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1 00:00:40,413 00:00:44,250 This is my grandfather, Julius Rosenberg, This is my grandfather, Julius Rosenberg,
2 00:00:44,417 00:00:48,588 and this is Julius and Ethel Rosenberg together. and this is Julius and Ethel Rosenberg together.
3 00:00:49,964 00:00:52,091 My father and my uncle My father and my uncle
4 00:00:52,258 00:00:58,097 were around ten and six were around ten and six
5 00:01:01,392 00:01:03,185 when they were electrocuted. when they were electrocuted.
6 00:01:05,521 00:01:08,482 They were accused of stealing the Atom Bomb Secret. They were accused of stealing the Atom Bomb Secret.
7 00:01:10,192 00:01:15,072 I want to ask my dad how people started thinking I want to ask my dad how people started thinking
8 00:01:15,239 00:01:19,368 about why Ethel and Julius stole the Atom Bomb Secret. about why Ethel and Julius stole the Atom Bomb Secret.
9 00:01:19,535 00:01:21,036 Why he accused 'em? Why he accused 'em?
10 00:01:21,203 00:01:24,415 What happened was that the government of the United States What happened was that the government of the United States
11 00:01:24,582 00:01:29,503 wanted to make your Grandma and Grandpa wanted to make your Grandma and Grandpa
12 00:01:29,670 00:01:32,589 make up some lies about a lot of people, make up some lies about a lot of people,
13 00:01:32,756 00:01:35,926 so that these people, who the government of the US didn't like, so that these people, who the government of the US didn't like,
14 00:01:36,093 00:01:38,429 would all get put in jail. would all get put in jail.
15 00:01:38,595 00:01:44,476 But they refused to tell those lies. If they did, other people would be killed. But they refused to tell those lies. If they did, other people would be killed.
16 00:01:44,643 00:01:50,148 What I want to do, is I want to say, to the people who killed my parents, What I want to do, is I want to say, to the people who killed my parents,
17 00:01:50,315 00:01:54,528 25 years ago you killed two people but you did not crush our struggle. 25 years ago you killed two people but you did not crush our struggle.
18 00:01:54,695 00:01:57,823 We are still here and we are still struggling. We are still here and we are still struggling.
19 00:01:57,990 00:02:02,869 And we are united in the statement that it will never happen again. And we are united in the statement that it will never happen again.
20 00:02:07,207 00:02:10,627 Roy Cohn, when he was virtually just a teenager, Roy Cohn, when he was virtually just a teenager,
21 00:02:10,794 00:02:15,173 sent Julius and Ethel Rosenberg to the electric chair. sent Julius and Ethel Rosenberg to the electric chair.
22 00:02:17,259 00:02:21,471 You've had 30 years, 30 years since the Rosenbergs were executed. You've had 30 years, 30 years since the Rosenbergs were executed.
23 00:02:22,681 00:02:25,350 Have you spent one of those nights sleepless, Have you spent one of those nights sleepless,
24 00:02:25,517 00:02:27,811 for sending this couple to the chair? for sending this couple to the chair?
25 00:02:27,977 00:02:31,231 Of course not Barry. This couple was convicted by a jury Of course not Barry. This couple was convicted by a jury
26 00:02:31,398 00:02:36,361 and if ever the death penalty were appropriate, it was in that case. and if ever the death penalty were appropriate, it was in that case.
27 00:02:41,699 00:02:43,076 Is there a police officer? Is there a police officer?
28 00:02:47,997 00:02:50,416 What can I say? That I haven't been discreet? What can I say? That I haven't been discreet?
29 00:02:50,583 00:02:52,001 I never claimed to be discreet. I never claimed to be discreet.
30 00:02:52,168 00:02:53,795 Ernie get out. Ernie get out.
31 00:02:53,961 00:02:55,338 Ernie, c'mon! Ernie, c'mon!
32 00:02:56,839 00:02:59,467 I claim to be upfront and totally candid, I claim to be upfront and totally candid,
33 00:02:59,634 00:03:01,552 and I claim not to be a hypocrite. and I claim not to be a hypocrite.
34 00:03:01,719 00:03:04,430 We believe that the free world is gonna win the Cold War We believe that the free world is gonna win the Cold War
35 00:03:04,597 00:03:07,975 and win this fight by one thing: the truth. and win this fight by one thing: the truth.
36 00:03:08,142 00:03:10,811 I'm a guy who's taken tough positions, I'm a guy who's taken tough positions,
37 00:03:10,978 00:03:14,023 starting with the Rosenberg case, starting with the McCarthy period. starting with the Rosenberg case, starting with the McCarthy period.
38 00:03:14,190 00:03:17,777 I don't see the difference between Nazism and Hitler on the one hand I don't see the difference between Nazism and Hitler on the one hand
39 00:03:17,943 00:03:21,864 and communism on the other hand. and communism on the other hand.
40 00:03:22,031 00:03:25,785 What I do, I do on the basis of moral judgments as I make them, What I do, I do on the basis of moral judgments as I make them,
41 00:03:25,951 00:03:30,998 as only I must make them, according to my own conscience. as only I must make them, according to my own conscience.
42 00:03:31,165 00:03:35,377 I reserve the right to make judgments about myself and other people, I reserve the right to make judgments about myself and other people,
43 00:03:35,544 00:03:38,589 and have other people make them about me. and have other people make them about me.
44 00:03:38,756 00:03:42,384 If someone wants to be my detractor, that is that person's privilege. If someone wants to be my detractor, that is that person's privilege.
45 00:03:42,551 00:03:43,927 I just don't care. I just don't care.
46 00:03:44,094 00:03:46,180 And I'll show them what the national interest is, And I'll show them what the national interest is,
47 00:03:46,347 00:03:48,265 I'll hold up the army to ridicule. I'll hold up the army to ridicule.
48 00:03:48,432 00:03:50,726 -I said that? -According to a book I read. -I said that? -According to a book I read.
49 00:03:50,893 00:03:52,269 Read another book. Read another book.
50 00:03:54,438 00:03:56,440 I found out one thing in life: I found out one thing in life:
51 00:03:56,607 00:03:59,443 don't ever threaten unless you intend to follow through. don't ever threaten unless you intend to follow through.
52 00:04:12,873 00:04:14,791 Everything I do has to be true. Everything I do has to be true.
53 00:04:14,958 00:04:18,128 I will not say anything that I cannot repeat under oath. I will not say anything that I cannot repeat under oath.
54 00:04:34,936 00:04:38,732 In 1980, I went to Playboy Magazine In 1980, I went to Playboy Magazine
55 00:04:38,898 00:04:43,236 and I said I'd like to do an interview of Roy Cohn for the magazine. and I said I'd like to do an interview of Roy Cohn for the magazine.
56 00:04:43,403 00:04:44,779 Testing... Testing...
57 00:04:46,239 00:04:48,074 Roy Cohn, Peter Manso. Roy Cohn, Peter Manso.
58 00:04:48,241 00:04:50,827 Actually why don't we do this, why don't we just break here? Actually why don't we do this, why don't we just break here?
59 00:04:50,994 00:04:53,955 -Have we covered a lot of... -We're getting there. -Have we covered a lot of... -We're getting there.
60 00:04:54,122 00:05:00,211 I simply called Roy at his law firm, Saxe, Bacon, & Bolan in New York, I simply called Roy at his law firm, Saxe, Bacon, & Bolan in New York,
61 00:05:00,378 00:05:05,174 left a message, and five minutes later the phone rang and it was Roy. left a message, and five minutes later the phone rang and it was Roy.
62 00:05:05,341 00:05:12,306 'Sounds interesting, when do you want to get together to talk about it? ' 'Sounds interesting, when do you want to get together to talk about it? '
63 00:05:12,473 00:05:15,935 We started taping at his place in North Greenwich, We started taping at his place in North Greenwich,
64 00:05:16,102 00:05:17,895 an hour or so north of New York. an hour or so north of New York.
65 00:05:19,730 00:05:21,107 Go ahead. Go ahead.
66 00:05:21,274 00:05:23,859 So presumably your clients, the wealthy, social register types, So presumably your clients, the wealthy, social register types,
67 00:05:24,026 00:05:25,611 have come to you over the years have come to you over the years
68 00:05:25,778 00:05:28,406 because you have gained a reputation for winning. because you have gained a reputation for winning.
69 00:05:28,572 00:05:30,658 Does all of this go back to what you learned from McCarthy, Does all of this go back to what you learned from McCarthy,
70 00:05:30,825 00:05:33,744 the so-called 'Achilles heel' technique? the so-called 'Achilles heel' technique?
71 00:05:33,911 00:05:36,664 I wouldn't say it's what I learned from McCarthy. I wouldn't say it's what I learned from McCarthy.
72 00:05:36,831 00:05:40,000 I think it's what I started learning during the Rosenberg Trial, I think it's what I started learning during the Rosenberg Trial,
73 00:05:40,167 00:05:42,169 what I learned in the US district attorney's office, what I learned in the US district attorney's office,
74 00:05:42,336 00:05:45,297 when I made up my mind that law is an adversary profession. when I made up my mind that law is an adversary profession.
75 00:05:45,464 00:05:49,969 One side wins, one side loses. I don't like to lose, I hate to lose. One side wins, one side loses. I don't like to lose, I hate to lose.
76 00:05:50,135 00:05:51,845 So I made up my mind So I made up my mind
77 00:05:52,012 00:05:55,307 that I was going to everything I could, in the way of careful preparation... that I was going to everything I could, in the way of careful preparation...
78 00:05:55,474 00:05:58,143 In the way of tough fighting, to be a winner. In the way of tough fighting, to be a winner.
79 00:06:00,479 00:06:07,694 It became clear to me right away that my stereotyping of Roy was inadequate. It became clear to me right away that my stereotyping of Roy was inadequate.
80 00:06:07,861 00:06:10,030 To call him evil-it's true. To call him evil-it's true.
81 00:06:11,490 00:06:16,036 But, it doesn't explain a hundred other things about Roy Cohn. But, it doesn't explain a hundred other things about Roy Cohn.
82 00:06:16,203 00:06:18,997 He was bright, he was contentious, He was bright, he was contentious,
83 00:06:19,164 00:06:22,084 but I think what appealed to me most about Roy but I think what appealed to me most about Roy
84 00:06:22,250 00:06:25,212 is that he was a lawless mad man. is that he was a lawless mad man.
85 00:06:25,378 00:06:28,715 I would say I'm probably more of a maverick. I would say I'm probably more of a maverick.
86 00:06:28,882 00:06:31,384 I do have a crazy list of clients. I do have a crazy list of clients.
87 00:06:31,551 00:06:34,971 The usual reaction isn't 'Roy Cohn represents the Mob. ' The usual reaction isn't 'Roy Cohn represents the Mob. '
88 00:06:35,138 00:06:39,059 It's 'Roy Cohn and Studio 54. Roy Cohn and anti-communism. It's 'Roy Cohn and Studio 54. Roy Cohn and anti-communism.
89 00:06:39,225 00:06:40,644 Roy Cohn and the archdiocese. Roy Cohn and the archdiocese.
90 00:06:40,810 00:06:44,814 Roy Cohn, the friend of... The lawyer for Donald Trump. Roy Cohn, the friend of... The lawyer for Donald Trump.
91 00:06:44,981 00:06:48,735 Good friend of George Steinbrenner who owns the New York Yankees. Good friend of George Steinbrenner who owns the New York Yankees.
92 00:06:48,902 00:06:52,238 Roy Cohn, the friend of Congressmen, Senators, Judges. ' Roy Cohn, the friend of Congressmen, Senators, Judges. '
93 00:07:00,622 00:07:03,708 Someone had passed America's atomic bomb secrets to Russia. Someone had passed America's atomic bomb secrets to Russia.
94 00:07:03,875 00:07:06,294 This was an undisputed fact that the whole world knew. This was an undisputed fact that the whole world knew.
95 00:07:06,461 00:07:09,922 The government had laid the crime at the doorstep of two New Yorkers: The government had laid the crime at the doorstep of two New Yorkers:
96 00:07:10,089 00:07:11,758 Julius and Ethel Rosenberg. Julius and Ethel Rosenberg.
97 00:07:19,390 00:07:21,392 My parents both grew up during the Great Depression. My parents both grew up during the Great Depression.
98 00:07:24,020 00:07:25,771 The communists were the ones who were fighting The communists were the ones who were fighting
99 00:07:25,938 00:07:28,232 for the rights of tenants and of workers, for the rights of tenants and of workers,
100 00:07:28,399 00:07:31,110 and so they were naturally drawn to it. and so they were naturally drawn to it.
101 00:07:31,277 00:07:35,489 In World War II, given the wartime alliance with the Soviet Union, In World War II, given the wartime alliance with the Soviet Union,
102 00:07:35,656 00:07:40,828 Communism was allied with Americanism. Communism was allied with Americanism.
103 00:07:40,995 00:07:43,164 It became a natural thing It became a natural thing
104 00:07:43,330 00:07:47,668 to politically support the survival of the Soviet Union. to politically support the survival of the Soviet Union.
105 00:07:50,963 00:07:55,301 My father made a big deal at the trial that he liked the Soviet Union, My father made a big deal at the trial that he liked the Soviet Union,
106 00:07:55,467 00:07:58,846 because it had torn the guts out of the Hitler beast because it had torn the guts out of the Hitler beast
107 00:07:59,013 00:08:01,598 that killed 6 million of my fellow Jews. that killed 6 million of my fellow Jews.
108 00:08:04,560 00:08:06,812 When my children were young, When my children were young,
109 00:08:06,979 00:08:11,692 they learned that Judge Kauffman sentenced their grandparents to death. they learned that Judge Kauffman sentenced their grandparents to death.
110 00:08:11,859 00:08:16,488 David Greenglass, my mother's brother, who was a machinist at Los Alamos, David Greenglass, my mother's brother, who was a machinist at Los Alamos,
111 00:08:16,655 00:08:18,824 claimed that Julius and Ethel Rosenberg claimed that Julius and Ethel Rosenberg
112 00:08:18,991 00:08:21,326 recruited him to be a spy for the Soviet Union. recruited him to be a spy for the Soviet Union.
113 00:08:22,995 00:08:25,872 And that's where Roy Cohn enters the scene. And that's where Roy Cohn enters the scene.
114 00:08:26,039 00:08:28,792 He coached David Greenglass to develop his testimony, He coached David Greenglass to develop his testimony,
115 00:08:28,959 00:08:31,211 examined David Greenglass at the trial. examined David Greenglass at the trial.
116 00:08:33,255 00:08:37,717 The two of them together were the reason my parents were convicted The two of them together were the reason my parents were convicted
117 00:08:37,884 00:08:39,886 and the reason they were executed. and the reason they were executed.
118 00:08:52,482 00:08:54,609 Think back when you were a kid. Think back when you were a kid.
119 00:08:55,860 00:08:57,779 -Were you aware of Roy Cohn? -No. -Were you aware of Roy Cohn? -No.
120 00:08:57,946 00:09:02,158 In 1955, I read The Judgment of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg by John Wexley. In 1955, I read The Judgment of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg by John Wexley.
121 00:09:02,325 00:09:04,702 And there was the reference to Roy Cohn, And there was the reference to Roy Cohn,
122 00:09:04,869 00:09:07,205 and I'd already heard about him because of McCarthy. and I'd already heard about him because of McCarthy.
123 00:09:07,372 00:09:09,791 -And how old were you? -1955: I was twelve. -And how old were you? -1955: I was twelve.
124 00:09:11,918 00:09:13,544 That's quite a book to read when you're twelve. That's quite a book to read when you're twelve.
125 00:09:13,711 00:09:17,006 I didn't understand it much. But the name Roy Cohn stuck in my mind I didn't understand it much. But the name Roy Cohn stuck in my mind
126 00:09:17,173 00:09:20,176 'cause I'd seen the stuff on TV about McCarthy. 'cause I'd seen the stuff on TV about McCarthy.
127 00:09:20,343 00:09:24,680 I knew that McCarthy was a bad man, not that I knew any of the details. I knew that McCarthy was a bad man, not that I knew any of the details.
128 00:09:27,266 00:09:29,644 I had graduated from college and law school, I had graduated from college and law school,
129 00:09:29,811 00:09:32,772 and gotten both degrees in three years and four months. and gotten both degrees in three years and four months.
130 00:09:34,273 00:09:39,946 I went to the US attorney's office... I was a kid. I was not yet twenty. I went to the US attorney's office... I was a kid. I was not yet twenty.
131 00:09:40,112 00:09:43,532 I prosecuted internal security cases, counterfeiting, narcotics, I prosecuted internal security cases, counterfeiting, narcotics,
132 00:09:43,699 00:09:45,993 and I had a minor name because of that. and I had a minor name because of that.
133 00:09:47,244 00:09:49,205 I examined David Greenglass, I examined David Greenglass,
134 00:09:49,371 00:09:54,710 I was then a big fat 23 years old, and I sort of put the case together. I was then a big fat 23 years old, and I sort of put the case together.
135 00:09:57,129 00:10:00,174 I think that the death sentence, imposed by Judge Irving R. Kauffman I think that the death sentence, imposed by Judge Irving R. Kauffman
136 00:10:00,341 00:10:03,552 in the Atom Spy Trial, had a very strong deterrent effect. in the Atom Spy Trial, had a very strong deterrent effect.
137 00:10:03,719 00:10:07,765 It's been a very good year on the anticommunist front in this country. It's been a very good year on the anticommunist front in this country.
138 00:10:09,808 00:10:12,436 He was known as the guy who got the conviction He was known as the guy who got the conviction
139 00:10:12,603 00:10:14,563 and execution of the Rosenbergs, and execution of the Rosenbergs,
140 00:10:14,730 00:10:21,904 and I think he saw this as a stepping stone to glory and it worked. and I think he saw this as a stepping stone to glory and it worked.
141 00:10:22,070 00:10:25,073 1953, Washington, D. C. 1953, Washington, D. C.
142 00:10:25,240 00:10:28,994 I became Chief Counsel for the Senate Investigating Committee, I became Chief Counsel for the Senate Investigating Committee,
143 00:10:29,161 00:10:31,455 when Senator McCarthy became chairman. when Senator McCarthy became chairman.
144 00:10:34,374 00:10:38,336 Government agencies had covered up security risks Government agencies had covered up security risks
145 00:10:38,503 00:10:41,965 and have left people in sensitive positions. and have left people in sensitive positions.
146 00:10:42,132 00:10:45,135 Our job is to show cover ups. Our job is to show cover ups.
147 00:10:45,302 00:10:47,137 He had to always be the tough guy in the room. He had to always be the tough guy in the room.
148 00:10:47,304 00:10:49,931 He had to be the one who was the most macho. He had to be the one who was the most macho.
149 00:10:50,098 00:10:53,184 Hw to do it in the 50s: you went after communists. Hw to do it in the 50s: you went after communists.
150 00:10:53,351 00:10:56,438 I don't think you understood. The question was, do you know him? I don't think you understood. The question was, do you know him?
151 00:10:56,605 00:11:00,608 Can you look at the picture and tell us whether you know him? Can you look at the picture and tell us whether you know him?
152 00:11:00,775 00:11:03,236 Can you answer the simple question of whether he's a communist... Can you answer the simple question of whether he's a communist...
153 00:11:03,403 00:11:09,576 Your statements about him have made it difficult for me... Your statements about him have made it difficult for me...
154 00:11:09,742 00:11:13,955 I want to put on the record the fact that I want... I want to put on the record the fact that I want...
155 00:11:18,251 00:11:20,420 McCarthy didn't know anything about communists, really. McCarthy didn't know anything about communists, really.
156 00:11:20,587 00:11:23,548 But Roy found, by being on his shoulder, But Roy found, by being on his shoulder,
157 00:11:23,715 00:11:26,634 by pushing, pushing him, he was a mover and shaker. by pushing, pushing him, he was a mover and shaker.
158 00:11:26,801 00:11:30,304 He didn't want to be in McCarthy's seat, be in the center, He didn't want to be in McCarthy's seat, be in the center,
159 00:11:30,471 00:11:33,474 but he wanted to be the guy behind the powerbrokers. but he wanted to be the guy behind the powerbrokers.
160 00:11:33,641 00:11:37,478 The last way to be politically ambitious as a Jewish, New York Democrat, The last way to be politically ambitious as a Jewish, New York Democrat,
161 00:11:37,645 00:11:41,023 which I was and am, is by becoming counsel for Senator McCarthy, which I was and am, is by becoming counsel for Senator McCarthy,
162 00:11:41,190 00:11:44,902 so I was hardly down there for any political ambition. so I was hardly down there for any political ambition.
163 00:11:45,987 00:11:48,656 I was down there to do more in this type of work, I was down there to do more in this type of work,
164 00:11:48,823 00:11:51,617 in which I believed then and which I believe now. in which I believed then and which I believe now.
165 00:11:53,953 00:11:59,834 Roy was a hero to many who had seen Communism up close, Roy was a hero to many who had seen Communism up close,
166 00:12:00,000 00:12:02,628 as was the case of myself. as was the case of myself.
167 00:12:02,795 00:12:06,590 For me, Communism was far worse than any, anything I'd ever seen. For me, Communism was far worse than any, anything I'd ever seen.
