1 00:00:12,552 --> 00:00:15,319 'The novelist Aldous Huxley once wrote 2 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:17,629 'that most human beings behave as though 3 00:00:17,638 --> 00:00:21,750 'death were no more than an unfounded rumour. 4 00:00:25,476 --> 00:00:30,150 'But what happens when you realise the rumour is true?' 5 00:00:31,743 --> 00:00:33,410 'Let's face it, none of us, 6 00:00:33,419 --> 00:00:36,840 'until it hits us in the face, think we're going to die. 7 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:39,743 'I can still sort of picture the consultant's room. 8 00:00:39,781 --> 00:00:42,467 'He said, "Well, I've got some bad news for you. 9 00:00:42,486 --> 00:00:45,880 '"We think you've got motor neurone disease."' 10 00:00:46,130 --> 00:00:50,000 'As we film this, Richard Chell has only months to live. 11 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:53,359 'His comfort lies in his religious faith. 12 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:57,360 'For him, death is not the end.' 13 00:00:57,690 --> 00:00:59,936 Death, to me, the actual process of dying, 14 00:01:00,056 --> 00:01:01,538 is not something I'm scared of... 15 00:01:01,561 --> 00:01:03,800 it's going through a door into another room. 16 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:05,199 What do you mean by that? 17 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:07,910 I'm a Christian and therefore I do believe in a life after death. 18 00:01:08,426 --> 00:01:12,240 I do believe that this life is just part of a process, 19 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:14,437 and that there's another part of that process to complete. 20 00:01:14,871 --> 00:01:18,559 I know very well your feelings about on religion and the rest of it. 21 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:20,279 But I would say 22 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:22,719 having a view that is finite 23 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:25,017 is a bit like having half a meal. 24 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:27,653 It will leave you hungry at the end of the day. 25 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:29,999 But, of course, the existence of hunger 26 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:32,200 doesn't mean that there's food. 27 00:01:32,450 --> 00:01:34,353 No, but it means that there's a need. 28 00:01:34,361 --> 00:01:36,839 And I would argue that there is a food. 29 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:39,120 If you faced a situation where, 30 00:01:39,437 --> 00:01:41,159 like myself, say, you were suddenly saying, 31 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:44,796 "Well, look. Death is fairly close and you're going to die." 32 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:48,039 Do you think you would feel any differently? 33 00:01:48,545 --> 00:01:51,528 Or are you clear in your own mind, if that was the situation, 34 00:01:51,855 --> 00:01:54,390 "I know exactly how I'd respond and exactly how I'd feel"? 35 00:01:59,032 --> 00:02:00,769 'It is a fair question. 36 00:02:01,119 --> 00:02:04,670 'I follow reason and I don't believe in God. 37 00:02:06,133 --> 00:02:09,680 'But this series is not about whether God exists or not. 38 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:12,840 'It's about a more difficult problem - 39 00:02:13,686 --> 00:02:16,960 'what, if anything, can take God's place? 40 00:02:18,661 --> 00:02:21,518 'Religion has shaped our understanding of life 41 00:02:21,533 --> 00:02:23,710 'for thousands of years. 42 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:26,880 'Ideas of the soul, 43 00:02:28,105 --> 00:02:29,881 'sin, 44 00:02:30,849 --> 00:02:33,639 'and the afterlife are hard to shake off, 45 00:02:33,640 --> 00:02:36,310 'even for non-religious people like me. 46 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:40,763 'As more and more of us realise there is no God, 47 00:02:40,816 --> 00:02:44,790 'what happens as we leave religion behind?' 48 00:02:46,146 --> 00:02:48,720 I have to believe there's a plan, 49 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:51,639 and that God is going to accomplish something through this. 50 00:02:51,770 --> 00:02:54,599 I suppose Jesus is an unpaid babysitter. 51 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:56,919 It's like, "If I'm not watching you, Jesus is." 52 00:02:57,457 --> 00:03:00,920 So do you think that we, in the West, are too materialistic? 53 00:03:01,210 --> 00:03:02,005 I think so. 54 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:05,520 'In this film, Death, 55 00:03:06,658 --> 00:03:09,399 'religion has traditionally been thought to bring comfort 56 00:03:09,519 --> 00:03:11,191 'at the end of life. 57 00:03:12,170 --> 00:03:14,430 'But does it really? 58 00:03:16,174 --> 00:03:19,950 'What can science and reason tell us?' 59 00:03:22,068 --> 00:03:25,590 How does someone like me, who has no religion, face death? 60 00:03:49,918 --> 00:03:52,680 'Varanasi, India - 61 00:03:52,930 --> 00:03:55,910 'one of the oldest cities in the world. 62 00:03:59,261 --> 00:04:02,760 'It has a macabre speciality. 63 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:06,138 'Its main business is the industry of death. 64 00:04:12,736 --> 00:04:16,321 'Every year, a million Hindu pilgrims visit Varanasi, 65 00:04:16,322 --> 00:04:18,798 'dragging with them some 40,000 corpses 66 00:04:19,403 --> 00:04:22,840 'to be cremated on the banks of the Ganges.' 67 00:04:29,543 --> 00:04:33,262 This the holiest place in the whole of Hinduism. 68 00:04:33,382 --> 00:04:37,333 This is the place where Hindus aspire to come to die, 69 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:41,560 to escape from the cycle of birth and death and rebirth. 70 00:04:42,208 --> 00:04:43,770 It is the most amazing scene. 71 00:04:43,785 --> 00:04:47,662 It's probably been going on like this for centuries, even millennia. 72 00:04:48,705 --> 00:04:51,070 It looks as though there are ashes down here 73 00:04:51,517 --> 00:04:53,870 in the river, swirling around. 74 00:05:04,027 --> 00:05:07,159 'As an atheist for whom death is a full stop, 75 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:10,919 'I suppose I shouldn't feel sentimental about the carcasses. 76 00:05:11,039 --> 00:05:14,350 'They are ex-people who have ceased to be. 77 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:28,334 'Yet I find something a little bit shocking here. 78 00:05:28,568 --> 00:05:30,707 'The partially-burnt corpses... 79 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:35,004 '..the locals casually searching 80 00:05:35,027 --> 00:05:38,480 'for precious metals in the burnt remains... 81 00:05:41,359 --> 00:05:44,640 '..and the rejected dead.' 82 00:05:48,706 --> 00:05:51,706 Although this is clearly steeped in religion, 83 00:05:52,003 --> 00:05:56,710 there's a surprising lack of evident reverence or solemnity. 84 00:05:57,214 --> 00:05:59,744 The people standing around the funeral pyres 85 00:05:59,759 --> 00:06:03,630 are doing the job of work in a pretty matter-of-fact way. 86 00:06:05,933 --> 00:06:10,000 'But there is a kind of logic behind the apparent lack of reverence. 87 00:06:12,761 --> 00:06:17,040 'In this religious tradition, the flesh is no longer important. 88 00:06:17,290 --> 00:06:21,578 'What matters here is releasing the spirit or soul. 89 00:06:25,350 --> 00:06:28,640 'This is where religion plays its strongest card. 90 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:32,760 'The body may not live for ever but the soul does. 91 00:06:35,280 --> 00:06:38,172 'On the face of it, it's a comforting idea. 92 00:06:38,497 --> 00:06:41,342 'And a challenge for an atheist like me. 93 00:06:53,003 --> 00:06:56,112 'If you want to hear the challenge starkly expressed, 94 00:06:56,320 --> 00:07:00,320 'you can go to a place like this in Kansas City.' 95 00:07:02,712 --> 00:07:04,592 Hello, I'm Richard. 