just a rag trying to get a quote.
130 00:06:45,257 00:06:47,265 If they call back, tell 'em to piss off. If they call back, tell 'em to piss off.
131 00:06:47,290 00:06:48,624 Gladly. Gladly.
132 00:06:49,152 00:06:50,569 Steve? Steve?
133 00:06:51,327 00:06:53,319 Let me know when you get the files. Let me know when you get the files.
134 00:06:59,971 00:07:02,763 Kenneth Ockenden. Canadian tourist. Kenneth Ockenden. Canadian tourist.
135 00:07:02,788 00:07:06,211 Left his hotel in Kings Cross December 3rd. Left his hotel in Kings Cross December 3rd.
136 00:07:06,265 00:07:09,986 He was meant to meet his uncle on the 5th He was meant to meet his uncle on the 5th
137 00:07:10,011 00:07:13,187 to collect some money for a plane home for Christmas. to collect some money for a plane home for Christmas.
138 00:07:13,796 00:07:15,255 He was never seen again. He was never seen again.
139 00:07:15,280 00:07:17,891 What, and Nilsen's only just remembered this? What, and Nilsen's only just remembered this?
140 00:07:17,930 00:07:20,656 Nilsen says he met him in a West End pub. Nilsen says he met him in a West End pub.
141 00:07:21,517 00:07:24,742 They talked about his camera, they spent the day sightseeing. They talked about his camera, they spent the day sightseeing.
142 00:07:25,265 00:07:27,866 That night, he strangled him with a headphone cord That night, he strangled him with a headphone cord
143 00:07:27,891 00:07:30,570 as Ockenden listened to music in Melrose Avenue. as Ockenden listened to music in Melrose Avenue.
144 00:07:30,927 00:07:33,787 He disposed of his body in the garden, as per, He disposed of his body in the garden, as per,
145 00:07:33,812 00:07:36,820 so we are currently looking for any signs of him in the dig. so we are currently looking for any signs of him in the dig.
146 00:07:36,845 00:07:39,785 Now, look, we all hope that we find something at Melrose, Now, look, we all hope that we find something at Melrose,
147 00:07:39,810 00:07:43,451 but until we do, these files are our... but until we do, these files are our...
148 00:07:44,482 00:07:45,802 They're our best shot. They're our best shot.
149 00:07:46,734 00:07:49,828 Now, look. I know you all think you might know about this case Now, look. I know you all think you might know about this case
150 00:07:49,853 00:07:52,718 because of the media coverage, but we can't half-arse this. because of the media coverage, but we can't half-arse this.
151 00:07:53,137 00:07:54,859 Nilsen is in there. Nilsen is in there.
152 00:07:56,374 00:07:57,812 Somewhere. Somewhere.
153 00:07:57,837 00:07:59,437 Have you finished? Have you finished?
154 00:08:00,091 00:08:03,211 I tell you explicitly not to open any more leads I tell you explicitly not to open any more leads
155 00:08:03,236 00:08:06,203 and you open Kenneth bloody Ockenden! and you open Kenneth bloody Ockenden!
156 00:08:06,411 00:08:09,610 Ockenden's mother had links to the Canadian parliament. Ockenden's mother had links to the Canadian parliament.
157 00:08:09,651 00:08:11,928 His disappearance became political! His disappearance became political!
158 00:08:11,953 00:08:14,011 So you can imagine the Yard's reaction So you can imagine the Yard's reaction
159 00:08:14,050 00:08:18,250 to you making it a murder enquiry with a serial killer as a suspect. to you making it a murder enquiry with a serial killer as a suspect.
160 00:08:18,275 00:08:20,523 - Nilsen says he killed him, guv. - Of course he did! - Nilsen says he killed him, guv. - Of course he did!
161 00:08:20,548 00:08:22,757 He'd say anything to stay in the papers. He'd say anything to stay in the papers.
162 00:08:25,504 00:08:28,905 Ockenden doesn't fit the victim profile, Peter. Ockenden doesn't fit the victim profile, Peter.
163 00:08:28,930 00:08:31,951 He wasn't homeless or an addict. He wasn't even gay. He wasn't homeless or an addict. He wasn't even gay.
164 00:08:31,976 00:08:34,671 - He had a girlfriend back in Canada. - That doesn't mean anything. - He had a girlfriend back in Canada. - That doesn't mean anything.
165 00:08:34,696 00:08:36,585 Then why did he go home with him? Then why did he go home with him?
166 00:08:38,200 00:08:40,343 What evidence have you found? What evidence have you found?
167 00:08:44,626 00:08:47,060 You want us to tell his family You want us to tell his family
168 00:08:47,085 00:08:50,291 that a boy the police couldn't find for three years that a boy the police couldn't find for three years
169 00:08:50,316 00:08:52,585 was actually killed by a former copper, was actually killed by a former copper,
170 00:08:52,610 00:08:54,610 and you don't have any physical evidence?! and you don't have any physical evidence?!
171 00:08:54,635 00:08:56,595 When's he ever lied to us before? When's he ever lied to us before?
172 00:08:56,765 00:08:58,718 I've been trying to help you. I've been trying to help you.
173 00:08:58,991 00:09:02,510 Get you the money and support you need to close this case. Get you the money and support you need to close this case.
174 00:09:02,770 00:09:04,331 But you went behind my back But you went behind my back
175 00:09:04,356 00:09:07,116 and made us look like a bunch of amateurs! and made us look like a bunch of amateurs!
176 00:09:09,566 00:09:11,593 You better be right about this. You better be right about this.
177 00:09:23,287 00:09:27,105 TV REPORTER: The gruesome search continues at 195 Melrose Avenue TV REPORTER: The gruesome search continues at 195 Melrose Avenue
178 00:09:27,130 00:09:29,942 for what police now believe are dismembered remains for what police now believe are dismembered remains
179 00:09:29,967 00:09:32,880 that have been buried in the garden for three years or more. that have been buried in the garden for three years or more.
180 00:09:32,905 00:09:36,052 All day, detectives and forensic science experts All day, detectives and forensic science experts
181 00:09:36,077 00:09:39,474 have been taking the bones for examination in a laboratory. have been taking the bones for examination in a laboratory.
182 00:09:39,499 00:09:42,489 We found a small piece of the jaw We found a small piece of the jaw
183 00:09:42,514 00:09:45,514 and some teeth attached to it, in the rear garden. and some teeth attached to it, in the rear garden.
184 00:09:45,539 00:09:49,278 And this morning, they found a significant amount of human bones. And this morning, they found a significant amount of human bones.
185 00:09:54,232 00:09:57,036 Of what we've brought in, a big percentage of them Of what we've brought in, a big percentage of them
186 00:09:57,061 00:09:58,925 turned out to be animal bones. turned out to be animal bones.
187 00:09:58,950 00:10:01,481 But of those that are definitely human, But of those that are definitely human,
188 00:10:01,506 00:10:06,442 we estimate we have between eight and 20 different victims. we estimate we have between eight and 20 different victims.
189 00:10:07,861 00:10:09,580 Are any of them from Ockenden? Are any of them from Ockenden?
190 00:10:09,848 00:10:10,848 No. No.
191 00:10:11,713 00:10:15,297 But a lot of them we couldn't analyse due to fire damage. But a lot of them we couldn't analyse due to fire damage.
192 00:10:15,331 00:10:17,837 Did we manage to identify anyone from them? Did we manage to identify anyone from them?
193 00:10:17,862 00:10:19,509 I'm afraid not. I'm afraid not.
194 00:10:21,620 00:10:24,500 There must be some more tests we can do. There must be some more tests we can do.
195 00:10:24,525 00:10:27,756 Look... I know it's not the news we hoped for. Look... I know it's not the news we hoped for.
196 00:10:27,781 00:10:29,410 But it was always gonna be a long shot, But it was always gonna be a long shot,
197 00:10:29,435 00:10:31,195 considering the amount of time passed considering the amount of time passed
198 00:10:31,220 00:10:35,109 and the astute method of disposal. and the astute method of disposal.
199 00:10:37,894 00:10:41,493 I'd say we were fortunate to get Martyn Duffey. I'd say we were fortunate to get Martyn Duffey.
200 00:10:41,518 00:10:44,430 But you said there could be as many as 20? But you said there could be as many as 20?
201 00:10:44,455 00:10:47,609 Well, as I say, it's an estimate, but it's certainly a possibility. Well, as I say, it's an estimate, but it's certainly a possibility.
202 00:10:49,848 00:10:51,828 I'll give you gentlemen a minute. I'll give you gentlemen a minute.
203 00:10:51,853 00:10:53,156 Thank you. Thank you.
204 00:10:59,331 00:11:02,351 We need to re-test the headphones found at Cranley Gardens. We need to re-test the headphones found at Cranley Gardens.
205 00:11:03,086 00:11:05,585 No, Peter, all Ockenden is doing No, Peter, all Ockenden is doing
206 00:11:05,610 00:11:07,867 is sending us up a bunch of blind alleys. is sending us up a bunch of blind alleys.