168 00:12:06,757 00:12:08,968 I could imagine the worst thing you could be was a Communist, I could imagine the worst thing you could be was a Communist,
169 00:12:09,134 00:12:12,554 because you were a danger to our way of life, to our way of thinking. because you were a danger to our way of life, to our way of thinking.
170 00:12:12,721 00:12:15,975 And Roy was brought up in that climate. And Roy was brought up in that climate.
171 00:12:17,518 00:12:21,563 I imagine this guy coming of age during World War II. I imagine this guy coming of age during World War II.
172 00:12:21,730 00:12:25,943 And the terror of what would happen when we ceased And the terror of what would happen when we ceased
173 00:12:26,110 00:12:29,112 to be the only country in the world that had nuclear weapons. to be the only country in the world that had nuclear weapons.
174 00:12:29,279 00:12:32,241 The Communist Party is not a political party. The Communist Party is not a political party.
175 00:12:32,407 00:12:34,493 It's a criminal conspiracy. It's a criminal conspiracy.
176 00:12:34,660 00:12:38,205 Its object is the overthrow of the government of the United States Its object is the overthrow of the government of the United States
177 00:12:38,372 00:12:39,790 by force and violence. by force and violence.
178 00:12:39,957 00:12:41,583 As soon as the right time arrives. As soon as the right time arrives.
179 00:12:41,750 00:12:43,502 They're traitors to America. They're traitors to America.
180 00:12:43,669 00:12:45,712 Why don't we do something about it? Why don't we do something about it?
181 00:12:45,879 00:12:48,382 They are enemies, they are not Americans... They are enemies, they are not Americans...
182 00:12:51,301 00:12:54,262 They're homosexuals, they're communists! They're homosexuals, they're communists!
183 00:12:54,429 00:12:56,014 They're communists! They're communists!
184 00:12:56,181 00:13:01,978 The two groups that were initially tagged with the 'red taint' The two groups that were initially tagged with the 'red taint'
185 00:13:02,145 00:13:07,776 more than any other groups in this country were homosexuals and Jews. more than any other groups in this country were homosexuals and Jews.
186 00:13:09,569 00:13:14,783 There's another group about which I hesitate to talk, There's another group about which I hesitate to talk,
187 00:13:14,949 00:13:16,826 but I think the picture isn't complete unless we do. but I think the picture isn't complete unless we do.
188 00:13:18,495 00:13:21,164 Some of them have that unusual affliction Some of them have that unusual affliction
189 00:13:21,331 00:13:25,501 because of no fault of their own, most because they're morally weak. because of no fault of their own, most because they're morally weak.
190 00:13:28,755 00:13:32,216 The pervert is easy prey to the blackmailer. The pervert is easy prey to the blackmailer.
191 00:13:32,383 00:13:36,346 It follows that if blackmailers can exhort money from these individuals, It follows that if blackmailers can exhort money from these individuals,
192 00:13:36,512 00:13:39,849 espionage agents can use the same type of pressure. espionage agents can use the same type of pressure.
193 00:13:41,058 00:13:43,144 They're dangerous to this country. They're dangerous to this country.
194 00:13:48,983 00:13:52,320 We know that communists writing about the United States We know that communists writing about the United States
195 00:13:52,486 00:13:54,322 are not giving the true picture. are not giving the true picture.
196 00:13:55,990 00:13:59,577 And that is why we don't believe that Amerika Haus, And that is why we don't believe that Amerika Haus,
197 00:13:59,744 00:14:03,205 which is supposed to give a true picture of life in the United States, which is supposed to give a true picture of life in the United States,
198 00:14:03,372 00:14:06,167 should contain books written by communists, should contain books written by communists,
199 00:14:06,333 00:14:09,795 who are dedicated to wiping the United States off the face of the Earth who are dedicated to wiping the United States off the face of the Earth
200 00:14:09,962 00:14:12,715 and substituting the freedom we have in America and substituting the freedom we have in America
201 00:14:12,882 00:14:16,844 for the spiritual and mental enslavement you have in the Soviet Union. for the spiritual and mental enslavement you have in the Soviet Union.
202 00:14:18,095 00:14:21,765 The McCarthy Committee was now charging that State Libraries overseas The McCarthy Committee was now charging that State Libraries overseas
203 00:14:21,932 00:14:24,059 contain subversive volumes. contain subversive volumes.
204 00:14:24,226 00:14:26,103 Cohn, and his friend G. David Schine, Cohn, and his friend G. David Schine,
205 00:14:26,270 00:14:29,481 the young Harvard graduate and heir to the Schine Hotel fortune, the young Harvard graduate and heir to the Schine Hotel fortune,
206 00:14:29,648 00:14:32,401 were dispatched on a tour of our libraries overseas. were dispatched on a tour of our libraries overseas.
207 00:14:37,614 00:14:43,662 We suddenly became the enemy of McCarthy and his cohorts. We suddenly became the enemy of McCarthy and his cohorts.
208 00:14:44,913 00:14:48,458 They said, 'Do you have The Maltese Falcon?' They said, 'Do you have The Maltese Falcon?'
209 00:14:48,625 00:14:51,545 I said, 'Yes, they're right over here in the library' I said, 'Yes, they're right over here in the library'
210 00:14:51,712 00:14:53,338 and Cohn turned and says, and Cohn turned and says,
211 00:14:53,505 00:14:57,092 'Nothing but Communist books here in the library.' 'Nothing but Communist books here in the library.'
212 00:14:58,844 00:15:03,223 They didn't really succeed very much on this particular junket. They didn't really succeed very much on this particular junket.
213 00:15:04,266 00:15:05,892 But they became notorious. But they became notorious.
214 00:15:14,025 00:15:15,485 They were two kids, They were two kids,
215 00:15:15,652 00:15:20,365 that were encouraged by McCarthy and others to go make this global trip. that were encouraged by McCarthy and others to go make this global trip.
216 00:15:22,033 00:15:23,493 The people who encouraged them The people who encouraged them
217 00:15:23,660 00:15:25,995 were adults who didn't realize how bad it was gonna look. were adults who didn't realize how bad it was gonna look.
218 00:15:27,330 00:15:31,167 There are stories that I had heard of them sort of chasing each other There are stories that I had heard of them sort of chasing each other
219 00:15:31,334 00:15:34,295 through the Ritz in Paris in their towels. through the Ritz in Paris in their towels.
220 00:15:39,425 00:15:44,472 After Cohn and Schine came back from Europe, Schine got drafted. After Cohn and Schine came back from Europe, Schine got drafted.
221 00:15:44,639 00:15:47,350 He was just a G.I., just a buck private. He was just a G.I., just a buck private.
222 00:15:49,602 00:15:52,605 Roy used his position with McCarthy Roy used his position with McCarthy
223 00:15:52,772 00:15:56,609 and tried to get the army to give Schine favorite treatment. and tried to get the army to give Schine favorite treatment.
224 00:15:58,194 00:16:03,741 1954 Army-McCarthy Hearings 1954 Army-McCarthy Hearings
225 00:16:03,908 00:16:05,743 Senator McCarthy said: Senator McCarthy said:
226 00:16:05,910 00:16:10,247 'Roy thinks that Dave ought to be a general 'Roy thinks that Dave ought to be a general
227 00:16:11,374 00:16:15,169 and operate from a penthouse of Waldorf-Astoria,' and operate from a penthouse of Waldorf-Astoria,'
228 00:16:15,336 00:16:16,754 or words to that effect. or words to that effect.
229 00:16:18,214 00:16:21,091 I asked him, 'what would happen if Schine got overseas duty? ' I asked him, 'what would happen if Schine got overseas duty? '
230 00:16:21,258 00:16:25,804 He responded with vigor and force: 'we'll wreck the army!' He responded with vigor and force: 'we'll wreck the army!'
231 00:16:25,971 00:16:28,724 I never knew what hung on Schine's wall, sir. I never knew what hung on Schine's wall, sir.
232 00:16:28,891 00:16:32,186 You knew what hung on Schine's wall when that was handed to you! You knew what hung on Schine's wall when that was handed to you!
233 00:16:32,353 00:16:34,063 Did you think this came from a pixie? Did you think this came from a pixie?
234 00:16:37,441 00:16:40,110 Counsel, for my benefit, define, Counsel, for my benefit, define,
235 00:16:40,277 00:16:42,905 and I think he might be an expert on that what a pixie is. and I think he might be an expert on that what a pixie is.
236 00:16:43,071 00:16:50,037 Yes. I should say Mr. Senator that a pixie is a close relative of a fairy. Yes. I should say Mr. Senator that a pixie is a close relative of a fairy.
237 00:16:55,167 00:16:59,087 Roy Cohn risked being exposed on national television Roy Cohn risked being exposed on national television
238 00:16:59,254 00:17:02,215 as a pixie, the close relationship to a fairy as a pixie, the close relationship to a fairy
239 00:17:02,382 00:17:05,677 He went after the U. S. armed forces He went after the U. S. armed forces
240 00:17:05,844 00:17:08,388 because he wanted his boyfriend back. because he wanted his boyfriend back.
241 00:17:08,555 00:17:12,434 And he dragged poor, drunk, stupid McCarthy along with him And he dragged poor, drunk, stupid McCarthy along with him
242 00:17:13,518 00:17:16,521 into this debacle for the two of them. into this debacle for the two of them.
243 00:17:20,400 00:17:24,321 Final vote condemns M'Carthy for abusing Sente and Committee. Final vote condemns M'Carthy for abusing Sente and Committee.
244 00:17:27,615 00:17:30,827 Cohn resigns M'Carthy post. Cohn resigns M'Carthy post.
245 00:17:30,994 00:17:33,329 Everybody thought he was finished after that. Everybody thought he was finished after that.
246 00:17:34,372 00:17:37,625 This little snot-nosed, 26-year-old who was grilling people. This little snot-nosed, 26-year-old who was grilling people.
247 00:17:37,792 00:17:39,669 They thought he was just going to be some has-been They thought he was just going to be some has-been
248 00:17:39,836 00:17:41,421 and everybody was going to dance on his grave. and everybody was going to dance on his grave.
249 00:17:41,588 00:17:43,673 And you know, from the ashes he rose. And you know, from the ashes he rose.
250 00:17:52,515 00:17:56,394 By the time you returned to New York after leaving McCarthy in 54', By the time you returned to New York after leaving McCarthy in 54',
251 00:17:56,561 00:17:58,438 there was quite a lucrative law practice waiting. there was quite a lucrative law practice waiting.
252 00:17:59,814 00:18:04,151 I suppose through my derivative friendship with my father's friends, I suppose through my derivative friendship with my father's friends,
253 00:18:04,318 00:18:07,905 who have known him in the course of his quarter of a century on the bench, who have known him in the course of his quarter of a century on the bench,
254 00:18:08,072 00:18:12,034 that brought me together with the top Democratic leadership in New York. that brought me together with the top Democratic leadership in New York.
255 00:18:13,828 00:18:16,372 And from there on I steadily worked my way up. And from there on I steadily worked my way up.
256 00:18:26,715 00:18:28,425 There's always the one event, that one party, There's always the one event, that one party,
257 00:18:28,592 00:18:31,887 where some people want to be and they want to be seen there. where some people want to be and they want to be seen there.
258 00:18:32,054 00:18:35,224 The limousines came to the back door of Studio 54 tonight. The limousines came to the back door of Studio 54 tonight.
259 00:18:35,391 00:18:38,185 Roy was celebrating his birthday at a black tie affair Roy was celebrating his birthday at a black tie affair
260 00:18:38,352 00:18:42,064 for over 200 of his close friends, thrown by close friend Steve Rubell. for over 200 of his close friends, thrown by close friend Steve Rubell.
261 00:18:42,231 00:18:44,525 Some of Cohn's friends included former Mayor Abe Beame, Some of Cohn's friends included former Mayor Abe Beame,
262 00:18:44,692 00:18:46,235 Deputy Mayor Herman Badillo, Deputy Mayor Herman Badillo,
263 00:18:46,402 00:18:48,821 and Brooklyn democratic leader Meade Esposito. and Brooklyn democratic leader Meade Esposito.
264 00:18:48,987 00:18:50,989 I was here for his last year's birthday party, I was here for his last year's birthday party,
265 00:18:51,156 00:18:53,534 and it was really fun so I had to come again. and it was really fun so I had to come again.
266 00:18:53,700 00:18:56,578 Why does Joey Adams come to say happy birthday to Roy Cohn? Why does Joey Adams come to say happy birthday to Roy Cohn?
267 00:18:56,745 00:19:00,290 Roy is my buddy for a long time and I don't need him. Roy is my buddy for a long time and I don't need him.
268 00:19:00,457 00:19:03,043 I'm not getting a divorce, I'm not a member of the mafia, I'm not getting a divorce, I'm not a member of the mafia,
269 00:19:03,210 00:19:07,047 I don't sniff coke, I don't need him and yet he's my friend. I don't sniff coke, I don't need him and yet he's my friend.
270 00:19:07,214 00:19:10,258 They know I'll be there, and I always know that they'll be there They know I'll be there, and I always know that they'll be there
271 00:19:10,425 00:19:15,138 so the people here tonight aren't a question of who did what for whom, so the people here tonight aren't a question of who did what for whom,
272 00:19:15,305 00:19:19,142 it's a question of who's meant what to whom over a long period of time. it's a question of who's meant what to whom over a long period of time.
273 00:19:20,519 00:19:22,103 That's him in his Greenwich house That's him in his Greenwich house
274 00:19:23,188 00:19:25,732 Being his usual notorious, pernicious self. Being his usual notorious, pernicious self.
275 00:19:25,899 00:19:27,567 Yes indeed. Yes indeed.
276 00:19:27,734 00:19:32,864 A lot of people have family members they don't want to talk about. A lot of people have family members they don't want to talk about.
277 00:19:33,031 00:19:36,701 -But he was a personification of evil. -Absolutely. -But he was a personification of evil. -Absolutely.
278 00:19:37,994 00:19:40,413 -Every family has its Roy Cohn. -I hope not. -Every family has its Roy Cohn. -I hope not.
279 00:19:40,580 00:19:43,041 The world would be a terrible place if that happened. The world would be a terrible place if that happened.
280 00:19:44,626 00:19:47,170 I grew up in a family where our family activity I grew up in a family where our family activity
281 00:19:47,337 00:19:49,047 was to march against the Vietnam War. was to march against the Vietnam War.
282 00:19:49,214 00:19:51,299 So I was very conscious of the fact that my parents, So I was very conscious of the fact that my parents,
283 00:19:51,466 00:19:55,094 were very upset about the Rosenbergs, about McCarthy, were very upset about the Rosenbergs, about McCarthy,
284 00:19:55,261 00:19:58,639 all these things that Roy was intricately involved in. all these things that Roy was intricately involved in.
285 00:19:59,932 00:20:02,310 But I was a budding journalist and I paid attention to him. But I was a budding journalist and I paid attention to him.
286 00:20:07,857 00:20:09,442 Roy was the outer borough kid, Roy was the outer borough kid,
287 00:20:09,609 00:20:11,903 for an only child who grew up in the Bronx. for an only child who grew up in the Bronx.
288 00:20:12,945 00:20:17,116 Roy's mother was Dora Marcus, who married Al Cohn who became a judge. Roy's mother was Dora Marcus, who married Al Cohn who became a judge.
289 00:20:18,242 00:20:20,911 His dad was a very powerful Democrat in the Bronx His dad was a very powerful Democrat in the Bronx
290 00:20:21,078 00:20:23,372 who mingled with Democrats all the time. who mingled with Democrats all the time.
291 00:20:23,539 00:20:27,835 And yet Roy somehow morphed into a Republican, And yet Roy somehow morphed into a Republican,
292 00:20:28,002 00:20:29,879 somehow morphed into arch-conservative. somehow morphed into arch-conservative.
293 00:20:31,589 00:20:34,842 I think Roy grew up with this notion he had to do better than his father. I think Roy grew up with this notion he had to do better than his father.
294 00:20:35,009 00:20:38,762 He had to be more important, more impressive, more in the news. He had to be more important, more impressive, more in the news.
295 00:20:40,931 00:20:44,518 And then he had to live with the specter of his Uncle Bernie, And then he had to live with the specter of his Uncle Bernie,
296 00:20:44,685 00:20:47,771 who was involved in a savings and loan problem, who was involved in a savings and loan problem,
297 00:20:47,938 00:20:49,523 going to Sing Sing. going to Sing Sing.
298 00:20:49,690 00:20:53,444 He always talked about going to see Uncle Bernie in Sing Sing. He always talked about going to see Uncle Bernie in Sing Sing.
299 00:20:53,610 00:20:56,405 And that was a scarring, scary memory for him. And that was a scarring, scary memory for him.
300 00:20:57,781 00:21:01,743 I can't help thinking that he then sent my grandparents to Sing Sing. I can't help thinking that he then sent my grandparents to Sing Sing.
301 00:21:01,910 00:21:06,206 I'm sitting here, talking to you about my cousin I'm sitting here, talking to you about my cousin
302 00:21:06,373 00:21:07,749 who sent your grandparents to Sing Sing who sent your grandparents to Sing Sing
303 00:21:07,916 00:21:12,921 after watching my grandfather go to Sing Sing... and be ruined. after watching my grandfather go to Sing Sing... and be ruined.
304 00:21:13,088 00:21:16,091 Roy's lesson was... That's never going to happen to me. Roy's lesson was... That's never going to happen to me.
305 00:21:16,258 00:21:18,260 I'm never going to be the victim.' I'm never going to be the victim.'
306 00:21:20,637 00:21:23,140 AIDS Quilt Memorial AIDS Quilt Memorial
307 00:21:25,058 00:21:29,104 Do you remember when we went to DC and went to see the AIDs quilt? Do you remember when we went to DC and went to see the AIDs quilt?
308 00:21:29,271 00:21:33,942 Yes. We walk in from a particular location, Yes. We walk in from a particular location,
309 00:21:34,109 00:21:38,571 and right in front of us, the first quilt we see is Roy Cohn. and right in front of us, the first quilt we see is Roy Cohn.
310 00:21:43,243 00:21:45,078 -It was crazy. -It really was. -It was crazy. -It really was.
311 00:21:45,245 00:21:49,707 Thousands of panels and probably, you know, I mean, Thousands of panels and probably, you know, I mean,
312 00:21:49,874 00:21:52,669 any number of ways we could have come on to the Mall. any number of ways we could have come on to the Mall.
313 00:21:52,836 00:21:56,714 -Absolutely. -We couldn't believe it. -Absolutely. -We couldn't believe it.
314 00:21:56,881 00:22:00,885 And what's interesting about that is, if we had come some ways else, And what's interesting about that is, if we had come some ways else,
315 00:22:01,052 00:22:03,096 we might not have even known he had a panel. we might not have even known he had a panel.
316 00:22:05,598 00:22:07,433 It was like a 'holy shit' moment. It was like a 'holy shit' moment.
317 00:22:09,435 00:22:14,732 It's almost like God wanted us to find Roy Cohn's panel It's almost like God wanted us to find Roy Cohn's panel
318 00:22:14,899 00:22:19,195 to remind us that we were still in the middle of this unbelievable battle. to remind us that we were still in the middle of this unbelievable battle.
319 00:22:30,831 00:22:33,918 I see, the universe, Joe, I see, the universe, Joe,
320 00:22:35,503 00:22:38,506 as a kind of sandstorm in outer space, as a kind of sandstorm in outer space,
321 00:22:38,672 00:22:41,050 with winds of mega hurricane velocity. with winds of mega hurricane velocity.
322 00:22:42,718 00:22:47,097 But instead of grains of sand, it's shards and splinters of glass. But instead of grains of sand, it's shards and splinters of glass.
323 00:22:48,515 00:22:52,186 I think that the character of Roy Cohn jumped out at me I think that the character of Roy Cohn jumped out at me
324 00:22:52,353 00:22:58,150 because he was not only Jewish, like me, but also gay like me. because he was not only Jewish, like me, but also gay like me.
325 00:22:59,360 00:23:03,363 He also seemed to be one of the worst human beings that had ever lived. He also seemed to be one of the worst human beings that had ever lived.
326 00:23:03,530 00:23:08,410 You think I'm the only lawyer in history ever missed a court date? You think I'm the only lawyer in history ever missed a court date?
327 00:23:09,912 00:23:13,874 Don't make such a big fucking hold, you hag! Don't make such a big fucking hold, you hag!
328 00:23:14,041 00:23:16,460 Most people, when they think of Roy Cohn, Most people, when they think of Roy Cohn,
329 00:23:16,627 00:23:19,588 think of the character in the play. think of the character in the play.
330 00:23:19,755 00:23:23,717 And it's only now that people really are more aware And it's only now that people really are more aware
331 00:23:23,884 00:23:26,636 of the real person, Roy Cohn. of the real person, Roy Cohn.
332 00:23:26,803 00:23:30,390 I think Mr. Vidal has lapsed into an uncharacteristic modesty I think Mr. Vidal has lapsed into an uncharacteristic modesty
333 00:23:30,557 00:23:33,143 and I don't think he should; he's very articulate. and I don't think he should; he's very articulate.