96 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:09,399 'This Catholic hospice, Alexandra's House, 97 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:13,400 'is for babies who die within hours of birth.' 98 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:16,289 These are clearly fatal disorders. 99 00:07:16,317 --> 00:07:18,519 Babies perhaps with anencephaly, 100 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:21,639 Potter's Syndrome, where they have no kidneys, 101 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:23,890 severe genetic heart disease. 102 00:07:24,010 --> 00:07:25,479 So, they're all going to die. 103 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:26,659 They're all going to die. 104 00:07:26,660 --> 00:07:28,959 And so, the normal recommendation by the medical profession 105 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:31,319 - ..would be probably be an abortion at that point, would it? - Yes. 106 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:36,320 This may, you know, be hard for some people to see. 107 00:07:36,570 --> 00:07:39,039 These are many of our babies for whom we've cared, 108 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:42,279 some who have lived here, but all of them that we've cared for. 109 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:46,280 And so this is leading us up to where the families stay. 110 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:49,919 This is where the parents stay. 111 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:52,319 'Over the last 11 years, Patti Lewis 112 00:07:52,548 --> 00:07:56,039 'has helped the families of over 500 babies 113 00:07:56,159 --> 00:07:59,080 'who have died within these walls.' 114 00:07:59,475 --> 00:08:02,720 Do you think their mothers are ever going to meet their babies again? 115 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:04,199 Yes. 116 00:08:04,538 --> 00:08:05,879 I think the mothers believe that, too, 117 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:09,880 and the fathers and the siblings. 118 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:16,519 'I do sympathise with the desire to meet again 119 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:18,799 'somebody whom you've known and loved. 120 00:08:18,919 --> 00:08:20,519 'But a newborn baby? 121 00:08:21,468 --> 00:08:23,799 'I feel very sorry for these parents, 122 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:26,199 'but still, reality may be raw. 123 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:28,656 'But we have to face it. 124 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:32,390 The baby was born on Saturday, 125 00:08:33,091 --> 00:08:34,448 7/9/11. 126 00:08:34,610 --> 00:08:36,319 Which was yesterday. 127 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:37,230 Yeah. 128 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:40,999 And she came into the world at 6pm 129 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:42,959 and she lived 30 minutes. 130 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:46,960 And those 30 minutes seemed so short and so precious. 131 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:50,870 We held her and loved her and... 132 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:55,520 got to give her a little bath and put her in her christening outfit. 133 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:57,920 We baptised her. 134 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:02,229 The family was there with us, and it was a very... 135 00:09:02,670 --> 00:09:04,050 precious time. 136 00:09:04,667 --> 00:09:07,093 Can you talk us through when you first found out 137 00:09:07,213 --> 00:09:10,810 that there was a problem with the baby? 138 00:09:11,434 --> 00:09:15,855 We found out in January that we were expecting and it would be our third. 139 00:09:16,114 --> 00:09:18,439 And we were overjoyed. And we go in for our ultrasound 140 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:20,455 and find out if it was a boy or girl. 141 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:22,845 She did the scan and told us there was no kidneys. 142 00:09:22,860 --> 00:09:24,215 No kidneys? Right. 143 00:09:24,505 --> 00:09:27,920 That was the first time that we had heard that diagnosis. 144 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:30,999 And she called it a "lethal pregnancy". 145 00:09:31,119 --> 00:09:33,759 So, that's when you sort of went into shock, is it? 146 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:35,159 More so, yes. 147 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:39,310 Did it occur to you that the total sum of suffering would be 148 00:09:39,674 --> 00:09:43,609 much less if you drew a line under it then and restarted you life? 149 00:09:43,650 --> 00:09:45,951 You've got to restart your life now. 150 00:09:46,680 --> 00:09:50,680 Why did you decide to go on for the remaining months? 151 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:55,440 Well, there's hope in everything and God can do great things. 152 00:09:55,452 --> 00:09:57,486 So, you were hoping for a miracle? 153 00:09:57,517 --> 00:09:59,479 Hoping for a miracle, but if it wasn't, 154 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:02,799 it was still going to be precious and it's a baby and it's a life. 155 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:06,800 It's not my decision to terminate that. It's not my choice. 156 00:10:08,124 --> 00:10:12,337 I carried it and loved it and can feel it move every single day and... 157 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:17,040 And also the 30 minutes or so that we got to spend with her was worth, 158 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:21,119 I didn't have any of the pain, but I would say it was worth 159 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:24,919 all of the trial of getting to where we were. 160 00:10:25,170 --> 00:10:27,315 And not only did we get to spend 30 minutes with her 161 00:10:27,435 --> 00:10:29,879 we got to be with her for, like, 12 hours, 162 00:10:29,999 --> 00:10:33,880 she wasn't with us spiritually, but we got to hold her. 163 00:10:34,132 --> 00:10:35,799 And you took photographs? 164 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:37,719 Oh, yes. 165 00:10:37,839 --> 00:10:40,159 We have one that we have printed off. 166 00:10:41,148 --> 00:10:43,119 She was beautiful, she was perfect and everything... 167 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:46,079 She looked just like her mom even down to her fingernails. 168 00:10:46,199 --> 00:10:47,788 Yes, beautiful. 169 00:10:48,879 --> 00:10:51,319 I wouldn't have changed it for anything. 170 00:10:51,439 --> 00:10:53,959 Do you think you will ever meet the baby? 171 00:10:54,079 --> 00:10:55,829 Oh, of course!... 172 00:10:56,858 --> 00:10:58,130 .. there is great hope in that. 173 00:10:58,138 --> 00:11:01,390 We will meet the baby, it's in heaven with God. 174 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:11,079 'I feel for Runae and Lee. 175 00:11:11,439 --> 00:11:13,879 'They sincerely think they are gaining reassurance 176 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:15,560 'from their faith. 