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1 | 00:00:40,413 | 00:00:44,250 | This is my grandfather, Julius Rosenberg, | This is my grandfather, Julius Rosenberg, |
2 | 00:00:44,417 | 00:00:48,588 | and this is Julius and Ethel Rosenberg together. | and this is Julius and Ethel Rosenberg together. |
3 | 00:00:49,964 | 00:00:52,091 | My father and my uncle | My father and my uncle |
4 | 00:00:52,258 | 00:00:58,097 | were around ten and six | were around ten and six |
5 | 00:01:01,392 | 00:01:03,185 | when they were electrocuted. | when they were electrocuted. |
6 | 00:01:05,521 | 00:01:08,482 | They were accused of stealing the Atom Bomb Secret. | They were accused of stealing the Atom Bomb Secret. |
7 | 00:01:10,192 | 00:01:15,072 | I want to ask my dad how people started thinking | I want to ask my dad how people started thinking |
8 | 00:01:15,239 | 00:01:19,368 | about why Ethel and Julius stole the Atom Bomb Secret. | about why Ethel and Julius stole the Atom Bomb Secret. |
9 | 00:01:19,535 | 00:01:21,036 | Why he accused 'em? | Why he accused 'em? |
10 | 00:01:21,203 | 00:01:24,415 | What happened was that the government of the United States | What happened was that the government of the United States |
11 | 00:01:24,582 | 00:01:29,503 | wanted to make your Grandma and Grandpa | wanted to make your Grandma and Grandpa |
12 | 00:01:29,670 | 00:01:32,589 | make up some lies about a lot of people, | make up some lies about a lot of people, |
13 | 00:01:32,756 | 00:01:35,926 | so that these people, who the government of the US didn't like, | so that these people, who the government of the US didn't like, |
14 | 00:01:36,093 | 00:01:38,429 | would all get put in jail. | would all get put in jail. |
15 | 00:01:38,595 | 00:01:44,476 | But they refused to tell those lies. If they did, other people would be killed. | But they refused to tell those lies. If they did, other people would be killed. |
16 | 00:01:44,643 | 00:01:50,148 | What I want to do, is I want to say, to the people who killed my parents, | What I want to do, is I want to say, to the people who killed my parents, |
17 | 00:01:50,315 | 00:01:54,528 | 25 years ago you killed two people but you did not crush our struggle. | 25 years ago you killed two people but you did not crush our struggle. |
18 | 00:01:54,695 | 00:01:57,823 | We are still here and we are still struggling. | We are still here and we are still struggling. |
19 | 00:01:57,990 | 00:02:02,869 | And we are united in the statement that it will never happen again. | And we are united in the statement that it will never happen again. |
20 | 00:02:07,207 | 00:02:10,627 | Roy Cohn, when he was virtually just a teenager, | Roy Cohn, when he was virtually just a teenager, |
21 | 00:02:10,794 | 00:02:15,173 | sent Julius and Ethel Rosenberg to the electric chair. | sent Julius and Ethel Rosenberg to the electric chair. |
22 | 00:02:17,259 | 00:02:21,471 | You've had 30 years, 30 years since the Rosenbergs were executed. | You've had 30 years, 30 years since the Rosenbergs were executed. |
23 | 00:02:22,681 | 00:02:25,350 | Have you spent one of those nights sleepless, | Have you spent one of those nights sleepless, |
24 | 00:02:25,517 | 00:02:27,811 | for sending this couple to the chair? | for sending this couple to the chair? |
25 | 00:02:27,977 | 00:02:31,231 | Of course not Barry. This couple was convicted by a jury | Of course not Barry. This couple was convicted by a jury |
26 | 00:02:31,398 | 00:02:36,361 | and if ever the death penalty were appropriate, it was in that case. | and if ever the death penalty were appropriate, it was in that case. |
27 | 00:02:41,699 | 00:02:43,076 | Is there a police officer? | Is there a police officer? |
28 | 00:02:47,997 | 00:02:50,416 | What can I say? That I haven't been discreet? | What can I say? That I haven't been discreet? |
29 | 00:02:50,583 | 00:02:52,001 | I never claimed to be discreet. | I never claimed to be discreet. |
30 | 00:02:52,168 | 00:02:53,795 | Ernie get out. | Ernie get out. |
31 | 00:02:53,961 | 00:02:55,338 | Ernie, c'mon! | Ernie, c'mon! |
32 | 00:02:56,839 | 00:02:59,467 | I claim to be upfront and totally candid, | I claim to be upfront and totally candid, |
33 | 00:02:59,634 | 00:03:01,552 | and I claim not to be a hypocrite. | and I claim not to be a hypocrite. |
34 | 00:03:01,719 | 00:03:04,430 | We believe that the free world is gonna win the Cold War | We believe that the free world is gonna win the Cold War |
35 | 00:03:04,597 | 00:03:07,975 | and win this fight by one thing: the truth. | and win this fight by one thing: the truth. |
36 | 00:03:08,142 | 00:03:10,811 | I'm a guy who's taken tough positions, | I'm a guy who's taken tough positions, |
37 | 00:03:10,978 | 00:03:14,023 | starting with the Rosenberg case, starting with the McCarthy period. | starting with the Rosenberg case, starting with the McCarthy period. |
38 | 00:03:14,190 | 00:03:17,777 | I don't see the difference between Nazism and Hitler on the one hand | I don't see the difference between Nazism and Hitler on the one hand |
39 | 00:03:17,943 | 00:03:21,864 | and communism on the other hand. | and communism on the other hand. |
40 | 00:03:22,031 | 00:03:25,785 | What I do, I do on the basis of moral judgments as I make them, | What I do, I do on the basis of moral judgments as I make them, |
41 | 00:03:25,951 | 00:03:30,998 | as only I must make them, according to my own conscience. | as only I must make them, according to my own conscience. |
42 | 00:03:31,165 | 00:03:35,377 | I reserve the right to make judgments about myself and other people, | I reserve the right to make judgments about myself and other people, |
43 | 00:03:35,544 | 00:03:38,589 | and have other people make them about me. | and have other people make them about me. |
44 | 00:03:38,756 | 00:03:42,384 | If someone wants to be my detractor, that is that person's privilege. | If someone wants to be my detractor, that is that person's privilege. |
45 | 00:03:42,551 | 00:03:43,927 | I just don't care. | I just don't care. |
46 | 00:03:44,094 | 00:03:46,180 | And I'll show them what the national interest is, | And I'll show them what the national interest is, |
47 | 00:03:46,347 | 00:03:48,265 | I'll hold up the army to ridicule. | I'll hold up the army to ridicule. |
48 | 00:03:48,432 | 00:03:50,726 | -I said that? -According to a book I read. | -I said that? -According to a book I read. |
49 | 00:03:50,893 | 00:03:52,269 | Read another book. | Read another book. |
50 | 00:03:54,438 | 00:03:56,440 | I found out one thing in life: | I found out one thing in life: |
51 | 00:03:56,607 | 00:03:59,443 | don't ever threaten unless you intend to follow through. | don't ever threaten unless you intend to follow through. |
52 | 00:04:12,873 | 00:04:14,791 | Everything I do has to be true. | Everything I do has to be true. |
53 | 00:04:14,958 | 00:04:18,128 | I will not say anything that I cannot repeat under oath. | I will not say anything that I cannot repeat under oath. |
54 | 00:04:34,936 | 00:04:38,732 | In 1980, I went to Playboy Magazine | In 1980, I went to Playboy Magazine |
55 | 00:04:38,898 | 00:04:43,236 | and I said I'd like to do an interview of Roy Cohn for the magazine. | and I said I'd like to do an interview of Roy Cohn for the magazine. |
56 | 00:04:43,403 | 00:04:44,779 | Testing... | Testing... |
57 | 00:04:46,239 | 00:04:48,074 | Roy Cohn, Peter Manso. | Roy Cohn, Peter Manso. |
58 | 00:04:48,241 | 00:04:50,827 | Actually why don't we do this, why don't we just break here? | Actually why don't we do this, why don't we just break here? |
59 | 00:04:50,994 | 00:04:53,955 | -Have we covered a lot of... -We're getting there. | -Have we covered a lot of... -We're getting there. |
60 | 00:04:54,122 | 00:05:00,211 | I simply called Roy at his law firm, Saxe, Bacon, & Bolan in New York, | I simply called Roy at his law firm, Saxe, Bacon, & Bolan in New York, |
61 | 00:05:00,378 | 00:05:05,174 | left a message, and five minutes later the phone rang and it was Roy. | left a message, and five minutes later the phone rang and it was Roy. |
62 | 00:05:05,341 | 00:05:12,306 | 'Sounds interesting, when do you want to get together to talk about it? ' | 'Sounds interesting, when do you want to get together to talk about it? ' |
63 | 00:05:12,473 | 00:05:15,935 | We started taping at his place in North Greenwich, | We started taping at his place in North Greenwich, |
64 | 00:05:16,102 | 00:05:17,895 | an hour or so north of New York. | an hour or so north of New York. |
65 | 00:05:19,730 | 00:05:21,107 | Go ahead. | Go ahead. |
66 | 00:05:21,274 | 00:05:23,859 | So presumably your clients, the wealthy, social register types, | So presumably your clients, the wealthy, social register types, |
67 | 00:05:24,026 | 00:05:25,611 | have come to you over the years | have come to you over the years |
68 | 00:05:25,778 | 00:05:28,406 | because you have gained a reputation for winning. | because you have gained a reputation for winning. |
69 | 00:05:28,572 | 00:05:30,658 | Does all of this go back to what you learned from McCarthy, | Does all of this go back to what you learned from McCarthy, |
70 | 00:05:30,825 | 00:05:33,744 | the so-called 'Achilles heel' technique? | the so-called 'Achilles heel' technique? |
71 | 00:05:33,911 | 00:05:36,664 | I wouldn't say it's what I learned from McCarthy. | I wouldn't say it's what I learned from McCarthy. |
72 | 00:05:36,831 | 00:05:40,000 | I think it's what I started learning during the Rosenberg Trial, | I think it's what I started learning during the Rosenberg Trial, |
73 | 00:05:40,167 | 00:05:42,169 | what I learned in the US district attorney's office, | what I learned in the US district attorney's office, |
74 | 00:05:42,336 | 00:05:45,297 | when I made up my mind that law is an adversary profession. | when I made up my mind that law is an adversary profession. |
75 | 00:05:45,464 | 00:05:49,969 | One side wins, one side loses. I don't like to lose, I hate to lose. | One side wins, one side loses. I don't like to lose, I hate to lose. |
76 | 00:05:50,135 | 00:05:51,845 | So I made up my mind | So I made up my mind |
77 | 00:05:52,012 | 00:05:55,307 | that I was going to everything I could, in the way of careful preparation... | that I was going to everything I could, in the way of careful preparation... |
78 | 00:05:55,474 | 00:05:58,143 | In the way of tough fighting, to be a winner. | In the way of tough fighting, to be a winner. |
79 | 00:06:00,479 | 00:06:07,694 | It became clear to me right away that my stereotyping of Roy was inadequate. | It became clear to me right away that my stereotyping of Roy was inadequate. |
80 | 00:06:07,861 | 00:06:10,030 | To call him evil-it's true. | To call him evil-it's true. |
81 | 00:06:11,490 | 00:06:16,036 | But, it doesn't explain a hundred other things about Roy Cohn. | But, it doesn't explain a hundred other things about Roy Cohn. |
82 | 00:06:16,203 | 00:06:18,997 | He was bright, he was contentious, | He was bright, he was contentious, |
83 | 00:06:19,164 | 00:06:22,084 | but I think what appealed to me most about Roy | but I think what appealed to me most about Roy |
84 | 00:06:22,250 | 00:06:25,212 | is that he was a lawless mad man. | is that he was a lawless mad man. |
85 | 00:06:25,378 | 00:06:28,715 | I would say I'm probably more of a maverick. | I would say I'm probably more of a maverick. |
86 | 00:06:28,882 | 00:06:31,384 | I do have a crazy list of clients. | I do have a crazy list of clients. |
87 | 00:06:31,551 | 00:06:34,971 | The usual reaction isn't 'Roy Cohn represents the Mob. ' | The usual reaction isn't 'Roy Cohn represents the Mob. ' |
88 | 00:06:35,138 | 00:06:39,059 | It's 'Roy Cohn and Studio 54. Roy Cohn and anti-communism. | It's 'Roy Cohn and Studio 54. Roy Cohn and anti-communism. |
89 | 00:06:39,225 | 00:06:40,644 | Roy Cohn and the archdiocese. | Roy Cohn and the archdiocese. |
90 | 00:06:40,810 | 00:06:44,814 | Roy Cohn, the friend of... The lawyer for Donald Trump. | Roy Cohn, the friend of... The lawyer for Donald Trump. |
91 | 00:06:44,981 | 00:06:48,735 | Good friend of George Steinbrenner who owns the New York Yankees. | Good friend of George Steinbrenner who owns the New York Yankees. |
92 | 00:06:48,902 | 00:06:52,238 | Roy Cohn, the friend of Congressmen, Senators, Judges. ' | Roy Cohn, the friend of Congressmen, Senators, Judges. ' |
93 | 00:07:00,622 | 00:07:03,708 | Someone had passed America's atomic bomb secrets to Russia. | Someone had passed America's atomic bomb secrets to Russia. |
94 | 00:07:03,875 | 00:07:06,294 | This was an undisputed fact that the whole world knew. | This was an undisputed fact that the whole world knew. |
95 | 00:07:06,461 | 00:07:09,922 | The government had laid the crime at the doorstep of two New Yorkers: | The government had laid the crime at the doorstep of two New Yorkers: |
96 | 00:07:10,089 | 00:07:11,758 | Julius and Ethel Rosenberg. | Julius and Ethel Rosenberg. |
97 | 00:07:19,390 | 00:07:21,392 | My parents both grew up during the Great Depression. | My parents both grew up during the Great Depression. |
98 | 00:07:24,020 | 00:07:25,771 | The communists were the ones who were fighting | The communists were the ones who were fighting |
99 | 00:07:25,938 | 00:07:28,232 | for the rights of tenants and of workers, | for the rights of tenants and of workers, |
100 | 00:07:28,399 | 00:07:31,110 | and so they were naturally drawn to it. | and so they were naturally drawn to it. |
101 | 00:07:31,277 | 00:07:35,489 | In World War II, given the wartime alliance with the Soviet Union, | In World War II, given the wartime alliance with the Soviet Union, |
102 | 00:07:35,656 | 00:07:40,828 | Communism was allied with Americanism. | Communism was allied with Americanism. |
103 | 00:07:40,995 | 00:07:43,164 | It became a natural thing | It became a natural thing |
104 | 00:07:43,330 | 00:07:47,668 | to politically support the survival of the Soviet Union. | to politically support the survival of the Soviet Union. |
105 | 00:07:50,963 | 00:07:55,301 | My father made a big deal at the trial that he liked the Soviet Union, | My father made a big deal at the trial that he liked the Soviet Union, |
106 | 00:07:55,467 | 00:07:58,846 | because it had torn the guts out of the Hitler beast | because it had torn the guts out of the Hitler beast |
107 | 00:07:59,013 | 00:08:01,598 | that killed 6 million of my fellow Jews. | that killed 6 million of my fellow Jews. |
108 | 00:08:04,560 | 00:08:06,812 | When my children were young, | When my children were young, |
109 | 00:08:06,979 | 00:08:11,692 | they learned that Judge Kauffman sentenced their grandparents to death. | they learned that Judge Kauffman sentenced their grandparents to death. |
110 | 00:08:11,859 | 00:08:16,488 | David Greenglass, my mother's brother, who was a machinist at Los Alamos, | David Greenglass, my mother's brother, who was a machinist at Los Alamos, |
111 | 00:08:16,655 | 00:08:18,824 | claimed that Julius and Ethel Rosenberg | claimed that Julius and Ethel Rosenberg |
112 | 00:08:18,991 | 00:08:21,326 | recruited him to be a spy for the Soviet Union. | recruited him to be a spy for the Soviet Union. |
113 | 00:08:22,995 | 00:08:25,872 | And that's where Roy Cohn enters the scene. | And that's where Roy Cohn enters the scene. |
114 | 00:08:26,039 | 00:08:28,792 | He coached David Greenglass to develop his testimony, | He coached David Greenglass to develop his testimony, |
115 | 00:08:28,959 | 00:08:31,211 | examined David Greenglass at the trial. | examined David Greenglass at the trial. |
116 | 00:08:33,255 | 00:08:37,717 | The two of them together were the reason my parents were convicted | The two of them together were the reason my parents were convicted |
117 | 00:08:37,884 | 00:08:39,886 | and the reason they were executed. | and the reason they were executed. |
118 | 00:08:52,482 | 00:08:54,609 | Think back when you were a kid. | Think back when you were a kid. |
119 | 00:08:55,860 | 00:08:57,779 | -Were you aware of Roy Cohn? -No. | -Were you aware of Roy Cohn? -No. |
120 | 00:08:57,946 | 00:09:02,158 | In 1955, I read The Judgment of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg by John Wexley. | In 1955, I read The Judgment of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg by John Wexley. |
121 | 00:09:02,325 | 00:09:04,702 | And there was the reference to Roy Cohn, | And there was the reference to Roy Cohn, |
122 | 00:09:04,869 | 00:09:07,205 | and I'd already heard about him because of McCarthy. | and I'd already heard about him because of McCarthy. |
123 | 00:09:07,372 | 00:09:09,791 | -And how old were you? -1955: I was twelve. | -And how old were you? -1955: I was twelve. |
124 | 00:09:11,918 | 00:09:13,544 | That's quite a book to read when you're twelve. | That's quite a book to read when you're twelve. |
125 | 00:09:13,711 | 00:09:17,006 | I didn't understand it much. But the name Roy Cohn stuck in my mind | I didn't understand it much. But the name Roy Cohn stuck in my mind |
126 | 00:09:17,173 | 00:09:20,176 | 'cause I'd seen the stuff on TV about McCarthy. | 'cause I'd seen the stuff on TV about McCarthy. |
127 | 00:09:20,343 | 00:09:24,680 | I knew that McCarthy was a bad man, not that I knew any of the details. | I knew that McCarthy was a bad man, not that I knew any of the details. |
128 | 00:09:27,266 | 00:09:29,644 | I had graduated from college and law school, | I had graduated from college and law school, |
129 | 00:09:29,811 | 00:09:32,772 | and gotten both degrees in three years and four months. | and gotten both degrees in three years and four months. |
130 | 00:09:34,273 | 00:09:39,946 | I went to the US attorney's office... I was a kid. I was not yet twenty. | I went to the US attorney's office... I was a kid. I was not yet twenty. |
131 | 00:09:40,112 | 00:09:43,532 | I prosecuted internal security cases, counterfeiting, narcotics, | I prosecuted internal security cases, counterfeiting, narcotics, |
132 | 00:09:43,699 | 00:09:45,993 | and I had a minor name because of that. | and I had a minor name because of that. |
133 | 00:09:47,244 | 00:09:49,205 | I examined David Greenglass, | I examined David Greenglass, |
134 | 00:09:49,371 | 00:09:54,710 | I was then a big fat 23 years old, and I sort of put the case together. | I was then a big fat 23 years old, and I sort of put the case together. |
135 | 00:09:57,129 | 00:10:00,174 | I think that the death sentence, imposed by Judge Irving R. Kauffman | I think that the death sentence, imposed by Judge Irving R. Kauffman |
136 | 00:10:00,341 | 00:10:03,552 | in the Atom Spy Trial, had a very strong deterrent effect. | in the Atom Spy Trial, had a very strong deterrent effect. |
137 | 00:10:03,719 | 00:10:07,765 | It's been a very good year on the anticommunist front in this country. | It's been a very good year on the anticommunist front in this country. |
138 | 00:10:09,808 | 00:10:12,436 | He was known as the guy who got the conviction | He was known as the guy who got the conviction |
139 | 00:10:12,603 | 00:10:14,563 | and execution of the Rosenbergs, | and execution of the Rosenbergs, |
140 | 00:10:14,730 | 00:10:21,904 | and I think he saw this as a stepping stone to glory and it worked. | and I think he saw this as a stepping stone to glory and it worked. |
141 | 00:10:22,070 | 00:10:25,073 | 1953, Washington, D. C. | 1953, Washington, D. C. |
142 | 00:10:25,240 | 00:10:28,994 | I became Chief Counsel for the Senate Investigating Committee, | I became Chief Counsel for the Senate Investigating Committee, |
143 | 00:10:29,161 | 00:10:31,455 | when Senator McCarthy became chairman. | when Senator McCarthy became chairman. |
144 | 00:10:34,374 | 00:10:38,336 | Government agencies had covered up security risks | Government agencies had covered up security risks |
145 | 00:10:38,503 | 00:10:41,965 | and have left people in sensitive positions. | and have left people in sensitive positions. |
146 | 00:10:42,132 | 00:10:45,135 | Our job is to show cover ups. | Our job is to show cover ups. |
147 | 00:10:45,302 | 00:10:47,137 | He had to always be the tough guy in the room. | He had to always be the tough guy in the room. |
148 | 00:10:47,304 | 00:10:49,931 | He had to be the one who was the most macho. | He had to be the one who was the most macho. |
149 | 00:10:50,098 | 00:10:53,184 | Hw to do it in the 50s: you went after communists. | Hw to do it in the 50s: you went after communists. |
150 | 00:10:53,351 | 00:10:56,438 | I don't think you understood. The question was, do you know him? | I don't think you understood. The question was, do you know him? |
151 | 00:10:56,605 | 00:11:00,608 | Can you look at the picture and tell us whether you know him? | Can you look at the picture and tell us whether you know him? |
152 | 00:11:00,775 | 00:11:03,236 | Can you answer the simple question of whether he's a communist... | Can you answer the simple question of whether he's a communist... |
153 | 00:11:03,403 | 00:11:09,576 | Your statements about him have made it difficult for me... | Your statements about him have made it difficult for me... |
154 | 00:11:09,742 | 00:11:13,955 | I want to put on the record the fact that I want... | I want to put on the record the fact that I want... |
155 | 00:11:18,251 | 00:11:20,420 | McCarthy didn't know anything about communists, really. | McCarthy didn't know anything about communists, really. |
156 | 00:11:20,587 | 00:11:23,548 | But Roy found, by being on his shoulder, | But Roy found, by being on his shoulder, |
157 | 00:11:23,715 | 00:11:26,634 | by pushing, pushing him, he was a mover and shaker. | by pushing, pushing him, he was a mover and shaker. |
158 | 00:11:26,801 | 00:11:30,304 | He didn't want to be in McCarthy's seat, be in the center, | He didn't want to be in McCarthy's seat, be in the center, |
159 | 00:11:30,471 | 00:11:33,474 | but he wanted to be the guy behind the powerbrokers. | but he wanted to be the guy behind the powerbrokers. |
160 | 00:11:33,641 | 00:11:37,478 | The last way to be politically ambitious as a Jewish, New York Democrat, | The last way to be politically ambitious as a Jewish, New York Democrat, |
161 | 00:11:37,645 | 00:11:41,023 | which I was and am, is by becoming counsel for Senator McCarthy, | which I was and am, is by becoming counsel for Senator McCarthy, |
162 | 00:11:41,190 | 00:11:44,902 | so I was hardly down there for any political ambition. | so I was hardly down there for any political ambition. |
163 | 00:11:45,987 | 00:11:48,656 | I was down there to do more in this type of work, | I was down there to do more in this type of work, |
164 | 00:11:48,823 | 00:11:51,617 | in which I believed then and which I believe now. | in which I believed then and which I believe now. |
165 | 00:11:53,953 | 00:11:59,834 | Roy was a hero to many who had seen Communism up close, | Roy was a hero to many who had seen Communism up close, |
166 | 00:12:00,000 | 00:12:02,628 | as was the case of myself. | as was the case of myself. |
167 | 00:12:02,795 | 00:12:06,590 | For me, Communism was far worse than any, anything I'd ever seen. | For me, Communism was far worse than any, anything I'd ever seen. |