207 00:11:08,814 00:11:11,694 We may need to move on from him. You heard what he said. We may need to move on from him. You heard what he said.
208 00:11:11,719 00:11:13,422 Possibly 20 victims. Possibly 20 victims.
209 00:11:14,047 00:11:17,092 Which means Nilsen may have been lying to us from the very start. Which means Nilsen may have been lying to us from the very start.
210 00:11:18,935 00:11:20,928 I'll call it in. I'll call it in.
211 00:11:30,140 00:11:32,037 I made something for you. I made something for you.
212 00:11:34,530 00:11:36,639 It's all jumbled and in no special order, It's all jumbled and in no special order,
213 00:11:36,664 00:11:38,928 but I figured, you're the artist. but I figured, you're the artist.
214 00:11:41,571 00:11:44,730 Only you know what's important and how to select it, so... Only you know what's important and how to select it, so...
215 00:11:49,051 00:11:51,014 What made you draw these? What made you draw these?
216 00:11:51,053 00:11:53,014 Nostalgia, I suppose. Nostalgia, I suppose.
217 00:11:58,597 00:12:02,459 I thought you told the police that you didn't remember your victims? I thought you told the police that you didn't remember your victims?
218 00:12:02,484 00:12:03,720 No, their names, no. No, their names, no.
219 00:12:03,745 00:12:07,304 But that doesn't mean I don't remember our time together. But that doesn't mean I don't remember our time together.
220 00:12:10,725 00:12:13,858 I took him up on maybe four occasions I took him up on maybe four occasions
221 00:12:13,883 00:12:15,998 in the following two weeks. in the following two weeks.
222 00:12:16,920 00:12:18,928 What did you do when you... What did you do when you...
223 00:12:19,857 00:12:21,295 "brought him up"? "brought him up"?
224 00:12:21,320 00:12:23,709 Well, his naked body fascinated me. Well, his naked body fascinated me.
225 00:12:23,821 00:12:27,385 I'd roll him onto his stomach, roll him onto his back. I'd roll him onto his stomach, roll him onto his back.
226 00:12:27,410 00:12:29,530 Touching him. Stroking him. Touching him. Stroking him.
227 00:12:29,555 00:12:32,092 I was thrilled that I had full control... I was thrilled that I had full control...
228 00:12:32,453 00:12:35,326 ownership over this beautiful body. ownership over this beautiful body.
229 00:12:35,351 00:12:40,730 So control was the, um... motivation? So control was the, um... motivation?
230 00:12:41,162 00:12:43,905 Well, nothing's ever about one thing, Brian. Well, nothing's ever about one thing, Brian.
231 00:12:45,213 00:12:47,068 Sometimes I'd, erm... Sometimes I'd, erm...
232 00:12:47,093 00:12:49,804 put them in the other armchair next to mine put them in the other armchair next to mine
233 00:12:49,829 00:12:51,794 while I'd watch an evening's television. while I'd watch an evening's television.
234 00:12:51,819 00:12:53,978 I'd look over and imagine what we'd be talking about, I'd look over and imagine what we'd be talking about,
235 00:12:54,003 00:12:55,279 if he could speak. if he could speak.
236 00:12:55,779 00:12:57,379 Then at other times, Then at other times,
237 00:12:57,404 00:12:59,256 you know, I couldn't actually believe this was happening, you know, I couldn't actually believe this was happening,
238 00:12:59,280 00:13:01,185 that this was my life. But, uh... that this was my life. But, uh...
239 00:13:02,588 00:13:05,091 Death gives no refunds, so... Death gives no refunds, so...
240 00:13:06,545 00:13:08,106 We spend so much time talking about me, We spend so much time talking about me,
241 00:13:08,131 00:13:10,946 but I feel I hardly know anything about you. but I feel I hardly know anything about you.
242 00:13:11,396 00:13:12,931 I don't even know if you're married. I don't even know if you're married.
243 00:13:13,574 00:13:17,957 No, no. But I do have my emotional attachments. No, no. But I do have my emotional attachments.
244 00:13:18,490 00:13:22,010 Okay. Maybe a more simpler question. Okay. Maybe a more simpler question.
245 00:13:23,529 00:13:28,105 Do you remember when you first became aware of death? Do you remember when you first became aware of death?
246 00:13:28,130 00:13:30,908 I grew up in a fishing village, Brian, so... I grew up in a fishing village, Brian, so...
247 00:13:31,602 00:13:34,281 Death surrounds you when the sea's involved. Death surrounds you when the sea's involved.
248 00:13:34,650 00:13:36,290 That and the poverty. That and the poverty.
249 00:13:37,855 00:13:41,470 I saw my grandfather's corpse when I was six year old. I saw my grandfather's corpse when I was six year old.
250 00:13:41,759 00:13:45,040 - How did he die? - At sea. He was a fisherman. - How did he die? - At sea. He was a fisherman.
251 00:13:45,451 00:13:48,370 And they brought his coffin back to the house, And they brought his coffin back to the house,
252 00:13:48,395 00:13:49,872 it was normal back then. it was normal back then.
253 00:13:49,897 00:13:53,450 And my mother, erm... And my mother, erm...
254 00:13:54,333 00:13:56,466 woke me up and said, "Do you want to see your grandad?" woke me up and said, "Do you want to see your grandad?"
255 00:13:56,490 00:13:59,075 I went into the living room and he was there, in a box. I went into the living room and he was there, in a box.
256 00:13:59,100 00:14:01,763 - How did they explain that? - Well, they didn't. - How did they explain that? - Well, they didn't.
257 00:14:02,730 00:14:04,177 You didn't know that he was dead? You didn't know that he was dead?
258 00:14:04,202 00:14:05,872 No, they just said he was sleeping. No, they just said he was sleeping.
259 00:14:05,897 00:14:09,685 After he left, the mystery of death, it always fascinated me. After he left, the mystery of death, it always fascinated me.
260 00:14:09,710 00:14:12,139 Sometimes I'd put talc on my face, Sometimes I'd put talc on my face,
261 00:14:12,515 00:14:15,705 paint my lips blue and poke my eyes paint my lips blue and poke my eyes
262 00:14:15,730 00:14:18,770 till they were bloodshot and just look in the mirror. till they were bloodshot and just look in the mirror.
263 00:14:19,666 00:14:21,655 To make yourself seem dead? To make yourself seem dead?
264 00:14:21,680 00:14:22,950 Aye. Aye.
265 00:14:22,975 00:14:25,725 And was this by yourself or... And was this by yourself or...
266 00:14:28,214 00:14:30,600 with somebody else there? with somebody else there?
267 00:14:31,197 00:14:32,516 Both. Both.
268 00:14:34,038 00:14:36,158 What would you do then? What would you do then?
269 00:14:37,108 00:14:39,460 I would just sit and stare. I would just sit and stare.
270 00:14:41,022 00:14:44,397 Imagining the abyss as I touched him. Imagining the abyss as I touched him.
271 00:14:44,422 00:14:47,030 And myself in my own dead image. And myself in my own dead image.
272 00:14:47,171 00:14:48,865 So this is about sex. So this is about sex.
273 00:14:48,890 00:14:50,960 No! You keep looking for these simple answers, No! You keep looking for these simple answers,
274 00:14:50,985 00:14:53,217 but you debase it to make it purely about that. but you debase it to make it purely about that.
275 00:14:53,242 00:14:54,820 I'm not trying to simplify anything, I'm not trying to simplify anything,
276 00:14:54,845 00:14:56,756 but you did have sex with these young men but you did have sex with these young men
277 00:14:56,781 00:14:58,936 - after they had died. - No, I did not. - after they had died. - No, I did not.
278 00:14:59,123 00:15:00,639 Did I enjoy them? Did I enjoy them?
279 00:15:00,664 00:15:02,272 Yes. Did I... Yes. Did I...
280 00:15:02,944 00:15:05,013 gain some satisfaction gain some satisfaction
281 00:15:05,038 00:15:09,385 from looking at their naked bodies next to mine in the mirror? from looking at their naked bodies next to mine in the mirror?
282 00:15:09,499 00:15:10,931 But I didn't penetrate them. But I didn't penetrate them.
283 00:15:10,971 00:15:12,931 Look, look, the wicked thing that I did Look, look, the wicked thing that I did
284 00:15:12,971 00:15:14,999 was to squeeze the life out of a human being. was to squeeze the life out of a human being.
285 00:15:15,024 00:15:17,184 That was wrong, that was unforgivable, That was wrong, that was unforgivable,
286 00:15:17,209 00:15:18,717 I will be properly punished for it. I will be properly punished for it.
287 00:15:18,742 00:15:21,105 But what I did to a corpse is neither here nor there. But what I did to a corpse is neither here nor there.