177 00:11:21,135 --> 00:11:24,388 'So now, I need to understand how this relationship 178 00:11:24,403 --> 00:11:28,590 between death and religion has evolved to be so strong. 179 00:11:44,113 --> 00:11:46,247 Religion denies death is real. 180 00:11:47,420 --> 00:11:50,787 It sets up, instead, the forbidding prospect of eternity 181 00:11:51,098 --> 00:11:53,149 either in heaven, or worse, in hell. 182 00:11:54,538 --> 00:11:58,257 For me, what's frightening is not death itself but eternity, 183 00:11:58,453 --> 00:12:00,067 whether you're there or not. 184 00:12:00,524 --> 00:12:04,554 Yet people still reach instinctively for religion and its rituals 185 00:12:04,592 --> 00:12:06,316 when it comes to the end. 186 00:12:06,436 --> 00:12:07,463 Why? 187 00:12:10,861 --> 00:12:13,387 It's a very, very artificial situation. 188 00:12:13,507 --> 00:12:15,936 We see the person lying down. 189 00:12:16,454 --> 00:12:18,579 Unless you're intimately acquainted with someone, 190 00:12:18,593 --> 00:12:20,825 you don't really see them lying down 191 00:12:20,848 --> 00:12:23,027 and they may well be dressed in their own clothes 192 00:12:23,028 --> 00:12:25,286 lying down with their eyes closed 193 00:12:25,310 --> 00:12:28,987 in an artificial situation that they're inside a wooden box. 194 00:12:28,988 --> 00:12:32,661 Now, all of these things bring a surrealism, 195 00:12:32,781 --> 00:12:36,423 but despite that, people are very, very focused 196 00:12:36,543 --> 00:12:41,126 on the fact that the last physical connection they have with that person 197 00:12:41,246 --> 00:12:44,560 is lying in that coffin, and that's what they're saying farewell to. 198 00:12:47,196 --> 00:12:51,739 So why do people go on with these strange rituals? 199 00:12:53,323 --> 00:12:58,010 It's the business of walking away from the funeral and feeling, 200 00:12:58,130 --> 00:13:01,949 "That was well done, we liked what they've done for us 201 00:13:02,069 --> 00:13:06,383 "and we feel that we laid someone we cared about very deeply to rest 202 00:13:06,503 --> 00:13:08,867 "in a very dignified and meaningful way." 203 00:13:08,868 --> 00:13:13,467 And even if the beautiful oak coffin is then burned or buried, 204 00:13:13,587 --> 00:13:16,587 somehow you feel you've given the person a good send-off. 205 00:13:16,707 --> 00:13:18,052 Very much so. 206 00:13:24,909 --> 00:13:27,904 More and more of us have no faith in God 207 00:13:27,950 --> 00:13:30,693 but we cling to the rituals. 208 00:13:31,965 --> 00:13:34,998 Even in secular woodland burial sites, 209 00:13:35,188 --> 00:13:39,188 we find death brings illogical superstition. 210 00:13:41,020 --> 00:13:43,709 It is fascinating to see people... 211 00:13:43,829 --> 00:13:46,874 thinking of themselves as part of this place. 212 00:13:47,125 --> 00:13:50,267 They're anticipating their postmortem identity. 213 00:13:50,615 --> 00:13:52,702 So that when people talk about, 214 00:13:52,749 --> 00:13:55,424 as they can in this place, facing any direction, 215 00:13:55,544 --> 00:13:57,827 so some want to look up the hill, some want to look down the hill, 216 00:13:58,226 --> 00:14:00,054 some want to look towards the sun, 217 00:14:00,070 --> 00:14:03,183 they are buried in different spatial directions. 218 00:14:04,263 --> 00:14:06,884 'Douglas Davies is an anthropologist 219 00:14:06,892 --> 00:14:10,228 'fascinated by the fuss and trappings surrounding death.' 220 00:14:11,291 --> 00:14:12,921 Do you think a part of what's going on 221 00:14:12,929 --> 00:14:16,010 is a reluctance to believe that the dead person is really dead? 222 00:14:16,039 --> 00:14:19,978 Yes. One lady, her father used to farm around here. 223 00:14:20,367 --> 00:14:23,648 And so he's been buried looking up towards the hill, 224 00:14:24,113 --> 00:14:26,510 cos he used to shoot rabbits up there and the like, 225 00:14:26,630 --> 00:14:29,585 and to her, this is dreadfully important because... 226 00:14:29,705 --> 00:14:33,471 the relatives, too, are thinking about their dead after they've died. 227 00:14:33,487 --> 00:14:34,280 Yes. 228 00:14:35,348 --> 00:14:38,950 'I find I'm not immune to these notions.' 229 00:14:39,308 --> 00:14:43,721 There's a place in Cornwall where my mother's family come from 230 00:14:43,841 --> 00:14:47,546 and where we used to spend childhood holidays called Dollar Cove. 231 00:14:47,666 --> 00:14:50,942 And I think I'm right in saying there's a little tiny church 232 00:14:51,849 --> 00:14:55,057 more or less on the beach, more or less built in the sand, 233 00:14:55,177 --> 00:14:57,747 and I've sometimes fantasised about being buried there 234 00:14:57,748 --> 00:15:00,987 somehow with the sea crashing in and the tide coming in and out. 235 00:15:01,107 --> 00:15:04,468 What is the allure that would be there for you 236 00:15:04,484 --> 00:15:05,896 in a location for your body? 237 00:15:05,911 --> 00:15:08,936 Yeah. It's totally illogical. It's pure sentimentality. 238 00:15:09,743 --> 00:15:13,400 I suppose there's no rational defence for it whatever. 239 00:15:13,439 --> 00:15:14,525 One should say, 240 00:15:14,548 --> 00:15:17,459 "Just stick me in a dustbin bag and throw me away." 241 00:15:17,482 --> 00:15:18,679 But you don't want to be in a dustbin bag? 242 00:15:18,687 --> 00:15:20,866 No, that's right, and it is pure sentiment. 243 00:15:20,881 --> 00:15:22,661 I mean, we are sentimental animals... 244 00:15:22,669 --> 00:15:23,857 Yes, absolutely. 245 00:15:23,873 --> 00:15:25,783 ..as well as social animals. 246 00:15:28,740 --> 00:15:31,113 So why do even atheists like me 247 00:15:31,144 --> 00:15:33,952 carry around this sentimental baggage? 248 00:15:38,546 --> 00:15:42,383 When did these illogical thoughts first develop? 249 00:15:47,596 --> 00:15:50,072 As a child, I don't think I worried about 250 00:15:50,117 --> 00:15:51,527 God looking down at me 251 00:15:51,542 --> 00:15:52,981 and seeing what I was doing. 252 00:15:53,012 --> 00:15:54,223 I worried about ancestors. 253 00:15:54,236 --> 00:15:56,987 I worried about my great uncles and great aunts 254 00:15:56,988 --> 00:16:00,988 looking down from heaven and seeing everything that I did. 255 00:16:01,594 --> 00:16:05,876 Childish, perhaps, but don't let's be too quick to dismiss it. 256 00:16:06,948 --> 00:16:08,347 Hello, Iggy. Whoops. 257 00:16:08,348 --> 00:16:09,347 CHILD LAUGHS 258 00:16:09,467 --> 00:16:11,147 He doesn't want to come out and play. 259 00:16:11,538 --> 00:16:13,387 (OK, OK, there we go...) 260 00:16:13,507 --> 00:16:15,722 From an early age, we start to believe 261 00:16:15,883 --> 00:16:18,800 that there's more to us than just our physical bodies, 262 00:16:19,908 --> 00:16:22,070 as this experiment reveals. 263 00:16:22,435 --> 00:16:24,507 Shall we give him a little tickle? 264 00:16:24,905 --> 00:16:27,070 He's very sweet, isn't he? 265 00:16:27,618 --> 00:16:29,461 This is a fake machine 266 00:16:29,926 --> 00:16:33,433 to fool children into thinking live beings can be duplicated. 267 00:16:33,553 --> 00:16:34,743 MACHINE BUZZES 268 00:16:36,673 --> 00:16:37,960 There's Iggy. 269 00:16:40,588 --> 00:16:42,103 And there's Iggy. 270 00:16:43,964 --> 00:16:46,507 As scientists, we seem to be committed to the view 271 00:16:46,508 --> 00:16:49,787 that if you could take a person and make an exact copy, 272 00:16:49,788 --> 00:16:51,547 molecule by molecule, 273 00:16:51,882 --> 00:16:55,522 that copy would have exactly the same thoughts and memories, 274 00:16:55,575 --> 00:16:57,891 would be the same person. 275 00:16:58,196 --> 00:17:00,450 But intuition rebels. 