168 | 00:12:06,757 | 00:12:08,968 | I could imagine the worst thing you could be was a Communist, | I could imagine the worst thing you could be was a Communist, |
169 | 00:12:09,134 | 00:12:12,554 | because you were a danger to our way of life, to our way of thinking. | because you were a danger to our way of life, to our way of thinking. |
170 | 00:12:12,721 | 00:12:15,975 | And Roy was brought up in that climate. | And Roy was brought up in that climate. |
171 | 00:12:17,518 | 00:12:21,563 | I imagine this guy coming of age during World War II. | I imagine this guy coming of age during World War II. |
172 | 00:12:21,730 | 00:12:25,943 | And the terror of what would happen when we ceased | And the terror of what would happen when we ceased |
173 | 00:12:26,110 | 00:12:29,112 | to be the only country in the world that had nuclear weapons. | to be the only country in the world that had nuclear weapons. |
174 | 00:12:29,279 | 00:12:32,241 | The Communist Party is not a political party. | The Communist Party is not a political party. |
175 | 00:12:32,407 | 00:12:34,493 | It's a criminal conspiracy. | It's a criminal conspiracy. |
176 | 00:12:34,660 | 00:12:38,205 | Its object is the overthrow of the government of the United States | Its object is the overthrow of the government of the United States |
177 | 00:12:38,372 | 00:12:39,790 | by force and violence. | by force and violence. |
178 | 00:12:39,957 | 00:12:41,583 | As soon as the right time arrives. | As soon as the right time arrives. |
179 | 00:12:41,750 | 00:12:43,502 | They're traitors to America. | They're traitors to America. |
180 | 00:12:43,669 | 00:12:45,712 | Why don't we do something about it? | Why don't we do something about it? |
181 | 00:12:45,879 | 00:12:48,382 | They are enemies, they are not Americans... | They are enemies, they are not Americans... |
182 | 00:12:51,301 | 00:12:54,262 | They're homosexuals, they're communists! | They're homosexuals, they're communists! |
183 | 00:12:54,429 | 00:12:56,014 | They're communists! | They're communists! |
184 | 00:12:56,181 | 00:13:01,978 | The two groups that were initially tagged with the 'red taint' | The two groups that were initially tagged with the 'red taint' |
185 | 00:13:02,145 | 00:13:07,776 | more than any other groups in this country were homosexuals and Jews. | more than any other groups in this country were homosexuals and Jews. |
186 | 00:13:09,569 | 00:13:14,783 | There's another group about which I hesitate to talk, | There's another group about which I hesitate to talk, |
187 | 00:13:14,949 | 00:13:16,826 | but I think the picture isn't complete unless we do. | but I think the picture isn't complete unless we do. |
188 | 00:13:18,495 | 00:13:21,164 | Some of them have that unusual affliction | Some of them have that unusual affliction |
189 | 00:13:21,331 | 00:13:25,501 | because of no fault of their own, most because they're morally weak. | because of no fault of their own, most because they're morally weak. |
190 | 00:13:28,755 | 00:13:32,216 | The pervert is easy prey to the blackmailer. | The pervert is easy prey to the blackmailer. |
191 | 00:13:32,383 | 00:13:36,346 | It follows that if blackmailers can exhort money from these individuals, | It follows that if blackmailers can exhort money from these individuals, |
192 | 00:13:36,512 | 00:13:39,849 | espionage agents can use the same type of pressure. | espionage agents can use the same type of pressure. |
193 | 00:13:41,058 | 00:13:43,144 | They're dangerous to this country. | They're dangerous to this country. |
194 | 00:13:48,983 | 00:13:52,320 | We know that communists writing about the United States | We know that communists writing about the United States |
195 | 00:13:52,486 | 00:13:54,322 | are not giving the true picture. | are not giving the true picture. |
196 | 00:13:55,990 | 00:13:59,577 | And that is why we don't believe that Amerika Haus, | And that is why we don't believe that Amerika Haus, |
197 | 00:13:59,744 | 00:14:03,205 | which is supposed to give a true picture of life in the United States, | which is supposed to give a true picture of life in the United States, |
198 | 00:14:03,372 | 00:14:06,167 | should contain books written by communists, | should contain books written by communists, |
199 | 00:14:06,333 | 00:14:09,795 | who are dedicated to wiping the United States off the face of the Earth | who are dedicated to wiping the United States off the face of the Earth |
200 | 00:14:09,962 | 00:14:12,715 | and substituting the freedom we have in America | and substituting the freedom we have in America |
201 | 00:14:12,882 | 00:14:16,844 | for the spiritual and mental enslavement you have in the Soviet Union. | for the spiritual and mental enslavement you have in the Soviet Union. |
202 | 00:14:18,095 | 00:14:21,765 | The McCarthy Committee was now charging that State Libraries overseas | The McCarthy Committee was now charging that State Libraries overseas |
203 | 00:14:21,932 | 00:14:24,059 | contain subversive volumes. | contain subversive volumes. |
204 | 00:14:24,226 | 00:14:26,103 | Cohn, and his friend G. David Schine, | Cohn, and his friend G. David Schine, |
205 | 00:14:26,270 | 00:14:29,481 | the young Harvard graduate and heir to the Schine Hotel fortune, | the young Harvard graduate and heir to the Schine Hotel fortune, |
206 | 00:14:29,648 | 00:14:32,401 | were dispatched on a tour of our libraries overseas. | were dispatched on a tour of our libraries overseas. |
207 | 00:14:37,614 | 00:14:43,662 | We suddenly became the enemy of McCarthy and his cohorts. | We suddenly became the enemy of McCarthy and his cohorts. |
208 | 00:14:44,913 | 00:14:48,458 | They said, 'Do you have The Maltese Falcon?' | They said, 'Do you have The Maltese Falcon?' |
209 | 00:14:48,625 | 00:14:51,545 | I said, 'Yes, they're right over here in the library' | I said, 'Yes, they're right over here in the library' |
210 | 00:14:51,712 | 00:14:53,338 | and Cohn turned and says, | and Cohn turned and says, |
211 | 00:14:53,505 | 00:14:57,092 | 'Nothing but Communist books here in the library.' | 'Nothing but Communist books here in the library.' |
212 | 00:14:58,844 | 00:15:03,223 | They didn't really succeed very much on this particular junket. | They didn't really succeed very much on this particular junket. |
213 | 00:15:04,266 | 00:15:05,892 | But they became notorious. | But they became notorious. |
214 | 00:15:14,025 | 00:15:15,485 | They were two kids, | They were two kids, |
215 | 00:15:15,652 | 00:15:20,365 | that were encouraged by McCarthy and others to go make this global trip. | that were encouraged by McCarthy and others to go make this global trip. |
216 | 00:15:22,033 | 00:15:23,493 | The people who encouraged them | The people who encouraged them |
217 | 00:15:23,660 | 00:15:25,995 | were adults who didn't realize how bad it was gonna look. | were adults who didn't realize how bad it was gonna look. |
218 | 00:15:27,330 | 00:15:31,167 | There are stories that I had heard of them sort of chasing each other | There are stories that I had heard of them sort of chasing each other |
219 | 00:15:31,334 | 00:15:34,295 | through the Ritz in Paris in their towels. | through the Ritz in Paris in their towels. |
220 | 00:15:39,425 | 00:15:44,472 | After Cohn and Schine came back from Europe, Schine got drafted. | After Cohn and Schine came back from Europe, Schine got drafted. |
221 | 00:15:44,639 | 00:15:47,350 | He was just a G.I., just a buck private. | He was just a G.I., just a buck private. |
222 | 00:15:49,602 | 00:15:52,605 | Roy used his position with McCarthy | Roy used his position with McCarthy |
223 | 00:15:52,772 | 00:15:56,609 | and tried to get the army to give Schine favorite treatment. | and tried to get the army to give Schine favorite treatment. |
224 | 00:15:58,194 | 00:16:03,741 | 1954 Army-McCarthy Hearings | 1954 Army-McCarthy Hearings |
225 | 00:16:03,908 | 00:16:05,743 | Senator McCarthy said: | Senator McCarthy said: |
226 | 00:16:05,910 | 00:16:10,247 | 'Roy thinks that Dave ought to be a general | 'Roy thinks that Dave ought to be a general |
227 | 00:16:11,374 | 00:16:15,169 | and operate from a penthouse of Waldorf-Astoria,' | and operate from a penthouse of Waldorf-Astoria,' |
228 | 00:16:15,336 | 00:16:16,754 | or words to that effect. | or words to that effect. |
229 | 00:16:18,214 | 00:16:21,091 | I asked him, 'what would happen if Schine got overseas duty? ' | I asked him, 'what would happen if Schine got overseas duty? ' |
230 | 00:16:21,258 | 00:16:25,804 | He responded with vigor and force: 'we'll wreck the army!' | He responded with vigor and force: 'we'll wreck the army!' |
231 | 00:16:25,971 | 00:16:28,724 | I never knew what hung on Schine's wall, sir. | I never knew what hung on Schine's wall, sir. |
232 | 00:16:28,891 | 00:16:32,186 | You knew what hung on Schine's wall when that was handed to you! | You knew what hung on Schine's wall when that was handed to you! |
233 | 00:16:32,353 | 00:16:34,063 | Did you think this came from a pixie? | Did you think this came from a pixie? |
234 | 00:16:37,441 | 00:16:40,110 | Counsel, for my benefit, define, | Counsel, for my benefit, define, |
235 | 00:16:40,277 | 00:16:42,905 | and I think he might be an expert on that what a pixie is. | and I think he might be an expert on that what a pixie is. |
236 | 00:16:43,071 | 00:16:50,037 | Yes. I should say Mr. Senator that a pixie is a close relative of a fairy. | Yes. I should say Mr. Senator that a pixie is a close relative of a fairy. |
237 | 00:16:55,167 | 00:16:59,087 | Roy Cohn risked being exposed on national television | Roy Cohn risked being exposed on national television |
238 | 00:16:59,254 | 00:17:02,215 | as a pixie, the close relationship to a fairy | as a pixie, the close relationship to a fairy |
239 | 00:17:02,382 | 00:17:05,677 | He went after the U. S. armed forces | He went after the U. S. armed forces |
240 | 00:17:05,844 | 00:17:08,388 | because he wanted his boyfriend back. | because he wanted his boyfriend back. |
241 | 00:17:08,555 | 00:17:12,434 | And he dragged poor, drunk, stupid McCarthy along with him | And he dragged poor, drunk, stupid McCarthy along with him |
242 | 00:17:13,518 | 00:17:16,521 | into this debacle for the two of them. | into this debacle for the two of them. |
243 | 00:17:20,400 | 00:17:24,321 | Final vote condemns M'Carthy for abusing Sente and Committee. | Final vote condemns M'Carthy for abusing Sente and Committee. |
244 | 00:17:27,615 | 00:17:30,827 | Cohn resigns M'Carthy post. | Cohn resigns M'Carthy post. |
245 | 00:17:30,994 | 00:17:33,329 | Everybody thought he was finished after that. | Everybody thought he was finished after that. |
246 | 00:17:34,372 | 00:17:37,625 | This little snot-nosed, 26-year-old who was grilling people. | This little snot-nosed, 26-year-old who was grilling people. |
247 | 00:17:37,792 | 00:17:39,669 | They thought he was just going to be some has-been | They thought he was just going to be some has-been |
248 | 00:17:39,836 | 00:17:41,421 | and everybody was going to dance on his grave. | and everybody was going to dance on his grave. |
249 | 00:17:41,588 | 00:17:43,673 | And you know, from the ashes he rose. | And you know, from the ashes he rose. |
250 | 00:17:52,515 | 00:17:56,394 | By the time you returned to New York after leaving McCarthy in 54', | By the time you returned to New York after leaving McCarthy in 54', |
251 | 00:17:56,561 | 00:17:58,438 | there was quite a lucrative law practice waiting. | there was quite a lucrative law practice waiting. |
252 | 00:17:59,814 | 00:18:04,151 | I suppose through my derivative friendship with my father's friends, | I suppose through my derivative friendship with my father's friends, |
253 | 00:18:04,318 | 00:18:07,905 | who have known him in the course of his quarter of a century on the bench, | who have known him in the course of his quarter of a century on the bench, |
254 | 00:18:08,072 | 00:18:12,034 | that brought me together with the top Democratic leadership in New York. | that brought me together with the top Democratic leadership in New York. |
255 | 00:18:13,828 | 00:18:16,372 | And from there on I steadily worked my way up. | And from there on I steadily worked my way up. |
256 | 00:18:26,715 | 00:18:28,425 | There's always the one event, that one party, | There's always the one event, that one party, |
257 | 00:18:28,592 | 00:18:31,887 | where some people want to be and they want to be seen there. | where some people want to be and they want to be seen there. |
258 | 00:18:32,054 | 00:18:35,224 | The limousines came to the back door of Studio 54 tonight. | The limousines came to the back door of Studio 54 tonight. |
259 | 00:18:35,391 | 00:18:38,185 | Roy was celebrating his birthday at a black tie affair | Roy was celebrating his birthday at a black tie affair |
260 | 00:18:38,352 | 00:18:42,064 | for over 200 of his close friends, thrown by close friend Steve Rubell. | for over 200 of his close friends, thrown by close friend Steve Rubell. |
261 | 00:18:42,231 | 00:18:44,525 | Some of Cohn's friends included former Mayor Abe Beame, | Some of Cohn's friends included former Mayor Abe Beame, |
262 | 00:18:44,692 | 00:18:46,235 | Deputy Mayor Herman Badillo, | Deputy Mayor Herman Badillo, |
263 | 00:18:46,402 | 00:18:48,821 | and Brooklyn democratic leader Meade Esposito. | and Brooklyn democratic leader Meade Esposito. |
264 | 00:18:48,987 | 00:18:50,989 | I was here for his last year's birthday party, | I was here for his last year's birthday party, |
265 | 00:18:51,156 | 00:18:53,534 | and it was really fun so I had to come again. | and it was really fun so I had to come again. |
266 | 00:18:53,700 | 00:18:56,578 | Why does Joey Adams come to say happy birthday to Roy Cohn? | Why does Joey Adams come to say happy birthday to Roy Cohn? |
267 | 00:18:56,745 | 00:19:00,290 | Roy is my buddy for a long time and I don't need him. | Roy is my buddy for a long time and I don't need him. |
268 | 00:19:00,457 | 00:19:03,043 | I'm not getting a divorce, I'm not a member of the mafia, | I'm not getting a divorce, I'm not a member of the mafia, |
269 | 00:19:03,210 | 00:19:07,047 | I don't sniff coke, I don't need him and yet he's my friend. | I don't sniff coke, I don't need him and yet he's my friend. |
270 | 00:19:07,214 | 00:19:10,258 | They know I'll be there, and I always know that they'll be there | They know I'll be there, and I always know that they'll be there |
271 | 00:19:10,425 | 00:19:15,138 | so the people here tonight aren't a question of who did what for whom, | so the people here tonight aren't a question of who did what for whom, |
272 | 00:19:15,305 | 00:19:19,142 | it's a question of who's meant what to whom over a long period of time. | it's a question of who's meant what to whom over a long period of time. |
273 | 00:19:20,519 | 00:19:22,103 | That's him in his Greenwich house | That's him in his Greenwich house |
274 | 00:19:23,188 | 00:19:25,732 | Being his usual notorious, pernicious self. | Being his usual notorious, pernicious self. |
275 | 00:19:25,899 | 00:19:27,567 | Yes indeed. | Yes indeed. |
276 | 00:19:27,734 | 00:19:32,864 | A lot of people have family members they don't want to talk about. | A lot of people have family members they don't want to talk about. |
277 | 00:19:33,031 | 00:19:36,701 | -But he was a personification of evil. -Absolutely. | -But he was a personification of evil. -Absolutely. |
278 | 00:19:37,994 | 00:19:40,413 | -Every family has its Roy Cohn. -I hope not. | -Every family has its Roy Cohn. -I hope not. |
279 | 00:19:40,580 | 00:19:43,041 | The world would be a terrible place if that happened. | The world would be a terrible place if that happened. |
280 | 00:19:44,626 | 00:19:47,170 | I grew up in a family where our family activity | I grew up in a family where our family activity |
281 | 00:19:47,337 | 00:19:49,047 | was to march against the Vietnam War. | was to march against the Vietnam War. |
282 | 00:19:49,214 | 00:19:51,299 | So I was very conscious of the fact that my parents, | So I was very conscious of the fact that my parents, |
283 | 00:19:51,466 | 00:19:55,094 | were very upset about the Rosenbergs, about McCarthy, | were very upset about the Rosenbergs, about McCarthy, |
284 | 00:19:55,261 | 00:19:58,639 | all these things that Roy was intricately involved in. | all these things that Roy was intricately involved in. |
285 | 00:19:59,932 | 00:20:02,310 | But I was a budding journalist and I paid attention to him. | But I was a budding journalist and I paid attention to him. |
286 | 00:20:07,857 | 00:20:09,442 | Roy was the outer borough kid, | Roy was the outer borough kid, |
287 | 00:20:09,609 | 00:20:11,903 | for an only child who grew up in the Bronx. | for an only child who grew up in the Bronx. |
288 | 00:20:12,945 | 00:20:17,116 | Roy's mother was Dora Marcus, who married Al Cohn who became a judge. | Roy's mother was Dora Marcus, who married Al Cohn who became a judge. |
289 | 00:20:18,242 | 00:20:20,911 | His dad was a very powerful Democrat in the Bronx | His dad was a very powerful Democrat in the Bronx |
290 | 00:20:21,078 | 00:20:23,372 | who mingled with Democrats all the time. | who mingled with Democrats all the time. |
291 | 00:20:23,539 | 00:20:27,835 | And yet Roy somehow morphed into a Republican, | And yet Roy somehow morphed into a Republican, |
292 | 00:20:28,002 | 00:20:29,879 | somehow morphed into arch-conservative. | somehow morphed into arch-conservative. |
293 | 00:20:31,589 | 00:20:34,842 | I think Roy grew up with this notion he had to do better than his father. | I think Roy grew up with this notion he had to do better than his father. |
294 | 00:20:35,009 | 00:20:38,762 | He had to be more important, more impressive, more in the news. | He had to be more important, more impressive, more in the news. |
295 | 00:20:40,931 | 00:20:44,518 | And then he had to live with the specter of his Uncle Bernie, | And then he had to live with the specter of his Uncle Bernie, |
296 | 00:20:44,685 | 00:20:47,771 | who was involved in a savings and loan problem, | who was involved in a savings and loan problem, |
297 | 00:20:47,938 | 00:20:49,523 | going to Sing Sing. | going to Sing Sing. |
298 | 00:20:49,690 | 00:20:53,444 | He always talked about going to see Uncle Bernie in Sing Sing. | He always talked about going to see Uncle Bernie in Sing Sing. |
299 | 00:20:53,610 | 00:20:56,405 | And that was a scarring, scary memory for him. | And that was a scarring, scary memory for him. |
300 | 00:20:57,781 | 00:21:01,743 | I can't help thinking that he then sent my grandparents to Sing Sing. | I can't help thinking that he then sent my grandparents to Sing Sing. |
301 | 00:21:01,910 | 00:21:06,206 | I'm sitting here, talking to you about my cousin | I'm sitting here, talking to you about my cousin |
302 | 00:21:06,373 | 00:21:07,749 | who sent your grandparents to Sing Sing | who sent your grandparents to Sing Sing |
303 | 00:21:07,916 | 00:21:12,921 | after watching my grandfather go to Sing Sing... and be ruined. | after watching my grandfather go to Sing Sing... and be ruined. |
304 | 00:21:13,088 | 00:21:16,091 | Roy's lesson was... That's never going to happen to me. | Roy's lesson was... That's never going to happen to me. |
305 | 00:21:16,258 | 00:21:18,260 | I'm never going to be the victim.' | I'm never going to be the victim.' |
306 | 00:21:20,637 | 00:21:23,140 | AIDS Quilt Memorial | AIDS Quilt Memorial |
307 | 00:21:25,058 | 00:21:29,104 | Do you remember when we went to DC and went to see the AIDs quilt? | Do you remember when we went to DC and went to see the AIDs quilt? |
308 | 00:21:29,271 | 00:21:33,942 | Yes. We walk in from a particular location, | Yes. We walk in from a particular location, |
309 | 00:21:34,109 | 00:21:38,571 | and right in front of us, the first quilt we see is Roy Cohn. | and right in front of us, the first quilt we see is Roy Cohn. |
310 | 00:21:43,243 | 00:21:45,078 | -It was crazy. -It really was. | -It was crazy. -It really was. |
311 | 00:21:45,245 | 00:21:49,707 | Thousands of panels and probably, you know, I mean, | Thousands of panels and probably, you know, I mean, |
312 | 00:21:49,874 | 00:21:52,669 | any number of ways we could have come on to the Mall. | any number of ways we could have come on to the Mall. |
313 | 00:21:52,836 | 00:21:56,714 | -Absolutely. -We couldn't believe it. | -Absolutely. -We couldn't believe it. |
314 | 00:21:56,881 | 00:22:00,885 | And what's interesting about that is, if we had come some ways else, | And what's interesting about that is, if we had come some ways else, |
315 | 00:22:01,052 | 00:22:03,096 | we might not have even known he had a panel. | we might not have even known he had a panel. |
316 | 00:22:05,598 | 00:22:07,433 | It was like a 'holy shit' moment. | It was like a 'holy shit' moment. |
317 | 00:22:09,435 | 00:22:14,732 | It's almost like God wanted us to find Roy Cohn's panel | It's almost like God wanted us to find Roy Cohn's panel |
318 | 00:22:14,899 | 00:22:19,195 | to remind us that we were still in the middle of this unbelievable battle. | to remind us that we were still in the middle of this unbelievable battle. |
319 | 00:22:30,831 | 00:22:33,918 | I see, the universe, Joe, | I see, the universe, Joe, |
320 | 00:22:35,503 | 00:22:38,506 | as a kind of sandstorm in outer space, | as a kind of sandstorm in outer space, |
321 | 00:22:38,672 | 00:22:41,050 | with winds of mega hurricane velocity. | with winds of mega hurricane velocity. |
322 | 00:22:42,718 | 00:22:47,097 | But instead of grains of sand, it's shards and splinters of glass. | But instead of grains of sand, it's shards and splinters of glass. |
323 | 00:22:48,515 | 00:22:52,186 | I think that the character of Roy Cohn jumped out at me | I think that the character of Roy Cohn jumped out at me |
324 | 00:22:52,353 | 00:22:58,150 | because he was not only Jewish, like me, but also gay like me. | because he was not only Jewish, like me, but also gay like me. |
325 | 00:22:59,360 | 00:23:03,363 | He also seemed to be one of the worst human beings that had ever lived. | He also seemed to be one of the worst human beings that had ever lived. |
326 | 00:23:03,530 | 00:23:08,410 | You think I'm the only lawyer in history ever missed a court date? | You think I'm the only lawyer in history ever missed a court date? |
327 | 00:23:09,912 | 00:23:13,874 | Don't make such a big fucking hold, you hag! | Don't make such a big fucking hold, you hag! |
328 | 00:23:14,041 | 00:23:16,460 | Most people, when they think of Roy Cohn, | Most people, when they think of Roy Cohn, |
329 | 00:23:16,627 | 00:23:19,588 | think of the character in the play. | think of the character in the play. |
330 | 00:23:19,755 | 00:23:23,717 | And it's only now that people really are more aware | And it's only now that people really are more aware |
331 | 00:23:23,884 | 00:23:26,636 | of the real person, Roy Cohn. | of the real person, Roy Cohn. |
332 | 00:23:26,803 | 00:23:30,390 | I think Mr. Vidal has lapsed into an uncharacteristic modesty | I think Mr. Vidal has lapsed into an uncharacteristic modesty |