334 00:23:33,310 00:23:38,815 On talk shows, he's nerdy, creepy, but very sort of lawyerly, polite. On talk shows, he's nerdy, creepy, but very sort of lawyerly, polite.
335 00:23:38,982 00:23:40,358 Everyone is Mr. and Mrs. Everyone is Mr. and Mrs.
336 00:23:41,276 00:23:44,821 But in private, I think he was very different. But in private, I think he was very different.
337 00:23:51,244 00:23:56,833 I first met Roy as everybody did in those days in El Morocco. In '56. I first met Roy as everybody did in those days in El Morocco. In '56.
338 00:23:58,585 00:24:00,628 And he of course was famous by then. And he of course was famous by then.
339 00:24:01,963 00:24:06,968 El Morocco was the chicest and most exclusive nightclub of the time. El Morocco was the chicest and most exclusive nightclub of the time.
340 00:24:07,135 00:24:11,472 It was the kind of place where only very high society went, It was the kind of place where only very high society went,
341 00:24:11,639 00:24:14,600 plus some loose characters plus some loose characters
342 00:24:14,767 00:24:20,022 who were welcome because it gave sort of some spice to the place. who were welcome because it gave sort of some spice to the place.
343 00:24:20,189 00:24:22,650 And that's where Roy made all his contacts. And that's where Roy made all his contacts.
344 00:24:23,734 00:24:27,363 He would come in with those hooded lids, looking so ominous. He would come in with those hooded lids, looking so ominous.
345 00:24:27,530 00:24:31,534 He was like Dracula coming out of his box at midnight. He was like Dracula coming out of his box at midnight.
346 00:24:34,453 00:24:37,290 What came out of the McCarthy period, even its disasters, What came out of the McCarthy period, even its disasters,
347 00:24:37,456 00:24:40,793 was the feeling that I was different from most other lawyers. was the feeling that I was different from most other lawyers.
348 00:24:40,960 00:24:44,088 People didn't perceive me as a typical bill-by-the-hour, People didn't perceive me as a typical bill-by-the-hour,
349 00:24:44,255 00:24:48,342 do-nothing shyster, but as someone who could be trusted. do-nothing shyster, but as someone who could be trusted.
350 00:24:48,509 00:24:51,470 When people call Roy Cohn to solicit his services, When people call Roy Cohn to solicit his services,
351 00:24:51,637 00:24:53,222 what are they buying? what are they buying?
352 00:24:53,389 00:24:56,016 I think a principal thing they're buying is scare value. I think a principal thing they're buying is scare value.
353 00:24:56,183 00:25:00,896 It was not in his briefcase, they do not allege it was in his briefcase. It was not in his briefcase, they do not allege it was in his briefcase.
354 00:25:01,063 00:25:03,857 I've read the complaint and I was in court and you weren't. I've read the complaint and I was in court and you weren't.
355 00:25:04,024 00:25:07,653 People hired Roy because Roy was without conscience, People hired Roy because Roy was without conscience,
356 00:25:07,820 00:25:11,949 and Roy would get them a victory because he knew no rules. and Roy would get them a victory because he knew no rules.
357 00:25:12,116 00:25:13,951 He would do whatever he needed to win. He would do whatever he needed to win.
358 00:25:17,412 00:25:21,333 It has been mentioned in the media that you have represented It has been mentioned in the media that you have represented
359 00:25:21,500 00:25:24,419 or continue to represent the world's richest men. or continue to represent the world's richest men.
360 00:25:24,586 00:25:27,965 Okay. There's a prominent New York real estate tycoon, Okay. There's a prominent New York real estate tycoon,
361 00:25:28,131 00:25:31,051 very young man who's made it. very young man who's made it.
362 00:25:31,218 00:25:35,013 He started off with a few million dollars that his father had made. He started off with a few million dollars that his father had made.
363 00:25:35,180 00:25:37,057 Maybe 10 million, 20 million. Maybe 10 million, 20 million.
364 00:25:37,224 00:25:42,145 -Can we identify him? -Donald Trump. -Can we identify him? -Donald Trump.
365 00:25:44,022 00:25:47,150 Is it fair to say that he's the most powerful real estate guy in New York? Is it fair to say that he's the most powerful real estate guy in New York?
366 00:25:47,317 00:25:48,693 I think it is. I think it is.
367 00:25:50,195 00:25:54,032 His currency was money, but he was a boy from Queens. His currency was money, but he was a boy from Queens.
368 00:25:54,199 00:25:56,368 And he was a sheltered boy from Queens. And he was a sheltered boy from Queens.
369 00:25:56,534 00:25:58,411 He didn't have any access to the big city, He didn't have any access to the big city,
370 00:25:58,578 00:26:01,456 so at first, Roy brought him into New York. so at first, Roy brought him into New York.
371 00:26:01,623 00:26:04,542 I met him at a supper club, which I rarely go to. I met him at a supper club, which I rarely go to.
372 00:26:04,709 00:26:07,212 I have so much work to do during the day, I have so much work to do during the day,
373 00:26:07,378 00:26:10,173 and I guess the same can be said of Donald. and I guess the same can be said of Donald.
374 00:26:10,340 00:26:11,758 He hates anything social, He hates anything social,
375 00:26:11,925 00:26:14,427 and he really doesn't like anything political very much either. and he really doesn't like anything political very much either.
376 00:26:15,720 00:26:19,724 One night at Le Club, we were seated at tables next to each other. One night at Le Club, we were seated at tables next to each other.
377 00:26:19,891 00:26:23,478 He said, 'I've spent two days with these establishment law firms He said, 'I've spent two days with these establishment law firms
378 00:26:23,644 00:26:26,105 about a case we have.' It was a civil rights case. about a case we have.' It was a civil rights case.
379 00:26:26,272 00:26:30,568 'I've followed your career and you seem a little bit crazy like I am, 'I've followed your career and you seem a little bit crazy like I am,
380 00:26:30,735 00:26:33,946 and you stand up to the establishment. Can I come see ya?' and you stand up to the establishment. Can I come see ya?'
381 00:26:34,989 00:26:37,450 This was a lawsuit against numerous landlords in New York This was a lawsuit against numerous landlords in New York
382 00:26:37,617 00:26:40,453 and I didn't like it because it wasn't true. and I didn't like it because it wasn't true.
383 00:26:40,620 00:26:42,580 We'd never discriminate, we don't believe in it. We'd never discriminate, we don't believe in it.
384 00:26:42,747 00:26:47,293 I thought I should fight and other landlords didn't. I thought I should fight and other landlords didn't.
385 00:26:48,753 00:26:51,964 Trump was delighted by Roy's attorney's response Trump was delighted by Roy's attorney's response
386 00:26:52,131 00:26:54,508 to this suit against the two Trumps. to this suit against the two Trumps.
387 00:26:54,675 00:26:57,720 And that was to countersue the U.S. Justice department. And that was to countersue the U.S. Justice department.
388 00:26:57,887 00:27:01,515 Roy called them Nazis. Roy called them the Ku Klux Klan. Roy called them Nazis. Roy called them the Ku Klux Klan.
389 00:27:02,600 00:27:06,896 But the whole point was to resist. To throw it back at 'em. But the whole point was to resist. To throw it back at 'em.
390 00:27:07,062 00:27:10,190 And Trump fell in love with that: never admit that you're wrong. And Trump fell in love with that: never admit that you're wrong.
391 00:27:10,357 00:27:12,526 And, the suit was settled. And, the suit was settled.
392 00:27:12,693 00:27:15,738 You serve a complaint, start an action, and then there's a settlement. You serve a complaint, start an action, and then there's a settlement.
393 00:27:15,904 00:27:22,202 Roy settled 65-75% of all his cases out of court. Roy settled 65-75% of all his cases out of court.
394 00:27:24,079 00:27:26,248 He used his influence with magazines, He used his influence with magazines,
395 00:27:26,415 00:27:31,670 newspapers and individual journalists to get people to settle lawsuits. newspapers and individual journalists to get people to settle lawsuits.
396 00:27:31,837 00:27:33,213 The fear of publicity The fear of publicity
397 00:27:33,380 00:27:36,883 can be a very important factor in inducing a settlement. can be a very important factor in inducing a settlement.
398 00:27:37,050 00:27:40,137 And we'd all be crazy if we didn't acknowledge that as a fact. And we'd all be crazy if we didn't acknowledge that as a fact.
399 00:27:41,388 00:27:45,142 Roy grew to understand he could use me Roy grew to understand he could use me
400 00:27:45,308 00:27:47,185 when I joined the New York Post. when I joined the New York Post.
401 00:27:49,020 00:27:54,442 There were stories he was doing, and it would've served him There were stories he was doing, and it would've served him
402 00:27:54,609 00:27:57,779 if I would take care of the people he didn't like. if I would take care of the people he didn't like.
403 00:27:57,946 00:28:00,865 -How did he pull that off? -By asking me. -How did he pull that off? -By asking me.
404 00:28:02,450 00:28:07,872 And I did it, because he was my friend. So it's loyalty. And I did it, because he was my friend. So it's loyalty.
405 00:28:11,167 00:28:15,463 A good part of my life legally and extra legally, A good part of my life legally and extra legally,
406 00:28:15,630 00:28:19,509 consists of having friends in all walks of life. consists of having friends in all walks of life.
407 00:28:23,846 00:28:29,268 The way I met Rupert Murdoch, when they wanted a front page interview The way I met Rupert Murdoch, when they wanted a front page interview
408 00:28:29,435 00:28:32,397 with Carmine Galante, the Godfather. with Carmine Galante, the Godfather.
409 00:28:32,563 00:28:35,358 I never heard of a Godfather giving a newspaper interview before. I never heard of a Godfather giving a newspaper interview before.
410 00:28:36,651 00:28:39,362 The metropolitan editor to The Post called me and he said The metropolitan editor to The Post called me and he said
411 00:28:39,529 00:28:41,239 'We really want this interview,' and the boss says: 'We really want this interview,' and the boss says:
412 00:28:41,405 00:28:43,825 'He's read about you. If you put your mind to something you can get it done.' 'He's read about you. If you put your mind to something you can get it done.'
413 00:28:44,992 00:28:46,702 -Did you do it? -Yes. -Did you do it? -Yes.
414 00:28:52,208 00:28:55,670 He wanted to make himself this indispensable power broker. He wanted to make himself this indispensable power broker.
415 00:28:55,836 00:28:57,672 Sort of like the original fixer. Sort of like the original fixer.
416 00:29:00,674 00:29:02,259 There was no clear boundary There was no clear boundary
417 00:29:02,426 00:29:04,804 between his personal life and his professional life. between his personal life and his professional life.
418 00:29:04,970 00:29:06,347 It all kind of overflowed. It all kind of overflowed.
419 00:29:10,059 00:29:15,272 The townhouse was this combination of residence and place of business. The townhouse was this combination of residence and place of business.
420 00:29:16,982 00:29:19,485 Upstairs there were floors of offices. Upstairs there were floors of offices.
421 00:29:20,736 00:29:23,280 Second and third floors were his apartment. Second and third floors were his apartment.
422 00:29:25,282 00:29:28,410 And then, way up top was the roof deck. And then, way up top was the roof deck.
423 00:29:28,577 00:29:31,371 He would sit up there with his shirt off He would sit up there with his shirt off
424 00:29:31,538 00:29:36,502 and he would even receive clients while he was doing this. and he would even receive clients while he was doing this.
425 00:29:36,668 00:29:40,422 I assume that this law firm had been in existence for many years, I assume that this law firm had been in existence for many years,
426 00:29:40,589 00:29:42,716 but his name was not on the masthead. but his name was not on the masthead.
427 00:29:45,802 00:29:50,223 And my understanding is that he had divested himself of all his assets And my understanding is that he had divested himself of all his assets
428 00:29:50,390 00:29:53,894 so that he could not be sued; everything was owned by the firm. so that he could not be sued; everything was owned by the firm.
429 00:29:55,562 00:29:58,356 It's true? That you personally own nothing at all? It's true? That you personally own nothing at all?
430 00:29:58,523 00:30:00,567 One hundred percent true. One hundred percent true.
431 00:30:00,734 00:30:04,487 Reason number one, obviously, is my dispute with Internal Revenue. Reason number one, obviously, is my dispute with Internal Revenue.
432 00:30:04,654 00:30:07,908 I made up my mind I was not going to have bank accounts. I made up my mind I was not going to have bank accounts.
433 00:30:08,074 00:30:11,953 I carry cash, I also have no credit cards. I carry cash, I also have no credit cards.
434 00:30:12,120 00:30:14,122 You live very very well. You live very very well.
435 00:30:14,289 00:30:17,125 You have jets, limousines, yachts at your disposal. You have jets, limousines, yachts at your disposal.
436 00:30:17,292 00:30:21,212 I have very rich friends and clients who have confidence in me. I have very rich friends and clients who have confidence in me.
437 00:30:21,379 00:30:23,465 I can name you ten right now. I could call up and say I can name you ten right now. I could call up and say
438 00:30:23,631 00:30:26,718 'Look, I hate to trouble you, but I'm having a few problems. 'Look, I hate to trouble you, but I'm having a few problems.
439 00:30:26,885 00:30:31,514 Would it be convenient for you to loan me a large amount of money?' Would it be convenient for you to loan me a large amount of money?'
440 00:30:31,681 00:30:34,017 The answer would be, instantly, 'Yes. ' The answer would be, instantly, 'Yes. '
441 00:30:35,685 00:30:40,481 Roy Cohn manages to spend I guess a half a million dollars a year Roy Cohn manages to spend I guess a half a million dollars a year
442 00:30:40,648 00:30:43,526 as expenses without paying a penny of tax on it. as expenses without paying a penny of tax on it.
443 00:30:43,693 00:30:46,237 When we talk expenses, now that isn't so. When we talk expenses, now that isn't so.
444 00:30:46,404 00:30:49,198 First of all, I have paid an astronomical amount of taxes. First of all, I have paid an astronomical amount of taxes.
445 00:30:49,365 00:30:53,494 I very frankly don't want to earn any more than I have to earn, I very frankly don't want to earn any more than I have to earn,
446 00:30:53,661 00:30:59,584 because I don't like the way this country punishes the workers, because I don't like the way this country punishes the workers,
447 00:30:59,750 00:31:01,919 the middle class, the blue collar people, the middle class, the blue collar people,
448 00:31:02,086 00:31:04,505 the white collar people; I think it's lousy. the white collar people; I think it's lousy.
449 00:31:06,173 00:31:10,302 Roy Cohn wanted to die owing the IRS millions. Roy Cohn wanted to die owing the IRS millions.
450 00:31:11,971 00:31:13,431 He never paid his bills. He never paid his bills.
451 00:31:20,104 00:31:25,317 Here we have a bill from a lease for a 1983 Porsche Cabriolet. Here we have a bill from a lease for a 1983 Porsche Cabriolet.
452 00:31:25,484 00:31:28,570 This vehicle was repossessed on 4/30/84 This vehicle was repossessed on 4/30/84
453 00:31:28,737 00:31:32,866 for reason of 3 months delinquency.' In Roy's handwriting, for reason of 3 months delinquency.' In Roy's handwriting,
454 00:31:33,033 00:31:35,285 'Lillian,' one of the women who worked at Saxe, Bacon, Bolan, 'Lillian,' one of the women who worked at Saxe, Bacon, Bolan,
455 00:31:35,452 00:31:38,872 'please try to close it out with no payment. ' 'please try to close it out with no payment. '
456 00:31:39,039 00:31:43,418 The Four Seasons Clift Hotel in San Francisco, The Four Seasons Clift Hotel in San Francisco,
457 00:31:43,585 00:31:46,797 Roy's handwriting, 'not necessary to pay.' Roy's handwriting, 'not necessary to pay.'
458 00:31:46,964 00:31:53,136 Unpaid laundry bill of $1,598.21. Unpaid laundry bill of $1,598.21.
459 00:31:54,221 00:31:57,474 The 21 Club, ten and a half grand. The 21 Club, ten and a half grand.
460 00:31:57,641 00:32:00,352 Sheridan Hotel, 1,100 bucks in Hawaii. Sheridan Hotel, 1,100 bucks in Hawaii.
461 00:32:02,020 00:32:05,315 Did any of these establishments really go after him? Did any of these establishments really go after him?
462 00:32:05,482 00:32:09,486 There were suits against him, but did they collect? There were suits against him, but did they collect?
463 00:32:15,659 00:32:20,747 Roy wanted to have some Indonesian and Ming artifacts. Roy wanted to have some Indonesian and Ming artifacts.
464 00:32:20,914 00:32:22,499 I have a dealer here. I have a dealer here.
465 00:32:22,666 00:32:25,043 So, Joey said, 'Let's take Roy,' So, Joey said, 'Let's take Roy,'
466 00:32:25,210 00:32:28,630 and I said, 'No not good because Roy doesn't pay his bills.' and I said, 'No not good because Roy doesn't pay his bills.'
467 00:32:29,672 00:32:35,261 Roy wanted to go anyway and he went and he picked out three items. Roy wanted to go anyway and he went and he picked out three items.
468 00:32:35,428 00:32:37,305 It was about $70,000. It was about $70,000.
469 00:32:38,473 00:32:40,558 Six months went by, he hadn't paid. Six months went by, he hadn't paid.
470 00:32:40,725 00:32:43,144 Finally, the dealer came up to me and he says, Finally, the dealer came up to me and he says,
471 00:32:43,311 00:32:46,356 'Your friend, he don't pay nothing.' 'Your friend, he don't pay nothing.'
472 00:32:46,522 00:32:48,066 And I said, 'Not to worry.' And I said, 'Not to worry.'
473 00:32:49,692 00:32:54,363 I brought my car down there, and I went and knocked on the door. I brought my car down there, and I went and knocked on the door.
474 00:32:54,530 00:32:56,908 Elvira was his longtime housekeeper, Elvira was his longtime housekeeper,
475 00:32:57,074 00:32:59,160 and she knew me for years and years and years, and she knew me for years and years and years,
476 00:32:59,327 00:33:01,037 and I said 'I came to collect something.' and I said 'I came to collect something.'
477 00:33:01,204 00:33:02,997 She says 'Go ahead, take whatever you want.' She says 'Go ahead, take whatever you want.'
478 00:33:03,164 00:33:07,627 So I went in with my driver and we took out the 3 pieces of art, So I went in with my driver and we took out the 3 pieces of art,
479 00:33:08,669 00:33:10,630 put them in the car, brought them back to the dealer. put them in the car, brought them back to the dealer.
480 00:33:11,672 00:33:16,844 That night he took me to dinner, he never mentioned it, That night he took me to dinner, he never mentioned it,
481 00:33:17,011 00:33:19,138 he never brought it up, ever. he never brought it up, ever.
482 00:33:20,890 00:33:23,350 As we walked out, he said to the maître d, As we walked out, he said to the maître d,
483 00:33:23,517 00:33:25,019 'The check is in the mail. ' 'The check is in the mail. '
484 00:33:35,237 00:33:38,198 I had been very active in judicial reform politics. I had been very active in judicial reform politics.
485 00:33:39,575 00:33:45,873 So, in 1979 I decided that we needed a task force on Roy Cohn. So, in 1979 I decided that we needed a task force on Roy Cohn.
486 00:33:46,039 00:33:48,041 A lot of people knew that what Roy Cohn had A lot of people knew that what Roy Cohn had
487 00:33:48,208 00:33:50,878 was enormous power with the media. was enormous power with the media.
488 00:33:51,044 00:33:54,089 And we were trying to create a counterweight, essentially, And we were trying to create a counterweight, essentially,
489 00:33:54,256 00:33:57,509 and also document what was really going on with Roy Cohn. and also document what was really going on with Roy Cohn.
490 00:34:00,887 00:34:05,434 Roy Cohn was a hidden investor in a series of businesses Roy Cohn was a hidden investor in a series of businesses
491 00:34:05,600 00:34:09,104 that dealt with all cash primarily. that dealt with all cash primarily.
492 00:34:09,271 00:34:11,064 Among them was parking lots. Among them was parking lots.
493 00:34:14,276 00:34:18,613 His cash cow was city owned parking lots by the water His cash cow was city owned parking lots by the water
494 00:34:18,780 00:34:22,492 and he controlled the companies that had the parking lots and he controlled the companies that had the parking lots
495 00:34:22,659 00:34:26,037 that were city owned and it was an enormous amount of money. that were city owned and it was an enormous amount of money.
496 00:34:28,039 00:34:31,334 The guy who leased those parking lots to him, Rick Mazzeo, The guy who leased those parking lots to him, Rick Mazzeo,
497 00:34:31,501 00:34:34,129 wound up under federal investigation wound up under federal investigation
498 00:34:34,295 00:34:37,090 and they found his body in the trunk of a car, and they found his body in the trunk of a car,
499 00:34:37,257 00:34:42,053 and all he did was give parking lots to Roy Cohn. and all he did was give parking lots to Roy Cohn.
500 00:34:42,220 00:34:45,515 That's what he did for a living. That's what he did for a living.
501 00:34:45,682 00:34:50,853 Roy Cohn was one of the most evil presences, Roy Cohn was one of the most evil presences,
502 00:34:51,020 00:34:53,856 and I mean evil presences, and I mean evil presences,
503 00:34:54,023 00:34:58,069 in our society during most of my adult life. in our society during most of my adult life.