276 00:17:00,570 --> 00:17:04,425 We seem to want to believe that there's some essence of ourselves, 277 00:17:04,441 --> 00:17:08,252 something that would not go across with all those molecules, 278 00:17:08,290 --> 00:17:12,549 something that a religious person might want to call a soul. 279 00:17:16,022 --> 00:17:19,885 This is an attempt to look at an old philosophical problem, 280 00:17:19,907 --> 00:17:22,507 which is, imagine if you could copy anything, 281 00:17:22,955 --> 00:17:26,618 and in these experiments, rather than getting children to imagine it, 282 00:17:27,508 --> 00:17:28,747 we produce a machine 283 00:17:28,867 --> 00:17:31,903 which looks as if it can duplicate and copy anything, 284 00:17:32,515 --> 00:17:35,063 a bit like a photocopier for objects. 285 00:17:36,708 --> 00:17:38,147 Now there's two. 286 00:17:38,148 --> 00:17:39,947 It made two. 287 00:17:39,948 --> 00:17:41,227 It made two. 288 00:17:41,347 --> 00:17:44,347 We've shown in previous studies they can believe it can copy toys 289 00:17:44,362 --> 00:17:47,987 very easily, but the question is, would they really extend that 290 00:17:47,988 --> 00:17:50,307 to something like a living thing, like a hamster? 291 00:17:50,758 --> 00:17:54,539 Shall we tell him your name? Do you want to whisper? 292 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:57,827 And so what copies over is the body of the hamster, 293 00:17:57,828 --> 00:18:00,627 the ideas of a hamster, the memories of the hamster? 294 00:18:01,138 --> 00:18:04,628 We believe the intuition is that the physical object can be copied, 295 00:18:04,748 --> 00:18:06,987 and therefore the physical body can be copied, 296 00:18:06,988 --> 00:18:10,107 but we're not so sure that children think the mind can be copied. 297 00:18:10,108 --> 00:18:12,875 Just like adults, they have this sense that maybe the mind 298 00:18:12,876 --> 00:18:14,316 is different to the physical body. 299 00:18:14,331 --> 00:18:17,942 The reason this is so interesting is because if you believe the mind 300 00:18:17,950 --> 00:18:19,855 is separate to the physical body, 301 00:18:19,975 --> 00:18:21,680 then it means if the body goes, 302 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:24,187 then maybe the mind can stay on and exist. 303 00:18:24,188 --> 00:18:28,676 And this allows for all sorts of notions of spirits and the soul, 304 00:18:28,689 --> 00:18:32,019 as being something entirely untethered to the physical world. 305 00:18:32,041 --> 00:18:34,547 Yes, disembodied ghosts after death 306 00:18:34,548 --> 00:18:38,223 or surviving death in other ways, the soul goes on. 307 00:18:39,908 --> 00:18:44,325 So these young children believe bodies can be copied but not minds. 308 00:18:44,356 --> 00:18:45,988 Shall we have a look? 309 00:18:46,108 --> 00:18:47,048 One... 310 00:18:48,788 --> 00:18:50,267 Two. Two. 311 00:18:51,193 --> 00:18:53,380 They are already thinking there's something 312 00:18:53,628 --> 00:18:56,130 in charge of each being that is unique. 313 00:18:56,250 --> 00:18:58,571 Something like a soul? 314 00:18:59,752 --> 00:19:01,547 Did this hamster see your picture? 315 00:19:01,548 --> 00:19:02,507 (Yes.) 316 00:19:02,508 --> 00:19:04,147 (Yes.) Does it know what your picture is? 317 00:19:04,267 --> 00:19:05,548 (No.) 318 00:19:05,803 --> 00:19:09,388 Does this hamster know your name? 319 00:19:09,699 --> 00:19:11,597 Does this hamster know your name? 320 00:19:11,717 --> 00:19:13,028 (No.) 321 00:19:13,928 --> 00:19:16,589 Evolutionary psychology suggests 322 00:19:16,612 --> 00:19:20,107 that we have evolved a sense of separate mind or soul 323 00:19:20,581 --> 00:19:23,042 because it's useful to us. 324 00:19:24,143 --> 00:19:26,520 Because the experience of being in control of your body 325 00:19:26,543 --> 00:19:29,935 is so pervasive, you just feel that you've made a decision, 326 00:19:29,950 --> 00:19:31,725 you'll have a cup of coffee, these things... 327 00:19:31,733 --> 00:19:33,937 you feel like you're driving this very complex machine. 328 00:19:33,945 --> 00:19:34,920 Yes, you certainly do. 329 00:19:34,943 --> 00:19:37,707 If you didn't feel that you wouldn't be very well adapted to the world. 330 00:19:37,708 --> 00:19:38,494 No, that's right. 331 00:19:38,517 --> 00:19:40,536 I mean, to be a fully functional animal, 332 00:19:40,567 --> 00:19:43,107 which is what our ancestors were, 333 00:19:43,769 --> 00:19:46,988 hunting and feeding and running and escaping from predators, 334 00:19:47,203 --> 00:19:50,947 you need to feel like a soul that's in control of the body. 335 00:20:02,784 --> 00:20:05,900 This is one reason why it's so hard to shake off 336 00:20:05,913 --> 00:20:08,294 the religious way of death. 337 00:20:08,748 --> 00:20:12,748 We are programmed to believe in something like a soul. 338 00:20:14,883 --> 00:20:17,810 Now, of course, I don't believe in a soul 339 00:20:17,930 --> 00:20:21,417 but I, too, have the feeling that there is some sort of essence 340 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:24,867 of Richard Dawkins that makes me who I am... 341 00:20:24,987 --> 00:20:28,703 ..that gives me my unique personal identity. 342 00:20:31,797 --> 00:20:33,907 'To understand more about this, 343 00:20:33,908 --> 00:20:36,957 I need to look at the role our memories play, 344 00:20:37,077 --> 00:20:39,347 with the person who's known me longest ? 345 00:20:39,796 --> 00:20:42,263 my mother. 346 00:20:43,651 --> 00:20:46,243 So what have we got here? We've got, um... 347 00:20:46,273 --> 00:20:47,423 Your first birthday party. 348 00:20:47,439 --> 00:20:49,027 First birthday party. Yes. 349 00:20:49,268 --> 00:20:51,219 Well, I've no memory of this at all. 350 00:20:51,798 --> 00:20:53,413 That's presumably me, is it? 351 00:20:53,603 --> 00:20:55,027 Yes, that's you. 352 00:20:55,147 --> 00:20:59,028 In a little dress that your granny sent out from England. 353 00:20:59,920 --> 00:21:04,183 'Our memories are hugely important to our sense of who we are.' 354 00:21:06,643 --> 00:21:08,067 That's Kilimanjaro. 355 00:21:08,535 --> 00:21:09,771 Oh, yes. 356 00:21:10,152 --> 00:21:12,827 You used to like saying words like Kilimanjaro. 357 00:21:13,116 --> 00:21:14,027 Oh, right. 358 00:21:15,287 --> 00:21:19,097 But our memories lull us into a false sense of certainty. 359 00:21:19,843 --> 00:21:23,343 They are fallible, riddled with errors. 360 00:21:24,706 --> 00:21:28,751 - Another early memory was being stung by a scorpion. - Yes. 361 00:21:28,788 --> 00:21:32,121 We were miles, absolutely miles from anywhere, 362 00:21:32,241 --> 00:21:36,508 and you suddenly jumped off your chair without your shoes on, 363 00:21:36,628 --> 00:21:38,907 which you weren't allowed to do, 364 00:21:39,241 --> 00:21:41,778 and stepped on a scorpion... 365 00:21:42,348 --> 00:21:44,503 ..and Ali, 366 00:21:44,747 --> 00:21:47,108 our African boy, 367 00:21:47,742 --> 00:21:50,738 rushed in and got your foot and... 368 00:21:50,858 --> 00:21:52,825 squeezed it and sucked it... 369 00:21:52,848 --> 00:21:54,799 - Gosh! Good for Ali. - ..sucked it for hours. 370 00:21:54,814 --> 00:21:56,787 - Yes. - Well, not hours but... 371 00:21:56,978 --> 00:22:00,975 And you were screaming. We had to hold you while he sucked your foot... 372 00:22:01,013 --> 00:22:04,387 Yes. I... My memory is slightly different. 373 00:22:04,388 --> 00:22:07,245 My memory is that I was walking along the floor 374 00:22:07,260 --> 00:22:10,764 - ..and I saw this creature walking across... - Yes. 375 00:22:10,779 --> 00:22:12,347 ..and I thought it was a lizard. 376 00:22:12,467 --> 00:22:13,387 Really? 377 00:22:13,388 --> 00:22:14,589 And I didn't step on it, 378 00:22:14,604 --> 00:22:18,347 I put my foot in the way of it to let it crawl over my foot. 379 00:22:18,644 --> 00:22:20,814 Well...you jumped off your chair... 