288 00:15:21,327 00:15:24,374 Brian, if you are more disgusted by what I did to a corpse Brian, if you are more disgusted by what I did to a corpse
289 00:15:24,399 00:15:26,200 than what I did to a living man, than what I did to a living man,
290 00:15:26,225 00:15:28,705 then your moral system is upside-down then your moral system is upside-down
291 00:15:28,730 00:15:30,409 and needs overhauling. and needs overhauling.
292 00:15:33,179 00:15:35,019 You're right. You're right.
293 00:15:38,404 00:15:41,725 I didn't intend to judge you. I didn't intend to judge you.
294 00:15:45,451 00:15:47,131 Let's go back to your childhood. Let's go back to your childhood.
295 00:15:47,156 00:15:48,865 Did you have many... Did you have many...
296 00:15:48,890 00:15:50,413 Any friends at school? Any friends at school?
297 00:15:50,438 00:15:52,452 I'm glad we're doing this, Brian. I'm glad we're doing this, Brian.
298 00:15:54,437 00:15:57,975 Me too. It's nice to be listened to. Me too. It's nice to be listened to.
299 00:16:00,631 00:16:02,499 Makes me feel human again. Makes me feel human again.
300 00:16:03,085 00:16:05,245 All these, treating me like a criminal. All these, treating me like a criminal.
301 00:16:05,481 00:16:07,827 Do you not consider yourself to be a criminal? Do you not consider yourself to be a criminal?
302 00:16:07,852 00:16:09,856 How I consider myself is obsolete. How I consider myself is obsolete.
303 00:16:09,881 00:16:13,345 I deserve the right to be treated as innocent until proven guilty. I deserve the right to be treated as innocent until proven guilty.
304 00:16:13,370 00:16:15,792 Not have to wear the clothes of a convicted felon Not have to wear the clothes of a convicted felon
305 00:16:15,817 00:16:17,937 whilst I wait for my day in court. whilst I wait for my day in court.
306 00:16:20,000 00:16:21,799 Surely you can see that? Surely you can see that?
307 00:16:33,311 00:16:35,589 We're sorry about the result of the dig. We're sorry about the result of the dig.
308 00:16:35,865 00:16:37,409 We all share your disappointment. We all share your disappointment.
309 00:16:37,434 00:16:40,146 Thank you. It was a blow, Thank you. It was a blow,
310 00:16:40,171 00:16:43,066 but we have other points of enquiry we're now investigating. but we have other points of enquiry we're now investigating.
311 00:16:43,487 00:16:45,175 There's been a development. There's been a development.
312 00:16:45,999 00:16:47,511 Turns out that Nilsen's been getting Turns out that Nilsen's been getting
313 00:16:47,536 00:16:49,480 regular visits from a biographer. regular visits from a biographer.
314 00:16:49,737 00:16:52,073 Apparently his letter got through the prison censors Apparently his letter got through the prison censors
315 00:16:52,098 00:16:54,426 and they'd been meeting for a number of weeks. and they'd been meeting for a number of weeks.
316 00:16:54,451 00:16:56,995 Our fear here is that it's only a matter of time Our fear here is that it's only a matter of time
317 00:16:57,020 00:16:58,995 before the victims' identities, before the victims' identities,
318 00:16:59,020 00:17:01,027 and especially one as well known as Ockenden, and especially one as well known as Ockenden,
319 00:17:01,052 00:17:02,441 become public knowledge. become public knowledge.
320 00:17:02,466 00:17:06,066 Therefore, we feel we need to inform his family. Therefore, we feel we need to inform his family.
321 00:17:06,091 00:17:09,058 We're still looking for confirmation on Ockenden, sir. We're still looking for confirmation on Ockenden, sir.
322 00:17:09,101 00:17:11,260 The only reason we've been patient up until now The only reason we've been patient up until now
323 00:17:11,285 00:17:12,558 was the hope that the dig was the hope that the dig
324 00:17:12,583 00:17:15,385 would give us something to tie Ockenden to Melrose. would give us something to tie Ockenden to Melrose.
325 00:17:15,799 00:17:16,826 But it's been a month. But it's been a month.
326 00:17:16,851 00:17:19,245 Yeah, I'm aware of that. But if we had more men Yeah, I'm aware of that. But if we had more men
327 00:17:19,270 00:17:21,670 and the word processor I've requested again and again... and the word processor I've requested again and again...
328 00:17:21,695 00:17:22,878 Peter. Peter.
329 00:17:22,903 00:17:25,651 There is nothing I would like more than to find Ken There is nothing I would like more than to find Ken
330 00:17:25,676 00:17:28,185 and to bring anyone who harmed him to justice. and to bring anyone who harmed him to justice.
331 00:17:28,210 00:17:29,800 But if we don't have any evidence But if we don't have any evidence
332 00:17:29,825 00:17:31,847 - by now... - We'll find the evidence. - by now... - We'll find the evidence.
333 00:17:33,174 00:17:35,581 I admire your confidence. I admire your confidence.
334 00:17:36,808 00:17:38,967 But this investigation is beginning to harm But this investigation is beginning to harm
335 00:17:38,992 00:17:41,714 the reputation of the Metropolitan Police. the reputation of the Metropolitan Police.
336 00:17:41,966 00:17:44,894 We've only just repaired the damage done by the riots. We've only just repaired the damage done by the riots.
337 00:17:44,919 00:17:46,625 How are we damaging its reputation? How are we damaging its reputation?
338 00:17:46,650 00:17:50,251 Because people are starting to ask why this is all taking so long. Because people are starting to ask why this is all taking so long.
339 00:17:50,276 00:17:52,058 Do you know how an investigation works? Do you know how an investigation works?
340 00:17:52,083 00:17:53,083 Peter. Peter.
341 00:17:53,698 00:17:55,480 Wait for me outside. Wait for me outside.
342 00:18:09,566 00:18:11,665 - What the hell was that? - Top brass care more - What the hell was that? - Top brass care more
343 00:18:11,690 00:18:13,650 about their reputation than finding these men. about their reputation than finding these men.
344 00:18:13,675 00:18:14,847 Oh, grow up. Oh, grow up.
345 00:18:14,872 00:18:17,323 You're not the only one who cares about this case. You're not the only one who cares about this case.
346 00:18:17,943 00:18:20,105 Let me give you some advice, Peter. Let me give you some advice, Peter.
347 00:18:20,130 00:18:22,128 Toe the fucking line! Toe the fucking line!
348 00:18:25,983 00:18:27,691 Yeah, that's fine. Yeah, that's fine.
349 00:18:27,730 00:18:29,517 No, I don't mind holding while you find out. No, I don't mind holding while you find out.
350 00:18:29,542 00:18:30,659 What's going on? What's going on?
351 00:18:30,684 00:18:32,082 Healey thinks he's got John. Healey thinks he's got John.
352 00:18:32,107 00:18:34,284 Don't bloody jinx it, Steve. Don't bloody jinx it, Steve.
353 00:18:35,348 00:18:37,213 All the guardsmen were accounted for, All the guardsmen were accounted for,
354 00:18:37,238 00:18:40,066 so we were screwed, basically. Back to square one. so we were screwed, basically. Back to square one.
355 00:18:40,292 00:18:41,894 I went to see the West End branch, I went to see the West End branch,
356 00:18:41,919 00:18:43,826 asked them if they knew any Johns asked them if they knew any Johns
357 00:18:43,851 00:18:45,667 from High Wycombe that frequented Soho. from High Wycombe that frequented Soho.
358 00:18:45,692 00:18:48,964 After giving me a load of grief about the Ockenden case, After giving me a load of grief about the Ockenden case,
359 00:18:49,320 00:18:51,089 they threw me a name. they threw me a name.
360 00:18:52,071 00:18:53,644 John Howlett. John Howlett.
361 00:18:53,854 00:18:57,394 A ne'er-do-well, in and out of different homes as a kid, A ne'er-do-well, in and out of different homes as a kid,
362 00:18:57,419 00:18:59,269 well-known on the streets of Soho. well-known on the streets of Soho.
363 00:18:59,514 00:19:01,814 - Sound familiar? - Yeah. - Sound familiar? - Yeah.
364 00:19:01,839 00:19:05,018 Now we're just checking the blood type from the remains in Cranley. Now we're just checking the blood type from the remains in Cranley.
365 00:19:05,534 00:19:06,706 Okay. Okay.
366 00:19:06,731 00:19:09,011 I think we deserve a bit of luck, don't you? I think we deserve a bit of luck, don't you?
367 00:19:09,830 00:19:11,270 Yes. Yes.
368 00:19:12,164 00:19:13,725 Yep. Yep.
369 00:19:15,539 00:19:17,964 Okay. Thanks. Okay. Thanks.
370 00:19:20,410 00:19:21,771 We got a match. We got a match.
371 00:19:23,901 00:19:25,807 Great work, Chris! Great work, Chris!
372 00:19:25,832 00:19:28,072 Why do you think Nilsen said he was a guardsman? Why do you think Nilsen said he was a guardsman?
373 00:19:28,659 00:19:30,291 I've got no idea. I've got no idea.