504 00:34:58,236 00:35:01,864 He was not just a lawyer for the mob, He was not just a lawyer for the mob,
505 00:35:02,031 00:35:03,783 he was an active participant. he was an active participant.
506 00:35:07,245 00:35:12,124 There were times where I'd be farmed out to pick up something or other. There were times where I'd be farmed out to pick up something or other.
507 00:35:12,291 00:35:16,545 One time I went to Philadelphia to some federal penitentiary One time I went to Philadelphia to some federal penitentiary
508 00:35:16,712 00:35:19,256 to pick up parole papers for whoever the Godfather was. to pick up parole papers for whoever the Godfather was.
509 00:35:20,466 00:35:24,136 There were trips over to New Jersey for various client matters. There were trips over to New Jersey for various client matters.
510 00:35:25,971 00:35:28,557 It sounds almost like you're a gangster now. It sounds almost like you're a gangster now.
511 00:35:28,724 00:35:32,228 Is this what drew such, alleged, let me, let me put it this way, Is this what drew such, alleged, let me, let me put it this way,
512 00:35:32,394 00:35:38,609 Godfathers, Galante, Genovese, 'Fat Tony' Salerno... Godfathers, Galante, Genovese, 'Fat Tony' Salerno...
513 00:35:38,776 00:35:41,070 Let's eliminate Tony Salerno right away. Let's eliminate Tony Salerno right away.
514 00:35:41,237 00:35:44,031 Tony is a, is a good guy. Tony is a gambler. Tony is a, is a good guy. Tony is a gambler.
515 00:35:44,198 00:35:48,369 He's filed income taxes, paid heavy income taxes for over 40 years. He's filed income taxes, paid heavy income taxes for over 40 years.
516 00:35:48,535 00:35:51,789 I like him better than a lot of my other clients. I like him better than a lot of my other clients.
517 00:35:51,955 00:35:54,625 I know that I can take his word. I know that I can take his word.
518 00:35:54,792 00:35:56,210 I know he has guts. I know he has guts.
519 00:35:56,376 00:35:58,962 I found him to be a warm, decent human being I found him to be a warm, decent human being
520 00:35:59,129 00:36:02,674 in his treatment of other people who needed help. in his treatment of other people who needed help.
521 00:36:03,842 00:36:08,221 What are the charges against your client Anthony 'Fat Tony' Solerno? What are the charges against your client Anthony 'Fat Tony' Solerno?
522 00:36:09,473 00:36:14,770 This indictment says that they supervise gambling, prostitution... This indictment says that they supervise gambling, prostitution...
523 00:36:14,936 00:36:17,773 They talk about a cement company and labor piece, They talk about a cement company and labor piece,
524 00:36:17,939 00:36:19,357 and that's really about all. and that's really about all.
525 00:36:19,524 00:36:22,611 If there's substance to this, I just don't see it. If there's substance to this, I just don't see it.
526 00:36:22,778 00:36:25,322 Tony, you've read the charges in this indictment, Tony, you've read the charges in this indictment,
527 00:36:25,489 00:36:28,700 did you do any of those things, any one? did you do any of those things, any one?
528 00:36:28,867 00:36:30,243 All false. All false.
529 00:36:33,121 00:36:38,501 In 1981 there was a strike of cement workers. In 1981 there was a strike of cement workers.
530 00:36:38,668 00:36:42,714 No ready mix concrete project in Manhattan No ready mix concrete project in Manhattan
531 00:36:42,881 00:36:45,717 was allowed to receive concrete by the Union. was allowed to receive concrete by the Union.
532 00:36:45,884 00:36:49,762 Only Trump Tower got their ready mix concrete. Only Trump Tower got their ready mix concrete.
533 00:36:52,473 00:36:55,435 Trump Tower when it was completed was the tallest concrete structure, Trump Tower when it was completed was the tallest concrete structure,
534 00:36:55,602 00:36:59,564 all concrete structure in the US; no steel in the building. all concrete structure in the US; no steel in the building.
535 00:36:59,731 00:37:01,899 Donald made that choice at a time when the mob Donald made that choice at a time when the mob
536 00:37:02,066 00:37:04,360 completely controlled the concrete industry in New York. completely controlled the concrete industry in New York.
537 00:37:05,778 00:37:08,948 Trump tower and Trump Plaza, his co-op project, Trump tower and Trump Plaza, his co-op project,
538 00:37:09,115 00:37:11,451 they were built by 'Fat Tony' Salerno's company. they were built by 'Fat Tony' Salerno's company.
539 00:37:12,493 00:37:16,080 Donald met in Roy Cohn's office with 'Fat Tony' Salerno Donald met in Roy Cohn's office with 'Fat Tony' Salerno
540 00:37:16,247 00:37:18,916 during the very time period that they were in construction. during the very time period that they were in construction.
541 00:37:20,418 00:37:23,588 Through Cohn, Trump received access Through Cohn, Trump received access
542 00:37:23,754 00:37:27,466 to the worst organized crime figures on the New York crime scene. to the worst organized crime figures on the New York crime scene.
543 00:37:31,637 00:37:34,557 Open up the files! No to the FBI! Open up the files! No to the FBI!
544 00:37:39,270 00:37:42,314 Open up the files! No to the FBI! Open up the files! No to the FBI!
545 00:37:44,859 00:37:49,321 After we were adopted, we had extraordinarily normal lives. After we were adopted, we had extraordinarily normal lives.
546 00:37:50,823 00:37:55,285 Went to high school, went to college, got married, had kids. Went to high school, went to college, got married, had kids.
547 00:37:55,452 00:37:57,371 Very few people that we knew Very few people that we knew
548 00:37:57,538 00:38:00,332 knew that we were the sons of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg. knew that we were the sons of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg.
549 00:38:02,126 00:38:06,213 It wasn't until 1973 Robby and I made a decision It wasn't until 1973 Robby and I made a decision
550 00:38:06,380 00:38:09,049 to come out publicly and reclaim our parents. to come out publicly and reclaim our parents.
551 00:38:10,842 00:38:13,220 Michael and Robert Rosenberg, age ten and six, Michael and Robert Rosenberg, age ten and six,
552 00:38:13,387 00:38:15,889 paid a final visit to their parents at Sing Sing. paid a final visit to their parents at Sing Sing.
553 00:38:16,056 00:38:18,058 25 years later, they and their supporters 25 years later, they and their supporters
554 00:38:18,225 00:38:20,143 are still fighting to clear the Rosenberg's name, are still fighting to clear the Rosenberg's name,
555 00:38:20,310 00:38:24,147 still insisting their parents were railroaded in a climate of hysteria. still insisting their parents were railroaded in a climate of hysteria.
556 00:38:24,314 00:38:28,026 They have taken the name of Meeropol after the family which adopted them. They have taken the name of Meeropol after the family which adopted them.
557 00:38:28,193 00:38:30,362 Working through the Freedom of Information Act, Working through the Freedom of Information Act,
558 00:38:30,529 00:38:32,072 the Meeropols have compelled the government the Meeropols have compelled the government
559 00:38:32,239 00:38:34,908 to release one hundred thousand pages of secret documents. to release one hundred thousand pages of secret documents.
560 00:38:35,075 00:38:37,494 Among other things, the papers suggest the Rosenbergs Among other things, the papers suggest the Rosenbergs
561 00:38:37,661 00:38:40,080 might have been granted a last minute reprieve might have been granted a last minute reprieve
562 00:38:40,247 00:38:43,625 had they volunteered to confess and testify about their activities... had they volunteered to confess and testify about their activities...
563 00:38:43,792 00:38:47,837 It's the era of Watergate, it's the era of Nixon being forced to resign. It's the era of Watergate, it's the era of Nixon being forced to resign.
564 00:38:49,047 00:38:52,133 This is a time to launch a campaign. This is a time to launch a campaign.
565 00:38:52,300 00:38:55,720 FBI close down, open up the files! FBI close down, open up the files!
566 00:39:02,977 00:39:04,979 I remember my brother in speeches I remember my brother in speeches
567 00:39:05,146 00:39:09,317 saying that by exposing the frame-up of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, saying that by exposing the frame-up of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg,
568 00:39:09,484 00:39:12,695 we were fighting Watergate at its roots, and that's true. we were fighting Watergate at its roots, and that's true.
569 00:39:15,782 00:39:20,411 We were actually sticking it to the government, and that felt good. We were actually sticking it to the government, and that felt good.
570 00:39:22,163 00:39:25,708 We felt confidence in ourselves, that we could make the case. We felt confidence in ourselves, that we could make the case.
571 00:39:26,792 00:39:32,340 I took a leave from my job, Robby was only working part time, I took a leave from my job, Robby was only working part time,
572 00:39:32,506 00:39:35,092 we wrote our book together, we went on speaking tours. we wrote our book together, we went on speaking tours.
573 00:39:36,177 00:39:42,391 Basically, from spring of 1974 through June of 1978, Basically, from spring of 1974 through June of 1978,
574 00:39:42,558 00:39:44,226 I had three jobs. I had three jobs.
575 00:39:44,393 00:39:46,395 I had my job to earn money, I had my job to earn money,
576 00:39:46,562 00:39:49,607 my job to be your and Greg's dad and mom's husband, my job to be your and Greg's dad and mom's husband,
577 00:39:49,773 00:39:53,319 and the job of public Rosenberg fighting to reopen the case. and the job of public Rosenberg fighting to reopen the case.
578 00:39:53,485 00:39:58,574 I'd like to see a judicial judgment, not just that my parents were innocent, I'd like to see a judicial judgment, not just that my parents were innocent,
579 00:39:58,741 00:40:00,951 but that individuals but that individuals
580 00:40:01,118 00:40:04,913 conspired criminally to convict them falsely. conspired criminally to convict them falsely.
581 00:40:05,080 00:40:07,416 I'd like to see the perpetrators locked up. I'd like to see the perpetrators locked up.
582 00:40:10,169 00:40:14,339 This was the 1970's, so you know sex, drugs, and rock and roll. This was the 1970's, so you know sex, drugs, and rock and roll.
583 00:40:15,424 00:40:19,177 I was relatively serious, didn't do much drugs by any means. I was relatively serious, didn't do much drugs by any means.
584 00:40:20,679 00:40:22,055 I liked music. I liked music.
585 00:40:23,432 00:40:25,517 My music experience was sitting around in the living room My music experience was sitting around in the living room
586 00:40:25,684 00:40:28,520 with four people playing guitar singing songs. with four people playing guitar singing songs.
587 00:41:05,932 00:41:07,684 -Do you go there for fun? -Sure. -Do you go there for fun? -Sure.
588 00:41:07,851 00:41:09,477 Do we see Roy Cohn on the dance floor? Do we see Roy Cohn on the dance floor?
589 00:41:09,644 00:41:13,898 I like to go there and watch. I like to go there and watch.
590 00:41:14,065 00:41:17,235 If they go back to Viennese Waltz I might come back into style. If they go back to Viennese Waltz I might come back into style.
591 00:41:24,575 00:41:26,828 You look to your left and you see a bunch of kooks. You look to your left and you see a bunch of kooks.
592 00:41:26,994 00:41:29,664 You look to your right you see movie stars, ambassadors, You look to your right you see movie stars, ambassadors,
593 00:41:29,831 00:41:34,085 senators, congressmen and it's a kick, it's just a thing all of its own. senators, congressmen and it's a kick, it's just a thing all of its own.
594 00:41:40,800 00:41:43,469 Why was Roy Cohn involved with Studio 54? Why was Roy Cohn involved with Studio 54?
595 00:41:43,636 00:41:46,263 It was the hottest disco in the world, It was the hottest disco in the world,
596 00:41:46,430 00:41:49,100 and somehow Roy was the lawyer for one of the partners and somehow Roy was the lawyer for one of the partners
597 00:41:49,266 00:41:51,560 and also sort of the lawyer for Studio 54. and also sort of the lawyer for Studio 54.
598 00:41:51,727 00:41:55,606 We cooperate with the authorities, but if you want a bond poster We cooperate with the authorities, but if you want a bond poster
599 00:41:55,773 00:41:58,901 that no one ever smoked a joint in a discotheque in the United States, that no one ever smoked a joint in a discotheque in the United States,
600 00:41:59,068 00:42:00,653 you're talkin' to the wrong guy. you're talkin' to the wrong guy.
601 00:42:02,696 00:42:06,200 Roy knew how to get permits taken care of. Roy knew how to get permits taken care of.
602 00:42:06,367 00:42:10,287 Unions to do your bidding. The Mafia to leave you alone. Unions to do your bidding. The Mafia to leave you alone.
603 00:42:11,538 00:42:14,500 Roy played Godfather to Rubell and Schrager. Roy played Godfather to Rubell and Schrager.
604 00:42:14,666 00:42:16,418 And they rewarded him appropriately. And they rewarded him appropriately.
605 00:42:16,585 00:42:20,255 They not only paid him well, but Roy had a key to the joint. They not only paid him well, but Roy had a key to the joint.
606 00:42:37,856 00:42:40,317 Studio 54. It was the first time Studio 54. It was the first time
607 00:42:40,484 00:42:44,571 that a nightclub operated on a completely different level. that a nightclub operated on a completely different level.
608 00:42:47,157 00:42:51,119 There was sex upstairs. Open sex, mostly gay. There was sex upstairs. Open sex, mostly gay.
609 00:42:51,286 00:42:54,748 And people dancing downstairs. And a hell of a lot of drugs. And people dancing downstairs. And a hell of a lot of drugs.
610 00:42:57,626 00:42:59,711 And Roy was there a lot. And Roy was there a lot.
611 00:43:06,009 00:43:10,388 Roy had alliances. I don't think he ever had relationships. Roy had alliances. I don't think he ever had relationships.
612 00:43:10,555 00:43:14,267 Roy was not interested in a relationship. Roy was not interested in a relationship.
613 00:43:14,434 00:43:16,352 For years, Roy pretended to be straight. For years, Roy pretended to be straight.
614 00:43:18,146 00:43:20,815 To the extent of announcing he was engaged to Barbara Walters. To the extent of announcing he was engaged to Barbara Walters.
615 00:43:22,233 00:43:24,152 We're getting married when we're both sixty. We're getting married when we're both sixty.
616 00:43:26,738 00:43:29,365 Roy would call Cindy Adams and would say, you know, Roy would call Cindy Adams and would say, you know,
617 00:43:29,532 00:43:31,200 'would you put an item in your column? 'would you put an item in your column?
618 00:43:31,367 00:43:33,494 Barbara Walters and I may get married.' Barbara Walters and I may get married.'
619 00:43:35,455 00:43:38,249 I knew the boyfriends. I can't remember who they were now. I knew the boyfriends. I can't remember who they were now.
620 00:43:38,416 00:43:40,459 But they were nice looking and young. But they were nice looking and young.
621 00:43:42,753 00:43:44,338 Should happen to me. Should happen to me.
622 00:43:44,505 00:43:48,718 Absolutely, it was fine. Yes, of course I knew. Absolutely, it was fine. Yes, of course I knew.
623 00:43:50,303 00:43:51,679 We all knew. We all knew.
624 00:43:55,474 00:44:00,062 Homosexuality is an enigma. Even in this era of bold sexual mores, Homosexuality is an enigma. Even in this era of bold sexual mores,
625 00:44:00,229 00:44:03,983 it remains a subject that people find disturbing, embarrassing. it remains a subject that people find disturbing, embarrassing.
626 00:44:04,150 00:44:07,486 Most Americans are repelled by the meer notion of homosexuality. Most Americans are repelled by the meer notion of homosexuality.
627 00:44:07,653 00:44:10,364 The homosexual, bitterly aware of his rejection, The homosexual, bitterly aware of his rejection,
628 00:44:10,531 00:44:12,449 responds by going underground. responds by going underground.
629 00:44:17,079 00:44:22,668 In the 70s, I was working, hooking at a bar called Rounds. In the 70s, I was working, hooking at a bar called Rounds.
630 00:44:25,796 00:44:28,674 I was picked up by this guy that I thought was very attractive. I was picked up by this guy that I thought was very attractive.
631 00:44:28,841 00:44:32,052 'Great 'cause I'm going to get paid plus he's really cute. ' 'Great 'cause I'm going to get paid plus he's really cute. '
632 00:44:34,096 00:44:40,310 They wanted me to meet somebody. And they drove me deep in the woods. They wanted me to meet somebody. And they drove me deep in the woods.
633 00:44:42,312 00:44:45,482 It was very secretive, it was cover operation like. It was very secretive, it was cover operation like.
634 00:44:53,907 00:44:59,329 Sitting on the sofa was Roy in this black velour robe. Sitting on the sofa was Roy in this black velour robe.
635 00:44:59,496 00:45:05,085 He was very tanned and very... you know, kinda lizard-like. He was very tanned and very... you know, kinda lizard-like.
636 00:45:05,252 00:45:06,878 But like an old auntie, But like an old auntie,
637 00:45:07,045 00:45:09,297 like that just came home from bingo and was cold. like that just came home from bingo and was cold.
638 00:45:10,757 00:45:13,843 He asked me to sit down on the Sofa next to him. He asked me to sit down on the Sofa next to him.
639 00:45:14,010 00:45:17,514 He made me a cocktail. I think I asked for a screwdriver. He made me a cocktail. I think I asked for a screwdriver.
640 00:45:19,140 00:45:24,145 I saw an album of Mabel Mercer and Bobby Short I saw an album of Mabel Mercer and Bobby Short
641 00:45:24,312 00:45:26,022 and I was a fan of this album. and I was a fan of this album.
642 00:45:29,776 00:45:33,029 He was really surprised that I knew who Mabel Mercer was. He was really surprised that I knew who Mabel Mercer was.
643 00:45:35,573 00:45:38,618 After a very long talk I went upstairs After a very long talk I went upstairs
644 00:45:38,785 00:45:42,622 and had sex with this guy that I guess was his boyfriend. and had sex with this guy that I guess was his boyfriend.
645 00:45:43,706 00:45:46,751 And then a couple weeks later it happened all over again And then a couple weeks later it happened all over again
646 00:45:46,918 00:45:51,506 where they brought me to him but I thought we were friends. where they brought me to him but I thought we were friends.
647 00:45:56,093 00:46:01,057 I said, 'what did you want me to come here for? I said, 'what did you want me to come here for?
648 00:46:01,223 00:46:02,600 Was I suppose to have sex with you?' Was I suppose to have sex with you?'
649 00:46:06,771 00:46:12,359 That's when it turned... in a very strange way. That's when it turned... in a very strange way.
650 00:46:16,280 00:46:18,282 And he got angry with me. And he got angry with me.
651 00:46:18,449 00:46:23,329 Didn't raise his voice so much as his eyes and the tone of voice was strange Didn't raise his voice so much as his eyes and the tone of voice was strange
652 00:46:23,495 00:46:26,915 and he said, 'I asked you here to discuss music.' and he said, 'I asked you here to discuss music.'
653 00:46:27,082 00:46:28,959 He was done with me at that point. He was done with me at that point.
654 00:46:29,126 00:46:32,546 It's sort of like Blanche Dubois. It's sort of like Blanche Dubois.
655 00:46:32,713 00:46:35,799 'I don't want reality, I want dreams'. 'I don't want reality, I want dreams'.
656 00:46:40,220 00:46:45,183 He came from a generation where you obviously couldn't be openly gay. He came from a generation where you obviously couldn't be openly gay.
657 00:46:45,350 00:46:47,311 And work in the world that he was working in. And work in the world that he was working in.
658 00:46:50,522 00:46:54,067 I remember that there was an assistant named Vincent. I remember that there was an assistant named Vincent.
659 00:46:54,234 00:46:58,155 He was a young, good looking guy who kinda passed in He was a young, good looking guy who kinda passed in
660 00:46:58,321 00:47:00,282 and out and gradually it dawned on me and out and gradually it dawned on me
661 00:47:00,449 00:47:02,617 that there was probably some kind of personally relationship that there was probably some kind of personally relationship
662 00:47:02,784 00:47:04,286 between him and Cohn. between him and Cohn.
663 00:47:04,453 00:47:06,454 Did you remember I have a lunch date with Barbara Walters? Did you remember I have a lunch date with Barbara Walters?
664 00:47:06,621 00:47:08,248 -When is that? -Today. -When is that? -Today.
665 00:47:08,415 00:47:11,918 He knew how to be a gay man who was in the closet. He knew how to be a gay man who was in the closet.
666 00:47:12,085 00:47:14,296 But he'll play games with it also. But he'll play games with it also.
667 00:47:15,463 00:47:19,634 He was flaunting it in a certain sense and sort of daring people He was flaunting it in a certain sense and sort of daring people
668 00:47:19,801 00:47:23,346 to see how much room there was to do whatever you wanted. to see how much room there was to do whatever you wanted.
669 00:47:34,983 00:47:38,069 I'm basically an introvert, a private person. I'm basically an introvert, a private person.
670 00:47:40,113 00:47:41,656 When I'm with my friends When I'm with my friends
671 00:47:41,823 00:47:45,201 under circumstances of privacy that's what I really love. under circumstances of privacy that's what I really love.