380 00:22:20,829 --> 00:22:22,907 Mmm. I don't remember the pain. 381 00:22:23,298 --> 00:22:27,496 Don't you? Isn't that interesting? Cos that was the terrible bit. 382 00:22:29,004 --> 00:22:33,121 We think back to our first memory, our first big adventure, 383 00:22:33,241 --> 00:22:35,987 and it's almost as though there was a movie camera in our head 384 00:22:35,988 --> 00:22:37,867 recording every detail. 385 00:22:38,085 --> 00:22:40,822 But that's not the way it is. That's an illusion. 386 00:22:40,942 --> 00:22:44,854 What we're remembering is a memory of a memory of a memory, 387 00:22:44,974 --> 00:22:47,218 of perhaps the real thing. 388 00:22:47,675 --> 00:22:50,106 A man may wear a wrist watch when he's 20 389 00:22:50,113 --> 00:22:52,045 and the same watch when he's 50. 390 00:22:52,076 --> 00:22:55,192 It's the same watch but it's not the same man inside. 391 00:22:55,512 --> 00:22:59,622 Every atom in his body has changed, has turned over. 392 00:22:59,742 --> 00:23:02,467 I'm not the child I once was. 393 00:23:02,587 --> 00:23:05,583 The child I once was is dead. 394 00:23:10,578 --> 00:23:14,341 So the physical cells that once made me are long gone 395 00:23:14,764 --> 00:23:17,538 and my memories are more tenuous than I would wish. 396 00:23:19,808 --> 00:23:23,543 The connection between younger and older Richard Dawkins 397 00:23:23,663 --> 00:23:26,474 isn't as strong as I might like it to be. 398 00:23:28,379 --> 00:23:30,284 And I think this is why 399 00:23:30,291 --> 00:23:32,843 the religious idea of something permanent, 400 00:23:33,148 --> 00:23:35,639 the soul, is so plausible. 401 00:23:37,247 --> 00:23:41,263 Now I want to explore the reality of why we die. 402 00:23:57,137 --> 00:24:00,573 Religion still dominates our thinking about death. 403 00:24:01,591 --> 00:24:04,943 If we get rid of God, what's left? 404 00:24:07,041 --> 00:24:10,066 I'm on a voyage to tell you the extraordinary truth 405 00:24:10,089 --> 00:24:13,623 that science reveals about death. 406 00:24:19,031 --> 00:24:21,145 According to evolutionary science, 407 00:24:21,146 --> 00:24:24,065 death is not something to be overcome at all. 408 00:24:24,066 --> 00:24:26,823 It's a necessary part of the picture. 409 00:24:30,490 --> 00:24:32,280 I'm joining the scientists on board 410 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:36,346 Bangor University's research vessel on the Irish Sea. 411 00:24:36,366 --> 00:24:38,048 - Is that alive? - Yeah, yeah. 412 00:24:38,168 --> 00:24:39,106 So where do you put that? 413 00:24:39,122 --> 00:24:42,023 'They are studying the lifespan of a species of clam 414 00:24:42,143 --> 00:24:44,362 'called Arctica Islandica. 415 00:24:44,583 --> 00:24:46,252 They may look rather ordinary 416 00:24:46,410 --> 00:24:50,583 'but they have one attribute that is really quite amazing. 417 00:24:51,427 --> 00:24:55,679 'These clams are among the longest-living animals on Earth.' 418 00:24:59,357 --> 00:25:01,696 Save that one or not? 419 00:25:03,593 --> 00:25:05,303 The reason why we are so interested in this 420 00:25:05,423 --> 00:25:07,357 is that this is a very long-lived species. 421 00:25:07,415 --> 00:25:09,146 We can pull it up from the wild 422 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:13,343 and assign a year - almost to within one year - how old it is. 423 00:25:13,666 --> 00:25:16,899 Basically, the shell grows in incremental steps. 424 00:25:17,019 --> 00:25:18,503 Each ring is an annual ring, 425 00:25:18,623 --> 00:25:20,983 so the growth is very much like a tree. 426 00:25:21,210 --> 00:25:22,981 Can you guess from this one how old is it? 427 00:25:23,101 --> 00:25:24,899 There's a size growth curve. 428 00:25:24,921 --> 00:25:27,863 This is probably 80 to 150 years old. 429 00:25:27,983 --> 00:25:30,305 The oldest of them reach what sort of age? 430 00:25:30,306 --> 00:25:34,306 Around the UK, it's around about 220 years. 431 00:25:34,654 --> 00:25:36,466 Up in Iceland, in the far north, 432 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:39,691 they'll hit 350, 400, maybe even 500 years. 433 00:25:46,815 --> 00:25:50,281 Only recently, this research team found a clam that had lived 434 00:25:50,510 --> 00:25:53,489 for more than half a millennium. 435 00:25:56,259 --> 00:25:59,756 It's amazing to think that some of these clams that we're dredging up 436 00:25:59,763 --> 00:26:01,552 were born before Darwin, 437 00:26:01,904 --> 00:26:04,913 even before Elizabeth I. 438 00:26:06,376 --> 00:26:09,241 So, why do they live so long? 439 00:26:10,370 --> 00:26:13,785 Any evolutionary explanation of why aging happens 440 00:26:13,905 --> 00:26:15,371 has to do two things. 441 00:26:15,424 --> 00:26:17,847 It has to be able to explain 442 00:26:17,866 --> 00:26:20,451 why you see aging in many species. 443 00:26:20,485 --> 00:26:23,262 It also has to be able to explain 444 00:26:23,382 --> 00:26:25,986 why you see enormously long lifespans 445 00:26:26,029 --> 00:26:29,750 or possibly no aging in a very few species. 446 00:26:30,029 --> 00:26:33,165 And the clams, I think, may be an example of this. 447 00:26:33,173 --> 00:26:35,054 Because you've seen them and handled them for yourself. 448 00:26:35,174 --> 00:26:37,058 They have enormously thick shells. 449 00:26:37,246 --> 00:26:40,373 I don't think there are very many things down there 450 00:26:40,380 --> 00:26:43,262 that can actually bite through them. 451 00:26:43,291 --> 00:26:45,615 And so they can sit around 452 00:26:45,958 --> 00:26:49,068 and they can just carry on producing offspring 453 00:26:49,069 --> 00:26:51,608 once they've reached a certain size. 454 00:26:53,597 --> 00:26:56,690 These clams are continuing to pass on their genes 455 00:26:56,736 --> 00:27:01,856 to the next generation, even at 200 and 300 years old.' 456 00:27:03,021 --> 00:27:06,028 So, from the evolutionary point of view, it is not just that 457 00:27:06,029 --> 00:27:09,668 the individuals are well protected against being eaten. 458 00:27:09,788 --> 00:27:12,948 Because they're well-protected against being eaten, 459 00:27:12,949 --> 00:27:16,508 it's a good gamble to stay alive a long time, 460 00:27:16,509 --> 00:27:19,173 because you've got a good chance of reproducing later. 461 00:27:19,196 --> 00:27:21,779 Whereas something like a salmon... 462 00:27:22,198 --> 00:27:24,808 has a very poor chance of reproducing again, 463 00:27:24,823 --> 00:27:29,113 so it might as well throw everything it's got into one big gamble now. 464 00:27:29,586 --> 00:27:31,132 That's exactly it. 465 00:27:31,133 --> 00:27:33,908 There is no point in spending resources 466 00:27:33,909 --> 00:27:36,668 to make a body that will last 400 years 467 00:27:36,669 --> 00:27:39,657 if your chance of making it through the night is pretty slim. 468 00:27:48,465 --> 00:27:53,070 So, evolutionary science tells us a lot about ageing and death. 469 00:27:54,987 --> 00:27:58,630 The clams are able to reproduce when they are hundreds of years old, 470 00:27:59,247 --> 00:28:01,585 and so long as they are able to reproduce, 471 00:28:01,961 --> 00:28:04,658 their genes keep them alive. 472 00:28:05,968 --> 00:28:10,069 We need to see death from a gene's eye point of view. 473 00:28:13,045 --> 00:28:16,080 Our bodies are survival machines for genes. 474 00:28:17,002 --> 00:28:19,821 Once our genes have got us to reproductive age 475 00:28:19,836 --> 00:28:22,748 and copied themselves into a new generation, 476 00:28:22,749 --> 00:28:25,680 our bodies have less purpose. 477 00:28:25,909 --> 00:28:27,838 Time bombs inside us go off. 478 00:28:28,683 --> 00:28:30,138 We age. 479 00:28:30,161 --> 00:28:31,670 We die. 480 00:28:34,228 --> 00:28:38,906 So, rather than looking upon ageing as a wearing out of the body, 481 00:28:38,914 --> 00:28:43,829 perhaps we should see it as a side effect of how our genes work. 482 00:28:47,547 --> 00:28:52,004 Even extraordinary exceptions throw light on this truth. 