333 | 00:23:30,557 | 00:23:33,143 | and I don't think he should; he's very articulate. | and I don't think he should; he's very articulate. |
334 | 00:23:33,310 | 00:23:38,815 | On talk shows, he's nerdy, creepy, but very sort of lawyerly, polite. | On talk shows, he's nerdy, creepy, but very sort of lawyerly, polite. |
335 | 00:23:38,982 | 00:23:40,358 | Everyone is Mr. and Mrs. | Everyone is Mr. and Mrs. |
336 | 00:23:41,276 | 00:23:44,821 | But in private, I think he was very different. | But in private, I think he was very different. |
337 | 00:23:51,244 | 00:23:56,833 | I first met Roy as everybody did in those days in El Morocco. In '56. | I first met Roy as everybody did in those days in El Morocco. In '56. |
338 | 00:23:58,585 | 00:24:00,628 | And he of course was famous by then. | And he of course was famous by then. |
339 | 00:24:01,963 | 00:24:06,968 | El Morocco was the chicest and most exclusive nightclub of the time. | El Morocco was the chicest and most exclusive nightclub of the time. |
340 | 00:24:07,135 | 00:24:11,472 | It was the kind of place where only very high society went, | It was the kind of place where only very high society went, |
341 | 00:24:11,639 | 00:24:14,600 | plus some loose characters | plus some loose characters |
342 | 00:24:14,767 | 00:24:20,022 | who were welcome because it gave sort of some spice to the place. | who were welcome because it gave sort of some spice to the place. |
343 | 00:24:20,189 | 00:24:22,650 | And that's where Roy made all his contacts. | And that's where Roy made all his contacts. |
344 | 00:24:23,734 | 00:24:27,363 | He would come in with those hooded lids, looking so ominous. | He would come in with those hooded lids, looking so ominous. |
345 | 00:24:27,530 | 00:24:31,534 | He was like Dracula coming out of his box at midnight. | He was like Dracula coming out of his box at midnight. |
346 | 00:24:34,453 | 00:24:37,290 | What came out of the McCarthy period, even its disasters, | What came out of the McCarthy period, even its disasters, |
347 | 00:24:37,456 | 00:24:40,793 | was the feeling that I was different from most other lawyers. | was the feeling that I was different from most other lawyers. |
348 | 00:24:40,960 | 00:24:44,088 | People didn't perceive me as a typical bill-by-the-hour, | People didn't perceive me as a typical bill-by-the-hour, |
349 | 00:24:44,255 | 00:24:48,342 | do-nothing shyster, but as someone who could be trusted. | do-nothing shyster, but as someone who could be trusted. |
350 | 00:24:48,509 | 00:24:51,470 | When people call Roy Cohn to solicit his services, | When people call Roy Cohn to solicit his services, |
351 | 00:24:51,637 | 00:24:53,222 | what are they buying? | what are they buying? |
352 | 00:24:53,389 | 00:24:56,016 | I think a principal thing they're buying is scare value. | I think a principal thing they're buying is scare value. |
353 | 00:24:56,183 | 00:25:00,896 | It was not in his briefcase, they do not allege it was in his briefcase. | It was not in his briefcase, they do not allege it was in his briefcase. |
354 | 00:25:01,063 | 00:25:03,857 | I've read the complaint and I was in court and you weren't. | I've read the complaint and I was in court and you weren't. |
355 | 00:25:04,024 | 00:25:07,653 | People hired Roy because Roy was without conscience, | People hired Roy because Roy was without conscience, |
356 | 00:25:07,820 | 00:25:11,949 | and Roy would get them a victory because he knew no rules. | and Roy would get them a victory because he knew no rules. |
357 | 00:25:12,116 | 00:25:13,951 | He would do whatever he needed to win. | He would do whatever he needed to win. |
358 | 00:25:17,412 | 00:25:21,333 | It has been mentioned in the media that you have represented | It has been mentioned in the media that you have represented |
359 | 00:25:21,500 | 00:25:24,419 | or continue to represent the world's richest men. | or continue to represent the world's richest men. |
360 | 00:25:24,586 | 00:25:27,965 | Okay. There's a prominent New York real estate tycoon, | Okay. There's a prominent New York real estate tycoon, |
361 | 00:25:28,131 | 00:25:31,051 | very young man who's made it. | very young man who's made it. |
362 | 00:25:31,218 | 00:25:35,013 | He started off with a few million dollars that his father had made. | He started off with a few million dollars that his father had made. |
363 | 00:25:35,180 | 00:25:37,057 | Maybe 10 million, 20 million. | Maybe 10 million, 20 million. |
364 | 00:25:37,224 | 00:25:42,145 | -Can we identify him? -Donald Trump. | -Can we identify him? -Donald Trump. |
365 | 00:25:44,022 | 00:25:47,150 | Is it fair to say that he's the most powerful real estate guy in New York? | Is it fair to say that he's the most powerful real estate guy in New York? |
366 | 00:25:47,317 | 00:25:48,693 | I think it is. | I think it is. |
367 | 00:25:50,195 | 00:25:54,032 | His currency was money, but he was a boy from Queens. | His currency was money, but he was a boy from Queens. |
368 | 00:25:54,199 | 00:25:56,368 | And he was a sheltered boy from Queens. | And he was a sheltered boy from Queens. |
369 | 00:25:56,534 | 00:25:58,411 | He didn't have any access to the big city, | He didn't have any access to the big city, |
370 | 00:25:58,578 | 00:26:01,456 | so at first, Roy brought him into New York. | so at first, Roy brought him into New York. |
371 | 00:26:01,623 | 00:26:04,542 | I met him at a supper club, which I rarely go to. | I met him at a supper club, which I rarely go to. |
372 | 00:26:04,709 | 00:26:07,212 | I have so much work to do during the day, | I have so much work to do during the day, |
373 | 00:26:07,378 | 00:26:10,173 | and I guess the same can be said of Donald. | and I guess the same can be said of Donald. |
374 | 00:26:10,340 | 00:26:11,758 | He hates anything social, | He hates anything social, |
375 | 00:26:11,925 | 00:26:14,427 | and he really doesn't like anything political very much either. | and he really doesn't like anything political very much either. |
376 | 00:26:15,720 | 00:26:19,724 | One night at Le Club, we were seated at tables next to each other. | One night at Le Club, we were seated at tables next to each other. |
377 | 00:26:19,891 | 00:26:23,478 | He said, 'I've spent two days with these establishment law firms | He said, 'I've spent two days with these establishment law firms |
378 | 00:26:23,644 | 00:26:26,105 | about a case we have.' It was a civil rights case. | about a case we have.' It was a civil rights case. |
379 | 00:26:26,272 | 00:26:30,568 | 'I've followed your career and you seem a little bit crazy like I am, | 'I've followed your career and you seem a little bit crazy like I am, |
380 | 00:26:30,735 | 00:26:33,946 | and you stand up to the establishment. Can I come see ya?' | and you stand up to the establishment. Can I come see ya?' |
381 | 00:26:34,989 | 00:26:37,450 | This was a lawsuit against numerous landlords in New York | This was a lawsuit against numerous landlords in New York |
382 | 00:26:37,617 | 00:26:40,453 | and I didn't like it because it wasn't true. | and I didn't like it because it wasn't true. |
383 | 00:26:40,620 | 00:26:42,580 | We'd never discriminate, we don't believe in it. | We'd never discriminate, we don't believe in it. |
384 | 00:26:42,747 | 00:26:47,293 | I thought I should fight and other landlords didn't. | I thought I should fight and other landlords didn't. |
385 | 00:26:48,753 | 00:26:51,964 | Trump was delighted by Roy's attorney's response | Trump was delighted by Roy's attorney's response |
386 | 00:26:52,131 | 00:26:54,508 | to this suit against the two Trumps. | to this suit against the two Trumps. |
387 | 00:26:54,675 | 00:26:57,720 | And that was to countersue the U.S. Justice department. | And that was to countersue the U.S. Justice department. |
388 | 00:26:57,887 | 00:27:01,515 | Roy called them Nazis. Roy called them the Ku Klux Klan. | Roy called them Nazis. Roy called them the Ku Klux Klan. |
389 | 00:27:02,600 | 00:27:06,896 | But the whole point was to resist. To throw it back at 'em. | But the whole point was to resist. To throw it back at 'em. |
390 | 00:27:07,062 | 00:27:10,190 | And Trump fell in love with that: never admit that you're wrong. | And Trump fell in love with that: never admit that you're wrong. |
391 | 00:27:10,357 | 00:27:12,526 | And, the suit was settled. | And, the suit was settled. |
392 | 00:27:12,693 | 00:27:15,738 | You serve a complaint, start an action, and then there's a settlement. | You serve a complaint, start an action, and then there's a settlement. |
393 | 00:27:15,904 | 00:27:22,202 | Roy settled 65-75% of all his cases out of court. | Roy settled 65-75% of all his cases out of court. |
394 | 00:27:24,079 | 00:27:26,248 | He used his influence with magazines, | He used his influence with magazines, |
395 | 00:27:26,415 | 00:27:31,670 | newspapers and individual journalists to get people to settle lawsuits. | newspapers and individual journalists to get people to settle lawsuits. |
396 | 00:27:31,837 | 00:27:33,213 | The fear of publicity | The fear of publicity |
397 | 00:27:33,380 | 00:27:36,883 | can be a very important factor in inducing a settlement. | can be a very important factor in inducing a settlement. |
398 | 00:27:37,050 | 00:27:40,137 | And we'd all be crazy if we didn't acknowledge that as a fact. | And we'd all be crazy if we didn't acknowledge that as a fact. |
399 | 00:27:41,388 | 00:27:45,142 | Roy grew to understand he could use me | Roy grew to understand he could use me |
400 | 00:27:45,308 | 00:27:47,185 | when I joined the New York Post. | when I joined the New York Post. |
401 | 00:27:49,020 | 00:27:54,442 | There were stories he was doing, and it would've served him | There were stories he was doing, and it would've served him |
402 | 00:27:54,609 | 00:27:57,779 | if I would take care of the people he didn't like. | if I would take care of the people he didn't like. |
403 | 00:27:57,946 | 00:28:00,865 | -How did he pull that off? -By asking me. | -How did he pull that off? -By asking me. |
404 | 00:28:02,450 | 00:28:07,872 | And I did it, because he was my friend. So it's loyalty. | And I did it, because he was my friend. So it's loyalty. |
405 | 00:28:11,167 | 00:28:15,463 | A good part of my life legally and extra legally, | A good part of my life legally and extra legally, |
406 | 00:28:15,630 | 00:28:19,509 | consists of having friends in all walks of life. | consists of having friends in all walks of life. |
407 | 00:28:23,846 | 00:28:29,268 | The way I met Rupert Murdoch, when they wanted a front page interview | The way I met Rupert Murdoch, when they wanted a front page interview |
408 | 00:28:29,435 | 00:28:32,397 | with Carmine Galante, the Godfather. | with Carmine Galante, the Godfather. |
409 | 00:28:32,563 | 00:28:35,358 | I never heard of a Godfather giving a newspaper interview before. | I never heard of a Godfather giving a newspaper interview before. |
410 | 00:28:36,651 | 00:28:39,362 | The metropolitan editor to The Post called me and he said | The metropolitan editor to The Post called me and he said |
411 | 00:28:39,529 | 00:28:41,239 | 'We really want this interview,' and the boss says: | 'We really want this interview,' and the boss says: |
412 | 00:28:41,405 | 00:28:43,825 | 'He's read about you. If you put your mind to something you can get it done.' | 'He's read about you. If you put your mind to something you can get it done.' |
413 | 00:28:44,992 | 00:28:46,702 | -Did you do it? -Yes. | -Did you do it? -Yes. |
414 | 00:28:52,208 | 00:28:55,670 | He wanted to make himself this indispensable power broker. | He wanted to make himself this indispensable power broker. |
415 | 00:28:55,836 | 00:28:57,672 | Sort of like the original fixer. | Sort of like the original fixer. |
416 | 00:29:00,674 | 00:29:02,259 | There was no clear boundary | There was no clear boundary |
417 | 00:29:02,426 | 00:29:04,804 | between his personal life and his professional life. | between his personal life and his professional life. |
418 | 00:29:04,970 | 00:29:06,347 | It all kind of overflowed. | It all kind of overflowed. |
419 | 00:29:10,059 | 00:29:15,272 | The townhouse was this combination of residence and place of business. | The townhouse was this combination of residence and place of business. |
420 | 00:29:16,982 | 00:29:19,485 | Upstairs there were floors of offices. | Upstairs there were floors of offices. |
421 | 00:29:20,736 | 00:29:23,280 | Second and third floors were his apartment. | Second and third floors were his apartment. |
422 | 00:29:25,282 | 00:29:28,410 | And then, way up top was the roof deck. | And then, way up top was the roof deck. |
423 | 00:29:28,577 | 00:29:31,371 | He would sit up there with his shirt off | He would sit up there with his shirt off |
424 | 00:29:31,538 | 00:29:36,502 | and he would even receive clients while he was doing this. | and he would even receive clients while he was doing this. |
425 | 00:29:36,668 | 00:29:40,422 | I assume that this law firm had been in existence for many years, | I assume that this law firm had been in existence for many years, |
426 | 00:29:40,589 | 00:29:42,716 | but his name was not on the masthead. | but his name was not on the masthead. |
427 | 00:29:45,802 | 00:29:50,223 | And my understanding is that he had divested himself of all his assets | And my understanding is that he had divested himself of all his assets |
428 | 00:29:50,390 | 00:29:53,894 | so that he could not be sued; everything was owned by the firm. | so that he could not be sued; everything was owned by the firm. |
429 | 00:29:55,562 | 00:29:58,356 | It's true? That you personally own nothing at all? | It's true? That you personally own nothing at all? |
430 | 00:29:58,523 | 00:30:00,567 | One hundred percent true. | One hundred percent true. |
431 | 00:30:00,734 | 00:30:04,487 | Reason number one, obviously, is my dispute with Internal Revenue. | Reason number one, obviously, is my dispute with Internal Revenue. |
432 | 00:30:04,654 | 00:30:07,908 | I made up my mind I was not going to have bank accounts. | I made up my mind I was not going to have bank accounts. |
433 | 00:30:08,074 | 00:30:11,953 | I carry cash, I also have no credit cards. | I carry cash, I also have no credit cards. |
434 | 00:30:12,120 | 00:30:14,122 | You live very very well. | You live very very well. |
435 | 00:30:14,289 | 00:30:17,125 | You have jets, limousines, yachts at your disposal. | You have jets, limousines, yachts at your disposal. |
436 | 00:30:17,292 | 00:30:21,212 | I have very rich friends and clients who have confidence in me. | I have very rich friends and clients who have confidence in me. |
437 | 00:30:21,379 | 00:30:23,465 | I can name you ten right now. I could call up and say | I can name you ten right now. I could call up and say |
438 | 00:30:23,631 | 00:30:26,718 | 'Look, I hate to trouble you, but I'm having a few problems. | 'Look, I hate to trouble you, but I'm having a few problems. |
439 | 00:30:26,885 | 00:30:31,514 | Would it be convenient for you to loan me a large amount of money?' | Would it be convenient for you to loan me a large amount of money?' |
440 | 00:30:31,681 | 00:30:34,017 | The answer would be, instantly, 'Yes. ' | The answer would be, instantly, 'Yes. ' |
441 | 00:30:35,685 | 00:30:40,481 | Roy Cohn manages to spend I guess a half a million dollars a year | Roy Cohn manages to spend I guess a half a million dollars a year |
442 | 00:30:40,648 | 00:30:43,526 | as expenses without paying a penny of tax on it. | as expenses without paying a penny of tax on it. |
443 | 00:30:43,693 | 00:30:46,237 | When we talk expenses, now that isn't so. | When we talk expenses, now that isn't so. |
444 | 00:30:46,404 | 00:30:49,198 | First of all, I have paid an astronomical amount of taxes. | First of all, I have paid an astronomical amount of taxes. |
445 | 00:30:49,365 | 00:30:53,494 | I very frankly don't want to earn any more than I have to earn, | I very frankly don't want to earn any more than I have to earn, |
446 | 00:30:53,661 | 00:30:59,584 | because I don't like the way this country punishes the workers, | because I don't like the way this country punishes the workers, |
447 | 00:30:59,750 | 00:31:01,919 | the middle class, the blue collar people, | the middle class, the blue collar people, |
448 | 00:31:02,086 | 00:31:04,505 | the white collar people; I think it's lousy. | the white collar people; I think it's lousy. |
449 | 00:31:06,173 | 00:31:10,302 | Roy Cohn wanted to die owing the IRS millions. | Roy Cohn wanted to die owing the IRS millions. |
450 | 00:31:11,971 | 00:31:13,431 | He never paid his bills. | He never paid his bills. |
451 | 00:31:20,104 | 00:31:25,317 | Here we have a bill from a lease for a 1983 Porsche Cabriolet. | Here we have a bill from a lease for a 1983 Porsche Cabriolet. |
452 | 00:31:25,484 | 00:31:28,570 | This vehicle was repossessed on 4/30/84 | This vehicle was repossessed on 4/30/84 |
453 | 00:31:28,737 | 00:31:32,866 | for reason of 3 months delinquency.' In Roy's handwriting, | for reason of 3 months delinquency.' In Roy's handwriting, |
454 | 00:31:33,033 | 00:31:35,285 | 'Lillian,' one of the women who worked at Saxe, Bacon, Bolan, | 'Lillian,' one of the women who worked at Saxe, Bacon, Bolan, |
455 | 00:31:35,452 | 00:31:38,872 | 'please try to close it out with no payment. ' | 'please try to close it out with no payment. ' |
456 | 00:31:39,039 | 00:31:43,418 | The Four Seasons Clift Hotel in San Francisco, | The Four Seasons Clift Hotel in San Francisco, |
457 | 00:31:43,585 | 00:31:46,797 | Roy's handwriting, 'not necessary to pay.' | Roy's handwriting, 'not necessary to pay.' |
458 | 00:31:46,964 | 00:31:53,136 | Unpaid laundry bill of $1,598.21. | Unpaid laundry bill of $1,598.21. |
459 | 00:31:54,221 | 00:31:57,474 | The 21 Club, ten and a half grand. | The 21 Club, ten and a half grand. |
460 | 00:31:57,641 | 00:32:00,352 | Sheridan Hotel, 1,100 bucks in Hawaii. | Sheridan Hotel, 1,100 bucks in Hawaii. |
461 | 00:32:02,020 | 00:32:05,315 | Did any of these establishments really go after him? | Did any of these establishments really go after him? |
462 | 00:32:05,482 | 00:32:09,486 | There were suits against him, but did they collect? | There were suits against him, but did they collect? |
463 | 00:32:15,659 | 00:32:20,747 | Roy wanted to have some Indonesian and Ming artifacts. | Roy wanted to have some Indonesian and Ming artifacts. |
464 | 00:32:20,914 | 00:32:22,499 | I have a dealer here. | I have a dealer here. |
465 | 00:32:22,666 | 00:32:25,043 | So, Joey said, 'Let's take Roy,' | So, Joey said, 'Let's take Roy,' |
466 | 00:32:25,210 | 00:32:28,630 | and I said, 'No not good because Roy doesn't pay his bills.' | and I said, 'No not good because Roy doesn't pay his bills.' |
467 | 00:32:29,672 | 00:32:35,261 | Roy wanted to go anyway and he went and he picked out three items. | Roy wanted to go anyway and he went and he picked out three items. |
468 | 00:32:35,428 | 00:32:37,305 | It was about $70,000. | It was about $70,000. |
469 | 00:32:38,473 | 00:32:40,558 | Six months went by, he hadn't paid. | Six months went by, he hadn't paid. |
470 | 00:32:40,725 | 00:32:43,144 | Finally, the dealer came up to me and he says, | Finally, the dealer came up to me and he says, |
471 | 00:32:43,311 | 00:32:46,356 | 'Your friend, he don't pay nothing.' | 'Your friend, he don't pay nothing.' |
472 | 00:32:46,522 | 00:32:48,066 | And I said, 'Not to worry.' | And I said, 'Not to worry.' |
473 | 00:32:49,692 | 00:32:54,363 | I brought my car down there, and I went and knocked on the door. | I brought my car down there, and I went and knocked on the door. |
474 | 00:32:54,530 | 00:32:56,908 | Elvira was his longtime housekeeper, | Elvira was his longtime housekeeper, |
475 | 00:32:57,074 | 00:32:59,160 | and she knew me for years and years and years, | and she knew me for years and years and years, |
476 | 00:32:59,327 | 00:33:01,037 | and I said 'I came to collect something.' | and I said 'I came to collect something.' |
477 | 00:33:01,204 | 00:33:02,997 | She says 'Go ahead, take whatever you want.' | She says 'Go ahead, take whatever you want.' |
478 | 00:33:03,164 | 00:33:07,627 | So I went in with my driver and we took out the 3 pieces of art, | So I went in with my driver and we took out the 3 pieces of art, |
479 | 00:33:08,669 | 00:33:10,630 | put them in the car, brought them back to the dealer. | put them in the car, brought them back to the dealer. |
480 | 00:33:11,672 | 00:33:16,844 | That night he took me to dinner, he never mentioned it, | That night he took me to dinner, he never mentioned it, |
481 | 00:33:17,011 | 00:33:19,138 | he never brought it up, ever. | he never brought it up, ever. |
482 | 00:33:20,890 | 00:33:23,350 | As we walked out, he said to the maître d, | As we walked out, he said to the maître d, |
483 | 00:33:23,517 | 00:33:25,019 | 'The check is in the mail. ' | 'The check is in the mail. ' |
484 | 00:33:35,237 | 00:33:38,198 | I had been very active in judicial reform politics. | I had been very active in judicial reform politics. |
485 | 00:33:39,575 | 00:33:45,873 | So, in 1979 I decided that we needed a task force on Roy Cohn. | So, in 1979 I decided that we needed a task force on Roy Cohn. |
486 | 00:33:46,039 | 00:33:48,041 | A lot of people knew that what Roy Cohn had | A lot of people knew that what Roy Cohn had |
487 | 00:33:48,208 | 00:33:50,878 | was enormous power with the media. | was enormous power with the media. |
488 | 00:33:51,044 | 00:33:54,089 | And we were trying to create a counterweight, essentially, | And we were trying to create a counterweight, essentially, |
489 | 00:33:54,256 | 00:33:57,509 | and also document what was really going on with Roy Cohn. | and also document what was really going on with Roy Cohn. |
490 | 00:34:00,887 | 00:34:05,434 | Roy Cohn was a hidden investor in a series of businesses | Roy Cohn was a hidden investor in a series of businesses |
491 | 00:34:05,600 | 00:34:09,104 | that dealt with all cash primarily. | that dealt with all cash primarily. |
492 | 00:34:09,271 | 00:34:11,064 | Among them was parking lots. | Among them was parking lots. |
493 | 00:34:14,276 | 00:34:18,613 | His cash cow was city owned parking lots by the water | His cash cow was city owned parking lots by the water |
494 | 00:34:18,780 | 00:34:22,492 | and he controlled the companies that had the parking lots | and he controlled the companies that had the parking lots |
495 | 00:34:22,659 | 00:34:26,037 | that were city owned and it was an enormous amount of money. | that were city owned and it was an enormous amount of money. |
496 | 00:34:28,039 | 00:34:31,334 | The guy who leased those parking lots to him, Rick Mazzeo, | The guy who leased those parking lots to him, Rick Mazzeo, |
497 | 00:34:31,501 | 00:34:34,129 | wound up under federal investigation | wound up under federal investigation |
498 | 00:34:34,295 | 00:34:37,090 | and they found his body in the trunk of a car, | and they found his body in the trunk of a car, |
499 | 00:34:37,257 | 00:34:42,053 | and all he did was give parking lots to Roy Cohn. | and all he did was give parking lots to Roy Cohn. |