672 00:47:45,368 00:47:50,123 What makes my adrenaline go more than anything else is this combination. What makes my adrenaline go more than anything else is this combination.
673 00:47:50,289 00:47:53,292 I can't have one without the other. Public and private. Right. I can't have one without the other. Public and private. Right.
674 00:47:55,336 00:47:59,590 Many people were shocked that Roy Cohn appeared in Provincetown. Many people were shocked that Roy Cohn appeared in Provincetown.
675 00:47:59,757 00:48:03,469 Which is probably the worlds leading summertime gay community. Which is probably the worlds leading summertime gay community.
676 00:48:04,512 00:48:08,641 He was summering in Provincetown out in the open, quite conspicuously. He was summering in Provincetown out in the open, quite conspicuously.
677 00:48:16,232 00:48:19,693 Roy loved the craziness of Provincetown. Roy loved the craziness of Provincetown.
678 00:48:19,860 00:48:22,988 He loved the drinking, he loved the games, He loved the drinking, he loved the games,
679 00:48:23,155 00:48:25,491 the social crap that went on downtown. the social crap that went on downtown.
680 00:48:29,954 00:48:33,040 When I saw him, I was appalled that he was here. When I saw him, I was appalled that he was here.
681 00:48:35,209 00:48:38,128 The only place I ever saw him in person that I remember The only place I ever saw him in person that I remember
682 00:48:38,295 00:48:40,172 was in Front Street repeatedly. was in Front Street repeatedly.
683 00:48:41,507 00:48:46,053 It was a jumpin' scene in there. It was the place to be in Provincetown. It was a jumpin' scene in there. It was the place to be in Provincetown.
684 00:48:47,596 00:48:52,392 And he was always in there with hustlers and it infuriated me. And he was always in there with hustlers and it infuriated me.
685 00:48:54,603 00:48:57,356 All these boys around a table. All these boys around a table.
686 00:48:57,522 00:49:00,484 They were ordering champagne and fancy food and... you know. They were ordering champagne and fancy food and... you know.
687 00:49:00,651 00:49:03,487 It didn't seem they were discussing the history of communism. It didn't seem they were discussing the history of communism.
688 00:49:05,447 00:49:07,657 I would have been a communist then. I would have been a communist then.
689 00:49:07,824 00:49:11,787 Just meant a liberal really. I was worse. Just meant a liberal really. I was worse.
690 00:49:11,953 00:49:16,291 I was a young lunatic myself really so I never spoke to him. I was a young lunatic myself really so I never spoke to him.
691 00:49:16,458 00:49:19,211 And complained that he was in there to the people that owned it, And complained that he was in there to the people that owned it,
692 00:49:19,377 00:49:22,088 who was my dear friend Howard Gruber, who was jewish. who was my dear friend Howard Gruber, who was jewish.
693 00:49:22,255 00:49:25,342 He said I always spit in his food every time when I serve him. He said I always spit in his food every time when I serve him.
694 00:49:25,508 00:49:29,596 I would've done more than spit. I would've done more than spit.
695 00:49:29,763 00:49:35,226 He'd stop into Front Street to make a reservation for 25 person seating. He'd stop into Front Street to make a reservation for 25 person seating.
696 00:49:36,436 00:49:38,897 He was a true perfectionist. He was a true perfectionist.
697 00:49:41,107 00:49:44,777 Before any of the guests arrived he had to see it set up. Before any of the guests arrived he had to see it set up.
698 00:49:48,156 00:49:53,536 He would bring in these candy dishes and he would fill them with cocaine. He would bring in these candy dishes and he would fill them with cocaine.
699 00:49:54,704 00:49:57,040 A substantial amount of cocaine. A substantial amount of cocaine.
700 00:49:57,206 00:50:01,627 He would then place these Tuinals to the right of every setting. He would then place these Tuinals to the right of every setting.
701 00:50:01,794 00:50:06,382 It's a sedative so if they got too crazy on the cocaine, It's a sedative so if they got too crazy on the cocaine,
702 00:50:06,549 00:50:08,926 they would have a Tuinal to level themselves out. they would have a Tuinal to level themselves out.
703 00:50:11,804 00:50:14,807 It was a coke pit. It was during the cocaine years. It was a coke pit. It was during the cocaine years.
704 00:50:14,974 00:50:17,852 And I did cocaine in the bathroom, everybody did. And I did cocaine in the bathroom, everybody did.
705 00:50:18,019 00:50:19,854 Did I ever do coke with him? Did I ever do coke with him?
706 00:50:20,021 00:50:23,566 I wouldn't have had my nostril on the same straw as that pig. I wouldn't have had my nostril on the same straw as that pig.
707 00:50:27,236 00:50:30,656 He came here for easy sex, and handsome men, He came here for easy sex, and handsome men,
708 00:50:30,823 00:50:35,369 and probably easy access to drugs, and no paparazzi. and probably easy access to drugs, and no paparazzi.
709 00:50:35,536 00:50:38,664 And maybe the fact that people didn't know who he was. And maybe the fact that people didn't know who he was.
710 00:50:52,344 00:50:55,806 This is Roy's cottage that he rented, there. This is Roy's cottage that he rented, there.
711 00:50:55,973 00:50:59,434 It's fixed up somewhat now. It's fixed up somewhat now.
712 00:51:00,811 00:51:02,187 And this is my house. And this is my house.
713 00:51:03,105 00:51:06,275 So you can see we were very connected. So you can see we were very connected.
714 00:51:09,528 00:51:12,864 A neighbor up the street came to me that he had a renter. A neighbor up the street came to me that he had a renter.
715 00:51:13,031 00:51:15,409 I had never been here before, I said great. I had never been here before, I said great.
716 00:51:15,575 00:51:19,162 And he didn't tell me who it was. He said but don't worry about it. And he didn't tell me who it was. He said but don't worry about it.
717 00:51:20,872 00:51:24,751 So low and behold Roy Cohn moves in. So low and behold Roy Cohn moves in.
718 00:51:25,919 00:51:29,923 I didn't know that much about Roy but I knew enough. I didn't know that much about Roy but I knew enough.
719 00:51:32,634 00:51:36,346 The neighbors right away knew much more than I did. The neighbors right away knew much more than I did.
720 00:51:36,513 00:51:38,723 'How could you have done that to us?' 'How could you have done that to us?'
721 00:51:38,890 00:51:44,354 'How could you made that man live across the street from me? ' 'How could you made that man live across the street from me? '
722 00:51:44,521 00:51:49,609 But the rent was paid the house was clean and he was a good tenant. But the rent was paid the house was clean and he was a good tenant.
723 00:51:49,776 00:51:53,404 He had lots and lots of guests all the time. He had lots and lots of guests all the time.
724 00:51:54,697 00:51:59,327 Tall, blonde, blue eyed, built like... yummy. Tall, blonde, blue eyed, built like... yummy.
725 00:52:03,081 00:52:07,043 I never saw him alone, except for when he went swimming. I never saw him alone, except for when he went swimming.
726 00:52:20,681 00:52:22,892 That's an interesting thought. That's an interesting thought.
727 00:52:23,059 00:52:29,648 Never alone, always at least two or three people, if not more. Never alone, always at least two or three people, if not more.
728 00:52:29,815 00:52:31,192 Hovering. Hovering.
729 00:52:32,109 00:52:34,904 How important is it to spend time with yourself. How important is it to spend time with yourself.
730 00:52:40,993 00:52:42,953 I rented to him a second year I rented to him a second year
731 00:52:44,205 00:52:47,458 and he then came to me and said he wanted to buy it. and he then came to me and said he wanted to buy it.
732 00:52:47,625 00:52:49,209 And I said well it's not for sale. And I said well it's not for sale.
733 00:52:50,252 00:52:53,589 He looked at me with these very cold eyes. He looked at me with these very cold eyes.
734 00:52:54,631 00:52:57,593 He said, 'things have a way of being sold that aren't for sale, Anne'. He said, 'things have a way of being sold that aren't for sale, Anne'.
735 00:52:59,762 00:53:01,472 And I just shivered. And I just shivered.
736 00:53:05,309 00:53:08,312 Fortunately, he bought the place two house from me. Fortunately, he bought the place two house from me.
737 00:53:11,982 00:53:14,818 Norman Mailer and I were buying a house together. Norman Mailer and I were buying a house together.
738 00:53:14,985 00:53:17,237 Roy jumps into that project Roy jumps into that project
739 00:53:17,404 00:53:21,283 and snags for himself the cottage that's on the property. and snags for himself the cottage that's on the property.
740 00:53:29,332 00:53:32,460 I can recall one Sunday on his big deck. I can recall one Sunday on his big deck.
741 00:53:36,089 00:53:38,592 Roy is surrounded by newspapers. Roy is surrounded by newspapers.
742 00:53:38,758 00:53:41,928 The LA Times, The New York Times, London papers. The LA Times, The New York Times, London papers.
743 00:53:42,971 00:53:46,683 Norman Mailer had recently gotten back from Russia, Norman Mailer had recently gotten back from Russia,
744 00:53:46,850 00:53:49,436 where he did a piece for Parade Magazine, where he did a piece for Parade Magazine,
745 00:53:49,602 00:53:51,938 praising Russia to the skies. praising Russia to the skies.
746 00:53:52,105 00:53:53,481 He loved Russian food. He loved Russian food.
747 00:53:53,648 00:53:56,484 You've never had borscht like you can get in Moscow. You've never had borscht like you can get in Moscow.
748 00:53:56,651 00:53:59,237 Russian women - nothing like it. Russian women - nothing like it.
749 00:54:01,114 00:54:02,907 Roy was looking at Norman's piece Roy was looking at Norman's piece
750 00:54:03,074 00:54:04,867 and Roy looks up at me and he says, 'have you read this?' and Roy looks up at me and he says, 'have you read this?'
751 00:54:05,034 00:54:08,705 Your friend Mailer is so fucking in love with the Russians, Your friend Mailer is so fucking in love with the Russians,
752 00:54:08,871 00:54:12,208 he'll really be happy when the Ruskies drop a nuke on him. he'll really be happy when the Ruskies drop a nuke on him.
753 00:54:12,375 00:54:14,335 That'll bring him to his senses maybe. ' That'll bring him to his senses maybe. '
754 00:54:19,340 00:54:22,635 A discussion of "The Rosenbergs" A discussion of "The Rosenbergs"
755 00:54:22,802 00:54:24,387 Guilty or innocent? Guilty or innocent?
756 00:54:24,554 00:54:26,556 The question lingers after 30 years The question lingers after 30 years
757 00:54:26,722 00:54:29,392 and still divides many people here and abroad. and still divides many people here and abroad.
758 00:54:29,558 00:54:32,520 I would like to introduce briefly our guests tonight. I would like to introduce briefly our guests tonight.
759 00:54:32,687 00:54:36,857 To my left, Marshall Perlin, a lawyer involved with the case. To my left, Marshall Perlin, a lawyer involved with the case.
760 00:54:37,024 00:54:40,152 To my left, Professor Michael Meeropol, To my left, Professor Michael Meeropol,
761 00:54:40,319 00:54:43,030 one of the sons of Ethel and Julius Rosenberg. one of the sons of Ethel and Julius Rosenberg.
762 00:54:43,197 00:54:45,324 And to my right, attorney Roy Cohn. And to my right, attorney Roy Cohn.
763 00:54:48,077 00:54:50,454 When Robby and I got a lot of publicity, When Robby and I got a lot of publicity,
764 00:54:50,621 00:54:56,585 we discover that Roy Cohn has taken on the mantle of defending the government. we discover that Roy Cohn has taken on the mantle of defending the government.
765 00:54:56,752 00:55:00,881 Why was clemency not granted? What was standing in the way? Why was clemency not granted? What was standing in the way?
766 00:55:01,048 00:55:03,759 It is justified in the case of two people It is justified in the case of two people
767 00:55:03,926 00:55:07,096 who stole secrets involving a bomb, who stole secrets involving a bomb,
768 00:55:07,262 00:55:10,808 which could take thousands of human lives which could take thousands of human lives
769 00:55:10,974 00:55:12,851 and turning it over to an enemy, and turning it over to an enemy,
770 00:55:13,018 00:55:15,562 which has blacked out a good part of the world which has blacked out a good part of the world
771 00:55:15,729 00:55:17,606 and taken many human lives. and taken many human lives.
772 00:55:17,773 00:55:21,401 What could be worse than selling out your own country? What could be worse than selling out your own country?
773 00:55:21,568 00:55:23,028 -Mr. Meeropol? -Yes. -Mr. Meeropol? -Yes.
774 00:55:23,195 00:55:26,573 The first thing that people have to realize is, of course, The first thing that people have to realize is, of course,
775 00:55:26,740 00:55:30,535 that the man who is saying all of this was part of a prosecution team that the man who is saying all of this was part of a prosecution team
776 00:55:30,702 00:55:32,996 that engaged in subornation of perjury that engaged in subornation of perjury
777 00:55:33,163 00:55:36,833 and a conspiracy to deprive civil rights by false prosecution. and a conspiracy to deprive civil rights by false prosecution.
778 00:55:37,000 00:55:40,086 He's not going to stand on television in the US and confess to doing that. He's not going to stand on television in the US and confess to doing that.
779 00:55:40,253 00:55:43,798 He hasn't been in the habit of confessing crimes in his entire career He hasn't been in the habit of confessing crimes in his entire career
780 00:55:43,965 00:55:45,759 and I don't expect he's going to start now. and I don't expect he's going to start now.
781 00:55:45,926 00:55:48,386 The fact remains that ever since 1953, The fact remains that ever since 1953,
782 00:55:48,553 00:55:51,848 we have uncovered perjuries on the part of prosecution witnesses, we have uncovered perjuries on the part of prosecution witnesses,
783 00:55:52,015 00:55:55,935 we have uncovered forgeries, we have uncovered factual material. we have uncovered forgeries, we have uncovered factual material.
784 00:55:56,102 00:55:59,314 -You're accusing me of corruption! -No... -You're accusing me of corruption! -No...
785 00:55:59,481 00:56:00,857 Let me make a very interesting comment Let me make a very interesting comment
786 00:56:01,024 00:56:04,444 that your viewers might be interested in. We have a way of reopening the case. that your viewers might be interested in. We have a way of reopening the case.
787 00:56:04,611 00:56:08,406 If I just told a lie about Mr. Cohn's criminal conduct, If I just told a lie about Mr. Cohn's criminal conduct,
788 00:56:08,573 00:56:12,201 we've got a perfect chance to have a courtroom. we've got a perfect chance to have a courtroom.
789 00:56:12,368 00:56:15,913 -We don't want to get into this. -He knows what he did! -We don't want to get into this. -He knows what he did!
790 00:56:16,080 00:56:17,832 I would like to hear more about the motivation. I would like to hear more about the motivation.
791 00:56:17,999 00:56:21,335 Course he did know what he did. The point is he didn't care. Course he did know what he did. The point is he didn't care.
792 00:56:23,671 00:56:25,173 If it wasn't for me, Joe, If it wasn't for me, Joe,
793 00:56:26,424 00:56:28,676 Ethel Rosenberg would be alive today. Ethel Rosenberg would be alive today.
794 00:56:30,887 00:56:33,848 I would have fucking pulled they switch if they'd have let me. I would have fucking pulled they switch if they'd have let me.
795 00:56:34,015 00:56:36,684 Why? Because I fucking hate traitors. Why? Because I fucking hate traitors.
796 00:56:36,851 00:56:42,189 Because I fucking hate Communists. Was it legal? Fuck legal! Because I fucking hate Communists. Was it legal? Fuck legal!
797 00:56:42,356 00:56:45,693 Am I a nice man? Fuck nice! Am I a nice man? Fuck nice!
798 00:56:45,860 00:56:48,863 They say terrible things about me in The Nation. They say terrible things about me in The Nation.
799 00:56:49,029 00:56:51,031 Fuck The Nation! Fuck The Nation!
800 00:56:51,198 00:56:54,785 You want to be nice? Or you want to be effective? You want to be nice? Or you want to be effective?
801 00:56:55,995 00:56:58,998 Make the law, or subject to it! Choose. Make the law, or subject to it! Choose.
802 00:57:01,000 00:57:04,878 The Rosenbergs convicted themselves by taking the witness stand The Rosenbergs convicted themselves by taking the witness stand
803 00:57:05,045 00:57:06,922 and lying through their teeth. and lying through their teeth.
804 00:57:07,089 00:57:10,300 There were a number of other people recruited by the Rosenbergs, There were a number of other people recruited by the Rosenbergs,
805 00:57:10,467 00:57:13,053 working with the Rosenbergs, who escaped. working with the Rosenbergs, who escaped.
806 00:57:14,638 00:57:16,390 I welcome the full inquiry. I welcome the full inquiry.
807 00:57:16,557 00:57:20,477 I urge you to use the power of subpoena, get secret documents, I urge you to use the power of subpoena, get secret documents,
808 00:57:20,644 00:57:24,398 talk to witnesses, put people like Mr. Cohn under oath talk to witnesses, put people like Mr. Cohn under oath
809 00:57:24,565 00:57:28,402 and keep at him about things that were developed, and keep at him about things that were developed,
810 00:57:28,569 00:57:31,154 prosecution changes, etc. prosecution changes, etc.
811 00:57:31,321 00:57:35,575 I feel the people who framed my parents trampled the American flag in the mud I feel the people who framed my parents trampled the American flag in the mud
812 00:57:35,742 00:57:37,452 and I think it's up to us to wash it. and I think it's up to us to wash it.
813 00:57:37,619 00:57:40,038 I could look him in the eye and I could point at him and say, I could look him in the eye and I could point at him and say,
814 00:57:40,205 00:57:42,416 'You knew what you did'. 'You knew what you did'.
815 00:57:42,582 00:57:47,087 I kept saying, Come on, if I'm lying sue me!' I kept saying, Come on, if I'm lying sue me!'
816 00:57:49,130 00:57:51,383 And he just brushed it off. And he just brushed it off.
817 00:57:59,891 00:58:01,559 'Who elected Ronald Reagan? 'Who elected Ronald Reagan?
818 00:58:01,726 00:58:04,020 It was union members, defying their leaders. It was union members, defying their leaders.
819 00:58:04,187 00:58:06,481 It was the blue-collar worker, the truck driver. It was the blue-collar worker, the truck driver.
820 00:58:06,648 00:58:09,109 Because they're the ones who are getting hit by our economy. Because they're the ones who are getting hit by our economy.
821 00:58:09,275 00:58:11,986 It's the middle class that's been going under.' It's the middle class that's been going under.'
822 00:58:12,153 00:58:17,408 You know what? That is the subtext to the election of Donald Trump. You know what? That is the subtext to the election of Donald Trump.
823 00:58:20,578 00:58:22,121 And this was what? 1981. And this was what? 1981.
824 00:58:25,958 00:58:28,961 You have claimed you've been a fan of Ronald Reagan, supporter of Reagan. You have claimed you've been a fan of Ronald Reagan, supporter of Reagan.
825 00:58:29,128 00:58:32,381 -I haven't claimed, I have been. -Wonderful. For many years. -I haven't claimed, I have been. -Wonderful. For many years.
826 00:58:32,548 00:58:35,635 Way before on a national level. Way before on a national level.
827 00:58:35,802 00:58:39,096 When he made the speech for Barry Goldwater in 1964. When he made the speech for Barry Goldwater in 1964.
828 00:58:40,640 00:58:42,975 Ronald Reagan came across as a giant. Ronald Reagan came across as a giant.
829 00:58:43,142 00:58:46,646 We're at war with the most dangerous enemy that has ever faced mankind We're at war with the most dangerous enemy that has ever faced mankind
830 00:58:46,812 00:58:49,523 in his long climb from the swamp to the stars. in his long climb from the swamp to the stars.
831 00:58:49,690 00:58:51,651 And it's been said if we lose that war, And it's been said if we lose that war,
832 00:58:51,817 00:58:54,195 and in so doing lose this way of freedom of ours, and in so doing lose this way of freedom of ours,
833 00:58:54,362 00:58:56,697 history will record with the greatest astonishment history will record with the greatest astonishment
834 00:58:56,864 00:59:00,576 that those who had the most to lose did the least to prevent its happening. that those who had the most to lose did the least to prevent its happening.
835 00:59:13,297 00:59:16,717 Many people did not expect the governor from California, Many people did not expect the governor from California,
836 00:59:16,884 00:59:19,678 who was not sophisticated about international relations, who was not sophisticated about international relations,
837 00:59:19,845 00:59:21,221 to be elected. to be elected.
838 00:59:24,516 00:59:27,060 Roy predicted that he would be elected well before he was. Roy predicted that he would be elected well before he was.
839 00:59:28,395 00:59:30,606 Roy ushered in that Republican revolution. Roy ushered in that Republican revolution.
840 00:59:39,239 00:59:41,700 Since the time Governor Reagan in New York Since the time Governor Reagan in New York
841 00:59:41,867 00:59:44,411 made his announcement until the election, made his announcement until the election,
842 00:59:44,578 00:59:45,996 I don't know where I got the time from, I don't know where I got the time from,
843 00:59:46,163 00:59:49,374 because my partner Tom Boland had the main role because my partner Tom Boland had the main role
844 00:59:49,541 00:59:52,627 as finance director for Governor Reagan in New York, as finance director for Governor Reagan in New York,
845 00:59:52,794 00:59:56,464 but I had to do an awful lot and through all hours of the night. but I had to do an awful lot and through all hours of the night.