483 00:28:54,789 --> 00:28:57,029 This is Irving Kahn, 484 00:28:57,149 --> 00:29:00,562 a financial trader on New York's Madison Avenue, 485 00:29:00,682 --> 00:29:04,202 who has come to work every day since 1927. 486 00:29:06,012 --> 00:29:09,350 Irving is 105 years old. 487 00:29:09,570 --> 00:29:12,169 Do you remember the Wall Street crash? 488 00:29:12,508 --> 00:29:15,308 Oh, yes. I came just at the time. 489 00:29:15,428 --> 00:29:22,407 About three or four months before the peak, the summer of 1928, '29. 490 00:29:24,609 --> 00:29:27,658 And that was one reason I didn't like the business. 491 00:29:27,678 --> 00:29:28,395 Yes. 492 00:29:28,410 --> 00:29:31,701 Because I came here, went to the exchange 493 00:29:31,821 --> 00:29:33,128 on Wall Street, 494 00:29:33,248 --> 00:29:38,187 and found, after a week on the floor, that it was like working in a casino. 495 00:29:38,202 --> 00:29:38,994 I can imagine. 496 00:29:39,010 --> 00:29:40,741 - A gambling house. - Yes. 497 00:29:40,861 --> 00:29:42,993 I understand that, not just you 498 00:29:43,011 --> 00:29:45,937 but many members of your family are extremely long-lived. 499 00:29:45,976 --> 00:29:49,817 Yes, my brother Peter is about 103 or 104. 500 00:29:49,937 --> 00:29:51,781 - I'm 105. - Yes. 501 00:29:52,139 --> 00:29:56,571 I have limited renals and limited hearsight - 502 00:29:56,982 --> 00:30:01,600 and I hope, the right number of marbles. 503 00:30:01,630 --> 00:30:03,215 You have got a lot of marbles, I think! 504 00:30:03,261 --> 00:30:04,876 What about your sister, how old is she? 505 00:30:04,889 --> 00:30:06,926 She's 108. 506 00:30:07,429 --> 00:30:09,487 Mr Kahn, is it possible to give us an idea 507 00:30:09,494 --> 00:30:12,310 what it feels like to be your age? 508 00:30:13,273 --> 00:30:16,190 It's much better and it's much worse. 509 00:30:21,659 --> 00:30:25,261 So, why do some people's genes keep their bodies going 510 00:30:25,262 --> 00:30:26,486 for so much longer? 511 00:30:28,125 --> 00:30:31,030 The curious case of Irving Kahn and his family 512 00:30:31,150 --> 00:30:35,270 has intrigued scientists who are trying to answer this very question. 513 00:30:38,376 --> 00:30:43,068 When we ask our people, why do you think you live to be so old? 514 00:30:43,403 --> 00:30:44,941 One of the things they're saying, 515 00:30:44,963 --> 00:30:49,382 "Hey, it's in my family. My mother was 102, my grandfather was 108." 516 00:30:49,502 --> 00:30:53,597 Irving can show that he has four other siblings 517 00:30:53,598 --> 00:30:56,270 that lived to be 100. 518 00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:03,314 The study looked at 500 aged Ashkenazi Jews, 519 00:31:03,403 --> 00:31:06,842 like Irving Kahn, from the same geographical area, 520 00:31:06,843 --> 00:31:10,843 whose environment and genes can be easily compared. 521 00:31:14,331 --> 00:31:17,866 For Irving, and especially for his sister, Helen, 522 00:31:18,171 --> 00:31:21,120 she's been smoking for 95 years, 523 00:31:21,592 --> 00:31:24,347 two packs for 95 years, 524 00:31:24,467 --> 00:31:27,930 which shows you that if you smoke for 95 years, you live a long life! 525 00:31:27,931 --> 00:31:28,816 I know it doesn't! 526 00:31:28,823 --> 00:31:30,909 I can assure you... I can assure you that that's true. 527 00:31:31,595 --> 00:31:35,266 And Irving has smoked for about 30 years in his life. 528 00:31:35,526 --> 00:31:40,236 So the point here is that our centenarians, as a group, 529 00:31:40,356 --> 00:31:42,930 did not interact with their environment 530 00:31:43,050 --> 00:31:46,978 the way we tell... the way the doctors tell their patients, 531 00:31:47,001 --> 00:31:50,170 that you have to watch your weight, you have to exercise, 532 00:31:50,171 --> 00:31:51,778 you shouldn't smoke 533 00:31:51,793 --> 00:31:55,370 and you should drink one cup of alcohol a day 534 00:31:55,490 --> 00:31:58,626 and all the things we know to tell them. It doesn't matter for them. 535 00:32:00,517 --> 00:32:03,839 So, for some, lifestyle and environment 536 00:32:03,862 --> 00:32:07,186 don't play as large a role as we've been told. 537 00:32:07,813 --> 00:32:11,346 But if Irving's genes hold the secret to long life, 538 00:32:11,531 --> 00:32:15,651 why hasn't evolution given us all genes like his? 539 00:32:16,173 --> 00:32:20,811 If there are genes that increase longevity out into the hundreds, 540 00:32:20,931 --> 00:32:25,462 why didn't natural selection favour those genes in our ancestral past? 541 00:32:26,102 --> 00:32:28,921 Well, I will tell you, there is something very upsetting 542 00:32:29,041 --> 00:32:31,885 in this sense in our group. 543 00:32:32,005 --> 00:32:36,050 First of all, a third of the centenarians in the world don't have children. 544 00:32:36,051 --> 00:32:39,582 OK, so I don't know, is it having children, raising them, 545 00:32:39,771 --> 00:32:41,223 rearing them, I don't know what? 546 00:32:41,239 --> 00:32:43,913 But... the point is that there is some exchange 547 00:32:43,928 --> 00:32:46,305 between reproduction and aging. 548 00:32:46,328 --> 00:32:49,962 But also, in my study, the centenarians had less kids 549 00:32:50,371 --> 00:32:54,630 at a much later age than my control population. 550 00:32:55,148 --> 00:32:59,394 So, if the control population has three to five kids on average, 551 00:32:59,611 --> 00:33:03,131 our centenarians are 1.7 kids on average. 552 00:33:03,251 --> 00:33:06,091 And so, if you are thinking that way, 553 00:33:06,211 --> 00:33:09,310 we're losing longevity genes, right? 554 00:33:09,371 --> 00:33:12,250 Because in every generation, we populate more 555 00:33:12,251 --> 00:33:15,921 with kids of the people who don't have longevity genes 556 00:33:15,936 --> 00:33:18,024 than have longevity genes. 557 00:33:21,704 --> 00:33:25,466 Our genes appear to trade long life for reproduction. 558 00:33:27,093 --> 00:33:30,598 Longevity seems to be connected to later reproduction 559 00:33:30,613 --> 00:33:32,510 or no children at all. 560 00:33:34,042 --> 00:33:38,387 So how long we live and why we die are dependent on our genes. 561 00:33:39,148 --> 00:33:42,927 And I'm about to look my own genetic code straight in the face. 562 00:33:48,211 --> 00:33:50,165 Advances in genetic science mean 563 00:33:50,196 --> 00:33:54,371 it is now possible for me to get my entire genome decoded. 564 00:33:59,731 --> 00:34:02,611 There's something very personal and intimate about it as well. 565 00:34:02,731 --> 00:34:05,489 This is something that is absolutely unique to me, 566 00:34:05,497 --> 00:34:08,110 there's never ever been, in the history of the world, 567 00:34:08,133 --> 00:34:10,170 nor will there be again 568 00:34:10,290 --> 00:34:12,331 a genome which is the same as mine, 569 00:34:12,376 --> 00:34:15,826 or the same as yours, or the same as anybody else's. 570 00:34:22,893 --> 00:34:25,906 This new science is still in its infancy. 571 00:34:26,451 --> 00:34:29,690 I'm going to be one of just a dozen people in the world 572 00:34:29,810 --> 00:34:31,720 and the first person in Britain publicly 573 00:34:32,024 --> 00:34:35,270 to have their whole genome sequenced. 574 00:34:40,664 --> 00:34:43,050 What we're doing here is very new for us, actually, 575 00:34:43,051 --> 00:34:45,224 and it's actually very exciting for us. 576 00:34:45,254 --> 00:34:48,911 We're taking a genome of a healthy person and we are asking, 577 00:34:48,917 --> 00:34:51,554 what can we learn about that person? 578 00:34:51,674 --> 00:34:54,890 It is your most important bit of information about you, 579 00:34:54,891 --> 00:34:56,171 is your genome sequence. 