374 00:19:31,174 00:19:33,627 First round's on me! You coming? First round's on me! You coming?
375 00:19:33,652 00:19:35,773 I'll be there in a bit. I'll be there in a bit.
376 00:19:35,798 00:19:37,678 I've just gotta finish up here first. I've just gotta finish up here first.
377 00:20:02,011 00:20:04,073 Thought you were all down the pub. Thought you were all down the pub.
378 00:20:05,541 00:20:07,135 You, uh... You, uh...
379 00:20:07,479 00:20:09,221 looking for anything in particular? looking for anything in particular?
380 00:20:09,245 00:20:10,605 Kenneth Ockenden. Kenneth Ockenden.
381 00:20:10,630 00:20:13,151 You're not gonna find him there, that's the Cranley Gardens log. You're not gonna find him there, that's the Cranley Gardens log.
382 00:20:13,840 00:20:16,728 - Did we fingerprint the camera? - We did. - Did we fingerprint the camera? - We did.
383 00:20:16,753 00:20:18,198 What about the books we found? What about the books we found?
384 00:20:18,441 00:20:20,041 Yep, all the covers. Yep, all the covers.
385 00:20:20,066 00:20:21,454 But not the pages? But not the pages?
386 00:20:21,479 00:20:23,106 How do you touch pages and not the covers? How do you touch pages and not the covers?
387 00:20:23,130 00:20:25,144 There's just a few books that might give us something that... There's just a few books that might give us something that...
388 00:20:25,168 00:20:27,293 The photography book, the London guide, things like that. The photography book, the London guide, things like that.
389 00:20:27,317 00:20:28,940 The A to Z. The A to Z.
390 00:20:31,097 00:20:33,057 Guv, is this a good use of time? Guv, is this a good use of time?
391 00:20:38,425 00:20:40,146 I'll see what I can do. I'll see what I can do.
392 00:21:08,989 00:21:10,526 Can he harm us? Can he harm us?
393 00:21:11,073 00:21:12,643 I don't see how. I don't see how.
394 00:21:13,057 00:21:15,081 What do you think they talk about? What do you think they talk about?
395 00:21:15,402 00:21:17,306 I don't even wanna know. I don't even wanna know.
396 00:21:17,448 00:21:19,811 Guv. Woman at the front desk, Guv. Woman at the front desk,
397 00:21:19,836 00:21:21,987 thinks her ex-partner might be a possible victim. thinks her ex-partner might be a possible victim.
398 00:21:22,012 00:21:23,691 Cheers, Chris. Cheers, Chris.
399 00:21:23,800 00:21:25,682 Yeah, he's on his way down. Yeah, he's on his way down.
400 00:21:26,112 00:21:27,307 Great. Great.
401 00:21:28,010 00:21:30,401 He went missing about a year ago. He went missing about a year ago.
402 00:21:32,362 00:21:35,443 Last time I saw him, he came round to the house. Last time I saw him, he came round to the house.
403 00:21:35,686 00:21:37,366 We'd been separated a few months, We'd been separated a few months,
404 00:21:37,391 00:21:39,466 said he wanted to spend more time with Shane. said he wanted to spend more time with Shane.
405 00:21:39,878 00:21:41,650 But I knew he was just there for the money, But I knew he was just there for the money,
406 00:21:41,675 00:21:43,667 so he could go down to Soho and score. so he could go down to Soho and score.
407 00:21:44,925 00:21:48,125 We... had an argument that day and he left. We... had an argument that day and he left.
408 00:21:48,150 00:21:50,187 I know I haven't seen him since. I know I haven't seen him since.
409 00:21:50,453 00:21:54,555 A week after that, he had a court date, which he missed. A week after that, he had a court date, which he missed.
410 00:21:55,545 00:21:58,026 And he always attended court, no matter what. And he always attended court, no matter what.
411 00:21:58,413 00:21:59,959 So I went down to the job centre, So I went down to the job centre,
412 00:21:59,984 00:22:01,110 they told me he hadn't signed on. they told me he hadn't signed on.
413 00:22:01,134 00:22:02,483 So then I rang his solicitor, So then I rang his solicitor,
414 00:22:02,508 00:22:05,331 and they told me to wait a while and that he'd show up. and they told me to wait a while and that he'd show up.
415 00:22:05,877 00:22:07,695 But I knew. But I knew.
416 00:22:08,491 00:22:10,640 And then I saw you on the news, And then I saw you on the news,
417 00:22:10,665 00:22:12,609 and even though I know Graham wasn't bent, and even though I know Graham wasn't bent,
418 00:22:12,634 00:22:15,695 just something kept turning in my gut. just something kept turning in my gut.
419 00:22:15,720 00:22:18,101 Not all of his victims were gay. Not all of his victims were gay.
420 00:22:18,211 00:22:21,328 Some just needed a bed or some food. Some just needed a bed or some food.
421 00:22:24,712 00:22:26,386 Do you have a photo? Do you have a photo?
422 00:22:27,105 00:22:28,386 Yeah. Yeah.
423 00:22:30,949 00:22:32,660 This. This.
424 00:22:36,990 00:22:39,128 So, he had a criminal record? So, he had a criminal record?
425 00:22:39,331 00:22:40,667 Of course. Of course.
426 00:22:41,863 00:22:43,387 He almost wore it as a badge of honour, He almost wore it as a badge of honour,
427 00:22:43,411 00:22:45,308 you know, him against the system. you know, him against the system.
428 00:22:46,695 00:22:48,816 I just need to know what happened. I just need to know what happened.
429 00:22:50,716 00:22:54,019 I know he's been a bit of a shit, but... I know he's been a bit of a shit, but...
430 00:22:54,734 00:22:56,295 he's Shane's dad. he's Shane's dad.
431 00:22:59,825 00:23:02,339 DCI Peter Jay to see Dennis Nilsen. DCI Peter Jay to see Dennis Nilsen.
432 00:23:19,650 00:23:21,566 I need you to identify some photos. I need you to identify some photos.
433 00:23:21,591 00:23:22,591 How's Bleep? How's Bleep?
434 00:23:23,491 00:23:24,707 Well, you made it pretty busy for me Well, you made it pretty busy for me
435 00:23:24,731 00:23:26,480 the last time I was here, Des. the last time I was here, Des.
436 00:23:27,553 00:23:30,003 Haven't had a chance to find out about your dog. Haven't had a chance to find out about your dog.
437 00:23:34,047 00:23:38,222 Graham Allen and John Howlett, AKA John the Guardsman. Graham Allen and John Howlett, AKA John the Guardsman.
438 00:23:38,247 00:23:40,597 Although he wasn't a guardsman, was he? Although he wasn't a guardsman, was he?
439 00:23:41,190 00:23:42,585 He was just another young man, He was just another young man,
440 00:23:42,610 00:23:44,675 finding his way on the streets of Soho. finding his way on the streets of Soho.
441 00:23:45,129 00:23:47,519 I am sick of helping people I am sick of helping people
442 00:23:47,544 00:23:49,980 who take advantage of my good nature. who take advantage of my good nature.
443 00:23:51,081 00:23:53,003 I am deserving of some more balance. I am deserving of some more balance.
444 00:23:53,028 00:23:54,956 What, like with your biographer? What, like with your biographer?
445 00:23:59,690 00:24:01,542 Did you kill these men? Did you kill these men?
446 00:24:04,427 00:24:07,227 How many people did you kill in Melrose Avenue? How many people did you kill in Melrose Avenue?
447 00:24:08,448 00:24:10,949 Did you kill Kenneth Ockenden? Did you kill Kenneth Ockenden?
448 00:24:11,185 00:24:13,908 If I hadn't wanted you to, you wouldn't have found me. If I hadn't wanted you to, you wouldn't have found me.
449 00:24:13,933 00:24:15,586 - So why would I lie to you now? - Look at the photos. - So why would I lie to you now? - Look at the photos.
450 00:24:15,610 00:24:17,635 I've been convicted of no crimes as of yet, I've been convicted of no crimes as of yet,
451 00:24:17,660 00:24:20,105 therefore I am innocent until proven guilty. therefore I am innocent until proven guilty.
452 00:24:20,130 00:24:21,131 Where is this coming from? Where is this coming from?
453 00:24:21,155 00:24:23,167 In Category A, like some kind of dangerous criminal... In Category A, like some kind of dangerous criminal...
454 00:24:23,191 00:24:26,222 Look at the photos and tell me if you killed these men... Look at the photos and tell me if you killed these men...
455 00:24:26,489 00:24:28,855 - Des! - I'm your only witness! - Des! - I'm your only witness!
456 00:24:34,507 00:24:38,230 This man has a seven-year-old son. This man has a seven-year-old son.
457 00:24:40,133 00:24:43,550 Do the right thing, and look at the fucking photos. Do the right thing, and look at the fucking photos.
458 00:24:51,531 00:24:53,667 Did you kill this man? Did you kill this man?
459 00:24:59,261 00:25:01,182 No comment. No comment.
460 00:25:22,160 00:25:24,277 Detective Chief Inspector Peter Jay. Detective Chief Inspector Peter Jay.
461 00:25:24,302 00:25:25,472 Brian Masters. Brian Masters.
462 00:25:25,497 00:25:27,808 - Drink? - No, thank you. - Drink? - No, thank you.
463 00:25:36,846 00:25:38,128 You found it all right, then? You found it all right, then?
464 00:25:38,153 00:25:40,353 - Oh, yes, no trouble at all. - Good. - Oh, yes, no trouble at all. - Good.
465 00:25:46,872 00:25:51,003 So, how long have you been writing? So, how long have you been writing?
466 00:25:51,501 00:25:53,980 About 15 years. You? About 15 years. You?
467 00:25:54,005 00:25:56,589 I mean, how long have you been a policeman? I mean, how long have you been a policeman?
468 00:25:56,614 00:25:58,331 Nearly 23 years. Nearly 23 years.
469 00:25:59,943 00:26:03,183 How many books have you written about people like Nilsen? How many books have you written about people like Nilsen?
470 00:26:03,208 00:26:05,714 Well, this is my first. Well, this is my first.
471 00:26:06,441 00:26:09,542 Then, let me give you some advice. Then, let me give you some advice.
472 00:26:11,127 00:26:12,628 Walk away. Walk away.
473 00:26:12,653 00:26:15,737 Well, with all due respect, Mr Jay, Well, with all due respect, Mr Jay,
474 00:26:15,762 00:26:18,870 I'm... I didn't approach this naively. I'm... I didn't approach this naively.
475 00:26:18,895 00:26:20,519 Well, why approach it at all? Well, why approach it at all?
476 00:26:21,148 00:26:24,675 I mean, you think you can understand these things he did? I mean, you think you can understand these things he did?
477 00:26:24,700 00:26:28,988 I'm not sure that understanding is useful here. I'm not sure that understanding is useful here.
478 00:26:29,013 00:26:31,753 The term is emotional and more often than not, The term is emotional and more often than not,
479 00:26:31,778 00:26:33,035 it leads us to answers it leads us to answers
480 00:26:33,060 00:26:35,779 that are indicative of our own prejudices. that are indicative of our own prejudices.
481 00:26:35,842 00:26:39,949 It's not about understanding, it's about comprehending. It's not about understanding, it's about comprehending.
482 00:26:39,974 00:26:41,613 Isn't that the same thing? Isn't that the same thing?
483 00:26:43,401 00:26:47,261 Humans kill. It's in our nature. Humans kill. It's in our nature.
484 00:26:47,489 00:26:51,058 Out of fits of rage or jealousy, or self-defence. Out of fits of rage or jealousy, or self-defence.
485 00:26:51,083 00:26:56,535 But to kill so many men without any real reason... But to kill so many men without any real reason...
486 00:26:56,560 00:26:59,097 I think it's important that we try I think it's important that we try
487 00:26:59,122 00:27:02,324 to comprehend why this happened, to comprehend why this happened,
488 00:27:02,349 00:27:05,636 and how this person came to pass. and how this person came to pass.
489 00:27:06,852 00:27:08,251 I need you to tell us I need you to tell us
490 00:27:08,276 00:27:11,378 everything that Nilsen's told you about the identities of his victims. everything that Nilsen's told you about the identities of his victims.
491 00:27:11,650 00:27:15,808 Well, I don't have any more information than you already have. Well, I don't have any more information than you already have.
492 00:27:15,833 00:27:17,628 Well, you've been talking for months. Well, you've been talking for months.
493 00:27:18,413 00:27:20,589 We talk about other things. We talk about other things.
494 00:27:20,614 00:27:23,035 - Such as? - His childhood. - Such as? - His childhood.
495 00:27:23,060 00:27:24,740 His time in the army. His time in the army.
496 00:27:24,765 00:27:27,355 - Was he killing in the army? - No. - Was he killing in the army? - No.
497 00:27:27,946 00:27:30,191 How often have you been visiting him? How often have you been visiting him?
498 00:27:30,216 00:27:31,896 Once or twice a week. Once or twice a week.
499 00:27:31,921 00:27:34,183 - When's the last time you saw him? - Four days ago. - When's the last time you saw him? - Four days ago.
500 00:27:34,450 00:27:36,636 And, he wrote to you? And, he wrote to you?
501 00:27:36,823 00:27:38,343 No, I wrote to him. No, I wrote to him.
502 00:27:40,180 00:27:43,340 I'm not really sure why we're here. I'm not really sure why we're here.
503 00:27:46,512 00:27:49,488 Nilsen is no longer helping us with our investigation. Nilsen is no longer helping us with our investigation.
504 00:27:51,047 00:27:52,583 Since when? Since when?
505 00:27:52,608 00:27:54,341 What, he didn't tell you? What, he didn't tell you?
506 00:27:56,296 00:27:58,411 Has he even mentioned Kenneth Ockenden? Has he even mentioned Kenneth Ockenden?
507 00:27:58,436 00:28:01,091 - Did he kill Kenneth Ockenden? - I didn't say that. - Did he kill Kenneth Ockenden? - I didn't say that.
508 00:28:04,908 00:28:08,380 If he mentions any names, you have a duty to report them to us. If he mentions any names, you have a duty to report them to us.
509 00:28:09,742 00:28:11,599 Oh, it's not as simple as that. Oh, it's not as simple as that.
510 00:28:11,624 00:28:14,304 Perverting the course of justice is very simple. Perverting the course of justice is very simple.
511 00:28:17,511 00:28:18,614 If you are suggesting If you are suggesting
512 00:28:18,639 00:28:21,614 that I had anything to do with his retracting his cooperation, that I had anything to do with his retracting his cooperation,
513 00:28:21,639 00:28:24,079 then you are gravely mistaken, Mr Jay. then you are gravely mistaken, Mr Jay.
514 00:28:27,176 00:28:29,950 And if you wish to take this conversation any further, And if you wish to take this conversation any further,
515 00:28:29,975 00:28:33,450 then maybe I should telephone my solicitor. then maybe I should telephone my solicitor.
516 00:28:37,091 00:28:39,216 If you wanted to write a book about Nilsen, If you wanted to write a book about Nilsen,
517 00:28:39,241 00:28:40,943 you should have come to us first. you should have come to us first.
518 00:28:41,474 00:28:43,489 We'd have given you the real story. We'd have given you the real story.
519 00:28:44,081 00:28:47,361 But you're all so fucking fascinated by him, aren't you? But you're all so fucking fascinated by him, aren't you?
520 00:28:54,600 00:28:56,800 - Afternoon. - Good afternoon. - Afternoon. - Good afternoon.
521 00:29:12,567 00:29:14,919 Ever since I've come to this hell on earth, Ever since I've come to this hell on earth,
522 00:29:14,944 00:29:18,305 I have been disrespected, abused, humiliated. I have been disrespected, abused, humiliated.
523 00:29:18,330 00:29:21,060 I have done nothing but help an investigation, I have done nothing but help an investigation,
524 00:29:21,085 00:29:23,302 for which I have not yet been convicted. for which I have not yet been convicted.
525 00:29:23,327 00:29:25,450 Nobody cares about my years of public service, Nobody cares about my years of public service,
526 00:29:25,475 00:29:27,747 my work with the unions, that goes unnoticed. my work with the unions, that goes unnoticed.
527 00:29:27,772 00:29:29,931 Why didn't you mention Kenneth Ockenden? Why didn't you mention Kenneth Ockenden?
528 00:29:30,304 00:29:32,349 You've spoken to Mr Jay, I see. You've spoken to Mr Jay, I see.
529 00:29:32,374 00:29:34,054 Yes. He contacted me. Yes. He contacted me.
530 00:29:36,267 00:29:38,148 Yeah. Yeah.
531 00:29:40,840 00:29:43,622 I didn't mention Ken cos he's the one I regret. I didn't mention Ken cos he's the one I regret.
532 00:29:44,006 00:29:46,153 The day we spent together was so happy. The day we spent together was so happy.
533 00:29:46,178 00:29:47,982 The happiest I'd been all year. The happiest I'd been all year.
534 00:29:48,007 00:29:51,385 Unlike the others, his death was a kind of... cruel and Unlike the others, his death was a kind of... cruel and
535 00:29:51,410 00:29:54,107 horrid parody of what could've been. horrid parody of what could've been.
536 00:29:55,811 00:29:58,854 Well, do you not feel any guilt or remorse? Well, do you not feel any guilt or remorse?
537 00:29:58,879 00:29:59,879 Why? Why?
538 00:30:00,994 00:30:04,259 They live with me in my cell, Brian. They live with me in my cell, Brian.
539 00:30:05,343 00:30:06,623 All of them. All of them.
540 00:30:06,648 00:30:09,689 How can I feel remorse when I have taken those pains into myself? How can I feel remorse when I have taken those pains into myself?
541 00:30:09,714 00:30:11,353 That's obscene. That's obscene.
542 00:30:11,884 00:30:14,181 Look, I'd give anything for any one of them Look, I'd give anything for any one of them
543 00:30:14,206 00:30:16,579 to walk in here right now and shoot me dead. to walk in here right now and shoot me dead.
544 00:30:16,604 00:30:19,332 But the sad fact is they had to die But the sad fact is they had to die
545 00:30:19,357 00:30:21,152 to get attention for their plights. to get attention for their plights.
546 00:30:21,177 00:30:24,285 Because the public pious aftercare comes too late. Because the public pious aftercare comes too late.
547 00:30:24,310 00:30:26,996 And when this is all over, the Des Nilsens, And when this is all over, the Des Nilsens,
548 00:30:27,111 00:30:30,043 and the Stephen Sinclairs and the Martyn Duffeys of this world and the Stephen Sinclairs and the Martyn Duffeys of this world
549 00:30:30,068 00:30:33,629 will still stagger along, unnoticed and alone, will still stagger along, unnoticed and alone,
550 00:30:33,654 00:30:38,199 because society is more interested in death than it is in life. because society is more interested in death than it is in life.
551 00:30:38,224 00:30:40,340 These people that you mention... These people that you mention...
552 00:30:40,933 00:30:43,340 they weren't Kenneth Ockenden. they weren't Kenneth Ockenden.
553 00:30:43,365 00:30:44,449 You say so yourself. You say so yourself.
554 00:30:44,474 00:30:48,269 So what was it that made you kill Kenneth Ockenden? So what was it that made you kill Kenneth Ockenden?
555 00:30:48,835 00:30:50,235 He was... He was...
556 00:30:52,380 00:30:54,254 They were all my type. They were all my type.
557 00:30:54,978 00:30:56,629 Simple as that? Simple as that?
558 00:30:58,891 00:31:01,433 I once strangled and drowned a young man. I once strangled and drowned a young man.
559 00:31:01,458 00:31:03,691 And then, when he was lying on the bed, And then, when he was lying on the bed,
560 00:31:03,716 00:31:06,894 I noticed Bleep licking his face. I noticed Bleep licking his face.
561 00:31:06,919 00:31:08,439 He was still alive. He was still alive.
562 00:31:09,477 00:31:11,230 So I resuscitated him. So I resuscitated him.
563 00:31:11,327 00:31:13,308 And he was very confused when he came to, And he was very confused when he came to,
564 00:31:13,333 00:31:14,957 he didn't know what had happened. he didn't know what had happened.
565 00:31:15,515 00:31:17,840 And he was there for days, me taking care of him. And he was there for days, me taking care of him.
566 00:31:17,865 00:31:20,136 And then, when he was well enough to leave, And then, when he was well enough to leave,
567 00:31:20,161 00:31:24,105 I took him up to Highgate Station and we arranged to meet again, I took him up to Highgate Station and we arranged to meet again,
568 00:31:24,130 00:31:25,370 the week after. the week after.
569 00:31:25,410 00:31:28,472 Well, the week after came and went, and he never came back. Well, the week after came and went, and he never came back.
570 00:31:29,584 00:31:31,722 Perhaps he should've stayed in my flat. Perhaps he should've stayed in my flat.
571 00:31:34,579 00:31:38,715 The thought of them leaving triggered the impulse? The thought of them leaving triggered the impulse?
572 00:31:38,740 00:31:40,222 Everybody leaves. Everybody leaves.
573 00:31:40,247 00:31:43,902 Friends, colleagues, boyfriends, they all disappear eventually. Friends, colleagues, boyfriends, they all disappear eventually.
574 00:31:43,930 00:31:47,379 My grandfather, my great hero and protector, My grandfather, my great hero and protector,
575 00:31:47,404 00:31:49,754 was the only person that I ever loved. was the only person that I ever loved.
576 00:31:50,923 00:31:54,441 Seeing my grandfather in that box... Seeing my grandfather in that box...
577 00:31:55,938 00:31:57,857 all my troubles started there. all my troubles started there.
578 00:31:58,055 00:32:01,351 See, it blighted my personality permanently. See, it blighted my personality permanently.
579 00:32:01,376 00:32:03,257 That's why I did all these things. That's why I did all these things.
580 00:32:03,453 00:32:05,679 That and the booze and the music. That and the booze and the music.
581 00:32:06,187 00:32:11,359 It whipped me up into a sort of frenzied fantasy, It whipped me up into a sort of frenzied fantasy,
582 00:32:11,384 00:32:13,384 that brought the devil and the darkness. that brought the devil and the darkness.
583 00:32:13,409 00:32:15,242 But without that, I'm harmless. But without that, I'm harmless.
584 00:32:15,267 00:32:18,359 No, Des, no. It is not your place No, Des, no. It is not your place
585 00:32:18,384 00:32:23,023 to make objective reasons why you did these things. to make objective reasons why you did these things.
586 00:32:23,048 00:32:25,568 Especially with this spurious logic. Especially with this spurious logic.
587 00:32:26,051 00:32:27,554 Whose place is it then? Is it yours? Whose place is it then? Is it yours?
588 00:32:27,579 00:32:29,624 No, this book cannot be No, this book cannot be
589 00:32:29,649 00:32:34,476 a subjective look at your life and, and your, your actions. a subjective look at your life and, and your, your actions.
590 00:32:34,508 00:32:37,256 We both of us, we must remain objective. We both of us, we must remain objective.
591 00:32:37,635 00:32:39,635 And if there are any lessons to be learned, And if there are any lessons to be learned,
592 00:32:39,660 00:32:43,538 it is up to the reader to decide, not us. it is up to the reader to decide, not us.
593 00:32:43,563 00:32:47,367 All these ruminations and hypotheses might be helpful to you, All these ruminations and hypotheses might be helpful to you,
594 00:32:47,392 00:32:50,968 but... it can't be the end of the road. but... it can't be the end of the road.
595 00:32:51,807 00:32:54,617 That's not what I'm here for. That's not what I'm here for.
596 00:32:58,418 00:32:59,983 Brian, would you do me a kindness? Brian, would you do me a kindness?
597 00:33:00,008 00:33:01,587 I need to find out about my dog. I need to find out about my dog.
598 00:33:01,612 00:33:03,051 Could you do that for me? Could you do that for me?
599 00:33:07,963 00:33:10,609 Yes, I'll see what I can do. Yes, I'll see what I can do.
600 00:33:23,698 00:33:26,445 Peter. Gotta come and see this. Peter. Gotta come and see this.
601 00:33:34,361 00:33:35,913 - Brian? - Guv. - Brian? - Guv.
602 00:33:35,938 00:33:39,320 We've got a partial print off the A-Z which ain't Nilsen's. We've got a partial print off the A-Z which ain't Nilsen's.
603 00:33:39,591 00:33:41,351 Looks like Ockenden's. Looks like Ockenden's.
604 00:33:42,618 00:33:44,138 You sure? You sure?
605 00:33:58,939 00:34:01,219 Hell of a hunch, guv. Hell of a hunch, guv.
606 00:34:31,185 00:34:33,359 Ah. Thank you. Ah. Thank you.
607 00:34:33,384 00:34:35,726 Peter, this is Commander Lockwood. Peter, this is Commander Lockwood.
608 00:34:35,761 00:34:38,429 - You know Russell. - Good to meet you, sir. - You know Russell. - Good to meet you, sir.
609 00:34:39,087 00:34:41,287 Peter, I'd like to congratulate you. Peter, I'd like to congratulate you.
610 00:34:41,389 00:34:44,546 Although we were all understandably sceptical at first, Although we were all understandably sceptical at first,
611 00:34:44,793 00:34:48,132 Ockenden is a huge weight off this force. Ockenden is a huge weight off this force.
612 00:34:48,157 00:34:49,484 Thank you, sir. Thank you, sir.
613 00:34:49,509 00:34:51,585 It wasn't the easiest one for us, but it... It wasn't the easiest one for us, but it...
614 00:34:51,610 00:34:52,844 shows we're getting through it. shows we're getting through it.
615 00:34:52,868 00:34:55,492 Well, obviously these things can't last forever. Well, obviously these things can't last forever.
616 00:34:55,517 00:34:59,077 And upstairs feel that confirming Ockenden And upstairs feel that confirming Ockenden
617 00:34:59,102 00:35:02,210 is a natural place to wrap things up. is a natural place to wrap things up.
618 00:35:02,235 00:35:04,474 Therefore, a decision has been made. Therefore, a decision has been made.
619 00:35:04,499 00:35:07,585 We're going to charge him with six murders We're going to charge him with six murders
620 00:35:07,811 00:35:09,530 and bring the investigation to a close. and bring the investigation to a close.
621 00:35:09,570 00:35:10,833 Sir... Sir...
622 00:35:11,717 00:35:13,857 If I may, I think this is a mistake. If I may, I think this is a mistake.
623 00:35:13,882 00:35:17,341 We have leads which I'm sure will bring us more names. We have leads which I'm sure will bring us more names.
624 00:35:17,366 00:35:19,724 A woman called Lesley Mead has come forward. A woman called Lesley Mead has come forward.
625 00:35:19,749 00:35:21,818 We suspect her ex-partner might be a victim... We suspect her ex-partner might be a victim...
626 00:35:21,843 00:35:23,029 Detective. Detective.
627 00:35:23,054 00:35:27,091 We have spent a fortune on your team's overtime alone. We have spent a fortune on your team's overtime alone.
628 00:35:27,116 00:35:29,513 Six murders. He never gets out. Six murders. He never gets out.
629 00:35:29,538 00:35:31,059 Charging him with six is a joke... Charging him with six is a joke...
630 00:35:31,084 00:35:32,084 - Peter. - No, but guv... - Peter. - No, but guv...
631 00:35:32,109 00:35:35,513 - The decision has been made. - Please, sir, if I may. - The decision has been made. - Please, sir, if I may.
632 00:35:35,538 00:35:37,505 There are at least nine families There are at least nine families
633 00:35:37,530 00:35:39,240 who will never get closure if we stop now. who will never get closure if we stop now.
634 00:35:39,265 00:35:42,169 We just need more time and we'll find all 15, I'm sure of it. We just need more time and we'll find all 15, I'm sure of it.
635 00:35:42,194 00:35:45,193 But we're not even sure he killed 15, are we? But we're not even sure he killed 15, are we?
636 00:35:45,366 00:35:47,333 And now that he's stopped talking to us, And now that he's stopped talking to us,
637 00:35:47,358 00:35:49,038 perhaps we'll never know. perhaps we'll never know.
638 00:35:49,573 00:35:53,293 No. It's time for you and your team to move on, Peter. No. It's time for you and your team to move on, Peter.
639 00:35:55,274 00:35:58,435 I'm sure your families will be very happy to see you. I'm sure your families will be very happy to see you.
640 00:36:18,748 00:36:20,310 Can I, erm... Can I, erm...
641 00:36:20,335 00:36:22,474 can I have everybody's attention? can I have everybody's attention?
642 00:36:25,070 00:36:27,430 Scotland Yard have just given the order to shut us down Scotland Yard have just given the order to shut us down
643 00:36:27,455 00:36:29,404 and to charge him with the six we've got. and to charge him with the six we've got.
644 00:36:35,811 00:36:38,251 I can't tell you how proud I am of this team. I can't tell you how proud I am of this team.
645 00:36:39,629 00:36:42,589 And of the work that we've done together over the past four months. And of the work that we've done together over the past four months.
646 00:36:44,050 00:36:45,811 The six we found... The six we found...
647 00:36:47,545 00:36:48,870 Well, that's the kind of police work Well, that's the kind of police work
648 00:36:48,894 00:36:51,026 you can't just do from behind a desk. you can't just do from behind a desk.
649 00:36:52,804 00:36:54,815 You're a credit to yourselves... You're a credit to yourselves...
650 00:36:55,628 00:36:57,151 and each other. and each other.
651 00:37:00,608 00:37:02,327 Thank you. Thank you.
652 00:37:24,587 00:37:27,190 Nilsen, a 37-year-old civil servant, Nilsen, a 37-year-old civil servant,
653 00:37:27,215 00:37:29,963 was arrested and charged after human remains were discovered was arrested and charged after human remains were discovered
654 00:37:29,988 00:37:32,752 at two properties in North London. at two properties in North London.
655 00:37:32,777 00:37:34,338 He has now been committed to trial He has now been committed to trial
656 00:37:34,363 00:37:37,526 for six charges of murder and two attempted murders. for six charges of murder and two attempted murders.
657 00:37:37,824 00:37:41,416 The former police officer is due to appear in court later this week, The former police officer is due to appear in court later this week,
658 00:37:41,441 00:37:45,242 where he is expected to plead guilty on all charges. where he is expected to plead guilty on all charges.
659 00:37:51,960 00:37:53,960 [DOOR BELL] [DOOR BELL]
660 00:38:01,985 00:38:03,260 Peter. Peter.
661 00:38:04,698 00:38:06,190 Steve! Steve!
662 00:38:06,611 00:38:08,977 - Can I get you anything? - No, I'm fine. Thank you. - Can I get you anything? - No, I'm fine. Thank you.
663 00:38:09,002 00:38:11,274 - I'll leave you to be. - Thanks, love. - I'll leave you to be. - Thanks, love.
664 00:38:11,299 00:38:12,657 How have you been? How have you been?
665 00:38:13,080 00:38:14,743 Yeah, not bad. Yeah, not bad.
666 00:38:15,821 00:38:18,399 - What have you got? - It's about the Nilsen case. - What have you got? - It's about the Nilsen case.
667 00:38:18,424 00:38:20,985 Of the remains found in Cranley Gardens, Of the remains found in Cranley Gardens,
668 00:38:21,010 00:38:22,890 one of the jaw bones had scars one of the jaw bones had scars
669 00:38:22,930 00:38:25,672 on both sides of the jaw due to a fracture. on both sides of the jaw due to a fracture.
670 00:38:26,122 00:38:27,649 Take a seat, mate. Take a seat, mate.
671 00:38:27,674 00:38:29,524 Graham Allen had his jaw broke in a fight. Graham Allen had his jaw broke in a fight.
672 00:38:29,549 00:38:31,069 It's in his record. It's in his record.
673 00:38:31,601 00:38:33,762 That doesn't necessarily mean it's Allen. That doesn't necessarily mean it's Allen.
674 00:38:33,794 00:38:36,354 So, Bowen goes to Allen's odontologist. So, Bowen goes to Allen's odontologist.
675 00:38:36,386 00:38:39,212 Finds a denture that he had made, but never picked up. Finds a denture that he had made, but never picked up.
676 00:38:39,237 00:38:40,720 It fit the jaw. It fit the jaw.
677 00:38:40,745 00:38:43,265 Graham Allen is the third victim of Cranley Gardens. Graham Allen is the third victim of Cranley Gardens.
678 00:38:48,950 00:38:51,189 When he came round to the house that day... When he came round to the house that day...
679 00:38:53,526 00:38:56,120 The last thing that I said to him was... The last thing that I said to him was...
680 00:38:58,221 00:39:00,936 "I hope that you never come back." "I hope that you never come back."
681 00:39:03,429 00:39:05,869 He'd have known you didn't mean that. He'd have known you didn't mean that.
682 00:39:06,393 00:39:07,726 Would he...? Would he...?
683 00:39:07,921 00:39:09,304 Sorry. Sorry.
684 00:39:11,319 00:39:13,069 [SHE SOBS] [SHE SOBS]
685 00:39:14,140 00:39:15,999 Would he have... Would he have...
686 00:39:17,086 00:39:18,952 felt any pain? felt any pain?
687 00:39:19,711 00:39:21,640 I don't think so. I don't think so.
688 00:39:22,794 00:39:24,595 Okay. Okay.
689 00:39:27,809 00:39:29,827 Lesley, erm... Lesley, erm...
690 00:39:32,909 00:39:36,349 You know we've already charged Nilsen. You know we've already charged Nilsen.
691 00:39:36,428 00:39:39,388 That indictment's already been written up and processed. That indictment's already been written up and processed.
692 00:39:43,065 00:39:44,705 What are you saying? What are you saying?
693 00:39:50,367 00:39:53,788 We can't add Graham's name to the list of Nilsen's victims. We can't add Graham's name to the list of Nilsen's victims.
694 00:39:59,793 00:40:02,135 But you just said that he killed him. But you just said that he killed him.
695 00:40:02,160 00:40:03,370 No, he did. No, he did.
696 00:40:03,684 00:40:06,690 But the court has a time limit to add names, But the court has a time limit to add names,
697 00:40:07,830 00:40:10,206 and that passed a few days ago. and that passed a few days ago.
698 00:40:21,771 00:40:24,451 [SHE STAMMERS] [SHE STAMMERS]
699 00:40:24,476 00:40:27,346 So Graham doesn't get any justice? So Graham doesn't get any justice?
700 00:40:28,770 00:40:30,690 I'm afraid not. I'm afraid not.
701 00:40:32,206 00:40:34,245 [SNIFFS] [SNIFFS]
702 00:40:38,881 00:40:40,321 [DOOR SLAMS] [DOOR SLAMS]
703 00:40:44,452 00:40:46,487 Guv called me when I was on leave. Guv called me when I was on leave.
704 00:40:47,964 00:40:48,964 He said that our squad He said that our squad
705 00:40:48,989 00:40:51,828 was being seriously considered for a commendation. was being seriously considered for a commendation.
706 00:40:51,985 00:40:54,145 I think he thought it would make me feel better. I think he thought it would make me feel better.
707 00:40:54,170 00:40:56,170 But all it did was make me more angry. But all it did was make me more angry.
708 00:40:59,398 00:41:02,096 You got, uh, two kids, right? You got, uh, two kids, right?
709 00:41:02,121 00:41:04,277 Sorry, Steve, I mean, I should know that. Sorry, Steve, I mean, I should know that.
710 00:41:04,424 00:41:07,573 Four. Two boys, two girls. Four. Two boys, two girls.
711 00:41:10,612 00:41:12,174 Linda wants another. Linda wants another.
712 00:41:12,199 00:41:15,120 Well, I mean, our first, another for me. Well, I mean, our first, another for me.
713 00:41:16,166 00:41:18,846 - You not so much? - Well, I'd like to. - You not so much? - Well, I'd like to.
714 00:41:20,365 00:41:22,753 I've already fucked it up four times. I've already fucked it up four times.
715 00:41:22,906 00:41:25,010 This job does that. This job does that.
716 00:41:25,409 00:41:27,057 How are the boys? How are the boys?
717 00:41:29,410 00:41:31,651 I haven't seen them for a while. I haven't seen them for a while.
718 00:41:32,210 00:41:34,167 I'm sorry to hear that, Peter. I'm sorry to hear that, Peter.
719 00:41:34,592 00:41:36,674 We should have stopped him, Steve. We should have stopped him, Steve.
720 00:41:37,851 00:41:39,854 We caught him first chance we could. We caught him first chance we could.
721 00:41:39,879 00:41:41,253 We should have known. We should have known.
722 00:41:41,278 00:41:44,057 Sometimes it's just not possible. Sometimes it's just not possible.
723 00:41:44,082 00:41:48,122 I mean, he had a normal life, a normal job. I mean, he had a normal life, a normal job.
724 00:41:49,808 00:41:51,642 You going to the committal hearing? You going to the committal hearing?
725 00:41:51,667 00:41:53,462 Yeah. You? Yeah. You?
726 00:41:53,487 00:41:57,009 Aye. I can't wait for it all to be over. Aye. I can't wait for it all to be over.
727 00:41:57,587 00:41:58,682 D'you know that he was the one D'you know that he was the one
728 00:41:58,706 00:42:00,798 that wrote the letters about the blocked drains? that wrote the letters about the blocked drains?
729 00:42:01,494 00:42:04,032 Told his landlord he wouldn't pay rent until they were cleaned. Told his landlord he wouldn't pay rent until they were cleaned.
730 00:42:04,057 00:42:07,853 I mean, this whole thing, it's always been to Nilsen's script. I mean, this whole thing, it's always been to Nilsen's script.
731 00:42:19,043 00:42:20,204 Brian? Brian?
732 00:42:20,314 00:42:21,759 Hello? Hello?
733 00:42:23,979 00:42:26,118 A dogs' home called for you. A dogs' home called for you.
734 00:42:26,143 00:42:30,103 They said further to your enquiry, Nilsen's dog has been put down. They said further to your enquiry, Nilsen's dog has been put down.
735 00:42:31,210 00:42:34,751 He asked me to find out about his dog, that's all. He asked me to find out about his dog, that's all.
736 00:42:36,803 00:42:38,696 I need to get him to trust me. I need to get him to trust me.
737 00:42:38,721 00:42:40,603 Otherwise all this is for nothing. Otherwise all this is for nothing.
738 00:42:40,628 00:42:42,954 So, what, now you're doing errands for him? So, what, now you're doing errands for him?
739 00:42:42,979 00:42:44,376 Oh, come on. Oh, come on.
740 00:42:45,803 00:42:49,751 Someone who knows our world, our community, needs to write this. Someone who knows our world, our community, needs to write this.
741 00:42:49,776 00:42:52,018 Otherwise they'll get it wrong. I mean, they'll fuck it up. Otherwise they'll get it wrong. I mean, they'll fuck it up.
742 00:42:52,042 00:42:53,353 They already are. They already are.
743 00:42:54,431 00:42:56,831 Please... please try and understand. Please... please try and understand.
744 00:42:59,512 00:43:02,501 Just make sure it's not him who's writing it. Just make sure it's not him who's writing it.
745 00:43:19,447 00:43:23,009 [REPORTERS CALL OUT] [REPORTERS CALL OUT]
746 00:43:24,083 00:43:26,446 Inspector! Having spent so much time with Nilsen, Inspector! Having spent so much time with Nilsen,
747 00:43:26,471 00:43:28,471 can you tell us what is he really like? can you tell us what is he really like?
748 00:43:28,496 00:43:30,681 - Unremarkable. - What makes you say that? - Unremarkable. - What makes you say that?
749 00:43:30,706 00:43:33,178 [REPORTERS CALL OUT] [REPORTERS CALL OUT]
750 00:43:52,923 00:43:54,850 This is a surprise, Brian. This is a surprise, Brian.
751 00:43:55,061 00:43:56,881 Hello, there, Des. Uh... Hello, there, Des. Uh...
752 00:43:57,433 00:43:58,819 How are you doing? How are you doing?
753 00:43:59,522 00:44:00,912 Ah, I can't complain. Ah, I can't complain.
754 00:44:00,937 00:44:02,819 If I did, who'd listen? If I did, who'd listen?
755 00:44:03,767 00:44:05,246 Des, erm... Des, erm...
756 00:44:07,622 00:44:12,284 Bleep was put down by the dogs' home. Bleep was put down by the dogs' home.
757 00:44:13,529 00:44:16,932 She became ill not soon after you'd been... She became ill not soon after you'd been...
758 00:44:16,957 00:44:18,746 arrested, and... arrested, and...
759 00:44:19,099 00:44:23,794 and they thought that it would be kinder that way. and they thought that it would be kinder that way.
760 00:44:25,532 00:44:28,318 She forgave me everything and never let me down. She forgave me everything and never let me down.
761 00:44:29,915 00:44:31,714 But in the moment of her greatest crisis, But in the moment of her greatest crisis,
762 00:44:31,739 00:44:33,139 I wasn't there for her. I wasn't there for her.
763 00:44:36,507 00:44:38,451 How's the book progressing? How's the book progressing?
764 00:44:39,979 00:44:42,540 It's coming along very well, thank you. It's coming along very well, thank you.
765 00:44:42,862 00:44:46,365 I'm currently writing about your experiences in Aden. I'm currently writing about your experiences in Aden.
766 00:44:47,157 00:44:49,966 Another place the British Army should have never been. Another place the British Army should have never been.
767 00:44:50,565 00:44:53,505 When they came to get me, I thought you were my solicitor. When they came to get me, I thought you were my solicitor.
768 00:44:54,196 00:44:58,196 Sorry? Solicitor? I thought you'd dispensed with your legal aid? Sorry? Solicitor? I thought you'd dispensed with your legal aid?
769 00:44:58,588 00:45:01,707 Change is the only constant in life. Who said that? Change is the only constant in life. Who said that?
770 00:45:01,732 00:45:03,035 Heraclitus. Heraclitus.
771 00:45:03,060 00:45:04,387 Yeah. Yeah.
772 00:45:05,461 00:45:08,629 No, well, this solicitor, this one has a tax-deductible heart, No, well, this solicitor, this one has a tax-deductible heart,
773 00:45:08,654 00:45:10,269 but needs must, y'know? but needs must, y'know?
774 00:45:11,191 00:45:13,090 Right, well... Right, well...
775 00:45:14,223 00:45:15,903 I'll see you up there. I'll see you up there.
776 00:45:17,279 00:45:19,158 I do wanna thank you, Brian. I do wanna thank you, Brian.
777 00:45:21,453 00:45:22,893 For what? For what?
778 00:45:23,386 00:45:24,956 Your company. Your company.
779 00:46:01,986 00:46:03,581 All rise. All rise.
780 00:46:20,869 00:46:23,347 Dennis Andrew Nilsen. Dennis Andrew Nilsen.
781 00:46:24,402 00:46:26,308 On count one of this indictment, On count one of this indictment,
782 00:46:26,333 00:46:29,112 you are charged with the murder of Stephen Sinclair. you are charged with the murder of Stephen Sinclair.
783 00:46:29,693 00:46:34,093 How say you, are you guilty or not guilty? How say you, are you guilty or not guilty?
784 00:46:36,997 00:46:38,542 Not guilty. Not guilty.
785 00:46:38,870 00:46:43,011 On count two, you are charged with the murder of Kenneth Ockenden. On count two, you are charged with the murder of Kenneth Ockenden.
786 00:46:43,036 00:46:45,737 How say you, guilty or not guilty? How say you, guilty or not guilty?
787 00:46:46,167 00:46:47,386 Not guilty. Not guilty.
788 00:46:47,411 00:46:50,851 On count three, you are charged with the murder of John Howlett. On count three, you are charged with the murder of John Howlett.
789 00:46:51,049 00:46:53,854 How say you, guilty or not guilty? How say you, guilty or not guilty?
790 00:46:54,032 00:46:55,909 Not guilty. Not guilty.
791 00:46:56,293 00:46:58,808 Synced & corrected by QueenMaddie www.addic7ed.com Synced & corrected by QueenMaddie www.addic7ed.com