846 00:59:58,258 01:00:01,928 Roger Stone was a young campaign person who was working in New York, Roger Stone was a young campaign person who was working in New York,
847 01:00:02,095 01:00:04,681 and he met Roy because Roy hosted him at parties, and he met Roy because Roy hosted him at parties,
848 01:00:04,848 01:00:07,392 actually introduced him to Donald Trump. actually introduced him to Donald Trump.
849 01:00:07,559 01:00:11,813 And Roger Stone got a lot of money, so that when Reagan was elected, And Roger Stone got a lot of money, so that when Reagan was elected,
850 01:00:11,980 01:00:14,190 Roger Stone, Ed Meese and people around him Roger Stone, Ed Meese and people around him
851 01:00:14,357 01:00:16,025 felt that they owed a lot to Roy felt that they owed a lot to Roy
852 01:00:16,192 01:00:17,944 for making connections and getting him money. for making connections and getting him money.
853 01:00:18,111 01:00:20,446 Ronald Reagan also helped his fellow Republicans Ronald Reagan also helped his fellow Republicans
854 01:00:20,613 01:00:23,199 make a major change in the philosophy of Congress. make a major change in the philosophy of Congress.
855 01:00:23,366 01:00:27,453 It has become much more conservative in the Senate and in the House. It has become much more conservative in the Senate and in the House.
856 01:00:27,620 01:00:30,623 1980, it was a big Republican year, 1980, it was a big Republican year,
857 01:00:30,790 01:00:34,961 and I got elected to Congress as the youngest member of Congress. and I got elected to Congress as the youngest member of Congress.
858 01:00:35,128 01:00:39,215 I'd just turned 27 during the campaign, so I was young. I'd just turned 27 during the campaign, so I was young.
859 01:00:40,758 01:00:44,387 And, within a week or two after I got elected, And, within a week or two after I got elected,
860 01:00:44,554 01:00:49,058 I get a phone call and a letter asking a favor I get a phone call and a letter asking a favor
861 01:00:49,225 01:00:54,647 from this law firm that was Tom Boland and his law partner, Roy Cohn. from this law firm that was Tom Boland and his law partner, Roy Cohn.
862 01:00:56,065 01:01:00,569 They wanted their friends to get jobs from the Reagan White House. They wanted their friends to get jobs from the Reagan White House.
863 01:01:00,736 01:01:05,491 They asked me to support a candidate for federal judgeship. They asked me to support a candidate for federal judgeship.
864 01:01:05,658 01:01:07,910 Along the way, they asked me to write this letter, Along the way, they asked me to write this letter,
865 01:01:08,077 01:01:10,746 and they keep pushing it, which I ended up writing. and they keep pushing it, which I ended up writing.
866 01:01:10,913 01:01:13,749 It might have been the first letter of recommendation I wrote, It might have been the first letter of recommendation I wrote,
867 01:01:13,916 01:01:15,751 and it was for Maryanne Trump, and it was for Maryanne Trump,
868 01:01:16,961 01:01:19,880 Donald Trump's older sister, to be a federal judge. Donald Trump's older sister, to be a federal judge.
869 01:01:20,923 01:01:23,384 I've never been asked to do such a thing in my life. I've never been asked to do such a thing in my life.
870 01:01:23,550 01:01:25,177 A year earlier I'm in school. A year earlier I'm in school.
871 01:01:26,428 01:01:29,681 And, in the new administration the next year, And, in the new administration the next year,
872 01:01:29,848 01:01:32,601 President Reagan did appoint her to the federal bench. President Reagan did appoint her to the federal bench.
873 01:01:34,812 01:01:39,525 They were very influential with the President of the United States. They were very influential with the President of the United States.
874 01:01:48,116 01:01:52,245 I became very involved in the issue of American prisoners of war I became very involved in the issue of American prisoners of war
875 01:01:52,412 01:01:54,414 that were left behind during the Vietnam War. that were left behind during the Vietnam War.
876 01:01:55,665 01:01:58,668 I am now on the Foreign Affairs Committee in the House, I am now on the Foreign Affairs Committee in the House,
877 01:01:58,835 01:02:02,255 and I have a Laotian pilot and I have a Laotian pilot
878 01:02:02,422 01:02:06,968 that I'm hiring to go back to Laos to look around for information. that I'm hiring to go back to Laos to look around for information.
879 01:02:07,135 01:02:11,723 But we needed to accelerate his citizenship. But we needed to accelerate his citizenship.
880 01:02:11,890 01:02:13,391 So I ask Roy Cohn. So I ask Roy Cohn.
881 01:02:15,143 01:02:18,021 And, to this day, it is the single, And, to this day, it is the single,
882 01:02:18,188 01:02:21,441 most impressive use of power that I've seen in my life. most impressive use of power that I've seen in my life.
883 01:02:23,193 01:02:25,779 He said, "I've got it all set, here's what you're gonna do. He said, "I've got it all set, here's what you're gonna do.
884 01:02:25,945 01:02:27,697 You're going to go to Los Angeles. You're going to go to Los Angeles.
885 01:02:27,864 01:02:30,366 You're going to go to the Federal Courthouse. You're going to go to the Federal Courthouse.
886 01:02:30,533 01:02:32,785 You're going to go to some courtroom, You're going to go to some courtroom,
887 01:02:32,952 01:02:39,417 and there is a Judge Roy Carstairs will be running a federal trial. and there is a Judge Roy Carstairs will be running a federal trial.
888 01:02:39,584 01:02:42,045 And you will wait in the back of the courtroom, standing. And you will wait in the back of the courtroom, standing.
889 01:02:43,171 01:02:49,719 Judge Carstairs will see you there, he will call a recess of the trial, Judge Carstairs will see you there, he will call a recess of the trial,
890 01:02:49,886 01:02:53,973 and he will swear your Laotian in as an American citizen right on the spot. and he will swear your Laotian in as an American citizen right on the spot.
891 01:02:55,099 01:02:58,102 That is how to wield power. That is how to wield power.
892 01:03:04,233 01:03:06,694 Before I met him, I knew him as a fixer. Before I met him, I knew him as a fixer.
893 01:03:06,861 01:03:08,529 A guy who got things done. A guy who got things done.
894 01:03:08,696 01:03:10,531 It wasn't what you knew, it was who you know. It wasn't what you knew, it was who you know.
895 01:03:11,824 01:03:13,242 Claus Von Bülow Case Claus Von Bülow Case
896 01:03:13,409 01:03:18,414 The occasion I had to work with him was during the Claus Von Bulow case. The occasion I had to work with him was during the Claus Von Bulow case.
897 01:03:18,581 01:03:21,375 I was handling the criminal aspect of it. I was handling the criminal aspect of it.
898 01:03:21,542 01:03:23,752 He was handling the estate. He was handling the estate.
899 01:03:23,919 01:03:28,674 I was, I wouldn't say charmed by him, but I was pleasantly surprised I was, I wouldn't say charmed by him, but I was pleasantly surprised
900 01:03:28,841 01:03:33,387 by the fact that he wasn't the ogre that I had been told he was. by the fact that he wasn't the ogre that I had been told he was.
901 01:03:33,554 01:03:36,932 And he was determined to make me like him somehow. And he was determined to make me like him somehow.
902 01:03:39,309 01:03:43,856 He emphasized that he really admired me because of my support for Israel, He emphasized that he really admired me because of my support for Israel,
903 01:03:44,022 01:03:46,483 my support for Jewish values. my support for Jewish values.
904 01:03:47,985 01:03:49,987 He tried to persuade me He tried to persuade me
905 01:03:50,153 01:03:52,739 that he grew up at a time that he grew up at a time
906 01:03:52,906 01:03:55,993 when communism was associated with being Jewish. when communism was associated with being Jewish.
907 01:03:56,159 01:03:58,203 Not only the Rosenbergs, Klaus Fuchs Not only the Rosenbergs, Klaus Fuchs
908 01:03:58,370 01:04:03,375 and so many of the other people who were alleged to be spies were Jews, and so many of the other people who were alleged to be spies were Jews,
909 01:04:03,542 01:04:07,796 and so many leaders of Communist parties were Jews. and so many leaders of Communist parties were Jews.
910 01:04:07,963 01:04:11,174 He thought it was terrible that Jews were being associated with Communism. He thought it was terrible that Jews were being associated with Communism.
911 01:04:12,217 01:04:15,512 And he made a decision to stand up against Communism And he made a decision to stand up against Communism
912 01:04:15,679 01:04:18,890 as a visible Jew with a name like Cohn, as a visible Jew with a name like Cohn,
913 01:04:19,057 01:04:24,062 that can be seen around the world as Jews standing up against Communism. that can be seen around the world as Jews standing up against Communism.
914 01:04:24,229 01:04:28,900 And he went into great detail with me about the Rosenberg case. And he went into great detail with me about the Rosenberg case.
915 01:04:31,736 01:04:37,659 He told me that they knew for certain that Julius Rosenberg was a spy, He told me that they knew for certain that Julius Rosenberg was a spy,
916 01:04:37,826 01:04:42,747 they had wiretaps from some embassy that they couldn't disclose they had wiretaps from some embassy that they couldn't disclose
917 01:04:42,914 01:04:44,874 cause they are not supposed to be taping embassies, cause they are not supposed to be taping embassies,
918 01:04:45,041 01:04:47,085 but they were 100% confident. but they were 100% confident.
919 01:04:48,294 01:04:53,674 But they couldn't use the evidence and so they enhanced the evidence. But they couldn't use the evidence and so they enhanced the evidence.
920 01:04:53,841 01:04:55,718 They improved the evidence, They improved the evidence,
921 01:04:55,885 01:04:59,889 and he thought it was a morally just thing to do. and he thought it was a morally just thing to do.
922 01:05:00,056 01:05:04,101 The star witness for the prosecution was David Greenglass. The star witness for the prosecution was David Greenglass.
923 01:05:04,268 01:05:06,479 He now says this man made him do it. He now says this man made him do it.
924 01:05:06,646 01:05:13,444 Did Cohn encourage you to testify that you saw Ethel typing up the notes? Did Cohn encourage you to testify that you saw Ethel typing up the notes?
925 01:05:13,611 01:05:15,946 -Of course he did. -Did you realize at the time -Of course he did. -Did you realize at the time
926 01:05:16,113 01:05:18,741 or when you were testifying the importance of this, or when you were testifying the importance of this,
927 01:05:18,908 01:05:20,451 the evidence you were providing? the evidence you were providing?
928 01:05:20,618 01:05:23,120 I had no idea it was important. I had no idea it was important.
929 01:05:25,206 01:05:29,585 He also said that he did have many ex-party conversations He also said that he did have many ex-party conversations
930 01:05:29,752 01:05:33,005 with Judge Irving Kaufman, that they talked on the phone, with Judge Irving Kaufman, that they talked on the phone,
931 01:05:33,172 01:05:36,550 they had agreements about how to handle certain pieces of evidence. they had agreements about how to handle certain pieces of evidence.
932 01:05:37,593 01:05:42,181 He never denied that the case was fixed. He never denied that the case was fixed.
933 01:05:42,348 01:05:47,561 He used the term, 'We framed guilty people.' He used the term, 'We framed guilty people.'
934 01:05:47,728 01:05:49,938 We framed guilty people.' We framed guilty people.'
935 01:05:51,523 01:05:54,359 We tampered with the evidence We tampered with the evidence
936 01:05:54,526 01:05:59,031 in order to persuade the judge and the jury in order to persuade the judge and the jury
937 01:05:59,197 01:06:01,950 that these guilty people were in fact guilty. that these guilty people were in fact guilty.
938 01:06:04,995 01:06:09,750 In 1995, the CIA released the Venona Transcription In 1995, the CIA released the Venona Transcription
939 01:06:09,916 01:06:13,211 that attempted to prove that the government was right, that attempted to prove that the government was right,
940 01:06:13,378 01:06:15,922 that Julius Rosenberg, my father, was a spy. that Julius Rosenberg, my father, was a spy.
941 01:06:17,174 01:06:20,427 The media's reaction was, The Rosenbergs are guilty. ' The media's reaction was, The Rosenbergs are guilty. '
942 01:06:22,262 01:06:23,638 We were skeptical of it. We were skeptical of it.
943 01:06:23,805 01:06:27,642 But I had to contemplate 'what would it mean if it were true? ' But I had to contemplate 'what would it mean if it were true? '
944 01:06:30,270 01:06:33,606 If we agreed that this stuff was real, If we agreed that this stuff was real,
945 01:06:33,773 01:06:36,651 half of our case was already made for us. half of our case was already made for us.
946 01:06:36,818 01:06:40,738 It was clear that your grandmother was not a spy. It was clear that your grandmother was not a spy.
947 01:06:40,905 01:06:42,490 She never got a code name. She never got a code name.
948 01:06:48,162 01:06:52,417 If the whole truth had come out, we would have known at the time If the whole truth had come out, we would have known at the time
949 01:06:52,584 01:06:55,962 that Julius was guilty of being a spy for the Soviet Union, that Julius was guilty of being a spy for the Soviet Union,
950 01:06:56,129 01:06:58,798 but that the information he provided them but that the information he provided them
951 01:06:58,965 01:07:02,343 was not nearly as important or critical was not nearly as important or critical
952 01:07:02,510 01:07:04,887 as the way the government made it sound. as the way the government made it sound.
953 01:07:05,972 01:07:11,853 He was not the man who gave the atomic bomb to the Soviet Union. He was not the man who gave the atomic bomb to the Soviet Union.
954 01:07:12,937 01:07:16,190 The other thing that we would know for sure, is that Ethel Rosenberg The other thing that we would know for sure, is that Ethel Rosenberg
955 01:07:16,357 01:07:20,027 was not guilty of the crime for which she was charged. was not guilty of the crime for which she was charged.
956 01:07:20,194 01:07:22,113 But there was a plot afoot. But there was a plot afoot.
957 01:07:23,864 01:07:27,493 And the plot was, from the highest levels of government, And the plot was, from the highest levels of government,
958 01:07:27,660 01:07:30,496 to frame Ethel Rosenberg to frame Ethel Rosenberg
959 01:07:30,663 01:07:33,707 in order to get Julius to want to save her life in order to get Julius to want to save her life
960 01:07:33,874 01:07:38,212 by ratting out the people who he was in contact with. by ratting out the people who he was in contact with.
961 01:07:39,630 01:07:43,550 I don't think we've ever had a miscarriage of justice I don't think we've ever had a miscarriage of justice
962 01:07:43,717 01:07:46,595 that parallels the Rosenberg case in my lifetime. that parallels the Rosenberg case in my lifetime.
963 01:07:51,433 01:07:54,478 You told me before why you never wanted to go to the grave. You told me before why you never wanted to go to the grave.
964 01:07:54,645 01:07:58,816 I didn't want to put myself through the anguish of actually seeing the grave. I didn't want to put myself through the anguish of actually seeing the grave.
965 01:08:03,695 01:08:06,990 Most of the reopening effort was highly intellectual. Most of the reopening effort was highly intellectual.
966 01:08:07,157 01:08:09,660 It involved arguing, articulating. It involved arguing, articulating.
967 01:08:11,036 01:08:15,165 But there is a very, very personal side to this. But there is a very, very personal side to this.
968 01:08:18,585 01:08:21,588 Remember the family was broken up for a good 2 years. Remember the family was broken up for a good 2 years.
969 01:08:24,341 01:08:28,637 The period of time when we visited them was so amazing. The period of time when we visited them was so amazing.
970 01:08:28,803 01:08:31,223 Hugging them and kissing them. We played, we sang. Hugging them and kissing them. We played, we sang.
971 01:08:33,350 01:08:35,685 There was no pain because it was always... There was no pain because it was always...
972 01:08:35,852 01:08:38,021 'we still got hope' and 'see you next time'. 'we still got hope' and 'see you next time'.
973 01:08:41,316 01:08:44,778 The last visit was so terrible because there was no next time. The last visit was so terrible because there was no next time.
974 01:08:46,654 01:08:50,700 I was wailing, 'One more day to live, one more day to live.' I was wailing, 'One more day to live, one more day to live.'
975 01:08:50,867 01:08:52,535 Then they kissed us and left. Then they kissed us and left.
976 01:09:12,263 01:09:15,224 The last place I saw your grandparents was Sing Sing. The last place I saw your grandparents was Sing Sing.
977 01:09:19,395 01:09:24,233 Going to Sing Sing is a way of connecting to that ten year old. Going to Sing Sing is a way of connecting to that ten year old.
978 01:09:27,695 01:09:29,071 Memory is important. Memory is important.
979 01:09:34,285 01:09:36,412 Reminding myself of it is important. Reminding myself of it is important.
980 01:09:37,621 01:09:41,542 There were times in my teen years, and in my twenties where... There were times in my teen years, and in my twenties where...
981 01:09:43,377 01:09:47,798 the press of everyday life would sort of like take charge. the press of everyday life would sort of like take charge.
982 01:09:47,965 01:09:53,053 But I always, I always reminded myself where I came from. But I always, I always reminded myself where I came from.
983 01:10:27,254 01:10:31,883 Roy Cohn represents a type of person who recurs throughout history. Roy Cohn represents a type of person who recurs throughout history.
984 01:10:33,301 01:10:37,597 We know the Roy Cohn but every era has a Roy Cohn, We know the Roy Cohn but every era has a Roy Cohn,
985 01:10:37,764 01:10:42,102 an opportunist, somebody who will stretch the law and ethics, an opportunist, somebody who will stretch the law and ethics,
986 01:10:42,269 01:10:47,190 to make the ends justify the means. to make the ends justify the means.
987 01:10:49,401 01:10:52,195 This picture of Donald and me hangs in my office. This picture of Donald and me hangs in my office.
988 01:10:53,446 01:10:56,449 He says, 'Roy is my greatest friend.' He says, 'Roy is my greatest friend.'
989 01:10:58,910 01:11:02,497 The man is, as I say, the closest thing to a genius I've ever met in my life. The man is, as I say, the closest thing to a genius I've ever met in my life.
990 01:11:04,666 01:11:08,586 When he sees an opportunity, he's always there to take it. When he sees an opportunity, he's always there to take it.
991 01:11:08,753 01:11:12,173 And I have a feeling, someday, not too far distant future, And I have a feeling, someday, not too far distant future,
992 01:11:12,340 01:11:16,094 you're going to see Donald Trump in other parts of the country as well. you're going to see Donald Trump in other parts of the country as well.
993 01:11:18,304 01:11:22,016 In the early 80s, I was living in Washington In the early 80s, I was living in Washington
994 01:11:22,183 01:11:25,102 and I had just joined The Washington Post. and I had just joined The Washington Post.
995 01:11:26,646 01:11:29,398 After 30 years, the Republicans were hot again. After 30 years, the Republicans were hot again.
996 01:11:29,565 01:11:34,904 And all of us as young reporters were pursuing all the new young operatives. And all of us as young reporters were pursuing all the new young operatives.
997 01:11:35,071 01:11:38,282 Among them was Roger Stone, and Paul Manafort... Among them was Roger Stone, and Paul Manafort...
998 01:11:39,408 01:11:43,662 And, somewhere in there Roger Stone, who I'd cultivated as a source, And, somewhere in there Roger Stone, who I'd cultivated as a source,
999 01:11:43,829 01:11:46,916 said, 'You need to meet my friend Roy Cohn.' said, 'You need to meet my friend Roy Cohn.'
1000 01:11:47,083 01:11:51,378 Roy was very magnetic, and he knew how to cultivate the media. Roy was very magnetic, and he knew how to cultivate the media.
1001 01:11:51,545 01:11:54,507 I used to see him at parties and he'd be in town. I used to see him at parties and he'd be in town.
1002 01:11:54,673 01:11:57,593 He'd always stay at The Madison, which is across from The Post. He'd always stay at The Madison, which is across from The Post.
1003 01:11:57,760 01:12:00,596 And he's saying, 'I'm at the bar. Come on over and have a drink.' And he's saying, 'I'm at the bar. Come on over and have a drink.'
1004 01:12:00,763 01:12:02,556 And he would say, 'I've got a good story for you,' And he would say, 'I've got a good story for you,'
1005 01:12:02,723 01:12:04,391 but it always served his purposes too. but it always served his purposes too.
1006 01:12:04,558 01:12:07,394 Which is how I came to do a profile on Donald Trump. Which is how I came to do a profile on Donald Trump.
1007 01:12:09,772 01:12:12,608 Throughout the whole two hours I'm with him all Trump says is Throughout the whole two hours I'm with him all Trump says is
1008 01:12:12,775 01:12:15,736 'Either you got it or you don't. ' About everything. 'Either you got it or you don't. ' About everything.
1009 01:12:15,903 01:12:18,363 Either you can get a table at a restaurant or you can't. Either you can get a table at a restaurant or you can't.
1010 01:12:18,530 01:12:19,907 Either you can do this or you can't. Either you can do this or you can't.