580 00:34:56,529 --> 00:34:59,447 But on a serious note, of course, we may find information 581 00:34:59,729 --> 00:35:04,054 in your genome that has clinical or health implications. 582 00:35:04,174 --> 00:35:05,843 Yes, I have thought about that. 583 00:35:05,963 --> 00:35:07,367 So, let's go, let's go and do it. 584 00:35:07,626 --> 00:35:08,967 OK. 585 00:35:10,041 --> 00:35:12,826 It'll just be a little scratch as the needle goes in. 586 00:35:13,131 --> 00:35:16,955 'Having my blood taken is only the first stage in a complex process.' 587 00:35:17,171 --> 00:35:18,464 OK, so we're almost there. 588 00:35:18,929 --> 00:35:21,266 This is the most painless blood test I've ever had. 589 00:35:23,367 --> 00:35:26,026 'Having my genome decoded is, in effect, 590 00:35:26,217 --> 00:35:30,331 a way of narrowing down how and when I'm going to die. 591 00:35:30,788 --> 00:35:34,651 'My journey to understand death has become personal.' 592 00:35:34,811 --> 00:35:36,849 You have roughly 100 mutations 593 00:35:36,857 --> 00:35:41,706 which have been reported as being associated with a disease. 594 00:35:53,435 --> 00:35:56,487 'I may be one of a handful of individuals in the world 595 00:35:56,495 --> 00:35:58,788 'to have their genome sequenced, 596 00:35:59,093 --> 00:36:01,394 but before I find out my results 597 00:36:01,441 --> 00:36:04,230 'I'm off to meet the man who was first. 598 00:36:05,655 --> 00:36:07,735 'And he isn't just anyone. 599 00:36:07,765 --> 00:36:11,719 'He's one of the two men who made this new science possible - 600 00:36:11,839 --> 00:36:13,950 'James Watson.' 601 00:36:14,528 --> 00:36:17,001 Well, it's certainly a very beautiful thing. 602 00:36:17,121 --> 00:36:19,040 'Together with Francis Crick, 603 00:36:19,041 --> 00:36:22,159 'James Watson discovered that genes are digital codes 604 00:36:22,167 --> 00:36:24,460 'written on DNA molecules. 605 00:36:26,139 --> 00:36:29,441 'Watson and Crick's names will live forever. 606 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:33,561 'And Watson isn't shy about it.' 607 00:36:34,375 --> 00:36:38,240 So now I realise, I am, except for Hawking, 608 00:36:38,241 --> 00:36:40,321 the most famous scientist alive. 609 00:36:40,354 --> 00:36:42,333 Oh, wonderful, yes. 610 00:36:43,468 --> 00:36:46,656 I turned out to be helped by people looking at my DNA. 611 00:36:47,049 --> 00:36:48,163 In what way? 612 00:36:48,178 --> 00:36:52,034 It revealed that I have a genetic polymorphism 613 00:36:52,554 --> 00:36:56,734 which metabolises drugs and I have one which acts very slowly. 614 00:36:56,854 --> 00:36:58,920 So if I take, er... 615 00:36:59,621 --> 00:37:00,962 beta blockers, 616 00:37:01,001 --> 00:37:05,518 it stays in my system for a week instead of going away for a day. 617 00:37:05,854 --> 00:37:09,040 So I've been given them for, you know, 618 00:37:09,041 --> 00:37:13,041 to help control my blood pressure and I went to sleep! 619 00:37:15,675 --> 00:37:18,011 Watson took a personal risk 620 00:37:18,034 --> 00:37:20,969 in making his genome available for study, 621 00:37:21,089 --> 00:37:24,532 exposing all its imperfections to public scrutiny 622 00:37:24,555 --> 00:37:27,993 for the sake of advancing genetic research. 623 00:37:28,755 --> 00:37:31,185 Do you get great pleasure from ideas? 624 00:37:31,216 --> 00:37:33,844 - No, I get pleasure from understanding. - Yes. 625 00:37:34,036 --> 00:37:37,047 So understanding, everything falls into place when you understand? 626 00:37:37,062 --> 00:37:42,201 Yes, you move from... It's understanding, er... 627 00:37:43,720 --> 00:37:47,481 that gives you happiness and I think it's one of the... 628 00:37:47,836 --> 00:37:49,370 unique human features, 629 00:37:49,401 --> 00:37:53,995 because it's not limited to me but it clearly, 630 00:37:54,361 --> 00:37:57,590 you know, when you're able to find out how to do something. 631 00:38:04,121 --> 00:38:07,320 This, for me, is what is so thrilling about science - 632 00:38:07,321 --> 00:38:11,023 understanding things, such as how the DNA molecule 633 00:38:11,038 --> 00:38:14,096 underlies all life on Earth. 634 00:38:16,044 --> 00:38:19,400 It's because Watson discovered the structure of DNA, 635 00:38:19,401 --> 00:38:21,344 over half a century ago, 636 00:38:21,351 --> 00:38:24,416 that today I'm able to have my own genome analysed 637 00:38:24,881 --> 00:38:30,725 and understand what makes me live, and how and when I might die. 638 00:38:33,269 --> 00:38:36,221 Today is a very special day for me. 639 00:38:36,217 --> 00:38:38,800 In 50 years, lots of people will be able to say this, 640 00:38:38,816 --> 00:38:41,533 but today I'm one of very few people 641 00:38:41,653 --> 00:38:44,653 who's had their entire genome sequenced. 642 00:38:44,773 --> 00:38:48,666 Today is the big day when I get to see the results. 643 00:38:51,041 --> 00:38:54,195 So Richard, it's a long time since you were in Oxford 644 00:38:54,210 --> 00:38:55,963 and we took an armful of your blood. 645 00:38:55,993 --> 00:38:58,043 We've had a team busy working since then, 646 00:38:58,231 --> 00:39:01,060 trying to extract the DNA and reconstruct your genome. 647 00:39:01,180 --> 00:39:02,631 We take these fragments... 648 00:39:02,667 --> 00:39:04,366 'To understand my genes, 649 00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:08,430 'Gil McVean matches them against the human reference genome - 650 00:39:08,634 --> 00:39:10,821 'a composite of anonymous donors 651 00:39:10,836 --> 00:39:14,350 'that took ten years to decode and construct.' 652 00:39:15,341 --> 00:39:17,140 What we're really interested in 653 00:39:17,141 --> 00:39:19,354 is not saying where you agree with this reference 654 00:39:19,370 --> 00:39:20,912 but finding places where you differ. 655 00:39:21,204 --> 00:39:24,099 In that, we find over four million differences 656 00:39:24,219 --> 00:39:26,294 between your genome and that reference. 657 00:39:26,456 --> 00:39:29,640 We have about 50,000 variants that we have seen in you 658 00:39:29,678 --> 00:39:32,703 for the very first time, completely new to science. 659 00:39:33,313 --> 00:39:36,729 'It is extraordinary that this enormous quantity of data 660 00:39:36,730 --> 00:39:40,369 'reveals incredibly precise details about me. 661 00:39:40,370 --> 00:39:42,417 'Elements of my private world 662 00:39:42,537 --> 00:39:46,489 'that I've never shared with anyone before, or known myself.' 663 00:39:46,609 --> 00:39:48,769 You have a classic European mutation 664 00:39:48,770 --> 00:39:50,672 that means that you've got runny earwax. 665 00:39:50,792 --> 00:39:54,855 Another one which means that you can smell asparagus in your own urine. 666 00:39:54,975 --> 00:39:58,101 You've got another one that means you can taste broccoli. 667 00:39:58,490 --> 00:39:59,984 They sound frivolous, 668 00:39:59,992 --> 00:40:03,474 but at the same time they probably point to an evolutionary process 669 00:40:03,527 --> 00:40:07,810 and that's probably to do with your ability to detect toxins. 670 00:40:08,042 --> 00:40:11,675 Plants have different toxins across the world. 671 00:40:11,676 --> 00:40:14,249 There are local adaptations to toxins 672 00:40:14,250 --> 00:40:18,213 that you need to be able to recognise to survive. 673 00:40:18,434 --> 00:40:21,750 'Buried in my genome is the story of my own survival, 674 00:40:22,474 --> 00:40:26,010 'but also clues about how I may die. 675 00:40:26,130 --> 00:40:30,130 'Do I have ticking time bombs in my genetic code?' 676 00:40:31,113 --> 00:40:32,896 You have roughly a hundred mutations 677 00:40:32,919 --> 00:40:36,923 which have been seen before in clinical settings 678 00:40:36,969 --> 00:40:40,458 and have been reported as being associated with a disease. 