500 | 00:34:42,220 | 00:34:45,515 | That's what he did for a living. | That's what he did for a living. |
501 | 00:34:45,682 | 00:34:50,853 | Roy Cohn was one of the most evil presences, | Roy Cohn was one of the most evil presences, |
502 | 00:34:51,020 | 00:34:53,856 | and I mean evil presences, | and I mean evil presences, |
503 | 00:34:54,023 | 00:34:58,069 | in our society during most of my adult life. | in our society during most of my adult life. |
504 | 00:34:58,236 | 00:35:01,864 | He was not just a lawyer for the mob, | He was not just a lawyer for the mob, |
505 | 00:35:02,031 | 00:35:03,783 | he was an active participant. | he was an active participant. |
506 | 00:35:07,245 | 00:35:12,124 | There were times where I'd be farmed out to pick up something or other. | There were times where I'd be farmed out to pick up something or other. |
507 | 00:35:12,291 | 00:35:16,545 | One time I went to Philadelphia to some federal penitentiary | One time I went to Philadelphia to some federal penitentiary |
508 | 00:35:16,712 | 00:35:19,256 | to pick up parole papers for whoever the Godfather was. | to pick up parole papers for whoever the Godfather was. |
509 | 00:35:20,466 | 00:35:24,136 | There were trips over to New Jersey for various client matters. | There were trips over to New Jersey for various client matters. |
510 | 00:35:25,971 | 00:35:28,557 | It sounds almost like you're a gangster now. | It sounds almost like you're a gangster now. |
511 | 00:35:28,724 | 00:35:32,228 | Is this what drew such, alleged, let me, let me put it this way, | Is this what drew such, alleged, let me, let me put it this way, |
512 | 00:35:32,394 | 00:35:38,609 | Godfathers, Galante, Genovese, 'Fat Tony' Salerno... | Godfathers, Galante, Genovese, 'Fat Tony' Salerno... |
513 | 00:35:38,776 | 00:35:41,070 | Let's eliminate Tony Salerno right away. | Let's eliminate Tony Salerno right away. |
514 | 00:35:41,237 | 00:35:44,031 | Tony is a, is a good guy. Tony is a gambler. | Tony is a, is a good guy. Tony is a gambler. |
515 | 00:35:44,198 | 00:35:48,369 | He's filed income taxes, paid heavy income taxes for over 40 years. | He's filed income taxes, paid heavy income taxes for over 40 years. |
516 | 00:35:48,535 | 00:35:51,789 | I like him better than a lot of my other clients. | I like him better than a lot of my other clients. |
517 | 00:35:51,955 | 00:35:54,625 | I know that I can take his word. | I know that I can take his word. |
518 | 00:35:54,792 | 00:35:56,210 | I know he has guts. | I know he has guts. |
519 | 00:35:56,376 | 00:35:58,962 | I found him to be a warm, decent human being | I found him to be a warm, decent human being |
520 | 00:35:59,129 | 00:36:02,674 | in his treatment of other people who needed help. | in his treatment of other people who needed help. |
521 | 00:36:03,842 | 00:36:08,221 | What are the charges against your client Anthony 'Fat Tony' Solerno? | What are the charges against your client Anthony 'Fat Tony' Solerno? |
522 | 00:36:09,473 | 00:36:14,770 | This indictment says that they supervise gambling, prostitution... | This indictment says that they supervise gambling, prostitution... |
523 | 00:36:14,936 | 00:36:17,773 | They talk about a cement company and labor piece, | They talk about a cement company and labor piece, |
524 | 00:36:17,939 | 00:36:19,357 | and that's really about all. | and that's really about all. |
525 | 00:36:19,524 | 00:36:22,611 | If there's substance to this, I just don't see it. | If there's substance to this, I just don't see it. |
526 | 00:36:22,778 | 00:36:25,322 | Tony, you've read the charges in this indictment, | Tony, you've read the charges in this indictment, |
527 | 00:36:25,489 | 00:36:28,700 | did you do any of those things, any one? | did you do any of those things, any one? |
528 | 00:36:28,867 | 00:36:30,243 | All false. | All false. |
529 | 00:36:33,121 | 00:36:38,501 | In 1981 there was a strike of cement workers. | In 1981 there was a strike of cement workers. |
530 | 00:36:38,668 | 00:36:42,714 | No ready mix concrete project in Manhattan | No ready mix concrete project in Manhattan |
531 | 00:36:42,881 | 00:36:45,717 | was allowed to receive concrete by the Union. | was allowed to receive concrete by the Union. |
532 | 00:36:45,884 | 00:36:49,762 | Only Trump Tower got their ready mix concrete. | Only Trump Tower got their ready mix concrete. |
533 | 00:36:52,473 | 00:36:55,435 | Trump Tower when it was completed was the tallest concrete structure, | Trump Tower when it was completed was the tallest concrete structure, |
534 | 00:36:55,602 | 00:36:59,564 | all concrete structure in the US; no steel in the building. | all concrete structure in the US; no steel in the building. |
535 | 00:36:59,731 | 00:37:01,899 | Donald made that choice at a time when the mob | Donald made that choice at a time when the mob |
536 | 00:37:02,066 | 00:37:04,360 | completely controlled the concrete industry in New York. | completely controlled the concrete industry in New York. |
537 | 00:37:05,778 | 00:37:08,948 | Trump tower and Trump Plaza, his co-op project, | Trump tower and Trump Plaza, his co-op project, |
538 | 00:37:09,115 | 00:37:11,451 | they were built by 'Fat Tony' Salerno's company. | they were built by 'Fat Tony' Salerno's company. |
539 | 00:37:12,493 | 00:37:16,080 | Donald met in Roy Cohn's office with 'Fat Tony' Salerno | Donald met in Roy Cohn's office with 'Fat Tony' Salerno |
540 | 00:37:16,247 | 00:37:18,916 | during the very time period that they were in construction. | during the very time period that they were in construction. |
541 | 00:37:20,418 | 00:37:23,588 | Through Cohn, Trump received access | Through Cohn, Trump received access |
542 | 00:37:23,754 | 00:37:27,466 | to the worst organized crime figures on the New York crime scene. | to the worst organized crime figures on the New York crime scene. |
543 | 00:37:31,637 | 00:37:34,557 | Open up the files! No to the FBI! | Open up the files! No to the FBI! |
544 | 00:37:39,270 | 00:37:42,314 | Open up the files! No to the FBI! | Open up the files! No to the FBI! |
545 | 00:37:44,859 | 00:37:49,321 | After we were adopted, we had extraordinarily normal lives. | After we were adopted, we had extraordinarily normal lives. |
546 | 00:37:50,823 | 00:37:55,285 | Went to high school, went to college, got married, had kids. | Went to high school, went to college, got married, had kids. |
547 | 00:37:55,452 | 00:37:57,371 | Very few people that we knew | Very few people that we knew |
548 | 00:37:57,538 | 00:38:00,332 | knew that we were the sons of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg. | knew that we were the sons of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg. |
549 | 00:38:02,126 | 00:38:06,213 | It wasn't until 1973 Robby and I made a decision | It wasn't until 1973 Robby and I made a decision |
550 | 00:38:06,380 | 00:38:09,049 | to come out publicly and reclaim our parents. | to come out publicly and reclaim our parents. |
551 | 00:38:10,842 | 00:38:13,220 | Michael and Robert Rosenberg, age ten and six, | Michael and Robert Rosenberg, age ten and six, |
552 | 00:38:13,387 | 00:38:15,889 | paid a final visit to their parents at Sing Sing. | paid a final visit to their parents at Sing Sing. |
553 | 00:38:16,056 | 00:38:18,058 | 25 years later, they and their supporters | 25 years later, they and their supporters |
554 | 00:38:18,225 | 00:38:20,143 | are still fighting to clear the Rosenberg's name, | are still fighting to clear the Rosenberg's name, |
555 | 00:38:20,310 | 00:38:24,147 | still insisting their parents were railroaded in a climate of hysteria. | still insisting their parents were railroaded in a climate of hysteria. |
556 | 00:38:24,314 | 00:38:28,026 | They have taken the name of Meeropol after the family which adopted them. | They have taken the name of Meeropol after the family which adopted them. |
557 | 00:38:28,193 | 00:38:30,362 | Working through the Freedom of Information Act, | Working through the Freedom of Information Act, |
558 | 00:38:30,529 | 00:38:32,072 | the Meeropols have compelled the government | the Meeropols have compelled the government |
559 | 00:38:32,239 | 00:38:34,908 | to release one hundred thousand pages of secret documents. | to release one hundred thousand pages of secret documents. |
560 | 00:38:35,075 | 00:38:37,494 | Among other things, the papers suggest the Rosenbergs | Among other things, the papers suggest the Rosenbergs |
561 | 00:38:37,661 | 00:38:40,080 | might have been granted a last minute reprieve | might have been granted a last minute reprieve |
562 | 00:38:40,247 | 00:38:43,625 | had they volunteered to confess and testify about their activities... | had they volunteered to confess and testify about their activities... |
563 | 00:38:43,792 | 00:38:47,837 | It's the era of Watergate, it's the era of Nixon being forced to resign. | It's the era of Watergate, it's the era of Nixon being forced to resign. |
564 | 00:38:49,047 | 00:38:52,133 | This is a time to launch a campaign. | This is a time to launch a campaign. |
565 | 00:38:52,300 | 00:38:55,720 | FBI close down, open up the files! | FBI close down, open up the files! |
566 | 00:39:02,977 | 00:39:04,979 | I remember my brother in speeches | I remember my brother in speeches |
567 | 00:39:05,146 | 00:39:09,317 | saying that by exposing the frame-up of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, | saying that by exposing the frame-up of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, |
568 | 00:39:09,484 | 00:39:12,695 | we were fighting Watergate at its roots, and that's true. | we were fighting Watergate at its roots, and that's true. |
569 | 00:39:15,782 | 00:39:20,411 | We were actually sticking it to the government, and that felt good. | We were actually sticking it to the government, and that felt good. |
570 | 00:39:22,163 | 00:39:25,708 | We felt confidence in ourselves, that we could make the case. | We felt confidence in ourselves, that we could make the case. |
571 | 00:39:26,792 | 00:39:32,340 | I took a leave from my job, Robby was only working part time, | I took a leave from my job, Robby was only working part time, |
572 | 00:39:32,506 | 00:39:35,092 | we wrote our book together, we went on speaking tours. | we wrote our book together, we went on speaking tours. |
573 | 00:39:36,177 | 00:39:42,391 | Basically, from spring of 1974 through June of 1978, | Basically, from spring of 1974 through June of 1978, |
574 | 00:39:42,558 | 00:39:44,226 | I had three jobs. | I had three jobs. |
575 | 00:39:44,393 | 00:39:46,395 | I had my job to earn money, | I had my job to earn money, |
576 | 00:39:46,562 | 00:39:49,607 | my job to be your and Greg's dad and mom's husband, | my job to be your and Greg's dad and mom's husband, |
577 | 00:39:49,773 | 00:39:53,319 | and the job of public Rosenberg fighting to reopen the case. | and the job of public Rosenberg fighting to reopen the case. |
578 | 00:39:53,485 | 00:39:58,574 | I'd like to see a judicial judgment, not just that my parents were innocent, | I'd like to see a judicial judgment, not just that my parents were innocent, |
579 | 00:39:58,741 | 00:40:00,951 | but that individuals | but that individuals |
580 | 00:40:01,118 | 00:40:04,913 | conspired criminally to convict them falsely. | conspired criminally to convict them falsely. |
581 | 00:40:05,080 | 00:40:07,416 | I'd like to see the perpetrators locked up. | I'd like to see the perpetrators locked up. |
582 | 00:40:10,169 | 00:40:14,339 | This was the 1970's, so you know sex, drugs, and rock and roll. | This was the 1970's, so you know sex, drugs, and rock and roll. |
583 | 00:40:15,424 | 00:40:19,177 | I was relatively serious, didn't do much drugs by any means. | I was relatively serious, didn't do much drugs by any means. |
584 | 00:40:20,679 | 00:40:22,055 | I liked music. | I liked music. |
585 | 00:40:23,432 | 00:40:25,517 | My music experience was sitting around in the living room | My music experience was sitting around in the living room |
586 | 00:40:25,684 | 00:40:28,520 | with four people playing guitar singing songs. | with four people playing guitar singing songs. |
587 | 00:41:05,932 | 00:41:07,684 | -Do you go there for fun? -Sure. | -Do you go there for fun? -Sure. |
588 | 00:41:07,851 | 00:41:09,477 | Do we see Roy Cohn on the dance floor? | Do we see Roy Cohn on the dance floor? |
589 | 00:41:09,644 | 00:41:13,898 | I like to go there and watch. | I like to go there and watch. |
590 | 00:41:14,065 | 00:41:17,235 | If they go back to Viennese Waltz I might come back into style. | If they go back to Viennese Waltz I might come back into style. |
591 | 00:41:24,575 | 00:41:26,828 | You look to your left and you see a bunch of kooks. | You look to your left and you see a bunch of kooks. |
592 | 00:41:26,994 | 00:41:29,664 | You look to your right you see movie stars, ambassadors, | You look to your right you see movie stars, ambassadors, |
593 | 00:41:29,831 | 00:41:34,085 | senators, congressmen and it's a kick, it's just a thing all of its own. | senators, congressmen and it's a kick, it's just a thing all of its own. |
594 | 00:41:40,800 | 00:41:43,469 | Why was Roy Cohn involved with Studio 54? | Why was Roy Cohn involved with Studio 54? |
595 | 00:41:43,636 | 00:41:46,263 | It was the hottest disco in the world, | It was the hottest disco in the world, |
596 | 00:41:46,430 | 00:41:49,100 | and somehow Roy was the lawyer for one of the partners | and somehow Roy was the lawyer for one of the partners |
597 | 00:41:49,266 | 00:41:51,560 | and also sort of the lawyer for Studio 54. | and also sort of the lawyer for Studio 54. |
598 | 00:41:51,727 | 00:41:55,606 | We cooperate with the authorities, but if you want a bond poster | We cooperate with the authorities, but if you want a bond poster |
599 | 00:41:55,773 | 00:41:58,901 | that no one ever smoked a joint in a discotheque in the United States, | that no one ever smoked a joint in a discotheque in the United States, |
600 | 00:41:59,068 | 00:42:00,653 | you're talkin' to the wrong guy. | you're talkin' to the wrong guy. |
601 | 00:42:02,696 | 00:42:06,200 | Roy knew how to get permits taken care of. | Roy knew how to get permits taken care of. |
602 | 00:42:06,367 | 00:42:10,287 | Unions to do your bidding. The Mafia to leave you alone. | Unions to do your bidding. The Mafia to leave you alone. |
603 | 00:42:11,538 | 00:42:14,500 | Roy played Godfather to Rubell and Schrager. | Roy played Godfather to Rubell and Schrager. |
604 | 00:42:14,666 | 00:42:16,418 | And they rewarded him appropriately. | And they rewarded him appropriately. |
605 | 00:42:16,585 | 00:42:20,255 | They not only paid him well, but Roy had a key to the joint. | They not only paid him well, but Roy had a key to the joint. |
606 | 00:42:37,856 | 00:42:40,317 | Studio 54. It was the first time | Studio 54. It was the first time |
607 | 00:42:40,484 | 00:42:44,571 | that a nightclub operated on a completely different level. | that a nightclub operated on a completely different level. |
608 | 00:42:47,157 | 00:42:51,119 | There was sex upstairs. Open sex, mostly gay. | There was sex upstairs. Open sex, mostly gay. |
609 | 00:42:51,286 | 00:42:54,748 | And people dancing downstairs. And a hell of a lot of drugs. | And people dancing downstairs. And a hell of a lot of drugs. |
610 | 00:42:57,626 | 00:42:59,711 | And Roy was there a lot. | And Roy was there a lot. |
611 | 00:43:06,009 | 00:43:10,388 | Roy had alliances. I don't think he ever had relationships. | Roy had alliances. I don't think he ever had relationships. |
612 | 00:43:10,555 | 00:43:14,267 | Roy was not interested in a relationship. | Roy was not interested in a relationship. |
613 | 00:43:14,434 | 00:43:16,352 | For years, Roy pretended to be straight. | For years, Roy pretended to be straight. |
614 | 00:43:18,146 | 00:43:20,815 | To the extent of announcing he was engaged to Barbara Walters. | To the extent of announcing he was engaged to Barbara Walters. |
615 | 00:43:22,233 | 00:43:24,152 | We're getting married when we're both sixty. | We're getting married when we're both sixty. |
616 | 00:43:26,738 | 00:43:29,365 | Roy would call Cindy Adams and would say, you know, | Roy would call Cindy Adams and would say, you know, |
617 | 00:43:29,532 | 00:43:31,200 | 'would you put an item in your column? | 'would you put an item in your column? |
618 | 00:43:31,367 | 00:43:33,494 | Barbara Walters and I may get married.' | Barbara Walters and I may get married.' |
619 | 00:43:35,455 | 00:43:38,249 | I knew the boyfriends. I can't remember who they were now. | I knew the boyfriends. I can't remember who they were now. |
620 | 00:43:38,416 | 00:43:40,459 | But they were nice looking and young. | But they were nice looking and young. |
621 | 00:43:42,753 | 00:43:44,338 | Should happen to me. | Should happen to me. |
622 | 00:43:44,505 | 00:43:48,718 | Absolutely, it was fine. Yes, of course I knew. | Absolutely, it was fine. Yes, of course I knew. |
623 | 00:43:50,303 | 00:43:51,679 | We all knew. | We all knew. |
624 | 00:43:55,474 | 00:44:00,062 | Homosexuality is an enigma. Even in this era of bold sexual mores, | Homosexuality is an enigma. Even in this era of bold sexual mores, |
625 | 00:44:00,229 | 00:44:03,983 | it remains a subject that people find disturbing, embarrassing. | it remains a subject that people find disturbing, embarrassing. |
626 | 00:44:04,150 | 00:44:07,486 | Most Americans are repelled by the meer notion of homosexuality. | Most Americans are repelled by the meer notion of homosexuality. |
627 | 00:44:07,653 | 00:44:10,364 | The homosexual, bitterly aware of his rejection, | The homosexual, bitterly aware of his rejection, |
628 | 00:44:10,531 | 00:44:12,449 | responds by going underground. | responds by going underground. |
629 | 00:44:17,079 | 00:44:22,668 | In the 70s, I was working, hooking at a bar called Rounds. | In the 70s, I was working, hooking at a bar called Rounds. |
630 | 00:44:25,796 | 00:44:28,674 | I was picked up by this guy that I thought was very attractive. | I was picked up by this guy that I thought was very attractive. |
631 | 00:44:28,841 | 00:44:32,052 | 'Great 'cause I'm going to get paid plus he's really cute. ' | 'Great 'cause I'm going to get paid plus he's really cute. ' |
632 | 00:44:34,096 | 00:44:40,310 | They wanted me to meet somebody. And they drove me deep in the woods. | They wanted me to meet somebody. And they drove me deep in the woods. |
633 | 00:44:42,312 | 00:44:45,482 | It was very secretive, it was cover operation like. | It was very secretive, it was cover operation like. |
634 | 00:44:53,907 | 00:44:59,329 | Sitting on the sofa was Roy in this black velour robe. | Sitting on the sofa was Roy in this black velour robe. |
635 | 00:44:59,496 | 00:45:05,085 | He was very tanned and very... you know, kinda lizard-like. | He was very tanned and very... you know, kinda lizard-like. |
636 | 00:45:05,252 | 00:45:06,878 | But like an old auntie, | But like an old auntie, |
637 | 00:45:07,045 | 00:45:09,297 | like that just came home from bingo and was cold. | like that just came home from bingo and was cold. |
638 | 00:45:10,757 | 00:45:13,843 | He asked me to sit down on the Sofa next to him. | He asked me to sit down on the Sofa next to him. |
639 | 00:45:14,010 | 00:45:17,514 | He made me a cocktail. I think I asked for a screwdriver. | He made me a cocktail. I think I asked for a screwdriver. |
640 | 00:45:19,140 | 00:45:24,145 | I saw an album of Mabel Mercer and Bobby Short | I saw an album of Mabel Mercer and Bobby Short |
641 | 00:45:24,312 | 00:45:26,022 | and I was a fan of this album. | and I was a fan of this album. |
642 | 00:45:29,776 | 00:45:33,029 | He was really surprised that I knew who Mabel Mercer was. | He was really surprised that I knew who Mabel Mercer was. |
643 | 00:45:35,573 | 00:45:38,618 | After a very long talk I went upstairs | After a very long talk I went upstairs |
644 | 00:45:38,785 | 00:45:42,622 | and had sex with this guy that I guess was his boyfriend. | and had sex with this guy that I guess was his boyfriend. |
645 | 00:45:43,706 | 00:45:46,751 | And then a couple weeks later it happened all over again | And then a couple weeks later it happened all over again |
646 | 00:45:46,918 | 00:45:51,506 | where they brought me to him but I thought we were friends. | where they brought me to him but I thought we were friends. |
647 | 00:45:56,093 | 00:46:01,057 | I said, 'what did you want me to come here for? | I said, 'what did you want me to come here for? |
648 | 00:46:01,223 | 00:46:02,600 | Was I suppose to have sex with you?' | Was I suppose to have sex with you?' |
649 | 00:46:06,771 | 00:46:12,359 | That's when it turned... in a very strange way. | That's when it turned... in a very strange way. |
650 | 00:46:16,280 | 00:46:18,282 | And he got angry with me. | And he got angry with me. |
651 | 00:46:18,449 | 00:46:23,329 | Didn't raise his voice so much as his eyes and the tone of voice was strange | Didn't raise his voice so much as his eyes and the tone of voice was strange |
652 | 00:46:23,495 | 00:46:26,915 | and he said, 'I asked you here to discuss music.' | and he said, 'I asked you here to discuss music.' |
653 | 00:46:27,082 | 00:46:28,959 | He was done with me at that point. | He was done with me at that point. |
654 | 00:46:29,126 | 00:46:32,546 | It's sort of like Blanche Dubois. | It's sort of like Blanche Dubois. |
655 | 00:46:32,713 | 00:46:35,799 | 'I don't want reality, I want dreams'. | 'I don't want reality, I want dreams'. |
656 | 00:46:40,220 | 00:46:45,183 | He came from a generation where you obviously couldn't be openly gay. | He came from a generation where you obviously couldn't be openly gay. |
657 | 00:46:45,350 | 00:46:47,311 | And work in the world that he was working in. | And work in the world that he was working in. |
658 | 00:46:50,522 | 00:46:54,067 | I remember that there was an assistant named Vincent. | I remember that there was an assistant named Vincent. |
659 | 00:46:54,234 | 00:46:58,155 | He was a young, good looking guy who kinda passed in | He was a young, good looking guy who kinda passed in |
660 | 00:46:58,321 | 00:47:00,282 | and out and gradually it dawned on me | and out and gradually it dawned on me |
661 | 00:47:00,449 | 00:47:02,617 | that there was probably some kind of personally relationship | that there was probably some kind of personally relationship |
662 | 00:47:02,784 | 00:47:04,286 | between him and Cohn. | between him and Cohn. |
663 | 00:47:04,453 | 00:47:06,454 | Did you remember I have a lunch date with Barbara Walters? | Did you remember I have a lunch date with Barbara Walters? |
664 | 00:47:06,621 | 00:47:08,248 | -When is that? -Today. | -When is that? -Today. |
665 | 00:47:08,415 | 00:47:11,918 | He knew how to be a gay man who was in the closet. | He knew how to be a gay man who was in the closet. |
666 | 00:47:12,085 | 00:47:14,296 | But he'll play games with it also. | But he'll play games with it also. |
667 | 00:47:15,463 | 00:47:19,634 | He was flaunting it in a certain sense and sort of daring people | He was flaunting it in a certain sense and sort of daring people |
668 | 00:47:19,801 | 00:47:23,346 | to see how much room there was to do whatever you wanted. | to see how much room there was to do whatever you wanted. |
669 | 00:47:34,983 | 00:47:38,069 | I'm basically an introvert, a private person. | I'm basically an introvert, a private person. |
670 | 00:47:40,113 | 00:47:41,656 | When I'm with my friends | When I'm with my friends |
671 | 00:47:41,823 | 00:47:45,201 | under circumstances of privacy that's what I really love. | under circumstances of privacy that's what I really love. |
672 | 00:47:45,368 | 00:47:50,123 | What makes my adrenaline go more than anything else is this combination. | What makes my adrenaline go more than anything else is this combination. |
673 | 00:47:50,289 | 00:47:53,292 | I can't have one without the other. Public and private. Right. | I can't have one without the other. Public and private. Right. |
674 | 00:47:55,336 | 00:47:59,590 | Many people were shocked that Roy Cohn appeared in Provincetown. | Many people were shocked that Roy Cohn appeared in Provincetown. |
675 | 00:47:59,757 | 00:48:03,469 | Which is probably the worlds leading summertime gay community. | Which is probably the worlds leading summertime gay community. |
676 | 00:48:04,512 | 00:48:08,641 | He was summering in Provincetown out in the open, quite conspicuously. | He was summering in Provincetown out in the open, quite conspicuously. |
677 | 00:48:16,232 | 00:48:19,693 | Roy loved the craziness of Provincetown. | Roy loved the craziness of Provincetown. |
678 | 00:48:19,860 | 00:48:22,988 | He loved the drinking, he loved the games, | He loved the drinking, he loved the games, |
679 | 00:48:23,155 | 00:48:25,491 | the social crap that went on downtown. | the social crap that went on downtown. |
680 | 00:48:29,954 | 00:48:33,040 | When I saw him, I was appalled that he was here. | When I saw him, I was appalled that he was here. |
681 | 00:48:35,209 | 00:48:38,128 | The only place I ever saw him in person that I remember | The only place I ever saw him in person that I remember |
682 | 00:48:38,295 | 00:48:40,172 | was in Front Street repeatedly. | was in Front Street repeatedly. |
683 | 00:48:41,507 | 00:48:46,053 | It was a jumpin' scene in there. It was the place to be in Provincetown. | It was a jumpin' scene in there. It was the place to be in Provincetown. |
684 | 00:48:47,596 | 00:48:52,392 | And he was always in there with hustlers and it infuriated me. | And he was always in there with hustlers and it infuriated me. |
685 | 00:48:54,603 | 00:48:57,356 | All these boys around a table. | All these boys around a table. |
686 | 00:48:57,522 | 00:49:00,484 | They were ordering champagne and fancy food and... you know. | They were ordering champagne and fancy food and... you know. |
687 | 00:49:00,651 | 00:49:03,487 | It didn't seem they were discussing the history of communism. | It didn't seem they were discussing the history of communism. |
688 | 00:49:05,447 | 00:49:07,657 | I would have been a communist then. | I would have been a communist then. |
689 | 00:49:07,824 | 00:49:11,787 | Just meant a liberal really. I was worse. | Just meant a liberal really. I was worse. |
690 | 00:49:11,953 | 00:49:16,291 | I was a young lunatic myself really so I never spoke to him. | I was a young lunatic myself really so I never spoke to him. |
691 | 00:49:16,458 | 00:49:19,211 | And complained that he was in there to the people that owned it, | And complained that he was in there to the people that owned it, |
692 | 00:49:19,377 | 00:49:22,088 | who was my dear friend Howard Gruber, who was jewish. | who was my dear friend Howard Gruber, who was jewish. |
693 | 00:49:22,255 | 00:49:25,342 | He said I always spit in his food every time when I serve him. | He said I always spit in his food every time when I serve him. |
694 | 00:49:25,508 | 00:49:29,596 | I would've done more than spit. | I would've done more than spit. |
695 | 00:49:29,763 | 00:49:35,226 | He'd stop into Front Street to make a reservation for 25 person seating. | He'd stop into Front Street to make a reservation for 25 person seating. |
696 | 00:49:36,436 | 00:49:38,897 | He was a true perfectionist. | He was a true perfectionist. |
697 | 00:49:41,107 | 00:49:44,777 | Before any of the guests arrived he had to see it set up. | Before any of the guests arrived he had to see it set up. |
698 | 00:49:48,156 | 00:49:53,536 | He would bring in these candy dishes and he would fill them with cocaine. | He would bring in these candy dishes and he would fill them with cocaine. |
699 | 00:49:54,704 | 00:49:57,040 | A substantial amount of cocaine. | A substantial amount of cocaine. |
700 | 00:49:57,206 | 00:50:01,627 | He would then place these Tuinals to the right of every setting. | He would then place these Tuinals to the right of every setting. |
701 | 00:50:01,794 | 00:50:06,382 | It's a sedative so if they got too crazy on the cocaine, | It's a sedative so if they got too crazy on the cocaine, |
702 | 00:50:06,549 | 00:50:08,926 | they would have a Tuinal to level themselves out. | they would have a Tuinal to level themselves out. |
703 | 00:50:11,804 | 00:50:14,807 | It was a coke pit. It was during the cocaine years. | It was a coke pit. It was during the cocaine years. |
704 | 00:50:14,974 | 00:50:17,852 | And I did cocaine in the bathroom, everybody did. | And I did cocaine in the bathroom, everybody did. |
705 | 00:50:18,019 | 00:50:19,854 | Did I ever do coke with him? | Did I ever do coke with him? |
706 | 00:50:20,021 | 00:50:23,566 | I wouldn't have had my nostril on the same straw as that pig. | I wouldn't have had my nostril on the same straw as that pig. |
707 | 00:50:27,236 | 00:50:30,656 | He came here for easy sex, and handsome men, | He came here for easy sex, and handsome men, |
708 | 00:50:30,823 | 00:50:35,369 | and probably easy access to drugs, and no paparazzi. | and probably easy access to drugs, and no paparazzi. |
709 | 00:50:35,536 | 00:50:38,664 | And maybe the fact that people didn't know who he was. | And maybe the fact that people didn't know who he was. |
710 | 00:50:52,344 | 00:50:55,806 | This is Roy's cottage that he rented, there. | This is Roy's cottage that he rented, there. |
711 | 00:50:55,973 | 00:50:59,434 | It's fixed up somewhat now. | It's fixed up somewhat now. |
712 | 00:51:00,811 | 00:51:02,187 | And this is my house. | And this is my house. |
713 | 00:51:03,105 | 00:51:06,275 | So you can see we were very connected. | So you can see we were very connected. |
714 | 00:51:09,528 | 00:51:12,864 | A neighbor up the street came to me that he had a renter. | A neighbor up the street came to me that he had a renter. |
715 | 00:51:13,031 | 00:51:15,409 | I had never been here before, I said great. | I had never been here before, I said great. |
716 | 00:51:15,575 | 00:51:19,162 | And he didn't tell me who it was. He said but don't worry about it. | And he didn't tell me who it was. He said but don't worry about it. |
717 | 00:51:20,872 | 00:51:24,751 | So low and behold Roy Cohn moves in. | So low and behold Roy Cohn moves in. |
718 | 00:51:25,919 | 00:51:29,923 | I didn't know that much about Roy but I knew enough. | I didn't know that much about Roy but I knew enough. |
719 | 00:51:32,634 | 00:51:36,346 | The neighbors right away knew much more than I did. | The neighbors right away knew much more than I did. |
720 | 00:51:36,513 | 00:51:38,723 | 'How could you have done that to us?' | 'How could you have done that to us?' |
721 | 00:51:38,890 | 00:51:44,354 | 'How could you made that man live across the street from me? ' | 'How could you made that man live across the street from me? ' |
722 | 00:51:44,521 | 00:51:49,609 | But the rent was paid the house was clean and he was a good tenant. | But the rent was paid the house was clean and he was a good tenant. |
723 | 00:51:49,776 | 00:51:53,404 | He had lots and lots of guests all the time. | He had lots and lots of guests all the time. |
724 | 00:51:54,697 | 00:51:59,327 | Tall, blonde, blue eyed, built like... yummy. | Tall, blonde, blue eyed, built like... yummy. |
725 | 00:52:03,081 | 00:52:07,043 | I never saw him alone, except for when he went swimming. | I never saw him alone, except for when he went swimming. |
726 | 00:52:20,681 | 00:52:22,892 | That's an interesting thought. | That's an interesting thought. |
727 | 00:52:23,059 | 00:52:29,648 | Never alone, always at least two or three people, if not more. | Never alone, always at least two or three people, if not more. |
728 | 00:52:29,815 | 00:52:31,192 | Hovering. | Hovering. |
729 | 00:52:32,109 | 00:52:34,904 | How important is it to spend time with yourself. | How important is it to spend time with yourself. |
730 | 00:52:40,993 | 00:52:42,953 | I rented to him a second year | I rented to him a second year |
731 | 00:52:44,205 | 00:52:47,458 | and he then came to me and said he wanted to buy it. | and he then came to me and said he wanted to buy it. |
732 | 00:52:47,625 | 00:52:49,209 | And I said well it's not for sale. | And I said well it's not for sale. |
733 | 00:52:50,252 | 00:52:53,589 | He looked at me with these very cold eyes. | He looked at me with these very cold eyes. |
734 | 00:52:54,631 | 00:52:57,593 | He said, 'things have a way of being sold that aren't for sale, Anne'. | He said, 'things have a way of being sold that aren't for sale, Anne'. |
735 | 00:52:59,762 | 00:53:01,472 | And I just shivered. | And I just shivered. |
736 | 00:53:05,309 | 00:53:08,312 | Fortunately, he bought the place two house from me. | Fortunately, he bought the place two house from me. |
737 | 00:53:11,982 | 00:53:14,818 | Norman Mailer and I were buying a house together. | Norman Mailer and I were buying a house together. |
738 | 00:53:14,985 | 00:53:17,237 | Roy jumps into that project | Roy jumps into that project |
739 | 00:53:17,404 | 00:53:21,283 | and snags for himself the cottage that's on the property. | and snags for himself the cottage that's on the property. |
740 | 00:53:29,332 | 00:53:32,460 | I can recall one Sunday on his big deck. | I can recall one Sunday on his big deck. |
741 | 00:53:36,089 | 00:53:38,592 | Roy is surrounded by newspapers. | Roy is surrounded by newspapers. |
742 | 00:53:38,758 | 00:53:41,928 | The LA Times, The New York Times, London papers. | The LA Times, The New York Times, London papers. |
743 | 00:53:42,971 | 00:53:46,683 | Norman Mailer had recently gotten back from Russia, | Norman Mailer had recently gotten back from Russia, |
744 | 00:53:46,850 | 00:53:49,436 | where he did a piece for Parade Magazine, | where he did a piece for Parade Magazine, |
745 | 00:53:49,602 | 00:53:51,938 | praising Russia to the skies. | praising Russia to the skies. |
746 | 00:53:52,105 | 00:53:53,481 | He loved Russian food. | He loved Russian food. |
747 | 00:53:53,648 | 00:53:56,484 | You've never had borscht like you can get in Moscow. | You've never had borscht like you can get in Moscow. |
748 | 00:53:56,651 | 00:53:59,237 | Russian women - nothing like it. | Russian women - nothing like it. |
749 | 00:54:01,114 | 00:54:02,907 | Roy was looking at Norman's piece | Roy was looking at Norman's piece |
750 | 00:54:03,074 | 00:54:04,867 | and Roy looks up at me and he says, 'have you read this?' | and Roy looks up at me and he says, 'have you read this?' |
751 | 00:54:05,034 | 00:54:08,705 | Your friend Mailer is so fucking in love with the Russians, | Your friend Mailer is so fucking in love with the Russians, |
752 | 00:54:08,871 | 00:54:12,208 | he'll really be happy when the Ruskies drop a nuke on him. | he'll really be happy when the Ruskies drop a nuke on him. |
753 | 00:54:12,375 | 00:54:14,335 | That'll bring him to his senses maybe. ' | That'll bring him to his senses maybe. ' |
754 | 00:54:19,340 | 00:54:22,635 | A discussion of "The Rosenbergs" | A discussion of "The Rosenbergs" |
755 | 00:54:22,802 | 00:54:24,387 | Guilty or innocent? | Guilty or innocent? |
756 | 00:54:24,554 | 00:54:26,556 | The question lingers after 30 years | The question lingers after 30 years |
757 | 00:54:26,722 | 00:54:29,392 | and still divides many people here and abroad. | and still divides many people here and abroad. |
758 | 00:54:29,558 | 00:54:32,520 | I would like to introduce briefly our guests tonight. | I would like to introduce briefly our guests tonight. |
759 | 00:54:32,687 | 00:54:36,857 | To my left, Marshall Perlin, a lawyer involved with the case. | To my left, Marshall Perlin, a lawyer involved with the case. |
760 | 00:54:37,024 | 00:54:40,152 | To my left, Professor Michael Meeropol, | To my left, Professor Michael Meeropol, |
761 | 00:54:40,319 | 00:54:43,030 | one of the sons of Ethel and Julius Rosenberg. | one of the sons of Ethel and Julius Rosenberg. |
762 | 00:54:43,197 | 00:54:45,324 | And to my right, attorney Roy Cohn. | And to my right, attorney Roy Cohn. |
763 | 00:54:48,077 | 00:54:50,454 | When Robby and I got a lot of publicity, | When Robby and I got a lot of publicity, |
764 | 00:54:50,621 | 00:54:56,585 | we discover that Roy Cohn has taken on the mantle of defending the government. | we discover that Roy Cohn has taken on the mantle of defending the government. |
765 | 00:54:56,752 | 00:55:00,881 | Why was clemency not granted? What was standing in the way? | Why was clemency not granted? What was standing in the way? |
766 | 00:55:01,048 | 00:55:03,759 | It is justified in the case of two people | It is justified in the case of two people |
767 | 00:55:03,926 | 00:55:07,096 | who stole secrets involving a bomb, | who stole secrets involving a bomb, |
768 | 00:55:07,262 | 00:55:10,808 | which could take thousands of human lives | which could take thousands of human lives |
769 | 00:55:10,974 | 00:55:12,851 | and turning it over to an enemy, | and turning it over to an enemy, |
770 | 00:55:13,018 | 00:55:15,562 | which has blacked out a good part of the world | which has blacked out a good part of the world |
771 | 00:55:15,729 | 00:55:17,606 | and taken many human lives. | and taken many human lives. |
772 | 00:55:17,773 | 00:55:21,401 | What could be worse than selling out your own country? | What could be worse than selling out your own country? |
773 | 00:55:21,568 | 00:55:23,028 | -Mr. Meeropol? -Yes. | -Mr. Meeropol? -Yes. |
774 | 00:55:23,195 | 00:55:26,573 | The first thing that people have to realize is, of course, | The first thing that people have to realize is, of course, |
775 | 00:55:26,740 | 00:55:30,535 | that the man who is saying all of this was part of a prosecution team | that the man who is saying all of this was part of a prosecution team |
776 | 00:55:30,702 | 00:55:32,996 | that engaged in subornation of perjury | that engaged in subornation of perjury |
777 | 00:55:33,163 | 00:55:36,833 | and a conspiracy to deprive civil rights by false prosecution. | and a conspiracy to deprive civil rights by false prosecution. |
778 | 00:55:37,000 | 00:55:40,086 | He's not going to stand on television in the US and confess to doing that. | He's not going to stand on television in the US and confess to doing that. |
779 | 00:55:40,253 | 00:55:43,798 | He hasn't been in the habit of confessing crimes in his entire career | He hasn't been in the habit of confessing crimes in his entire career |
780 | 00:55:43,965 | 00:55:45,759 | and I don't expect he's going to start now. | and I don't expect he's going to start now. |
781 | 00:55:45,926 | 00:55:48,386 | The fact remains that ever since 1953, | The fact remains that ever since 1953, |
782 | 00:55:48,553 | 00:55:51,848 | we have uncovered perjuries on the part of prosecution witnesses, | we have uncovered perjuries on the part of prosecution witnesses, |
783 | 00:55:52,015 | 00:55:55,935 | we have uncovered forgeries, we have uncovered factual material. | we have uncovered forgeries, we have uncovered factual material. |
784 | 00:55:56,102 | 00:55:59,314 | -You're accusing me of corruption! -No... | -You're accusing me of corruption! -No... |
785 | 00:55:59,481 | 00:56:00,857 | Let me make a very interesting comment | Let me make a very interesting comment |
786 | 00:56:01,024 | 00:56:04,444 | that your viewers might be interested in. We have a way of reopening the case. | that your viewers might be interested in. We have a way of reopening the case. |
787 | 00:56:04,611 | 00:56:08,406 | If I just told a lie about Mr. Cohn's criminal conduct, | If I just told a lie about Mr. Cohn's criminal conduct, |
788 | 00:56:08,573 | 00:56:12,201 | we've got a perfect chance to have a courtroom. | we've got a perfect chance to have a courtroom. |
789 | 00:56:12,368 | 00:56:15,913 | -We don't want to get into this. -He knows what he did! | -We don't want to get into this. -He knows what he did! |
790 | 00:56:16,080 | 00:56:17,832 | I would like to hear more about the motivation. | I would like to hear more about the motivation. |
791 | 00:56:17,999 | 00:56:21,335 | Course he did know what he did. The point is he didn't care. | Course he did know what he did. The point is he didn't care. |
792 | 00:56:23,671 | 00:56:25,173 | If it wasn't for me, Joe, | If it wasn't for me, Joe, |
793 | 00:56:26,424 | 00:56:28,676 | Ethel Rosenberg would be alive today. | Ethel Rosenberg would be alive today. |
794 | 00:56:30,887 | 00:56:33,848 | I would have fucking pulled they switch if they'd have let me. | I would have fucking pulled they switch if they'd have let me. |
795 | 00:56:34,015 | 00:56:36,684 | Why? Because I fucking hate traitors. | Why? Because I fucking hate traitors. |
796 | 00:56:36,851 | 00:56:42,189 | Because I fucking hate Communists. Was it legal? Fuck legal! | Because I fucking hate Communists. Was it legal? Fuck legal! |
797 | 00:56:42,356 | 00:56:45,693 | Am I a nice man? Fuck nice! | Am I a nice man? Fuck nice! |
798 | 00:56:45,860 | 00:56:48,863 | They say terrible things about me in The Nation. | They say terrible things about me in The Nation. |
799 | 00:56:49,029 | 00:56:51,031 | Fuck The Nation! | Fuck The Nation! |
800 | 00:56:51,198 | 00:56:54,785 | You want to be nice? Or you want to be effective? | You want to be nice? Or you want to be effective? |
801 | 00:56:55,995 | 00:56:58,998 | Make the law, or subject to it! Choose. | Make the law, or subject to it! Choose. |
802 | 00:57:01,000 | 00:57:04,878 | The Rosenbergs convicted themselves by taking the witness stand | The Rosenbergs convicted themselves by taking the witness stand |
803 | 00:57:05,045 | 00:57:06,922 | and lying through their teeth. | and lying through their teeth. |
804 | 00:57:07,089 | 00:57:10,300 | There were a number of other people recruited by the Rosenbergs, | There were a number of other people recruited by the Rosenbergs, |
805 | 00:57:10,467 | 00:57:13,053 | working with the Rosenbergs, who escaped. | working with the Rosenbergs, who escaped. |
806 | 00:57:14,638 | 00:57:16,390 | I welcome the full inquiry. | I welcome the full inquiry. |
807 | 00:57:16,557 | 00:57:20,477 | I urge you to use the power of subpoena, get secret documents, | I urge you to use the power of subpoena, get secret documents, |
808 | 00:57:20,644 | 00:57:24,398 | talk to witnesses, put people like Mr. Cohn under oath | talk to witnesses, put people like Mr. Cohn under oath |
809 | 00:57:24,565 | 00:57:28,402 | and keep at him about things that were developed, | and keep at him about things that were developed, |
810 | 00:57:28,569 | 00:57:31,154 | prosecution changes, etc. | prosecution changes, etc. |
811 | 00:57:31,321 | 00:57:35,575 | I feel the people who framed my parents trampled the American flag in the mud | I feel the people who framed my parents trampled the American flag in the mud |
812 | 00:57:35,742 | 00:57:37,452 | and I think it's up to us to wash it. | and I think it's up to us to wash it. |
813 | 00:57:37,619 | 00:57:40,038 | I could look him in the eye and I could point at him and say, | I could look him in the eye and I could point at him and say, |
814 | 00:57:40,205 | 00:57:42,416 | 'You knew what you did'. | 'You knew what you did'. |
815 | 00:57:42,582 | 00:57:47,087 | I kept saying, Come on, if I'm lying sue me!' | I kept saying, Come on, if I'm lying sue me!' |
816 | 00:57:49,130 | 00:57:51,383 | And he just brushed it off. | And he just brushed it off. |
817 | 00:57:59,891 | 00:58:01,559 | 'Who elected Ronald Reagan? | 'Who elected Ronald Reagan? |
818 | 00:58:01,726 | 00:58:04,020 | It was union members, defying their leaders. | It was union members, defying their leaders. |
819 | 00:58:04,187 | 00:58:06,481 | It was the blue-collar worker, the truck driver. | It was the blue-collar worker, the truck driver. |
820 | 00:58:06,648 | 00:58:09,109 | Because they're the ones who are getting hit by our economy. | Because they're the ones who are getting hit by our economy. |
821 | 00:58:09,275 | 00:58:11,986 | It's the middle class that's been going under.' | It's the middle class that's been going under.' |
822 | 00:58:12,153 | 00:58:17,408 | You know what? That is the subtext to the election of Donald Trump. | You know what? That is the subtext to the election of Donald Trump. |
823 | 00:58:20,578 | 00:58:22,121 | And this was what? 1981. | And this was what? 1981. |
824 | 00:58:25,958 | 00:58:28,961 | You have claimed you've been a fan of Ronald Reagan, supporter of Reagan. | You have claimed you've been a fan of Ronald Reagan, supporter of Reagan. |
825 | 00:58:29,128 | 00:58:32,381 | -I haven't claimed, I have been. -Wonderful. For many years. | -I haven't claimed, I have been. -Wonderful. For many years. |
826 | 00:58:32,548 | 00:58:35,635 | Way before on a national level. | Way before on a national level. |
827 | 00:58:35,802 | 00:58:39,096 | When he made the speech for Barry Goldwater in 1964. | When he made the speech for Barry Goldwater in 1964. |
828 | 00:58:40,640 | 00:58:42,975 | Ronald Reagan came across as a giant. | Ronald Reagan came across as a giant. |
829 | 00:58:43,142 | 00:58:46,646 | We're at war with the most dangerous enemy that has ever faced mankind | We're at war with the most dangerous enemy that has ever faced mankind |
830 | 00:58:46,812 | 00:58:49,523 | in his long climb from the swamp to the stars. | in his long climb from the swamp to the stars. |
831 | 00:58:49,690 | 00:58:51,651 | And it's been said if we lose that war, | And it's been said if we lose that war, |
832 | 00:58:51,817 | 00:58:54,195 | and in so doing lose this way of freedom of ours, | and in so doing lose this way of freedom of ours, |
833 | 00:58:54,362 | 00:58:56,697 | history will record with the greatest astonishment | history will record with the greatest astonishment |
834 | 00:58:56,864 | 00:59:00,576 | that those who had the most to lose did the least to prevent its happening. | that those who had the most to lose did the least to prevent its happening. |
835 | 00:59:13,297 | 00:59:16,717 | Many people did not expect the governor from California, | Many people did not expect the governor from California, |
836 | 00:59:16,884 | 00:59:19,678 | who was not sophisticated about international relations, | who was not sophisticated about international relations, |
837 | 00:59:19,845 | 00:59:21,221 | to be elected. | to be elected. |
838 | 00:59:24,516 | 00:59:27,060 | Roy predicted that he would be elected well before he was. | Roy predicted that he would be elected well before he was. |
839 | 00:59:28,395 | 00:59:30,606 | Roy ushered in that Republican revolution. | Roy ushered in that Republican revolution. |
840 | 00:59:39,239 | 00:59:41,700 | Since the time Governor Reagan in New York | Since the time Governor Reagan in New York |
841 | 00:59:41,867 | 00:59:44,411 | made his announcement until the election, | made his announcement until the election, |
842 | 00:59:44,578 | 00:59:45,996 | I don't know where I got the time from, | I don't know where I got the time from, |
843 | 00:59:46,163 | 00:59:49,374 | because my partner Tom Boland had the main role | because my partner Tom Boland had the main role |
844 | 00:59:49,541 | 00:59:52,627 | as finance director for Governor Reagan in New York, | as finance director for Governor Reagan in New York, |
845 | 00:59:52,794 | 00:59:56,464 | but I had to do an awful lot and through all hours of the night. | but I had to do an awful lot and through all hours of the night. |
846 | 00:59:58,258 | 01:00:01,928 | Roger Stone was a young campaign person who was working in New York, | Roger Stone was a young campaign person who was working in New York, |
847 | 01:00:02,095 | 01:00:04,681 | and he met Roy because Roy hosted him at parties, | and he met Roy because Roy hosted him at parties, |
848 | 01:00:04,848 | 01:00:07,392 | actually introduced him to Donald Trump. | actually introduced him to Donald Trump. |
849 | 01:00:07,559 | 01:00:11,813 | And Roger Stone got a lot of money, so that when Reagan was elected, | And Roger Stone got a lot of money, so that when Reagan was elected, |
850 | 01:00:11,980 | 01:00:14,190 | Roger Stone, Ed Meese and people around him | Roger Stone, Ed Meese and people around him |
851 | 01:00:14,357 | 01:00:16,025 | felt that they owed a lot to Roy | felt that they owed a lot to Roy |
852 | 01:00:16,192 | 01:00:17,944 | for making connections and getting him money. | for making connections and getting him money. |
853 | 01:00:18,111 | 01:00:20,446 | Ronald Reagan also helped his fellow Republicans | Ronald Reagan also helped his fellow Republicans |
854 | 01:00:20,613 | 01:00:23,199 | make a major change in the philosophy of Congress. | make a major change in the philosophy of Congress. |
855 | 01:00:23,366 | 01:00:27,453 | It has become much more conservative in the Senate and in the House. | It has become much more conservative in the Senate and in the House. |
856 | 01:00:27,620 | 01:00:30,623 | 1980, it was a big Republican year, | 1980, it was a big Republican year, |
857 | 01:00:30,790 | 01:00:34,961 | and I got elected to Congress as the youngest member of Congress. | and I got elected to Congress as the youngest member of Congress. |
858 | 01:00:35,128 | 01:00:39,215 | I'd just turned 27 during the campaign, so I was young. | I'd just turned 27 during the campaign, so I was young. |
859 | 01:00:40,758 | 01:00:44,387 | And, within a week or two after I got elected, | And, within a week or two after I got elected, |
860 | 01:00:44,554 | 01:00:49,058 | I get a phone call and a letter asking a favor | I get a phone call and a letter asking a favor |
861 | 01:00:49,225 | 01:00:54,647 | from this law firm that was Tom Boland and his law partner, Roy Cohn. | from this law firm that was Tom Boland and his law partner, Roy Cohn. |
862 | 01:00:56,065 | 01:01:00,569 | They wanted their friends to get jobs from the Reagan White House. | They wanted their friends to get jobs from the Reagan White House. |
863 | 01:01:00,736 | 01:01:05,491 | They asked me to support a candidate for federal judgeship. | They asked me to support a candidate for federal judgeship. |
864 | 01:01:05,658 | 01:01:07,910 | Along the way, they asked me to write this letter, | Along the way, they asked me to write this letter, |
865 | 01:01:08,077 | 01:01:10,746 | and they keep pushing it, which I ended up writing. | and they keep pushing it, which I ended up writing. |
866 | 01:01:10,913 | 01:01:13,749 | It might have been the first letter of recommendation I wrote, | It might have been the first letter of recommendation I wrote, |
867 | 01:01:13,916 | 01:01:15,751 | and it was for Maryanne Trump, | and it was for Maryanne Trump, |
868 | 01:01:16,961 | 01:01:19,880 | Donald Trump's older sister, to be a federal judge. | Donald Trump's older sister, to be a federal judge. |
869 | 01:01:20,923 | 01:01:23,384 | I've never been asked to do such a thing in my life. | I've never been asked to do such a thing in my life. |
870 | 01:01:23,550 | 01:01:25,177 | A year earlier I'm in school. | A year earlier I'm in school. |
871 | 01:01:26,428 | 01:01:29,681 | And, in the new administration the next year, | And, in the new administration the next year, |
872 | 01:01:29,848 | 01:01:32,601 | President Reagan did appoint her to the federal bench. | President Reagan did appoint her to the federal bench. |
873 | 01:01:34,812 | 01:01:39,525 | They were very influential with the President of the United States. | They were very influential with the President of the United States. |
874 | 01:01:48,116 | 01:01:52,245 | I became very involved in the issue of American prisoners of war | I became very involved in the issue of American prisoners of war |
875 | 01:01:52,412 | 01:01:54,414 | that were left behind during the Vietnam War. | that were left behind during the Vietnam War. |
876 | 01:01:55,665 | 01:01:58,668 | I am now on the Foreign Affairs Committee in the House, | I am now on the Foreign Affairs Committee in the House, |
877 | 01:01:58,835 | 01:02:02,255 | and I have a Laotian pilot | and I have a Laotian pilot |
878 | 01:02:02,422 | 01:02:06,968 | that I'm hiring to go back to Laos to look around for information. | that I'm hiring to go back to Laos to look around for information. |
879 | 01:02:07,135 | 01:02:11,723 | But we needed to accelerate his citizenship. | But we needed to accelerate his citizenship. |
880 | 01:02:11,890 | 01:02:13,391 | So I ask Roy Cohn. | So I ask Roy Cohn. |
881 | 01:02:15,143 | 01:02:18,021 | And, to this day, it is the single, | And, to this day, it is the single, |
882 | 01:02:18,188 | 01:02:21,441 | most impressive use of power that I've seen in my life. | most impressive use of power that I've seen in my life. |
883 | 01:02:23,193 | 01:02:25,779 | He said, "I've got it all set, here's what you're gonna do. | He said, "I've got it all set, here's what you're gonna do. |
884 | 01:02:25,945 | 01:02:27,697 | You're going to go to Los Angeles. | You're going to go to Los Angeles. |
885 | 01:02:27,864 | 01:02:30,366 | You're going to go to the Federal Courthouse. | You're going to go to the Federal Courthouse. |
886 | 01:02:30,533 | 01:02:32,785 | You're going to go to some courtroom, | You're going to go to some courtroom, |
887 | 01:02:32,952 | 01:02:39,417 | and there is a Judge Roy Carstairs will be running a federal trial. | and there is a Judge Roy Carstairs will be running a federal trial. |
888 | 01:02:39,584 | 01:02:42,045 | And you will wait in the back of the courtroom, standing. | And you will wait in the back of the courtroom, standing. |
889 | 01:02:43,171 | 01:02:49,719 | Judge Carstairs will see you there, he will call a recess of the trial, | Judge Carstairs will see you there, he will call a recess of the trial, |
890 | 01:02:49,886 | 01:02:53,973 | and he will swear your Laotian in as an American citizen right on the spot. | and he will swear your Laotian in as an American citizen right on the spot. |
891 | 01:02:55,099 | 01:02:58,102 | That is how to wield power. | That is how to wield power. |
892 | 01:03:04,233 | 01:03:06,694 | Before I met him, I knew him as a fixer. | Before I met him, I knew him as a fixer. |
893 | 01:03:06,861 | 01:03:08,529 | A guy who got things done. | A guy who got things done. |
894 | 01:03:08,696 | 01:03:10,531 | It wasn't what you knew, it was who you know. | It wasn't what you knew, it was who you know. |
895 | 01:03:11,824 | 01:03:13,242 | Claus Von Bülow Case | Claus Von Bülow Case |
896 | 01:03:13,409 | 01:03:18,414 | The occasion I had to work with him was during the Claus Von Bulow case. | The occasion I had to work with him was during the Claus Von Bulow case. |
897 | 01:03:18,581 | 01:03:21,375 | I was handling the criminal aspect of it. | I was handling the criminal aspect of it. |
898 | 01:03:21,542 | 01:03:23,752 | He was handling the estate. | He was handling the estate. |
899 | 01:03:23,919 | 01:03:28,674 | I was, I wouldn't say charmed by him, but I was pleasantly surprised | I was, I wouldn't say charmed by him, but I was pleasantly surprised |
900 | 01:03:28,841 | 01:03:33,387 | by the fact that he wasn't the ogre that I had been told he was. | by the fact that he wasn't the ogre that I had been told he was. |
901 | 01:03:33,554 | 01:03:36,932 | And he was determined to make me like him somehow. | And he was determined to make me like him somehow. |
902 | 01:03:39,309 | 01:03:43,856 | He emphasized that he really admired me because of my support for Israel, | He emphasized that he really admired me because of my support for Israel, |
903 | 01:03:44,022 | 01:03:46,483 | my support for Jewish values. | my support for Jewish values. |
904 | 01:03:47,985 | 01:03:49,987 | He tried to persuade me | He tried to persuade me |
905 | 01:03:50,153 | 01:03:52,739 | that he grew up at a time | that he grew up at a time |
906 | 01:03:52,906 | 01:03:55,993 | when communism was associated with being Jewish. | when communism was associated with being Jewish. |
907 | 01:03:56,159 | 01:03:58,203 | Not only the Rosenbergs, Klaus Fuchs | Not only the Rosenbergs, Klaus Fuchs |
908 | 01:03:58,370 | 01:04:03,375 | and so many of the other people who were alleged to be spies were Jews, | and so many of the other people who were alleged to be spies were Jews, |
909 | 01:04:03,542 | 01:04:07,796 | and so many leaders of Communist parties were Jews. | and so many leaders of Communist parties were Jews. |
910 | 01:04:07,963 | 01:04:11,174 | He thought it was terrible that Jews were being associated with Communism. | He thought it was terrible that Jews were being associated with Communism. |
911 | 01:04:12,217 | 01:04:15,512 | And he made a decision to stand up against Communism | And he made a decision to stand up against Communism |
912 | 01:04:15,679 | 01:04:18,890 | as a visible Jew with a name like Cohn, | as a visible Jew with a name like Cohn, |
913 | 01:04:19,057 | 01:04:24,062 | that can be seen around the world as Jews standing up against Communism. | that can be seen around the world as Jews standing up against Communism. |
914 | 01:04:24,229 | 01:04:28,900 | And he went into great detail with me about the Rosenberg case. | And he went into great detail with me about the Rosenberg case. |
915 | 01:04:31,736 | 01:04:37,659 | He told me that they knew for certain that Julius Rosenberg was a spy, | He told me that they knew for certain that Julius Rosenberg was a spy, |
916 | 01:04:37,826 | 01:04:42,747 | they had wiretaps from some embassy that they couldn't disclose | they had wiretaps from some embassy that they couldn't disclose |
917 | 01:04:42,914 | 01:04:44,874 | cause they are not supposed to be taping embassies, | cause they are not supposed to be taping embassies, |
918 | 01:04:45,041 | 01:04:47,085 | but they were 100% confident. | but they were 100% confident. |
919 | 01:04:48,294 | 01:04:53,674 | But they couldn't use the evidence and so they enhanced the evidence. | But they couldn't use the evidence and so they enhanced the evidence. |
920 | 01:04:53,841 | 01:04:55,718 | They improved the evidence, | They improved the evidence, |
921 | 01:04:55,885 | 01:04:59,889 | and he thought it was a morally just thing to do. | and he thought it was a morally just thing to do. |
922 | 01:05:00,056 | 01:05:04,101 | The star witness for the prosecution was David Greenglass. | The star witness for the prosecution was David Greenglass. |
923 | 01:05:04,268 | 01:05:06,479 | He now says this man made him do it. | He now says this man made him do it. |
924 | 01:05:06,646 | 01:05:13,444 | Did Cohn encourage you to testify that you saw Ethel typing up the notes? | Did Cohn encourage you to testify that you saw Ethel typing up the notes? |
925 | 01:05:13,611 | 01:05:15,946 | -Of course he did. -Did you realize at the time | -Of course he did. -Did you realize at the time |
926 | 01:05:16,113 | 01:05:18,741 | or when you were testifying the importance of this, | or when you were testifying the importance of this, |
927 | 01:05:18,908 | 01:05:20,451 | the evidence you were providing? | the evidence you were providing? |
928 | 01:05:20,618 | 01:05:23,120 | I had no idea it was important. | I had no idea it was important. |
929 | 01:05:25,206 | 01:05:29,585 | He also said that he did have many ex-party conversations | He also said that he did have many ex-party conversations |
930 | 01:05:29,752 | 01:05:33,005 | with Judge Irving Kaufman, that they talked on the phone, | with Judge Irving Kaufman, that they talked on the phone, |
931 | 01:05:33,172 | 01:05:36,550 | they had agreements about how to handle certain pieces of evidence. | they had agreements about how to handle certain pieces of evidence. |
932 | 01:05:37,593 | 01:05:42,181 | He never denied that the case was fixed. | He never denied that the case was fixed. |
933 | 01:05:42,348 | 01:05:47,561 | He used the term, 'We framed guilty people.' | He used the term, 'We framed guilty people.' |
934 | 01:05:47,728 | 01:05:49,938 | We framed guilty people.' | We framed guilty people.' |
935 | 01:05:51,523 | 01:05:54,359 | We tampered with the evidence | We tampered with the evidence |
936 | 01:05:54,526 | 01:05:59,031 | in order to persuade the judge and the jury | in order to persuade the judge and the jury |
937 | 01:05:59,197 | 01:06:01,950 | that these guilty people were in fact guilty. | that these guilty people were in fact guilty. |
938 | 01:06:04,995 | 01:06:09,750 | In 1995, the CIA released the Venona Transcription | In 1995, the CIA released the Venona Transcription |
939 | 01:06:09,916 | 01:06:13,211 | that attempted to prove that the government was right, | that attempted to prove that the government was right, |
940 | 01:06:13,378 | 01:06:15,922 | that Julius Rosenberg, my father, was a spy. | that Julius Rosenberg, my father, was a spy. |
941 | 01:06:17,174 | 01:06:20,427 | The media's reaction was, The Rosenbergs are guilty. ' | The media's reaction was, The Rosenbergs are guilty. ' |
942 | 01:06:22,262 | 01:06:23,638 | We were skeptical of it. | We were skeptical of it. |
943 | 01:06:23,805 | 01:06:27,642 | But I had to contemplate 'what would it mean if it were true? ' | But I had to contemplate 'what would it mean if it were true? ' |
944 | 01:06:30,270 | 01:06:33,606 | If we agreed that this stuff was real, | If we agreed that this stuff was real, |
945 | 01:06:33,773 | 01:06:36,651 | half of our case was already made for us. | half of our case was already made for us. |
946 | 01:06:36,818 | 01:06:40,738 | It was clear that your grandmother was not a spy. | It was clear that your grandmother was not a spy. |
947 | 01:06:40,905 | 01:06:42,490 | She never got a code name. | She never got a code name. |
948 | 01:06:48,162 | 01:06:52,417 | If the whole truth had come out, we would have known at the time | If the whole truth had come out, we would have known at the time |
949 | 01:06:52,584 | 01:06:55,962 | that Julius was guilty of being a spy for the Soviet Union, | that Julius was guilty of being a spy for the Soviet Union, |
950 | 01:06:56,129 | 01:06:58,798 | but that the information he provided them | but that the information he provided them |
951 | 01:06:58,965 | 01:07:02,343 | was not nearly as important or critical | was not nearly as important or critical |
952 | 01:07:02,510 | 01:07:04,887 | as the way the government made it sound. | as the way the government made it sound. |
953 | 01:07:05,972 | 01:07:11,853 | He was not the man who gave the atomic bomb to the Soviet Union. | He was not the man who gave the atomic bomb to the Soviet Union. |
954 | 01:07:12,937 | 01:07:16,190 | The other thing that we would know for sure, is that Ethel Rosenberg | The other thing that we would know for sure, is that Ethel Rosenberg |
955 | 01:07:16,357 | 01:07:20,027 | was not guilty of the crime for which she was charged. | was not guilty of the crime for which she was charged. |
956 | 01:07:20,194 | 01:07:22,113 | But there was a plot afoot. | But there was a plot afoot. |
957 | 01:07:23,864 | 01:07:27,493 | And the plot was, from the highest levels of government, | And the plot was, from the highest levels of government, |
958 | 01:07:27,660 | 01:07:30,496 | to frame Ethel Rosenberg | to frame Ethel Rosenberg |
959 | 01:07:30,663 | 01:07:33,707 | in order to get Julius to want to save her life | in order to get Julius to want to save her life |
960 | 01:07:33,874 | 01:07:38,212 | by ratting out the people who he was in contact with. | by ratting out the people who he was in contact with. |
961 | 01:07:39,630 | 01:07:43,550 | I don't think we've ever had a miscarriage of justice | I don't think we've ever had a miscarriage of justice |
962 | 01:07:43,717 | 01:07:46,595 | that parallels the Rosenberg case in my lifetime. | that parallels the Rosenberg case in my lifetime. |
963 | 01:07:51,433 | 01:07:54,478 | You told me before why you never wanted to go to the grave. | You told me before why you never wanted to go to the grave. |
964 | 01:07:54,645 | 01:07:58,816 | I didn't want to put myself through the anguish of actually seeing the grave. | I didn't want to put myself through the anguish of actually seeing the grave. |
965 | 01:08:03,695 | 01:08:06,990 | Most of the reopening effort was highly intellectual. | Most of the reopening effort was highly intellectual. |
966 | 01:08:07,157 | 01:08:09,660 | It involved arguing, articulating. | It involved arguing, articulating. |
967 | 01:08:11,036 | 01:08:15,165 | But there is a very, very personal side to this. | But there is a very, very personal side to this. |
968 | 01:08:18,585 | 01:08:21,588 | Remember the family was broken up for a good 2 years. | Remember the family was broken up for a good 2 years. |
969 | 01:08:24,341 | 01:08:28,637 | The period of time when we visited them was so amazing. | The period of time when we visited them was so amazing. |
970 | 01:08:28,803 | 01:08:31,223 | Hugging them and kissing them. We played, we sang. | Hugging them and kissing them. We played, we sang. |
971 | 01:08:33,350 | 01:08:35,685 | There was no pain because it was always... | There was no pain because it was always... |
972 | 01:08:35,852 | 01:08:38,021 | 'we still got hope' and 'see you next time'. | 'we still got hope' and 'see you next time'. |
973 | 01:08:41,316 | 01:08:44,778 | The last visit was so terrible because there was no next time. | The last visit was so terrible because there was no next time. |
974 | 01:08:46,654 | 01:08:50,700 | I was wailing, 'One more day to live, one more day to live.' | I was wailing, 'One more day to live, one more day to live.' |
975 | 01:08:50,867 | 01:08:52,535 | Then they kissed us and left. | Then they kissed us and left. |
976 | 01:09:12,263 | 01:09:15,224 | The last place I saw your grandparents was Sing Sing. | The last place I saw your grandparents was Sing Sing. |
977 | 01:09:19,395 | 01:09:24,233 | Going to Sing Sing is a way of connecting to that ten year old. | Going to Sing Sing is a way of connecting to that ten year old. |
978 | 01:09:27,695 | 01:09:29,071 | Memory is important. | Memory is important. |
979 | 01:09:34,285 | 01:09:36,412 | Reminding myself of it is important. | Reminding myself of it is important. |
980 | 01:09:37,621 | 01:09:41,542 | There were times in my teen years, and in my twenties where... | There were times in my teen years, and in my twenties where... |
981 | 01:09:43,377 | 01:09:47,798 | the press of everyday life would sort of like take charge. | the press of everyday life would sort of like take charge. |
982 | 01:09:47,965 | 01:09:53,053 | But I always, I always reminded myself where I came from. | But I always, I always reminded myself where I came from. |
983 | 01:10:27,254 | 01:10:31,883 | Roy Cohn represents a type of person who recurs throughout history. | Roy Cohn represents a type of person who recurs throughout history. |
984 | 01:10:33,301 | 01:10:37,597 | We know the Roy Cohn but every era has a Roy Cohn, | We know the Roy Cohn but every era has a Roy Cohn, |
985 | 01:10:37,764 | 01:10:42,102 | an opportunist, somebody who will stretch the law and ethics, | an opportunist, somebody who will stretch the law and ethics, |
986 | 01:10:42,269 | 01:10:47,190 | to make the ends justify the means. | to make the ends justify the means. |
987 | 01:10:49,401 | 01:10:52,195 | This picture of Donald and me hangs in my office. | This picture of Donald and me hangs in my office. |
988 | 01:10:53,446 | 01:10:56,449 | He says, 'Roy is my greatest friend.' | He says, 'Roy is my greatest friend.' |
989 | 01:10:58,910 | 01:11:02,497 | The man is, as I say, the closest thing to a genius I've ever met in my life. | The man is, as I say, the closest thing to a genius I've ever met in my life. |
990 | 01:11:04,666 | 01:11:08,586 | When he sees an opportunity, he's always there to take it. | When he sees an opportunity, he's always there to take it. |
991 | 01:11:08,753 | 01:11:12,173 | And I have a feeling, someday, not too far distant future, | And I have a feeling, someday, not too far distant future, |
992 | 01:11:12,340 | 01:11:16,094 | you're going to see Donald Trump in other parts of the country as well. | you're going to see Donald Trump in other parts of the country as well. |
993 | 01:11:18,304 | 01:11:22,016 | In the early 80s, I was living in Washington | In the early 80s, I was living in Washington |
994 | 01:11:22,183 | 01:11:25,102 | and I had just joined The Washington Post. | and I had just joined The Washington Post. |
995 | 01:11:26,646 | 01:11:29,398 | After 30 years, the Republicans were hot again. | After 30 years, the Republicans were hot again. |
996 | 01:11:29,565 | 01:11:34,904 | And all of us as young reporters were pursuing all the new young operatives. | And all of us as young reporters were pursuing all the new young operatives. |
997 | 01:11:35,071 | 01:11:38,282 | Among them was Roger Stone, and Paul Manafort... | Among them was Roger Stone, and Paul Manafort... |
998 | 01:11:39,408 | 01:11:43,662 | And, somewhere in there Roger Stone, who I'd cultivated as a source, | And, somewhere in there Roger Stone, who I'd cultivated as a source, |
999 | 01:11:43,829 | 01:11:46,916 | said, 'You need to meet my friend Roy Cohn.' | said, 'You need to meet my friend Roy Cohn.' |
1000 | 01:11:47,083 | 01:11:51,378 | Roy was very magnetic, and he knew how to cultivate the media. | Roy was very magnetic, and he knew how to cultivate the media. |
1001 | 01:11:51,545 | 01:11:54,507 | I used to see him at parties and he'd be in town. | I used to see him at parties and he'd be in town. |
1002 | 01:11:54,673 | 01:11:57,593 | He'd always stay at The Madison, which is across from The Post. | He'd always stay at The Madison, which is across from The Post. |
1003 | 01:11:57,760 | 01:12:00,596 | And he's saying, 'I'm at the bar. Come on over and have a drink.' | And he's saying, 'I'm at the bar. Come on over and have a drink.' |
1004 | 01:12:00,763 | 01:12:02,556 | And he would say, 'I've got a good story for you,' | And he would say, 'I've got a good story for you,' |
1005 | 01:12:02,723 | 01:12:04,391 | but it always served his purposes too. | but it always served his purposes too. |
1006 | 01:12:04,558 | 01:12:07,394 | Which is how I came to do a profile on Donald Trump. | Which is how I came to do a profile on Donald Trump. |
1007 | 01:12:09,772 | 01:12:12,608 | Throughout the whole two hours I'm with him all Trump says is | Throughout the whole two hours I'm with him all Trump says is |
1008 | 01:12:12,775 | 01:12:15,736 | 'Either you got it or you don't. ' About everything. | 'Either you got it or you don't. ' About everything. |
1009 | 01:12:15,903 | 01:12:18,363 | Either you can get a table at a restaurant or you can't. | Either you can get a table at a restaurant or you can't. |
1010 | 01:12:18,530 | 01:12:19,907 | Either you can do this or you can't. | Either you can do this or you can't. |
1011 | 01:12:20,908 | 01:12:23,243 | During the course of this, he says, | During the course of this, he says, |
1012 | 01:12:23,410 | 01:12:25,704 | 'I could be the nuclear arms negotiator. ' | 'I could be the nuclear arms negotiator. ' |
1013 | 01:12:25,871 | 01:12:27,998 | He said, 'I could know everything there is to know | He said, 'I could know everything there is to know |
1014 | 01:12:28,165 | 01:12:30,917 | about missiles and nuclear arms in an hour and a half. ' | about missiles and nuclear arms in an hour and a half. ' |
1015 | 01:12:34,254 | 01:12:36,298 | And he said, 'Roy really wants me to do this. | And he said, 'Roy really wants me to do this. |
1016 | 01:12:36,465 | 01:12:39,718 | Roy thinks that I would be a really good nuclear arms negotiator.' | Roy thinks that I would be a really good nuclear arms negotiator.' |
1017 | 01:12:40,760 | 01:12:44,181 | And during this period, he apparently sends word back | And during this period, he apparently sends word back |
1018 | 01:12:44,347 | 01:12:46,892 | to one of George Bush's operatives | to one of George Bush's operatives |
1019 | 01:12:47,058 | 01:12:49,394 | that he could be working in the administration. | that he could be working in the administration. |
1020 | 01:12:49,561 | 01:12:52,606 | So he was starting to feel pretty heady about himself | So he was starting to feel pretty heady about himself |
1021 | 01:12:52,772 | 01:12:54,316 | and what he could be doing in government. | and what he could be doing in government. |
1022 | 01:12:55,650 | 01:13:00,113 | Would you like to be in a position of negotiating disarmament? | Would you like to be in a position of negotiating disarmament? |
1023 | 01:13:00,280 | 01:13:02,198 | Is that really what's in your head? | Is that really what's in your head? |
1024 | 01:13:02,365 | 01:13:05,160 | I don't know who's negotiating for us, who had in the past. | I don't know who's negotiating for us, who had in the past. |
1025 | 01:13:05,326 | 01:13:07,745 | I used to watch under Jimmy Carter's regime, | I used to watch under Jimmy Carter's regime, |
1026 | 01:13:07,912 | 01:13:10,665 | I used to watch people going over and looking at these Russians. | I used to watch people going over and looking at these Russians. |
1027 | 01:13:10,832 | 01:13:12,542 | I could look at the Russians, | I could look at the Russians, |
1028 | 01:13:12,709 | 01:13:15,461 | at these people on our side and I could see there's no chance. | at these people on our side and I could see there's no chance. |
1029 | 01:13:15,628 | 01:13:18,715 | That's like the Pittsburgh Stealers playing my high school football team. | That's like the Pittsburgh Stealers playing my high school football team. |
1030 | 01:13:20,550 | 01:13:22,635 | Is it arrogant of Donald Trump | Is it arrogant of Donald Trump |
1031 | 01:13:22,802 | 01:13:26,431 | to even think about negotiating a treaty with the Russians? | to even think about negotiating a treaty with the Russians? |
1032 | 01:13:26,597 | 01:13:27,974 | It's not arrogance. | It's not arrogance. |
1033 | 01:13:28,141 | 01:13:32,353 | It's the fact that he sees he has a talent in a certain area. | It's the fact that he sees he has a talent in a certain area. |
1034 | 01:13:32,520 | 01:13:35,898 | Look his next stop might very well be Moscow. | Look his next stop might very well be Moscow. |
1035 | 01:13:39,819 | 01:13:44,031 | I think what Roy Cohn saw in Donald Trump | I think what Roy Cohn saw in Donald Trump |
1036 | 01:13:44,198 | 01:13:46,867 | was sort of an unpolished stone. | was sort of an unpolished stone. |
1037 | 01:13:47,034 | 01:13:50,579 | He had some smarts, he had ambition and he had money. | He had some smarts, he had ambition and he had money. |
1038 | 01:13:50,746 | 01:13:53,082 | And he had nerve. He wanted to shake things up. | And he had nerve. He wanted to shake things up. |
1039 | 01:13:54,500 | 01:13:58,129 | Roy is building this foothold in Washington D. C. , | Roy is building this foothold in Washington D. C. , |
1040 | 01:13:58,295 | 01:14:01,841 | and Don wants a piece of this, and Roy wants him to have a piece of it. | and Don wants a piece of this, and Roy wants him to have a piece of it. |
1041 | 01:14:15,437 | 01:14:18,357 | There's this wonderful photograph | There's this wonderful photograph |
1042 | 01:14:18,524 | 01:14:22,694 | of Roy and his arm candy lover, Peter Fraser, | of Roy and his arm candy lover, Peter Fraser, |
1043 | 01:14:22,861 | 01:14:25,280 | at the White House on a receiving line. | at the White House on a receiving line. |
1044 | 01:14:25,447 | 01:14:28,033 | And there's Nancy and there's Ron. | And there's Nancy and there's Ron. |
1045 | 01:14:28,200 | 01:14:31,995 | He's introducing his beautiful, for hire boyfriend. | He's introducing his beautiful, for hire boyfriend. |
1046 | 01:14:32,162 | 01:14:36,416 | And both he and his lover, are being received like royalty. | And both he and his lover, are being received like royalty. |
1047 | 01:14:36,583 | 01:14:38,043 | Like they're very important people. | Like they're very important people. |
1048 | 01:14:43,340 | 01:14:46,009 | In the early through mid-80s, | In the early through mid-80s, |
1049 | 01:14:46,176 | 01:14:49,888 | Peter Fraser was Roy's squeeze of choice. | Peter Fraser was Roy's squeeze of choice. |
1050 | 01:14:51,097 | 01:14:55,810 | Peter Fraser was tall, blonde, athletic-looking New Zealander. | Peter Fraser was tall, blonde, athletic-looking New Zealander. |
1051 | 01:14:58,521 | 01:15:02,484 | Roy got him made the Aramis man of the year. | Roy got him made the Aramis man of the year. |
1052 | 01:15:03,777 | 01:15:08,406 | Aramis is the mens division of Estee Lauder Cosmetics. | Aramis is the mens division of Estee Lauder Cosmetics. |
1053 | 01:15:08,573 | 01:15:13,036 | Estee and Joe Lauder were Roy's twenty, thirty-year-old, right-wing, | Estee and Joe Lauder were Roy's twenty, thirty-year-old, right-wing, |
1054 | 01:15:13,203 | 01:15:14,996 | multi-millionaire friends and clients. | multi-millionaire friends and clients. |
1055 | 01:15:17,499 | 01:15:19,751 | Peter Fraser was the kept partner | Peter Fraser was the kept partner |
1056 | 01:15:20,835 | 01:15:23,713 | and actually served a function in the Roy orbit. | and actually served a function in the Roy orbit. |
1057 | 01:15:26,215 | 01:15:30,970 | Here is a letter dated February one '85 on Saxe, Bacon, and Boland letterhead. | Here is a letter dated February one '85 on Saxe, Bacon, and Boland letterhead. |
1058 | 01:15:32,930 | 01:15:35,099 | To whom it may concern... | To whom it may concern... |
1059 | 01:15:35,266 | 01:15:37,769 | This is to confirm that Peter Fraser's employed | This is to confirm that Peter Fraser's employed |
1060 | 01:15:37,935 | 01:15:39,979 | by the law firm Saxe Bacon, and Boland | by the law firm Saxe Bacon, and Boland |
1061 | 01:15:40,146 | 01:15:45,151 | and he resides at the company house in Provincetown, Massachusetts. | and he resides at the company house in Provincetown, Massachusetts. |
1062 | 01:15:45,318 | 01:15:47,528 | Yours Truly, Roy M. Cohn.' | Yours Truly, Roy M. Cohn.' |
1063 | 01:15:48,571 | 01:15:49,947 | Wild! | Wild! |
1064 | 01:15:50,865 | 01:15:56,287 | Pay to the order of Peter Fraser. $5,284. | Pay to the order of Peter Fraser. $5,284. |
1065 | 01:15:56,454 | 01:16:00,916 | Here are credit cards receipts in Peter Fraser's name. | Here are credit cards receipts in Peter Fraser's name. |
1066 | 01:16:01,083 | 01:16:04,044 | Roy could not use credit cards, | Roy could not use credit cards, |
1067 | 01:16:04,211 | 01:16:11,427 | 'cause any purchase would be trackable and subject to IRS scrutiny. | 'cause any purchase would be trackable and subject to IRS scrutiny. |
1068 | 01:16:12,469 | 01:16:15,180 | Who is this? My god, this is more transfers. | Who is this? My god, this is more transfers. |
1069 | 01:16:15,347 | 01:16:20,894 | Holy shit. Bank of New Zealand for 10,012.50 dollars. | Holy shit. Bank of New Zealand for 10,012.50 dollars. |
1070 | 01:16:21,061 | 01:16:25,899 | On the same day, there was another transfer of 10,000. | On the same day, there was another transfer of 10,000. |
1071 | 01:16:26,066 | 01:16:27,443 | Jesus Christ! | Jesus Christ! |
1072 | 01:16:28,610 | 01:16:35,159 | Deposits 43,000, 50, 90,000 dollars, 45,000, 50,000 dollars. | Deposits 43,000, 50, 90,000 dollars, 45,000, 50,000 dollars. |
1073 | 01:16:35,325 | 01:16:37,619 | This is money laundering. | This is money laundering. |
1074 | 01:16:37,786 | 01:16:41,873 | Roy is using Peter as a cut-out. | Roy is using Peter as a cut-out. |
1075 | 01:16:42,040 | 01:16:44,501 | You know what a cut-out is in spy language? | You know what a cut-out is in spy language? |
1076 | 01:16:45,627 | 01:16:48,296 | You're on one side of the fence, I'm on the other, | You're on one side of the fence, I'm on the other, |
1077 | 01:16:48,463 | 01:16:50,340 | but I have this guy over here, | but I have this guy over here, |
1078 | 01:16:50,507 | 01:16:53,301 | and he gets everything I have even though you're focusing on me. | and he gets everything I have even though you're focusing on me. |
1079 | 01:16:54,803 | 01:17:01,726 | I don't know what these 90-100,000 $ balances in his account represent. | I don't know what these 90-100,000 $ balances in his account represent. |
1080 | 01:17:01,893 | 01:17:03,854 | Where is that money coming from? | Where is that money coming from? |
1081 | 01:17:04,020 | 01:17:07,107 | It's coming through Roy, but where is that coming from? | It's coming through Roy, but where is that coming from? |
1082 | 01:17:09,651 | 01:17:11,736 | Two years ago, Richard Dupont had this idea. | Two years ago, Richard Dupont had this idea. |
1083 | 01:17:11,903 | 01:17:14,572 | He would open a health club in the West Village for gays. | He would open a health club in the West Village for gays. |
1084 | 01:17:14,739 | 01:17:18,868 | He took over an abandoned 6-story warehouse on Greenwich street, | He took over an abandoned 6-story warehouse on Greenwich street, |
1085 | 01:17:19,035 | 01:17:22,997 | and spent the next year and almost one million dollars renovating it. | and spent the next year and almost one million dollars renovating it. |
1086 | 01:17:23,164 | 01:17:25,333 | What I think most people are afraid of | What I think most people are afraid of |
1087 | 01:17:25,500 | 01:17:30,004 | is the very fact that they may see homosexual people as real people, | is the very fact that they may see homosexual people as real people, |
1088 | 01:17:30,171 | 01:17:32,799 | as people who aren't deviants and perverts. | as people who aren't deviants and perverts. |
1089 | 01:17:34,592 | 01:17:38,096 | Richard Dupont originally met Roy in Miami Beach, | Richard Dupont originally met Roy in Miami Beach, |
1090 | 01:17:38,262 | 01:17:41,182 | where he turned a trick for Roy as a gay prostitute. | where he turned a trick for Roy as a gay prostitute. |
1091 | 01:17:42,266 | 01:17:45,770 | Richard Dupont was a grifter, a guy who lived on his wits. | Richard Dupont was a grifter, a guy who lived on his wits. |
1092 | 01:17:46,938 | 01:17:49,690 | And such people could be useful to Roy Cohn. | And such people could be useful to Roy Cohn. |
1093 | 01:17:51,984 | 01:17:54,195 | Ray Kiley, N. Y. County District Attorney's office, | Ray Kiley, N. Y. County District Attorney's office, |
1094 | 01:17:54,362 | 01:17:58,908 | today is July 17, 1980, the time is now 4:25 pm. | today is July 17, 1980, the time is now 4:25 pm. |
1095 | 01:17:59,075 | 01:18:02,161 | -Hello? -My name is Richard Dupont. | -Hello? -My name is Richard Dupont. |
1096 | 01:18:02,328 | 01:18:06,499 | It's very simple Mr. Kiley. Mr. Cohn was my partner in a health club. | It's very simple Mr. Kiley. Mr. Cohn was my partner in a health club. |
1097 | 01:18:08,459 | 01:18:13,172 | And unfortunately, Roy sold me out for a half a million dollars. | And unfortunately, Roy sold me out for a half a million dollars. |
1098 | 01:18:13,339 | 01:18:16,801 | Whatever legal procedures I can go after Mr. Cohn I will do it. | Whatever legal procedures I can go after Mr. Cohn I will do it. |
1099 | 01:18:18,552 | 01:18:20,262 | And the guy decided to wreck revenge. | And the guy decided to wreck revenge. |
1100 | 01:18:20,429 | 01:18:23,098 | And he got to Roy like no one else got to Roy, ever. | And he got to Roy like no one else got to Roy, ever. |
1101 | 01:18:25,309 | 01:18:29,938 | He would call the airline and say, 'This is Roy Cohn calling. | He would call the airline and say, 'This is Roy Cohn calling. |
1102 | 01:18:30,105 | 01:18:34,276 | You know my reservation for 2 o'clock to Texas? Cancel it. ' | You know my reservation for 2 o'clock to Texas? Cancel it. ' |
1103 | 01:18:34,443 | 01:18:38,322 | Roy Cohn would show up with his bags and his reservation had been canceled. | Roy Cohn would show up with his bags and his reservation had been canceled. |
1104 | 01:18:40,657 | 01:18:43,785 | At the Ford shareholders meeting, a woman came | At the Ford shareholders meeting, a woman came |
1105 | 01:18:43,952 | 01:18:49,458 | with a delivery of flowers for him, and the flowers were wilted. | with a delivery of flowers for him, and the flowers were wilted. |
1106 | 01:18:49,625 | 01:18:53,962 | There was a note with the flowers , 'Roy Cohn can lick anyone!' | There was a note with the flowers , 'Roy Cohn can lick anyone!' |
1107 | 01:18:55,380 | 01:18:57,507 | I believe that was a double entendre. | I believe that was a double entendre. |
1108 | 01:18:59,468 | 01:19:03,638 | One morning, where Roy's office was on East 68th street, | One morning, where Roy's office was on East 68th street, |
1109 | 01:19:03,805 | 01:19:06,641 | for the whole block, every five feet, | for the whole block, every five feet, |
1110 | 01:19:06,808 | 01:19:10,937 | there was a stenciled message: 'Roy Cohn is a Fag.' | there was a stenciled message: 'Roy Cohn is a Fag.' |
1111 | 01:19:13,356 | 01:19:15,984 | Roy was going crazy. | Roy was going crazy. |
1112 | 01:19:16,151 | 01:19:19,279 | I mean this is the devil, visiting the devil, as it were. | I mean this is the devil, visiting the devil, as it were. |
1113 | 01:19:22,907 | 01:19:24,909 | -Hello, Richard? -Yes. | -Hello, Richard? -Yes. |
1114 | 01:19:25,076 | 01:19:27,829 | -Roy Cohn. -Yes, Roy. How are you? | -Roy Cohn. -Yes, Roy. How are you? |
1115 | 01:19:27,996 | 01:19:32,125 | -Richard, when is this going to stop? -When is what going to stop now? | -Richard, when is this going to stop? -When is what going to stop now? |
1116 | 01:19:33,543 | 01:19:36,421 | I don't know where to start. I don't know what you want of me, | I don't know where to start. I don't know what you want of me, |
1117 | 01:19:36,588 | 01:19:38,756 | and I don't know how much it is you expect me to take. | and I don't know how much it is you expect me to take. |
1118 | 01:19:38,923 | 01:19:40,758 | You call up the Greenwich police department, | You call up the Greenwich police department, |
1119 | 01:19:40,925 | 01:19:43,761 | an evening that I had a bunch of people up there. | an evening that I had a bunch of people up there. |
1120 | 01:19:43,928 | 01:19:47,390 | Said a man had been stabbed to death in the house, and others are in danger. | Said a man had been stabbed to death in the house, and others are in danger. |
1121 | 01:19:47,557 | 01:19:50,351 | You called the fire department, said the place was burning. | You called the fire department, said the place was burning. |
1122 | 01:19:50,518 | 01:19:53,521 | And a half hour later, we had a house full of police and firemen. | And a half hour later, we had a house full of police and firemen. |
1123 | 01:19:53,688 | 01:19:55,565 | I have never called the police on you. | I have never called the police on you. |
1124 | 01:19:55,731 | 01:19:57,275 | What do you mean, "on me?" | What do you mean, "on me?" |
1125 | 01:19:57,442 | 01:19:59,986 | You said to me I called the police department on you. | You said to me I called the police department on you. |
1126 | 01:20:00,153 | 01:20:03,322 | You seem to put some magic in the words, "on you." | You seem to put some magic in the words, "on you." |
1127 | 01:20:03,489 | 01:20:06,200 | -I know you called the police. -I did not call the police. | -I know you called the police. -I did not call the police. |
1128 | 01:20:06,367 | 01:20:09,662 | I don't play with dynamite. And that's dynamite. | I don't play with dynamite. And that's dynamite. |
1129 | 01:20:10,955 | 01:20:14,291 | I would just urge you and implore you to please stop. | I would just urge you and implore you to please stop. |
1130 | 01:20:16,836 | 01:20:20,339 | I'm surprised he didn't have him killed, but maybe it would too obvious. | I'm surprised he didn't have him killed, but maybe it would too obvious. |
1131 | 01:20:20,506 | 01:20:23,843 | He couldn't scare him off. And Dupont just kept going. | He couldn't scare him off. And Dupont just kept going. |
1132 | 01:20:33,769 | 01:20:36,814 | In 1980, on Gay Pride day, | In 1980, on Gay Pride day, |
1133 | 01:20:36,981 | 01:20:40,442 | there was a publication of a magazine called Now East, | there was a publication of a magazine called Now East, |
1134 | 01:20:40,609 | 01:20:44,321 | which contained all of Dupont's fantasies about Roy Cohn. | which contained all of Dupont's fantasies about Roy Cohn. |
1135 | 01:20:50,035 | 01:20:53,455 | It's obvious that you are out to do in Roy. | It's obvious that you are out to do in Roy. |
1136 | 01:20:55,332 | 01:20:57,376 | Do you think that you'll outlast Roy? | Do you think that you'll outlast Roy? |
1137 | 01:20:57,542 | 01:21:00,921 | God! The second issue. | God! The second issue. |
1138 | 01:21:01,088 | 01:21:03,048 | The second issue is going to do him in you think? | The second issue is going to do him in you think? |
1139 | 01:21:03,215 | 01:21:06,009 | -And the third issue. -There's a third one coming too? | -And the third issue. -There's a third one coming too? |
1140 | 01:21:06,176 | 01:21:07,761 | Yes, there will be every issue. | Yes, there will be every issue. |
1141 | 01:21:07,928 | 01:21:10,097 | How long's this magazine going to go on? | How long's this magazine going to go on? |
1142 | 01:21:10,263 | 01:21:12,766 | People eventually may become bored with Roy Cohn. | People eventually may become bored with Roy Cohn. |
1143 | 01:21:12,933 | 01:21:16,561 | I don't know whether they'll be become bored with Roy Cohn or not. | I don't know whether they'll be become bored with Roy Cohn or not. |
1144 | 01:21:18,897 | 01:21:21,483 | These were distributed, they were left in restaurants, | These were distributed, they were left in restaurants, |
1145 | 01:21:21,650 | 01:21:24,736 | fancy clothing stores, gay bars. | fancy clothing stores, gay bars. |
1146 | 01:21:26,488 | 01:21:32,577 | Roy was genuinely agitated and Roy didn't show anxiety easily. | Roy was genuinely agitated and Roy didn't show anxiety easily. |
1147 | 01:21:32,744 | 01:21:37,040 | 'I'm gonna get that motherfucker. I'm gonna kill him. This is gonna end. ' | 'I'm gonna get that motherfucker. I'm gonna kill him. This is gonna end. ' |
1148 | 01:21:37,207 | 01:21:39,793 | We have a story about a man who is now charged with a violent crime, | We have a story about a man who is now charged with a violent crime, |
1149 | 01:21:39,959 | 01:21:41,961 | but he is the object of a lot of attention | but he is the object of a lot of attention |
1150 | 01:21:42,128 | 01:21:43,588 | from the Manhattan district attorney. | from the Manhattan district attorney. |
1151 | 01:21:43,755 | 01:21:45,673 | This is Richard Dupont. | This is Richard Dupont. |
1152 | 01:21:45,840 | 01:21:49,677 | He was arrested in what his lawyer described as a 'pre-dawn raid,' | He was arrested in what his lawyer described as a 'pre-dawn raid,' |
1153 | 01:21:49,844 | 01:21:53,348 | in which four detectives came crashing into his apartment. | in which four detectives came crashing into his apartment. |
1154 | 01:21:53,514 | 01:21:56,768 | I received information from my client, | I received information from my client, |
1155 | 01:21:56,934 | 01:22:00,855 | that he had learned from associates of Mr. Cohn, | that he had learned from associates of Mr. Cohn, |
1156 | 01:22:01,022 | 01:22:02,857 | that he was to be indicted on Friday. | that he was to be indicted on Friday. |
1157 | 01:22:04,734 | 01:22:07,945 | Were we here because of Now East? Baloney. | Were we here because of Now East? Baloney. |
1158 | 01:22:09,071 | 01:22:11,741 | We're here because Richard had the temerity | We're here because Richard had the temerity |
1159 | 01:22:11,908 | 01:22:14,619 | to ignore that warning and mess with Roy Cohn. | to ignore that warning and mess with Roy Cohn. |
1160 | 01:22:16,120 | 01:22:19,582 | I think that this is Roy's chance to go after somebody. | I think that this is Roy's chance to go after somebody. |
1161 | 01:22:19,749 | 01:22:22,084 | Because no one else has ever done these things to Roy. | Because no one else has ever done these things to Roy. |
1162 | 01:22:22,251 | 01:22:23,627 | No matter who they are. | No matter who they are. |
1163 | 01:22:27,214 | 01:22:29,508 | He was acquitted the first two counts, | He was acquitted the first two counts, |
1164 | 01:22:29,675 | 01:22:32,511 | but he was convicted of four or five misdemeanors. | but he was convicted of four or five misdemeanors. |
1165 | 01:22:32,678 | 01:22:35,514 | Misdemeanor clients don't go to penitentiaries. | Misdemeanor clients don't go to penitentiaries. |
1166 | 01:22:35,681 | 01:22:39,476 | And I felt at the time, given who he was dealing with, | And I felt at the time, given who he was dealing with, |
1167 | 01:22:39,643 | 01:22:43,897 | the virtual member of organized crime, | the virtual member of organized crime, |
1168 | 01:22:44,064 | 01:22:45,941 | or the attorney Roy Cohn, | or the attorney Roy Cohn, |
1169 | 01:22:46,108 | 01:22:48,027 | that Richard wouldn't have lasted in a penitentiary. | that Richard wouldn't have lasted in a penitentiary. |
1170 | 01:22:48,193 | 01:22:52,489 | And Richard Dupont as I recall served 18 months in state prison | And Richard Dupont as I recall served 18 months in state prison |
1171 | 01:22:52,656 | 01:22:54,283 | for fucking with Roy Cohn. | for fucking with Roy Cohn. |
1172 | 01:22:54,450 | 01:22:56,785 | Don't mess with Roy Cohn. Moral of the story. | Don't mess with Roy Cohn. Moral of the story. |
1173 | 01:23:08,130 | 01:23:10,966 | In the eighties, you could be fired as a school teacher | In the eighties, you could be fired as a school teacher |
1174 | 01:23:11,133 | 01:23:13,510 | if you were known to be gay. | if you were known to be gay. |
1175 | 01:23:13,677 | 01:23:15,804 | You could be denied an apartment. | You could be denied an apartment. |
1176 | 01:23:15,971 | 01:23:19,766 | That happened constantly in a liberal bastion like New York City. | That happened constantly in a liberal bastion like New York City. |
1177 | 01:23:20,892 | 01:23:25,814 | You could be denied service in a restaurant or a bar. | You could be denied service in a restaurant or a bar. |
1178 | 01:23:25,981 | 01:23:28,066 | You had no recourse. | You had no recourse. |
1179 | 01:23:28,233 | 01:23:33,571 | For 15 years, the Gay Rights Bill came up for a vote, and it was voted down. | For 15 years, the Gay Rights Bill came up for a vote, and it was voted down. |
1180 | 01:23:33,738 | 01:23:38,785 | My greatest concern is not about open restaurants or this gay rights bill. | My greatest concern is not about open restaurants or this gay rights bill. |
1181 | 01:23:40,161 | 01:23:44,207 | I think if you are a man about things and you can fight your own fights, | I think if you are a man about things and you can fight your own fights, |
1182 | 01:23:44,374 | 01:23:47,377 | things come out okay in the long run. | things come out okay in the long run. |
1183 | 01:23:47,544 | 01:23:51,798 | Roy Cohn was very involved with politics in New York City. | Roy Cohn was very involved with politics in New York City. |
1184 | 01:23:51,965 | 01:23:55,552 | He was a lobbyist and spokesperson for the archdiocese of New York, | He was a lobbyist and spokesperson for the archdiocese of New York, |
1185 | 01:23:55,718 | 01:24:00,181 | which in those years was very powerful politically, | which in those years was very powerful politically, |
1186 | 01:24:00,348 | 01:24:04,686 | because the cardinal of New York had enormous control and veto power | because the cardinal of New York had enormous control and veto power |
1187 | 01:24:04,852 | 01:24:06,396 | over legislation on the City Council. | over legislation on the City Council. |
1188 | 01:24:08,064 | 01:24:10,566 | Roy Cohn started making public comments. | Roy Cohn started making public comments. |
1189 | 01:24:14,946 | 01:24:17,532 | First of all, I don't like any of these rights bills. | First of all, I don't like any of these rights bills. |
1190 | 01:24:17,698 | 01:24:21,786 | Women's rights bill as such was defeated in New York very properly. | Women's rights bill as such was defeated in New York very properly. |
1191 | 01:24:21,953 | 01:24:24,789 | I don't like that. If the Gay Rights Bill goes to a referendum, | I don't like that. If the Gay Rights Bill goes to a referendum, |
1192 | 01:24:24,956 | 01:24:26,749 | I think the people will defeat that too. | I think the people will defeat that too. |
1193 | 01:24:26,916 | 01:24:29,043 | I think that there are features of that bill | I think that there are features of that bill |
1194 | 01:24:29,210 | 01:24:32,630 | that constitutes a clear and present danger | that constitutes a clear and present danger |
1195 | 01:24:32,797 | 01:24:36,175 | to the upbringing of children and to family life, | to the upbringing of children and to family life, |
1196 | 01:24:36,342 | 01:24:39,303 | and I don't think it's a cut and dried issue at all. | and I don't think it's a cut and dried issue at all. |
1197 | 01:24:42,014 | 01:24:45,517 | Taking a very public, hostile stance to gay people | Taking a very public, hostile stance to gay people |
1198 | 01:24:45,684 | 01:24:49,229 | made everybody who wasn't in the know feel, | made everybody who wasn't in the know feel, |
1199 | 01:24:49,396 | 01:24:53,400 | 'There's a rumor that Roy Cohn is a homosexual, that's ridiculous.' | 'There's a rumor that Roy Cohn is a homosexual, that's ridiculous.' |
1200 | 01:24:54,943 | 01:24:57,780 | The other thing was the Catholic Church. | The other thing was the Catholic Church. |
1201 | 01:24:57,946 | 01:24:59,782 | And they had a similar problem. | And they had a similar problem. |
1202 | 01:25:02,159 | 01:25:06,538 | Cardinal Spellman was thought by many people to be gay. | Cardinal Spellman was thought by many people to be gay. |
1203 | 01:25:06,705 | 01:25:10,042 | He was a very close social friend of Roy Cohn's, | He was a very close social friend of Roy Cohn's, |
1204 | 01:25:10,209 | 01:25:12,502 | and he was very reactionary. | and he was very reactionary. |
1205 | 01:25:13,712 | 01:25:18,216 | That's the environment that Roy Cohn reinforced | That's the environment that Roy Cohn reinforced |
1206 | 01:25:18,383 | 01:25:24,514 | and pushed and supported in a way that oppressed millions of people. | and pushed and supported in a way that oppressed millions of people. |
1207 | 01:25:24,681 | 01:25:29,436 | To know that this man was actively gay | To know that this man was actively gay |
1208 | 01:25:29,603 | 01:25:34,774 | in his personal life, his social life and his sex life and so on. | in his personal life, his social life and his sex life and so on. |
1209 | 01:25:34,941 | 01:25:41,031 | Again, I say the ninth circle of hell is reserved for hypocrites. | Again, I say the ninth circle of hell is reserved for hypocrites. |
1210 | 01:25:42,282 | 01:25:44,659 | -You feel pretty good? -I feel great. | -You feel pretty good? -I feel great. |
1211 | 01:25:44,826 | 01:25:49,456 | You were at death's door 6 months ago, 3 months ago? | You were at death's door 6 months ago, 3 months ago? |
1212 | 01:25:49,622 | 01:25:53,543 | I was shaving one morning and I felt a little bump. | I was shaving one morning and I felt a little bump. |
1213 | 01:25:53,710 | 01:25:57,630 | I called the doctor he said, 'Come in,' and they did a biopsy', | I called the doctor he said, 'Come in,' and they did a biopsy', |
1214 | 01:25:57,797 | 01:26:02,218 | and they found I had liver cancer, which spreads | and they found I had liver cancer, which spreads |
1215 | 01:26:04,512 | 01:26:06,180 | in strange directions. | in strange directions. |
1216 | 01:26:06,347 | 01:26:11,185 | I was treated for 3 and a half weeks at the National Institute of Health. | I was treated for 3 and a half weeks at the National Institute of Health. |
1217 | 01:26:13,646 | 01:26:17,608 | He told me he was in an experimental program for liver cancer. | He told me he was in an experimental program for liver cancer. |
1218 | 01:26:17,775 | 01:26:21,154 | I think they did not have an experimental program for liver cancer. | I think they did not have an experimental program for liver cancer. |
1219 | 01:26:21,320 | 01:26:23,489 | It was trying AZT and other drugs for AIDs. | It was trying AZT and other drugs for AIDs. |
1220 | 01:26:23,656 | 01:26:26,117 | Health officials will announce today whether an anti-aids drug | Health officials will announce today whether an anti-aids drug |
1221 | 01:26:26,284 | 01:26:28,953 | is safe enough for widespread use against the disease. | is safe enough for widespread use against the disease. |
1222 | 01:26:29,120 | 01:26:34,292 | The drug AZT has been tested on 140 aids patients around the country. | The drug AZT has been tested on 140 aids patients around the country. |
1223 | 01:26:34,458 | 01:26:38,629 | While AZT does not cure the disease, it does reduce some of its symptoms. | While AZT does not cure the disease, it does reduce some of its symptoms. |
1224 | 01:26:38,796 | 01:26:41,132 | Did you get that radical treatment at NIH | Did you get that radical treatment at NIH |
1225 | 01:26:41,298 | 01:26:44,051 | that that Doctor, Rosenberg I believe, is now doing? | that that Doctor, Rosenberg I believe, is now doing? |
1226 | 01:26:44,218 | 01:26:46,011 | -No. -You did not undergo that? | -No. -You did not undergo that? |
1227 | 01:26:46,178 | 01:26:47,888 | No. I did not undergo that. | No. I did not undergo that. |
1228 | 01:26:50,808 | 01:26:52,810 | -You scored! -Impressively! | -You scored! -Impressively! |
1229 | 01:26:52,977 | 01:26:55,646 | There may be 30 people in the whole country getting this drug? | There may be 30 people in the whole country getting this drug? |
1230 | 01:26:55,813 | 01:27:00,234 | -Now there are 31. -There are 100 000 people who need it. | -Now there are 31. -There are 100 000 people who need it. |
1231 | 01:27:09,284 | 01:27:12,329 | He spent a lot of time here when he had AIDs. | He spent a lot of time here when he had AIDs. |
1232 | 01:27:12,496 | 01:27:16,708 | That's when I would see his poor, diminished body, | That's when I would see his poor, diminished body, |
1233 | 01:27:16,875 | 01:27:18,460 | 'cause I lost a lot of friends too. | 'cause I lost a lot of friends too. |
1234 | 01:27:22,589 | 01:27:26,468 | The town was so struck by AIDs, three quarters of my friends died. | The town was so struck by AIDs, three quarters of my friends died. |
1235 | 01:27:28,595 | 01:27:31,640 | He was one of the whole town that was dying basically. | He was one of the whole town that was dying basically. |
1236 | 01:27:34,643 | 01:27:38,647 | I wonder what Roy thought about the fact that he got AIDs. | I wonder what Roy thought about the fact that he got AIDs. |
1237 | 01:27:40,315 | 01:27:44,653 | Those that escaped it, and those that didn't, but not Roy Cohn. | Those that escaped it, and those that didn't, but not Roy Cohn. |
1238 | 01:27:46,029 | 01:27:47,822 | He shouldn't have gotten AIDs. | He shouldn't have gotten AIDs. |
1239 | 01:27:49,032 | 01:27:50,408 | Right? | Right? |
1240 | 01:27:51,785 | 01:27:53,161 | I felt sorry for him. | I felt sorry for him. |
1241 | 01:27:55,038 | 01:27:57,832 | Doesn't mean I liked him or approved what he did, | Doesn't mean I liked him or approved what he did, |
1242 | 01:27:57,999 | 01:28:01,044 | but I felt sorry for him as an individual. | but I felt sorry for him as an individual. |
1243 | 01:28:01,211 | 01:28:03,880 | He didn't hide in that corner. It was right over there. | He didn't hide in that corner. It was right over there. |
1244 | 01:28:04,047 | 01:28:07,550 | But he didn't want to be out there, | But he didn't want to be out there, |
1245 | 01:28:07,717 | 01:28:12,263 | he wanted to show the poor kid he was with that he did have a life here. | he wanted to show the poor kid he was with that he did have a life here. |
1246 | 01:28:12,430 | 01:28:13,848 | And he certainly couldn't take him dancing, | And he certainly couldn't take him dancing, |
1247 | 01:28:14,015 | 01:28:16,601 | he was at the point where he couldn't walk, never mind dance. | he was at the point where he couldn't walk, never mind dance. |
1248 | 01:28:18,519 | 01:28:20,897 | He was gay, and he was sick, | He was gay, and he was sick, |
1249 | 01:28:21,064 | 01:28:24,067 | and he's got this child with him that he's infecting. | and he's got this child with him that he's infecting. |
1250 | 01:28:25,151 | 01:28:27,528 | This really is sick. | This really is sick. |
1251 | 01:28:28,988 | 01:28:33,034 | I was looking at a broken man, and it was everything he didn't want to be. | I was looking at a broken man, and it was everything he didn't want to be. |
1252 | 01:28:37,371 | 01:28:41,459 | -Do you have AIDs? -No. That's easy to answer. | -Do you have AIDs? -No. That's easy to answer. |
1253 | 01:28:46,505 | 01:28:49,050 | I'm going, Ethel. | I'm going, Ethel. |
1254 | 01:28:49,216 | 01:28:55,181 | Finally done with this world at long, long last. | Finally done with this world at long, long last. |
1255 | 01:28:55,347 | 01:28:58,767 | The Almighty parts the sea of death, | The Almighty parts the sea of death, |
1256 | 01:28:58,934 | 01:29:02,855 | and lets his Roy boy cross over to Jordan | and lets his Roy boy cross over to Jordan |
1257 | 01:29:04,273 | 01:29:08,944 | on dry land had still a lawyer. | on dry land had still a lawyer. |
1258 | 01:29:09,111 | 01:29:12,781 | Don't count your chickens, Roy. It's over! | Don't count your chickens, Roy. It's over! |
1259 | 01:29:14,825 | 01:29:18,620 | -Over? -I wanted the news to come from me. | -Over? -I wanted the news to come from me. |
1260 | 01:29:20,289 | 01:29:23,292 | The panel ruled against you, Roy. | The panel ruled against you, Roy. |
1261 | 01:29:23,458 | 01:29:27,629 | No, they only started meeting two days ago. | No, they only started meeting two days ago. |
1262 | 01:29:27,796 | 01:29:30,299 | They recommended disbarment. | They recommended disbarment. |
1263 | 01:29:30,465 | 01:29:34,970 | Why do you think they're after you? There are disbarment proceedings... | Why do you think they're after you? There are disbarment proceedings... |
1264 | 01:29:35,137 | 01:29:36,763 | We're talking about two cases | We're talking about two cases |
1265 | 01:29:36,930 | 01:29:41,977 | in neither one of which anyone was injured even slightly, except me. | in neither one of which anyone was injured even slightly, except me. |
1266 | 01:29:42,144 | 01:29:45,772 | He borrowed 100,000 dollars from a client, Ivy Schlesinger, | He borrowed 100,000 dollars from a client, Ivy Schlesinger, |
1267 | 01:29:45,939 | 01:29:48,358 | and then despite his numerous written promises, | and then despite his numerous written promises, |
1268 | 01:29:48,525 | 01:29:52,028 | he failed to repay her that 100,000 dollars. | he failed to repay her that 100,000 dollars. |
1269 | 01:29:52,195 | 01:29:55,699 | I had taken her case, handled it for two years. | I had taken her case, handled it for two years. |
1270 | 01:29:55,865 | 01:29:59,119 | Never gotten a dime for a retainer. | Never gotten a dime for a retainer. |
1271 | 01:29:59,286 | 01:30:01,913 | Until I had gotten her 3.5 million dollars. | Until I had gotten her 3.5 million dollars. |
1272 | 01:30:02,080 | 01:30:03,790 | -But was it a loan? -Pardon me? | -But was it a loan? -Pardon me? |
1273 | 01:30:03,957 | 01:30:05,333 | But was it a loan? | But was it a loan? |
1274 | 01:30:05,500 | 01:30:08,420 | It's one of those words that's so difficult to define. | It's one of those words that's so difficult to define. |
1275 | 01:30:08,586 | 01:30:09,963 | What is a loan? | What is a loan? |
1276 | 01:30:10,964 | 01:30:13,466 | Anyone who knows me knows I don't plead. | Anyone who knows me knows I don't plead. |
1277 | 01:30:13,633 | 01:30:15,593 | And I'm not pleading in this case. | And I'm not pleading in this case. |
1278 | 01:30:15,760 | 01:30:19,847 | He's fighting for his life, and on some level more importantly his reputation. | He's fighting for his life, and on some level more importantly his reputation. |
1279 | 01:30:21,849 | 01:30:27,522 | He probably cried more over the disbarment than the AIDs diagnosis. | He probably cried more over the disbarment than the AIDs diagnosis. |
1280 | 01:30:27,689 | 01:30:29,691 | That's how important it was to him. | That's how important it was to him. |
1281 | 01:30:30,817 | 01:30:34,445 | In this last interview, I show up in Florida and I was taken aback, | In this last interview, I show up in Florida and I was taken aback, |
1282 | 01:30:34,612 | 01:30:38,282 | because I hadn't seen in him in about a year and he was extremely frail. | because I hadn't seen in him in about a year and he was extremely frail. |
1283 | 01:30:39,492 | 01:30:42,078 | He had lost a lot of weight, he had to be helped into a chair, | He had lost a lot of weight, he had to be helped into a chair, |
1284 | 01:30:42,245 | 01:30:45,373 | his clothes were baggy, but he was game. | his clothes were baggy, but he was game. |
1285 | 01:30:45,540 | 01:30:47,583 | He wanted to get stuff off of his chest | He wanted to get stuff off of his chest |
1286 | 01:30:47,750 | 01:30:51,629 | and we talked for an hour or so in this mansion that was, | and we talked for an hour or so in this mansion that was, |
1287 | 01:30:51,796 | 01:30:53,381 | I don't even remember whose it was, | I don't even remember whose it was, |
1288 | 01:30:53,547 | 01:30:55,466 | but it was this beautiful mansion on Worth Avenue, | but it was this beautiful mansion on Worth Avenue, |
1289 | 01:30:55,633 | 01:30:57,343 | and then we went out to dinner. | and then we went out to dinner. |
1290 | 01:30:57,510 | 01:31:02,389 | And I asked him, what do you think about now, what do you dream about, | And I asked him, what do you think about now, what do you dream about, |
1291 | 01:31:02,556 | 01:31:06,143 | and he said, I dream about death, and I think about my funeral. | and he said, I dream about death, and I think about my funeral. |
1292 | 01:31:07,436 | 01:31:10,689 | My guess is that it hasn't been very pleasant for you at all | My guess is that it hasn't been very pleasant for you at all |
1293 | 01:31:10,856 | 01:31:13,192 | reading these reports and watching everybody. | reading these reports and watching everybody. |
1294 | 01:31:13,359 | 01:31:16,779 | The tabloids in New York are calling it a "Death Bed Battle". | The tabloids in New York are calling it a "Death Bed Battle". |
1295 | 01:31:17,905 | 01:31:21,492 | I'll tell you how I've felt. I have felt as though I died. | I'll tell you how I've felt. I have felt as though I died. |
1296 | 01:31:22,951 | 01:31:27,706 | And then I have been present at my own memorial service, | And then I have been present at my own memorial service, |
1297 | 01:31:27,873 | 01:31:30,834 | noted who was there and who was not there, | noted who was there and who was not there, |
1298 | 01:31:31,001 | 01:31:33,670 | got the word on who said what, you know like: | got the word on who said what, you know like: |
1299 | 01:31:33,837 | 01:31:36,423 | good, the S.O.B. isn't around anymore | good, the S.O.B. isn't around anymore |
1300 | 01:31:36,590 | 01:31:39,134 | or what a shame, he was a tough fighter, | or what a shame, he was a tough fighter, |
1301 | 01:31:39,301 | 01:31:41,011 | but he was really a good guy. | but he was really a good guy. |
1302 | 01:31:42,054 | 01:31:43,972 | You actually went through all of this in your mind? | You actually went through all of this in your mind? |
1303 | 01:31:44,139 | 01:31:45,599 | All of it, everything! | All of it, everything! |
1304 | 01:31:56,526 | 01:31:59,237 | You have to make a very special wish. | You have to make a very special wish. |
1305 | 01:31:59,404 | 01:32:02,073 | Did he feel that people were abandoning him? | Did he feel that people were abandoning him? |
1306 | 01:32:02,240 | 01:32:06,870 | I'm not sure that he would ever show that side of him. | I'm not sure that he would ever show that side of him. |
1307 | 01:32:08,455 | 01:32:12,334 | But there are some of us who don't abandon friends. | But there are some of us who don't abandon friends. |
1308 | 01:32:12,500 | 01:32:13,877 | No matter what. | No matter what. |
1309 | 01:32:15,295 | 01:32:20,175 | Donald was plugged in. And I'm sure he had heard that Roy had AIDs. | Donald was plugged in. And I'm sure he had heard that Roy had AIDs. |
1310 | 01:32:20,341 | 01:32:23,803 | When he's dying, Trump pulls away. And it hurt Roy. | When he's dying, Trump pulls away. And it hurt Roy. |
1311 | 01:32:25,013 | 01:32:27,557 | He felt like he had done a lot to promote, | He felt like he had done a lot to promote, |
1312 | 01:32:27,724 | 01:32:30,143 | to help bring Donald Trump along. | to help bring Donald Trump along. |
1313 | 01:32:30,310 | 01:32:32,895 | Ladies and gentlemen, please join me in a salute | Ladies and gentlemen, please join me in a salute |
1314 | 01:32:33,062 | 01:32:35,732 | to a winner and friend: Mr. Donald Trump. | to a winner and friend: Mr. Donald Trump. |
1315 | 01:32:39,861 | 01:32:45,241 | Thank you. I would like to introduce my family: my wife, Ivana; my father, Fred; | Thank you. I would like to introduce my family: my wife, Ivana; my father, Fred; |
1316 | 01:32:45,408 | 01:32:48,494 | my sister, the Judge, thanks to the president. | my sister, the Judge, thanks to the president. |
1317 | 01:32:50,663 | 01:32:52,623 | It was a wrenching thing to watch. | It was a wrenching thing to watch. |
1318 | 01:32:55,585 | 01:33:00,631 | But a lot of Roy's so-called friends blew him off after he got sick. | But a lot of Roy's so-called friends blew him off after he got sick. |
1319 | 01:33:04,969 | 01:33:07,555 | Roy Cohn, the unorthodox and colorful lawyer | Roy Cohn, the unorthodox and colorful lawyer |
1320 | 01:33:07,722 | 01:33:10,850 | who may have made more prominent enemies and more prominent friends | who may have made more prominent enemies and more prominent friends |
1321 | 01:33:11,016 | 01:33:13,185 | than any American of his time, is dead. | than any American of his time, is dead. |
1322 | 01:33:13,352 | 01:33:15,479 | Cohn died earlier this morning of a heart attack. | Cohn died earlier this morning of a heart attack. |
1323 | 01:33:15,646 | 01:33:18,649 | The virus HTLV3, which is believed to cause AIDs, | The virus HTLV3, which is believed to cause AIDs, |
1324 | 01:33:18,816 | 01:33:21,360 | was listed as a secondary cause of death. | was listed as a secondary cause of death. |
1325 | 01:33:39,711 | 01:33:42,130 | How do you want to be remembered? | How do you want to be remembered? |
1326 | 01:33:42,297 | 01:33:44,007 | I have no choice. | I have no choice. |
1327 | 01:33:44,174 | 01:33:47,261 | I know how I am going to be Joe McCarthy's Chief Counsel | I know how I am going to be Joe McCarthy's Chief Counsel |
1328 | 01:33:47,427 | 01:33:48,845 | for the rest of my life, | for the rest of my life, |
1329 | 01:33:49,012 | 01:33:52,099 | no matter what else good or bad I should ever do. | no matter what else good or bad I should ever do. |
1330 | 01:33:56,269 | 01:33:59,689 | If you could turn back the clock to 1953 or 4... | If you could turn back the clock to 1953 or 4... |
1331 | 01:33:59,856 | 01:34:02,025 | -Would you do anything differently? -Sure. | -Would you do anything differently? -Sure. |
1332 | 01:34:02,192 | 01:34:05,904 | Who, 25, 30 years later wouldn't do something differently? | Who, 25, 30 years later wouldn't do something differently? |
1333 | 01:34:06,071 | 01:34:08,615 | Do you think you were too abrasive as some people say? | Do you think you were too abrasive as some people say? |
1334 | 01:34:08,782 | 01:34:11,534 | Sure. But I'm not sure | Sure. But I'm not sure |
1335 | 01:34:11,701 | 01:34:15,622 | if I haven't been too aggressive if I could've gotten any results. | if I haven't been too aggressive if I could've gotten any results. |
1336 | 01:34:15,789 | 01:34:18,625 | What do you say to people who say you ruined people's lives? | What do you say to people who say you ruined people's lives? |
1337 | 01:34:18,792 | 01:34:21,920 | I say name one. | I say name one. |
1338 | 01:34:22,087 | 01:34:24,380 | Because I know what the truth is and they don't. | Because I know what the truth is and they don't. |