1011 01:12:20,908 01:12:23,243 During the course of this, he says, During the course of this, he says,
1012 01:12:23,410 01:12:25,704 'I could be the nuclear arms negotiator. ' 'I could be the nuclear arms negotiator. '
1013 01:12:25,871 01:12:27,998 He said, 'I could know everything there is to know He said, 'I could know everything there is to know
1014 01:12:28,165 01:12:30,917 about missiles and nuclear arms in an hour and a half. ' about missiles and nuclear arms in an hour and a half. '
1015 01:12:34,254 01:12:36,298 And he said, 'Roy really wants me to do this. And he said, 'Roy really wants me to do this.
1016 01:12:36,465 01:12:39,718 Roy thinks that I would be a really good nuclear arms negotiator.' Roy thinks that I would be a really good nuclear arms negotiator.'
1017 01:12:40,760 01:12:44,181 And during this period, he apparently sends word back And during this period, he apparently sends word back
1018 01:12:44,347 01:12:46,892 to one of George Bush's operatives to one of George Bush's operatives
1019 01:12:47,058 01:12:49,394 that he could be working in the administration. that he could be working in the administration.
1020 01:12:49,561 01:12:52,606 So he was starting to feel pretty heady about himself So he was starting to feel pretty heady about himself
1021 01:12:52,772 01:12:54,316 and what he could be doing in government. and what he could be doing in government.
1022 01:12:55,650 01:13:00,113 Would you like to be in a position of negotiating disarmament? Would you like to be in a position of negotiating disarmament?
1023 01:13:00,280 01:13:02,198 Is that really what's in your head? Is that really what's in your head?
1024 01:13:02,365 01:13:05,160 I don't know who's negotiating for us, who had in the past. I don't know who's negotiating for us, who had in the past.
1025 01:13:05,326 01:13:07,745 I used to watch under Jimmy Carter's regime, I used to watch under Jimmy Carter's regime,
1026 01:13:07,912 01:13:10,665 I used to watch people going over and looking at these Russians. I used to watch people going over and looking at these Russians.
1027 01:13:10,832 01:13:12,542 I could look at the Russians, I could look at the Russians,
1028 01:13:12,709 01:13:15,461 at these people on our side and I could see there's no chance. at these people on our side and I could see there's no chance.
1029 01:13:15,628 01:13:18,715 That's like the Pittsburgh Stealers playing my high school football team. That's like the Pittsburgh Stealers playing my high school football team.
1030 01:13:20,550 01:13:22,635 Is it arrogant of Donald Trump Is it arrogant of Donald Trump
1031 01:13:22,802 01:13:26,431 to even think about negotiating a treaty with the Russians? to even think about negotiating a treaty with the Russians?
1032 01:13:26,597 01:13:27,974 It's not arrogance. It's not arrogance.
1033 01:13:28,141 01:13:32,353 It's the fact that he sees he has a talent in a certain area. It's the fact that he sees he has a talent in a certain area.
1034 01:13:32,520 01:13:35,898 Look his next stop might very well be Moscow. Look his next stop might very well be Moscow.
1035 01:13:39,819 01:13:44,031 I think what Roy Cohn saw in Donald Trump I think what Roy Cohn saw in Donald Trump
1036 01:13:44,198 01:13:46,867 was sort of an unpolished stone. was sort of an unpolished stone.
1037 01:13:47,034 01:13:50,579 He had some smarts, he had ambition and he had money. He had some smarts, he had ambition and he had money.
1038 01:13:50,746 01:13:53,082 And he had nerve. He wanted to shake things up. And he had nerve. He wanted to shake things up.
1039 01:13:54,500 01:13:58,129 Roy is building this foothold in Washington D. C. , Roy is building this foothold in Washington D. C. ,
1040 01:13:58,295 01:14:01,841 and Don wants a piece of this, and Roy wants him to have a piece of it. and Don wants a piece of this, and Roy wants him to have a piece of it.
1041 01:14:15,437 01:14:18,357 There's this wonderful photograph There's this wonderful photograph
1042 01:14:18,524 01:14:22,694 of Roy and his arm candy lover, Peter Fraser, of Roy and his arm candy lover, Peter Fraser,
1043 01:14:22,861 01:14:25,280 at the White House on a receiving line. at the White House on a receiving line.
1044 01:14:25,447 01:14:28,033 And there's Nancy and there's Ron. And there's Nancy and there's Ron.
1045 01:14:28,200 01:14:31,995 He's introducing his beautiful, for hire boyfriend. He's introducing his beautiful, for hire boyfriend.
1046 01:14:32,162 01:14:36,416 And both he and his lover, are being received like royalty. And both he and his lover, are being received like royalty.
1047 01:14:36,583 01:14:38,043 Like they're very important people. Like they're very important people.
1048 01:14:43,340 01:14:46,009 In the early through mid-80s, In the early through mid-80s,
1049 01:14:46,176 01:14:49,888 Peter Fraser was Roy's squeeze of choice. Peter Fraser was Roy's squeeze of choice.
1050 01:14:51,097 01:14:55,810 Peter Fraser was tall, blonde, athletic-looking New Zealander. Peter Fraser was tall, blonde, athletic-looking New Zealander.
1051 01:14:58,521 01:15:02,484 Roy got him made the Aramis man of the year. Roy got him made the Aramis man of the year.
1052 01:15:03,777 01:15:08,406 Aramis is the mens division of Estee Lauder Cosmetics. Aramis is the mens division of Estee Lauder Cosmetics.
1053 01:15:08,573 01:15:13,036 Estee and Joe Lauder were Roy's twenty, thirty-year-old, right-wing, Estee and Joe Lauder were Roy's twenty, thirty-year-old, right-wing,
1054 01:15:13,203 01:15:14,996 multi-millionaire friends and clients. multi-millionaire friends and clients.
1055 01:15:17,499 01:15:19,751 Peter Fraser was the kept partner Peter Fraser was the kept partner
1056 01:15:20,835 01:15:23,713 and actually served a function in the Roy orbit. and actually served a function in the Roy orbit.
1057 01:15:26,215 01:15:30,970 Here is a letter dated February one '85 on Saxe, Bacon, and Boland letterhead. Here is a letter dated February one '85 on Saxe, Bacon, and Boland letterhead.
1058 01:15:32,930 01:15:35,099 To whom it may concern... To whom it may concern...
1059 01:15:35,266 01:15:37,769 This is to confirm that Peter Fraser's employed This is to confirm that Peter Fraser's employed
1060 01:15:37,935 01:15:39,979 by the law firm Saxe Bacon, and Boland by the law firm Saxe Bacon, and Boland
1061 01:15:40,146 01:15:45,151 and he resides at the company house in Provincetown, Massachusetts. and he resides at the company house in Provincetown, Massachusetts.
1062 01:15:45,318 01:15:47,528 Yours Truly, Roy M. Cohn.' Yours Truly, Roy M. Cohn.'
1063 01:15:48,571 01:15:49,947 Wild! Wild!
1064 01:15:50,865 01:15:56,287 Pay to the order of Peter Fraser. $5,284. Pay to the order of Peter Fraser. $5,284.
1065 01:15:56,454 01:16:00,916 Here are credit cards receipts in Peter Fraser's name. Here are credit cards receipts in Peter Fraser's name.
1066 01:16:01,083 01:16:04,044 Roy could not use credit cards, Roy could not use credit cards,
1067 01:16:04,211 01:16:11,427 'cause any purchase would be trackable and subject to IRS scrutiny. 'cause any purchase would be trackable and subject to IRS scrutiny.
1068 01:16:12,469 01:16:15,180 Who is this? My god, this is more transfers. Who is this? My god, this is more transfers.
1069 01:16:15,347 01:16:20,894 Holy shit. Bank of New Zealand for 10,012.50 dollars. Holy shit. Bank of New Zealand for 10,012.50 dollars.
1070 01:16:21,061 01:16:25,899 On the same day, there was another transfer of 10,000. On the same day, there was another transfer of 10,000.
1071 01:16:26,066 01:16:27,443 Jesus Christ! Jesus Christ!
1072 01:16:28,610 01:16:35,159 Deposits 43,000, 50, 90,000 dollars, 45,000, 50,000 dollars. Deposits 43,000, 50, 90,000 dollars, 45,000, 50,000 dollars.
1073 01:16:35,325 01:16:37,619 This is money laundering. This is money laundering.
1074 01:16:37,786 01:16:41,873 Roy is using Peter as a cut-out. Roy is using Peter as a cut-out.
1075 01:16:42,040 01:16:44,501 You know what a cut-out is in spy language? You know what a cut-out is in spy language?
1076 01:16:45,627 01:16:48,296 You're on one side of the fence, I'm on the other, You're on one side of the fence, I'm on the other,
1077 01:16:48,463 01:16:50,340 but I have this guy over here, but I have this guy over here,
1078 01:16:50,507 01:16:53,301 and he gets everything I have even though you're focusing on me. and he gets everything I have even though you're focusing on me.
1079 01:16:54,803 01:17:01,726 I don't know what these 90-100,000 $ balances in his account represent. I don't know what these 90-100,000 $ balances in his account represent.
1080 01:17:01,893 01:17:03,854 Where is that money coming from? Where is that money coming from?
1081 01:17:04,020 01:17:07,107 It's coming through Roy, but where is that coming from? It's coming through Roy, but where is that coming from?
1082 01:17:09,651 01:17:11,736 Two years ago, Richard Dupont had this idea. Two years ago, Richard Dupont had this idea.
1083 01:17:11,903 01:17:14,572 He would open a health club in the West Village for gays. He would open a health club in the West Village for gays.
1084 01:17:14,739 01:17:18,868 He took over an abandoned 6-story warehouse on Greenwich street, He took over an abandoned 6-story warehouse on Greenwich street,
1085 01:17:19,035 01:17:22,997 and spent the next year and almost one million dollars renovating it. and spent the next year and almost one million dollars renovating it.
1086 01:17:23,164 01:17:25,333 What I think most people are afraid of What I think most people are afraid of
1087 01:17:25,500 01:17:30,004 is the very fact that they may see homosexual people as real people, is the very fact that they may see homosexual people as real people,
1088 01:17:30,171 01:17:32,799 as people who aren't deviants and perverts. as people who aren't deviants and perverts.
1089 01:17:34,592 01:17:38,096 Richard Dupont originally met Roy in Miami Beach, Richard Dupont originally met Roy in Miami Beach,
1090 01:17:38,262 01:17:41,182 where he turned a trick for Roy as a gay prostitute. where he turned a trick for Roy as a gay prostitute.
1091 01:17:42,266 01:17:45,770 Richard Dupont was a grifter, a guy who lived on his wits. Richard Dupont was a grifter, a guy who lived on his wits.
1092 01:17:46,938 01:17:49,690 And such people could be useful to Roy Cohn. And such people could be useful to Roy Cohn.
1093 01:17:51,984 01:17:54,195 Ray Kiley, N. Y. County District Attorney's office, Ray Kiley, N. Y. County District Attorney's office,
1094 01:17:54,362 01:17:58,908 today is July 17, 1980, the time is now 4:25 pm. today is July 17, 1980, the time is now 4:25 pm.
1095 01:17:59,075 01:18:02,161 -Hello? -My name is Richard Dupont. -Hello? -My name is Richard Dupont.
1096 01:18:02,328 01:18:06,499 It's very simple Mr. Kiley. Mr. Cohn was my partner in a health club. It's very simple Mr. Kiley. Mr. Cohn was my partner in a health club.
1097 01:18:08,459 01:18:13,172 And unfortunately, Roy sold me out for a half a million dollars. And unfortunately, Roy sold me out for a half a million dollars.
1098 01:18:13,339 01:18:16,801 Whatever legal procedures I can go after Mr. Cohn I will do it. Whatever legal procedures I can go after Mr. Cohn I will do it.
1099 01:18:18,552 01:18:20,262 And the guy decided to wreck revenge. And the guy decided to wreck revenge.
1100 01:18:20,429 01:18:23,098 And he got to Roy like no one else got to Roy, ever. And he got to Roy like no one else got to Roy, ever.
1101 01:18:25,309 01:18:29,938 He would call the airline and say, 'This is Roy Cohn calling. He would call the airline and say, 'This is Roy Cohn calling.
1102 01:18:30,105 01:18:34,276 You know my reservation for 2 o'clock to Texas? Cancel it. ' You know my reservation for 2 o'clock to Texas? Cancel it. '
1103 01:18:34,443 01:18:38,322 Roy Cohn would show up with his bags and his reservation had been canceled. Roy Cohn would show up with his bags and his reservation had been canceled.
1104 01:18:40,657 01:18:43,785 At the Ford shareholders meeting, a woman came At the Ford shareholders meeting, a woman came
1105 01:18:43,952 01:18:49,458 with a delivery of flowers for him, and the flowers were wilted. with a delivery of flowers for him, and the flowers were wilted.
1106 01:18:49,625 01:18:53,962 There was a note with the flowers , 'Roy Cohn can lick anyone!' There was a note with the flowers , 'Roy Cohn can lick anyone!'
1107 01:18:55,380 01:18:57,507 I believe that was a double entendre. I believe that was a double entendre.
1108 01:18:59,468 01:19:03,638 One morning, where Roy's office was on East 68th street, One morning, where Roy's office was on East 68th street,
1109 01:19:03,805 01:19:06,641 for the whole block, every five feet, for the whole block, every five feet,
1110 01:19:06,808 01:19:10,937 there was a stenciled message: 'Roy Cohn is a Fag.' there was a stenciled message: 'Roy Cohn is a Fag.'
1111 01:19:13,356 01:19:15,984 Roy was going crazy. Roy was going crazy.
1112 01:19:16,151 01:19:19,279 I mean this is the devil, visiting the devil, as it were. I mean this is the devil, visiting the devil, as it were.
1113 01:19:22,907 01:19:24,909 -Hello, Richard? -Yes. -Hello, Richard? -Yes.
1114 01:19:25,076 01:19:27,829 -Roy Cohn. -Yes, Roy. How are you? -Roy Cohn. -Yes, Roy. How are you?
1115 01:19:27,996 01:19:32,125 -Richard, when is this going to stop? -When is what going to stop now? -Richard, when is this going to stop? -When is what going to stop now?
1116 01:19:33,543 01:19:36,421 I don't know where to start. I don't know what you want of me, I don't know where to start. I don't know what you want of me,
1117 01:19:36,588 01:19:38,756 and I don't know how much it is you expect me to take. and I don't know how much it is you expect me to take.
1118 01:19:38,923 01:19:40,758 You call up the Greenwich police department, You call up the Greenwich police department,
1119 01:19:40,925 01:19:43,761 an evening that I had a bunch of people up there. an evening that I had a bunch of people up there.
1120 01:19:43,928 01:19:47,390 Said a man had been stabbed to death in the house, and others are in danger. Said a man had been stabbed to death in the house, and others are in danger.
1121 01:19:47,557 01:19:50,351 You called the fire department, said the place was burning. You called the fire department, said the place was burning.
1122 01:19:50,518 01:19:53,521 And a half hour later, we had a house full of police and firemen. And a half hour later, we had a house full of police and firemen.
1123 01:19:53,688 01:19:55,565 I have never called the police on you. I have never called the police on you.
1124 01:19:55,731 01:19:57,275 What do you mean, "on me?" What do you mean, "on me?"
1125 01:19:57,442 01:19:59,986 You said to me I called the police department on you. You said to me I called the police department on you.
1126 01:20:00,153 01:20:03,322 You seem to put some magic in the words, "on you." You seem to put some magic in the words, "on you."
1127 01:20:03,489 01:20:06,200 -I know you called the police. -I did not call the police. -I know you called the police. -I did not call the police.
1128 01:20:06,367 01:20:09,662 I don't play with dynamite. And that's dynamite. I don't play with dynamite. And that's dynamite.
1129 01:20:10,955 01:20:14,291 I would just urge you and implore you to please stop. I would just urge you and implore you to please stop.
1130 01:20:16,836 01:20:20,339 I'm surprised he didn't have him killed, but maybe it would too obvious. I'm surprised he didn't have him killed, but maybe it would too obvious.
1131 01:20:20,506 01:20:23,843 He couldn't scare him off. And Dupont just kept going. He couldn't scare him off. And Dupont just kept going.
1132 01:20:33,769 01:20:36,814 In 1980, on Gay Pride day, In 1980, on Gay Pride day,
1133 01:20:36,981 01:20:40,442 there was a publication of a magazine called Now East, there was a publication of a magazine called Now East,
1134 01:20:40,609 01:20:44,321 which contained all of Dupont's fantasies about Roy Cohn. which contained all of Dupont's fantasies about Roy Cohn.
1135 01:20:50,035 01:20:53,455 It's obvious that you are out to do in Roy. It's obvious that you are out to do in Roy.
1136 01:20:55,332 01:20:57,376 Do you think that you'll outlast Roy? Do you think that you'll outlast Roy?
1137 01:20:57,542 01:21:00,921 God! The second issue. God! The second issue.
1138 01:21:01,088 01:21:03,048 The second issue is going to do him in you think? The second issue is going to do him in you think?
1139 01:21:03,215 01:21:06,009 -And the third issue. -There's a third one coming too? -And the third issue. -There's a third one coming too?
1140 01:21:06,176 01:21:07,761 Yes, there will be every issue. Yes, there will be every issue.
1141 01:21:07,928 01:21:10,097 How long's this magazine going to go on? How long's this magazine going to go on?
1142 01:21:10,263 01:21:12,766 People eventually may become bored with Roy Cohn. People eventually may become bored with Roy Cohn.
1143 01:21:12,933 01:21:16,561 I don't know whether they'll be become bored with Roy Cohn or not. I don't know whether they'll be become bored with Roy Cohn or not.
1144 01:21:18,897 01:21:21,483 These were distributed, they were left in restaurants, These were distributed, they were left in restaurants,
1145 01:21:21,650 01:21:24,736 fancy clothing stores, gay bars. fancy clothing stores, gay bars.
1146 01:21:26,488 01:21:32,577 Roy was genuinely agitated and Roy didn't show anxiety easily. Roy was genuinely agitated and Roy didn't show anxiety easily.
1147 01:21:32,744 01:21:37,040 'I'm gonna get that motherfucker. I'm gonna kill him. This is gonna end. ' 'I'm gonna get that motherfucker. I'm gonna kill him. This is gonna end. '
1148 01:21:37,207 01:21:39,793 We have a story about a man who is now charged with a violent crime, We have a story about a man who is now charged with a violent crime,
1149 01:21:39,959 01:21:41,961 but he is the object of a lot of attention but he is the object of a lot of attention
1150 01:21:42,128 01:21:43,588 from the Manhattan district attorney. from the Manhattan district attorney.
1151 01:21:43,755 01:21:45,673 This is Richard Dupont. This is Richard Dupont.
1152 01:21:45,840 01:21:49,677 He was arrested in what his lawyer described as a 'pre-dawn raid,' He was arrested in what his lawyer described as a 'pre-dawn raid,'
1153 01:21:49,844 01:21:53,348 in which four detectives came crashing into his apartment. in which four detectives came crashing into his apartment.
1154 01:21:53,514 01:21:56,768 I received information from my client, I received information from my client,
1155 01:21:56,934 01:22:00,855 that he had learned from associates of Mr. Cohn, that he had learned from associates of Mr. Cohn,
1156 01:22:01,022 01:22:02,857 that he was to be indicted on Friday. that he was to be indicted on Friday.
1157 01:22:04,734 01:22:07,945 Were we here because of Now East? Baloney. Were we here because of Now East? Baloney.
1158 01:22:09,071 01:22:11,741 We're here because Richard had the temerity We're here because Richard had the temerity
1159 01:22:11,908 01:22:14,619 to ignore that warning and mess with Roy Cohn. to ignore that warning and mess with Roy Cohn.
1160 01:22:16,120 01:22:19,582 I think that this is Roy's chance to go after somebody. I think that this is Roy's chance to go after somebody.
1161 01:22:19,749 01:22:22,084 Because no one else has ever done these things to Roy. Because no one else has ever done these things to Roy.
1162 01:22:22,251 01:22:23,627 No matter who they are. No matter who they are.
1163 01:22:27,214 01:22:29,508 He was acquitted the first two counts, He was acquitted the first two counts,
1164 01:22:29,675 01:22:32,511 but he was convicted of four or five misdemeanors. but he was convicted of four or five misdemeanors.
1165 01:22:32,678 01:22:35,514 Misdemeanor clients don't go to penitentiaries. Misdemeanor clients don't go to penitentiaries.
1166 01:22:35,681 01:22:39,476 And I felt at the time, given who he was dealing with, And I felt at the time, given who he was dealing with,
1167 01:22:39,643 01:22:43,897 the virtual member of organized crime, the virtual member of organized crime,
1168 01:22:44,064 01:22:45,941 or the attorney Roy Cohn, or the attorney Roy Cohn,
1169 01:22:46,108 01:22:48,027 that Richard wouldn't have lasted in a penitentiary. that Richard wouldn't have lasted in a penitentiary.
1170 01:22:48,193 01:22:52,489 And Richard Dupont as I recall served 18 months in state prison And Richard Dupont as I recall served 18 months in state prison
1171 01:22:52,656 01:22:54,283 for fucking with Roy Cohn. for fucking with Roy Cohn.
1172 01:22:54,450 01:22:56,785 Don't mess with Roy Cohn. Moral of the story. Don't mess with Roy Cohn. Moral of the story.
1173 01:23:08,130 01:23:10,966 In the eighties, you could be fired as a school teacher In the eighties, you could be fired as a school teacher
1174 01:23:11,133 01:23:13,510 if you were known to be gay. if you were known to be gay.
1175 01:23:13,677 01:23:15,804 You could be denied an apartment. You could be denied an apartment.
1176 01:23:15,971 01:23:19,766 That happened constantly in a liberal bastion like New York City. That happened constantly in a liberal bastion like New York City.
1177 01:23:20,892 01:23:25,814 You could be denied service in a restaurant or a bar. You could be denied service in a restaurant or a bar.
1178 01:23:25,981 01:23:28,066 You had no recourse. You had no recourse.
1179 01:23:28,233 01:23:33,571 For 15 years, the Gay Rights Bill came up for a vote, and it was voted down. For 15 years, the Gay Rights Bill came up for a vote, and it was voted down.
1180 01:23:33,738 01:23:38,785 My greatest concern is not about open restaurants or this gay rights bill. My greatest concern is not about open restaurants or this gay rights bill.
1181 01:23:40,161 01:23:44,207 I think if you are a man about things and you can fight your own fights, I think if you are a man about things and you can fight your own fights,
1182 01:23:44,374 01:23:47,377 things come out okay in the long run. things come out okay in the long run.
1183 01:23:47,544 01:23:51,798 Roy Cohn was very involved with politics in New York City. Roy Cohn was very involved with politics in New York City.
1184 01:23:51,965 01:23:55,552 He was a lobbyist and spokesperson for the archdiocese of New York, He was a lobbyist and spokesperson for the archdiocese of New York,
1185 01:23:55,718 01:24:00,181 which in those years was very powerful politically, which in those years was very powerful politically,
1186 01:24:00,348 01:24:04,686 because the cardinal of New York had enormous control and veto power because the cardinal of New York had enormous control and veto power
1187 01:24:04,852 01:24:06,396 over legislation on the City Council. over legislation on the City Council.
1188 01:24:08,064 01:24:10,566 Roy Cohn started making public comments. Roy Cohn started making public comments.
1189 01:24:14,946 01:24:17,532 First of all, I don't like any of these rights bills. First of all, I don't like any of these rights bills.
1190 01:24:17,698 01:24:21,786 Women's rights bill as such was defeated in New York very properly. Women's rights bill as such was defeated in New York very properly.
1191 01:24:21,953 01:24:24,789 I don't like that. If the Gay Rights Bill goes to a referendum, I don't like that. If the Gay Rights Bill goes to a referendum,
1192 01:24:24,956 01:24:26,749 I think the people will defeat that too. I think the people will defeat that too.
1193 01:24:26,916 01:24:29,043 I think that there are features of that bill I think that there are features of that bill
1194 01:24:29,210 01:24:32,630 that constitutes a clear and present danger that constitutes a clear and present danger
1195 01:24:32,797 01:24:36,175 to the upbringing of children and to family life, to the upbringing of children and to family life,
1196 01:24:36,342 01:24:39,303 and I don't think it's a cut and dried issue at all. and I don't think it's a cut and dried issue at all.
1197 01:24:42,014 01:24:45,517 Taking a very public, hostile stance to gay people Taking a very public, hostile stance to gay people
1198 01:24:45,684 01:24:49,229 made everybody who wasn't in the know feel, made everybody who wasn't in the know feel,
1199 01:24:49,396 01:24:53,400 'There's a rumor that Roy Cohn is a homosexual, that's ridiculous.' 'There's a rumor that Roy Cohn is a homosexual, that's ridiculous.'
1200 01:24:54,943 01:24:57,780 The other thing was the Catholic Church. The other thing was the Catholic Church.
1201 01:24:57,946 01:24:59,782 And they had a similar problem. And they had a similar problem.
1202 01:25:02,159 01:25:06,538 Cardinal Spellman was thought by many people to be gay. Cardinal Spellman was thought by many people to be gay.
1203 01:25:06,705 01:25:10,042 He was a very close social friend of Roy Cohn's, He was a very close social friend of Roy Cohn's,
1204 01:25:10,209 01:25:12,502 and he was very reactionary. and he was very reactionary.
1205 01:25:13,712 01:25:18,216 That's the environment that Roy Cohn reinforced That's the environment that Roy Cohn reinforced
1206 01:25:18,383 01:25:24,514 and pushed and supported in a way that oppressed millions of people. and pushed and supported in a way that oppressed millions of people.
1207 01:25:24,681 01:25:29,436 To know that this man was actively gay To know that this man was actively gay
1208 01:25:29,603 01:25:34,774 in his personal life, his social life and his sex life and so on. in his personal life, his social life and his sex life and so on.
1209 01:25:34,941 01:25:41,031 Again, I say the ninth circle of hell is reserved for hypocrites. Again, I say the ninth circle of hell is reserved for hypocrites.
1210 01:25:42,282 01:25:44,659 -You feel pretty good? -I feel great. -You feel pretty good? -I feel great.
1211 01:25:44,826 01:25:49,456 You were at death's door 6 months ago, 3 months ago? You were at death's door 6 months ago, 3 months ago?
1212 01:25:49,622 01:25:53,543 I was shaving one morning and I felt a little bump. I was shaving one morning and I felt a little bump.
1213 01:25:53,710 01:25:57,630 I called the doctor he said, 'Come in,' and they did a biopsy', I called the doctor he said, 'Come in,' and they did a biopsy',
1214 01:25:57,797 01:26:02,218 and they found I had liver cancer, which spreads and they found I had liver cancer, which spreads
1215 01:26:04,512 01:26:06,180 in strange directions. in strange directions.
1216 01:26:06,347 01:26:11,185 I was treated for 3 and a half weeks at the National Institute of Health. I was treated for 3 and a half weeks at the National Institute of Health.
1217 01:26:13,646 01:26:17,608 He told me he was in an experimental program for liver cancer. He told me he was in an experimental program for liver cancer.
1218 01:26:17,775 01:26:21,154 I think they did not have an experimental program for liver cancer. I think they did not have an experimental program for liver cancer.
1219 01:26:21,320 01:26:23,489 It was trying AZT and other drugs for AIDs. It was trying AZT and other drugs for AIDs.
1220 01:26:23,656 01:26:26,117 Health officials will announce today whether an anti-aids drug Health officials will announce today whether an anti-aids drug
1221 01:26:26,284 01:26:28,953 is safe enough for widespread use against the disease. is safe enough for widespread use against the disease.
1222 01:26:29,120 01:26:34,292 The drug AZT has been tested on 140 aids patients around the country. The drug AZT has been tested on 140 aids patients around the country.
1223 01:26:34,458 01:26:38,629 While AZT does not cure the disease, it does reduce some of its symptoms. While AZT does not cure the disease, it does reduce some of its symptoms.
1224 01:26:38,796 01:26:41,132 Did you get that radical treatment at NIH Did you get that radical treatment at NIH
1225 01:26:41,298 01:26:44,051 that that Doctor, Rosenberg I believe, is now doing? that that Doctor, Rosenberg I believe, is now doing?
1226 01:26:44,218 01:26:46,011 -No. -You did not undergo that? -No. -You did not undergo that?
1227 01:26:46,178 01:26:47,888 No. I did not undergo that. No. I did not undergo that.
1228 01:26:50,808 01:26:52,810 -You scored! -Impressively! -You scored! -Impressively!
1229 01:26:52,977 01:26:55,646 There may be 30 people in the whole country getting this drug? There may be 30 people in the whole country getting this drug?
1230 01:26:55,813 01:27:00,234 -Now there are 31. -There are 100 000 people who need it. -Now there are 31. -There are 100 000 people who need it.
1231 01:27:09,284 01:27:12,329 He spent a lot of time here when he had AIDs. He spent a lot of time here when he had AIDs.
1232 01:27:12,496 01:27:16,708 That's when I would see his poor, diminished body, That's when I would see his poor, diminished body,
1233 01:27:16,875 01:27:18,460 'cause I lost a lot of friends too. 'cause I lost a lot of friends too.
1234 01:27:22,589 01:27:26,468 The town was so struck by AIDs, three quarters of my friends died. The town was so struck by AIDs, three quarters of my friends died.
1235 01:27:28,595 01:27:31,640 He was one of the whole town that was dying basically. He was one of the whole town that was dying basically.
1236 01:27:34,643 01:27:38,647 I wonder what Roy thought about the fact that he got AIDs. I wonder what Roy thought about the fact that he got AIDs.
1237 01:27:40,315 01:27:44,653 Those that escaped it, and those that didn't, but not Roy Cohn. Those that escaped it, and those that didn't, but not Roy Cohn.
1238 01:27:46,029 01:27:47,822 He shouldn't have gotten AIDs. He shouldn't have gotten AIDs.
1239 01:27:49,032 01:27:50,408 Right? Right?
1240 01:27:51,785 01:27:53,161 I felt sorry for him. I felt sorry for him.
1241 01:27:55,038 01:27:57,832 Doesn't mean I liked him or approved what he did, Doesn't mean I liked him or approved what he did,
1242 01:27:57,999 01:28:01,044 but I felt sorry for him as an individual. but I felt sorry for him as an individual.
1243 01:28:01,211 01:28:03,880 He didn't hide in that corner. It was right over there. He didn't hide in that corner. It was right over there.
1244 01:28:04,047 01:28:07,550 But he didn't want to be out there, But he didn't want to be out there,
1245 01:28:07,717 01:28:12,263 he wanted to show the poor kid he was with that he did have a life here. he wanted to show the poor kid he was with that he did have a life here.
1246 01:28:12,430 01:28:13,848 And he certainly couldn't take him dancing, And he certainly couldn't take him dancing,
1247 01:28:14,015 01:28:16,601 he was at the point where he couldn't walk, never mind dance. he was at the point where he couldn't walk, never mind dance.
1248 01:28:18,519 01:28:20,897 He was gay, and he was sick, He was gay, and he was sick,
1249 01:28:21,064 01:28:24,067 and he's got this child with him that he's infecting. and he's got this child with him that he's infecting.
1250 01:28:25,151 01:28:27,528 This really is sick. This really is sick.
1251 01:28:28,988 01:28:33,034 I was looking at a broken man, and it was everything he didn't want to be. I was looking at a broken man, and it was everything he didn't want to be.
1252 01:28:37,371 01:28:41,459 -Do you have AIDs? -No. That's easy to answer. -Do you have AIDs? -No. That's easy to answer.
1253 01:28:46,505 01:28:49,050 I'm going, Ethel. I'm going, Ethel.
1254 01:28:49,216 01:28:55,181 Finally done with this world at long, long last. Finally done with this world at long, long last.
1255 01:28:55,347 01:28:58,767 The Almighty parts the sea of death, The Almighty parts the sea of death,
1256 01:28:58,934 01:29:02,855 and lets his Roy boy cross over to Jordan and lets his Roy boy cross over to Jordan
1257 01:29:04,273 01:29:08,944 on dry land had still a lawyer. on dry land had still a lawyer.
1258 01:29:09,111 01:29:12,781 Don't count your chickens, Roy. It's over! Don't count your chickens, Roy. It's over!
1259 01:29:14,825 01:29:18,620 -Over? -I wanted the news to come from me. -Over? -I wanted the news to come from me.
1260 01:29:20,289 01:29:23,292 The panel ruled against you, Roy. The panel ruled against you, Roy.
1261 01:29:23,458 01:29:27,629 No, they only started meeting two days ago. No, they only started meeting two days ago.
1262 01:29:27,796 01:29:30,299 They recommended disbarment. They recommended disbarment.
1263 01:29:30,465 01:29:34,970 Why do you think they're after you? There are disbarment proceedings... Why do you think they're after you? There are disbarment proceedings...
1264 01:29:35,137 01:29:36,763 We're talking about two cases We're talking about two cases
1265 01:29:36,930 01:29:41,977 in neither one of which anyone was injured even slightly, except me. in neither one of which anyone was injured even slightly, except me.
1266 01:29:42,144 01:29:45,772 He borrowed 100,000 dollars from a client, Ivy Schlesinger, He borrowed 100,000 dollars from a client, Ivy Schlesinger,
1267 01:29:45,939 01:29:48,358 and then despite his numerous written promises, and then despite his numerous written promises,
1268 01:29:48,525 01:29:52,028 he failed to repay her that 100,000 dollars. he failed to repay her that 100,000 dollars.
1269 01:29:52,195 01:29:55,699 I had taken her case, handled it for two years. I had taken her case, handled it for two years.
1270 01:29:55,865 01:29:59,119 Never gotten a dime for a retainer. Never gotten a dime for a retainer.
1271 01:29:59,286 01:30:01,913 Until I had gotten her 3.5 million dollars. Until I had gotten her 3.5 million dollars.
1272 01:30:02,080 01:30:03,790 -But was it a loan? -Pardon me? -But was it a loan? -Pardon me?
1273 01:30:03,957 01:30:05,333 But was it a loan? But was it a loan?
1274 01:30:05,500 01:30:08,420 It's one of those words that's so difficult to define. It's one of those words that's so difficult to define.
1275 01:30:08,586 01:30:09,963 What is a loan? What is a loan?
1276 01:30:10,964 01:30:13,466 Anyone who knows me knows I don't plead. Anyone who knows me knows I don't plead.
1277 01:30:13,633 01:30:15,593 And I'm not pleading in this case. And I'm not pleading in this case.
1278 01:30:15,760 01:30:19,847 He's fighting for his life, and on some level more importantly his reputation. He's fighting for his life, and on some level more importantly his reputation.
1279 01:30:21,849 01:30:27,522 He probably cried more over the disbarment than the AIDs diagnosis. He probably cried more over the disbarment than the AIDs diagnosis.
1280 01:30:27,689 01:30:29,691 That's how important it was to him. That's how important it was to him.
1281 01:30:30,817 01:30:34,445 In this last interview, I show up in Florida and I was taken aback, In this last interview, I show up in Florida and I was taken aback,
1282 01:30:34,612 01:30:38,282 because I hadn't seen in him in about a year and he was extremely frail. because I hadn't seen in him in about a year and he was extremely frail.
1283 01:30:39,492 01:30:42,078 He had lost a lot of weight, he had to be helped into a chair, He had lost a lot of weight, he had to be helped into a chair,
1284 01:30:42,245 01:30:45,373 his clothes were baggy, but he was game. his clothes were baggy, but he was game.
1285 01:30:45,540 01:30:47,583 He wanted to get stuff off of his chest He wanted to get stuff off of his chest
1286 01:30:47,750 01:30:51,629 and we talked for an hour or so in this mansion that was, and we talked for an hour or so in this mansion that was,
1287 01:30:51,796 01:30:53,381 I don't even remember whose it was, I don't even remember whose it was,
1288 01:30:53,547 01:30:55,466 but it was this beautiful mansion on Worth Avenue, but it was this beautiful mansion on Worth Avenue,
1289 01:30:55,633 01:30:57,343 and then we went out to dinner. and then we went out to dinner.
1290 01:30:57,510 01:31:02,389 And I asked him, what do you think about now, what do you dream about, And I asked him, what do you think about now, what do you dream about,
1291 01:31:02,556 01:31:06,143 and he said, I dream about death, and I think about my funeral. and he said, I dream about death, and I think about my funeral.
1292 01:31:07,436 01:31:10,689 My guess is that it hasn't been very pleasant for you at all My guess is that it hasn't been very pleasant for you at all
1293 01:31:10,856 01:31:13,192 reading these reports and watching everybody. reading these reports and watching everybody.
1294 01:31:13,359 01:31:16,779 The tabloids in New York are calling it a "Death Bed Battle". The tabloids in New York are calling it a "Death Bed Battle".
1295 01:31:17,905 01:31:21,492 I'll tell you how I've felt. I have felt as though I died. I'll tell you how I've felt. I have felt as though I died.
1296 01:31:22,951 01:31:27,706 And then I have been present at my own memorial service, And then I have been present at my own memorial service,
1297 01:31:27,873 01:31:30,834 noted who was there and who was not there, noted who was there and who was not there,
1298 01:31:31,001 01:31:33,670 got the word on who said what, you know like: got the word on who said what, you know like:
1299 01:31:33,837 01:31:36,423 good, the S.O.B. isn't around anymore good, the S.O.B. isn't around anymore
1300 01:31:36,590 01:31:39,134 or what a shame, he was a tough fighter, or what a shame, he was a tough fighter,
1301 01:31:39,301 01:31:41,011 but he was really a good guy. but he was really a good guy.
1302 01:31:42,054 01:31:43,972 You actually went through all of this in your mind? You actually went through all of this in your mind?
1303 01:31:44,139 01:31:45,599 All of it, everything! All of it, everything!
1304 01:31:56,526 01:31:59,237 You have to make a very special wish. You have to make a very special wish.
1305 01:31:59,404 01:32:02,073 Did he feel that people were abandoning him? Did he feel that people were abandoning him?
1306 01:32:02,240 01:32:06,870 I'm not sure that he would ever show that side of him. I'm not sure that he would ever show that side of him.
1307 01:32:08,455 01:32:12,334 But there are some of us who don't abandon friends. But there are some of us who don't abandon friends.
1308 01:32:12,500 01:32:13,877 No matter what. No matter what.
1309 01:32:15,295 01:32:20,175 Donald was plugged in. And I'm sure he had heard that Roy had AIDs. Donald was plugged in. And I'm sure he had heard that Roy had AIDs.
1310 01:32:20,341 01:32:23,803 When he's dying, Trump pulls away. And it hurt Roy. When he's dying, Trump pulls away. And it hurt Roy.
1311 01:32:25,013 01:32:27,557 He felt like he had done a lot to promote, He felt like he had done a lot to promote,
1312 01:32:27,724 01:32:30,143 to help bring Donald Trump along. to help bring Donald Trump along.
1313 01:32:30,310 01:32:32,895 Ladies and gentlemen, please join me in a salute Ladies and gentlemen, please join me in a salute
1314 01:32:33,062 01:32:35,732 to a winner and friend: Mr. Donald Trump. to a winner and friend: Mr. Donald Trump.
1315 01:32:39,861 01:32:45,241 Thank you. I would like to introduce my family: my wife, Ivana; my father, Fred; Thank you. I would like to introduce my family: my wife, Ivana; my father, Fred;
1316 01:32:45,408 01:32:48,494 my sister, the Judge, thanks to the president. my sister, the Judge, thanks to the president.
1317 01:32:50,663 01:32:52,623 It was a wrenching thing to watch. It was a wrenching thing to watch.
1318 01:32:55,585 01:33:00,631 But a lot of Roy's so-called friends blew him off after he got sick. But a lot of Roy's so-called friends blew him off after he got sick.
1319 01:33:04,969 01:33:07,555 Roy Cohn, the unorthodox and colorful lawyer Roy Cohn, the unorthodox and colorful lawyer
1320 01:33:07,722 01:33:10,850 who may have made more prominent enemies and more prominent friends who may have made more prominent enemies and more prominent friends
1321 01:33:11,016 01:33:13,185 than any American of his time, is dead. than any American of his time, is dead.
1322 01:33:13,352 01:33:15,479 Cohn died earlier this morning of a heart attack. Cohn died earlier this morning of a heart attack.
1323 01:33:15,646 01:33:18,649 The virus HTLV3, which is believed to cause AIDs, The virus HTLV3, which is believed to cause AIDs,
1324 01:33:18,816 01:33:21,360 was listed as a secondary cause of death. was listed as a secondary cause of death.
1325 01:33:39,711 01:33:42,130 How do you want to be remembered? How do you want to be remembered?
1326 01:33:42,297 01:33:44,007 I have no choice. I have no choice.
1327 01:33:44,174 01:33:47,261 I know how I am going to be Joe McCarthy's Chief Counsel I know how I am going to be Joe McCarthy's Chief Counsel
1328 01:33:47,427 01:33:48,845 for the rest of my life, for the rest of my life,
1329 01:33:49,012 01:33:52,099 no matter what else good or bad I should ever do. no matter what else good or bad I should ever do.
1330 01:33:56,269 01:33:59,689 If you could turn back the clock to 1953 or 4... If you could turn back the clock to 1953 or 4...
1331 01:33:59,856 01:34:02,025 -Would you do anything differently? -Sure. -Would you do anything differently? -Sure.
1332 01:34:02,192 01:34:05,904 Who, 25, 30 years later wouldn't do something differently? Who, 25, 30 years later wouldn't do something differently?
1333 01:34:06,071 01:34:08,615 Do you think you were too abrasive as some people say? Do you think you were too abrasive as some people say?
1334 01:34:08,782 01:34:11,534 Sure. But I'm not sure Sure. But I'm not sure
1335 01:34:11,701 01:34:15,622 if I haven't been too aggressive if I could've gotten any results. if I haven't been too aggressive if I could've gotten any results.
1336 01:34:15,789 01:34:18,625 What do you say to people who say you ruined people's lives? What do you say to people who say you ruined people's lives?
1337 01:34:18,792 01:34:21,920 I say name one. I say name one.
1338 01:34:22,087 01:34:24,380 Because I know what the truth is and they don't. Because I know what the truth is and they don't.