679 00:40:40,850 --> 00:40:44,929 Having these mutations doesn't mean you'll definitely get the disease, 680 00:40:45,049 --> 00:40:46,893 it just alters your chance of getting that. 681 00:40:47,487 --> 00:40:49,369 These are the variants that you carry 682 00:40:49,392 --> 00:40:54,690 which have been associated with a whole range of common disorders. 683 00:40:54,810 --> 00:40:57,129 Everything from cancer through to type II diabetes 684 00:40:57,144 --> 00:40:59,116 through to schizophrenia. 685 00:40:59,570 --> 00:41:01,914 Let's just take an example of this. 686 00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:04,982 If you zoom in on chromosome 11, you've got a mutation 687 00:41:05,330 --> 00:41:09,660 which the literature tells you is associated with, or causes porphyria, 688 00:41:09,668 --> 00:41:13,729 which is the disease that people hypothesised for a while 689 00:41:13,730 --> 00:41:15,672 caused the madness of King George. 690 00:41:15,792 --> 00:41:17,809 It's a nasty disease. You would know if you had it. 691 00:41:17,929 --> 00:41:21,236 You should have a 70% chance of getting porphyria. 692 00:41:22,411 --> 00:41:26,631 'So I've dodged that bullet, but there are other threats. 693 00:41:26,751 --> 00:41:29,465 'It's so impressively precise! 694 00:41:29,717 --> 00:41:32,209 'My genome reveals that if I smoked, 695 00:41:32,210 --> 00:41:34,669 'I would have been in the most high-risk group 696 00:41:34,684 --> 00:41:36,904 'for developing lung cancer.' 697 00:41:38,100 --> 00:41:41,369 Your genotype doubles your risk of getting lung cancer 698 00:41:41,489 --> 00:41:43,205 but actually the way it does it 699 00:41:43,220 --> 00:41:46,890 is through doubling your risk of smoking in a particular way. 700 00:41:47,010 --> 00:41:50,667 So this variant influences your risk of getting lung cancer 701 00:41:50,675 --> 00:41:52,800 because it changes the way people smoke. 702 00:41:52,839 --> 00:41:54,263 They smoke deeper breaths, 703 00:41:54,538 --> 00:41:56,688 they smoke closer to the end of the cigarette. 704 00:41:56,734 --> 00:42:00,463 What it actually does is change your smoking habits. 705 00:42:00,509 --> 00:42:01,932 How fascinating! 706 00:42:02,052 --> 00:42:05,930 So it's picked up as a gene for lung cancer 707 00:42:06,050 --> 00:42:09,753 but the method of transmission, the method of effect 708 00:42:09,873 --> 00:42:11,724 - ..is via smoking behaviour. - Exactly. 709 00:42:12,016 --> 00:42:14,207 This raises the question of whether you've ever smoked. 710 00:42:14,208 --> 00:42:15,892 Do you like the smell of wood smoke? 711 00:42:15,907 --> 00:42:17,393 No, I've never smoked. 712 00:42:17,431 --> 00:42:20,556 That's good, but don't take up smoking is my advice. 713 00:42:20,816 --> 00:42:23,688 It seems to me to be utterly astonishing 714 00:42:23,711 --> 00:42:27,833 that it's possible for scientists to take an individual 715 00:42:27,953 --> 00:42:35,195 and to detect these millions of digital pieces of information 716 00:42:35,835 --> 00:42:39,486 to actually read it out as though it was a computer disk. 717 00:42:39,606 --> 00:42:44,023 Well, here it is then. Here is your genome. Look after it! 718 00:42:44,053 --> 00:42:45,135 Thank you very much! 719 00:42:45,379 --> 00:42:47,680 I'm delighted to have it. 720 00:42:48,050 --> 00:42:51,757 Thank you so much for all the work you and your colleagues have put in. 721 00:42:52,130 --> 00:42:54,769 I mean, when I look at this, this little box here, 722 00:42:54,770 --> 00:42:58,337 what it contains is all the information necessary 723 00:42:58,782 --> 00:43:02,796 to make... not quite me, to make an identical twin of me. 724 00:43:03,369 --> 00:43:06,287 And I think that's an astonishing thought. 725 00:43:06,769 --> 00:43:08,966 Thank you very, very much for this. 726 00:43:08,997 --> 00:43:09,941 It's been a pleasure. 727 00:43:19,726 --> 00:43:22,639 As we come to learn more about DNA, 728 00:43:22,759 --> 00:43:26,210 our relationship with death is bound to change. 729 00:43:28,758 --> 00:43:31,756 And as more of us have our genomes analysed, 730 00:43:32,016 --> 00:43:36,160 will we be able to avoid those ticking time bombs contained in our codes 731 00:43:36,747 --> 00:43:40,530 that killed our ancestors after they reproduced? 732 00:43:49,450 --> 00:43:52,770 This is my genome, my whole genome. 733 00:43:52,890 --> 00:43:57,111 And strangely enough, portions of my genome are behind that door. 734 00:43:57,650 --> 00:44:00,718 Behind there is the Dawkins' family vault. 735 00:44:01,090 --> 00:44:05,633 This has been the Dawkins' church since the 1720s 736 00:44:05,753 --> 00:44:10,647 and in there are 20 of my relations, many of them my ancestors, 737 00:44:10,767 --> 00:44:13,146 and they have contributed some of the genes 738 00:44:13,152 --> 00:44:16,246 that are inside this little silver box. 739 00:44:17,267 --> 00:44:20,619 At the top, next to the top there, 740 00:44:21,010 --> 00:44:25,932 Henry Dawkins, and then three down, his wife, Lady Juliana Dawkins. 741 00:44:26,473 --> 00:44:31,258 They are my four greats - my great, great, great, great grandparents. 742 00:44:31,650 --> 00:44:36,831 One-64th of the genes inside this little silver box come from Henry. 743 00:44:37,450 --> 00:44:40,103 The bottom of this column here, the middle column, is another Henry, 744 00:44:40,223 --> 00:44:45,250 his son - he has contributed one-32nd part 745 00:44:45,370 --> 00:44:47,870 of the genes inside this hard disk. 746 00:44:48,544 --> 00:44:51,234 Unfortunately, the door can't be opened. 747 00:44:51,470 --> 00:44:54,289 It hasn't been opened since, I think, 1919. 748 00:44:54,290 --> 00:44:56,878 They've lost the key, nobody knows how to open it. 749 00:44:56,893 --> 00:45:00,353 There are some slots in there that I should never occupy 750 00:45:00,368 --> 00:45:02,212 unless they can get the door open! 751 00:45:02,219 --> 00:45:03,796 What would be rather nice 752 00:45:03,819 --> 00:45:07,376 would be if we could somehow post this disk in there 753 00:45:07,429 --> 00:45:09,967 to rest alongside my ancestors. 754 00:45:11,711 --> 00:45:16,290 But the genes, the set of instructions inside us, don't rest. 755 00:45:17,007 --> 00:45:20,382 Just as they have come from our ancestors before us, 756 00:45:20,405 --> 00:45:23,489 so too do they march on into our children 757 00:45:23,490 --> 00:45:27,490 and their children's children. 758 00:45:28,413 --> 00:45:33,043 Our genes are a kind of archive of the remote past. 759 00:45:33,163 --> 00:45:37,370 They go through us to the remote future. 760 00:45:37,490 --> 00:45:40,344 Henry Dawkins may be my four greats grandfather 761 00:45:40,464 --> 00:45:42,809 and he's put some genes in here, 762 00:45:42,810 --> 00:45:45,701 but my two hundred million greats grandfather... 763 00:45:45,724 --> 00:45:47,567 was a fish, and, by the way, 764 00:45:47,590 --> 00:45:51,339 the same fish was your two hundred million greats grandfather too. 765 00:45:51,529 --> 00:45:55,690 Amazingly, even he has put some genes in here, 766 00:45:55,918 --> 00:45:59,596 and they, too, have a chance of going on to the remote future. 767 00:46:01,403 --> 00:46:04,477 Our genes are, in a sense, immortal. 768 00:46:04,597 --> 00:46:08,289 That's not comforting in the way the soul is supposed to be, 769 00:46:08,290 --> 00:46:12,528 but it is a wonderful thought and it is true. 770 00:46:13,850 --> 00:46:17,911 We may argue about whether we have an immortal soul 771 00:46:17,926 --> 00:46:22,210 that survives our death, but one thing science tells us for sure 772 00:46:22,370 --> 00:46:25,769 is that if there's anything that's immortal in our bodies, 773 00:46:25,770 --> 00:46:27,676 it is our genes. 774 00:46:59,872 --> 00:47:04,550 Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd