1 00:00:51,207 --> 00:00:56,406 SOCIOLOGY IS A MARTIAL ART 2 00:00:57,847 --> 00:00:59,485 [Edward Said in Chicago] Pierre... 3 00:01:01,167 --> 00:01:03,886 Good evening. Or, rather, good morning. 4 00:01:05,207 --> 00:01:07,641 I'll introduce you 5 00:01:07,807 --> 00:01:10,605 and then I'll put you on. 6 00:01:38,247 --> 00:01:41,284 Okay, Pierre. You can begin now. 7 00:02:05,207 --> 00:02:07,482 It's terrifying, To have such stage fright. 8 00:02:07,647 --> 00:02:10,366 My mouth is all dry. 9 00:02:12,247 --> 00:02:14,477 Luckily, I had a glass of water. 10 00:02:15,607 --> 00:02:17,677 It's incredible. 11 00:02:19,127 --> 00:02:21,846 - The worst is over. - But it's hard. 12 00:02:22,047 --> 00:02:24,959 It's really terrible to be so nervous. 13 00:02:28,607 --> 00:02:33,522 That's linguistic insecurity for you. 14 00:02:35,327 --> 00:02:39,843 It would have been different in French. But that's life. 15 00:02:43,047 --> 00:02:46,835 [José Bové] We refuse this intolerable logic, 16 00:02:47,007 --> 00:02:50,283 the logic of money, which is crushing everything, 17 00:02:52,047 --> 00:02:57,644 making every citizen a potential outcast. 18 00:02:57,807 --> 00:03:01,436 We are here today to say no to the tyranny of money, 19 00:03:01,607 --> 00:03:04,246 to say that citizens must reclaim power. 20 00:03:12,487 --> 00:03:15,399 Before going into court, [for dismantling a McDonald's] 21 00:03:15,607 --> 00:03:19,395 We, the accused, make this oath 22 00:03:19,567 --> 00:03:22,764 that if French justice 23 00:03:22,927 --> 00:03:25,395 does not allow the debate to take place, 24 00:03:25,567 --> 00:03:28,923 if the witnesses are not allowed to speak out, 25 00:03:29,087 --> 00:03:32,682 if the peasants of South America, 26 00:03:32,847 --> 00:03:35,759 Africa, Asia or the United States can't express themselves, 27 00:03:35,927 --> 00:03:37,645 we shall leave the court. 28 00:03:37,807 --> 00:03:40,605 We want nothing to do with that kind of justice! 29 00:03:55,207 --> 00:03:57,482 All together! All together! 30 00:04:24,967 --> 00:04:27,606 That raises so many questions... 31 00:04:27,767 --> 00:04:29,280 I studied sociology. 32 00:04:29,447 --> 00:04:32,678 It's always fascinated me. I'm 32 now and... 33 00:04:32,847 --> 00:04:36,522 The question is, how should one live? It's fascinating but... 34 00:04:36,687 --> 00:04:39,645 In fact, I owe this situation to you. 35 00:04:39,807 --> 00:04:42,958 I often tell myself that you triggered it all off. 36 00:04:43,127 --> 00:04:45,436 What impressed me most about you, 37 00:04:45,607 --> 00:04:49,202 the reason why I loved your writings so much at the beginning... 38 00:04:49,367 --> 00:04:53,519 I believed I was free but I wasn't free at all. 39 00:04:53,687 --> 00:04:57,043 Symbolic violence and all that... 40 00:04:57,207 --> 00:04:59,960 Me, I've been living exactly what you write about 41 00:05:00,127 --> 00:05:02,118 for the last fifteen years. 42 00:05:02,287 --> 00:05:04,721 At times, I love your stuff, I want to thank you 43 00:05:04,887 --> 00:05:08,766 at other times, I get really mad at you. 44 00:05:08,927 --> 00:05:12,715 - PB: You have reason to be... - And the media are all over you now, 45 00:05:13,047 --> 00:05:14,480 that really annoys me. - The media insult me! 46 00:05:14,647 --> 00:05:17,798 Fifteen years ago, I remember No one knew who you were 47 00:05:17,967 --> 00:05:20,686 Mention Bourdieu now, and you sound ridiculous. 48 00:05:20,847 --> 00:05:24,476 But it must be interesting for you to analyse that. 49 00:05:24,647 --> 00:05:29,198 But your work is subversive because you make people... 50 00:05:29,367 --> 00:05:31,403 Things are going to start happening. 51 00:05:31,567 --> 00:05:35,162 I've listened to what you say about culture. 52 00:05:35,327 --> 00:05:36,726 I'll let you go, sorry... 53 00:05:36,887 --> 00:05:38,957 Three years ago, at those meetings, 54 00:05:39,127 --> 00:05:41,925 in Grenoble 55 00:05:42,087 --> 00:05:44,442 you were there 56 00:05:44,607 --> 00:05:47,075 Yes, we were just talking about them. 57 00:05:47,567 --> 00:05:50,365 That was a great moment. 58 00:05:50,527 --> 00:05:54,486 To me, you represent... There are two or three people... 59 00:05:54,647 --> 00:05:57,798 I have two living legends, Cavanna [French writer] and Bourdieu 60 00:05:59,887 --> 00:06:01,206 Thank you. 61 00:06:01,887 --> 00:06:03,366 A kiss! On camera, too! 62 00:06:14,727 --> 00:06:17,195 Hello, how are you? Working hard? 63 00:06:20,407 --> 00:06:22,079 - Okay? - Yes, thanks. 64 00:06:28,687 --> 00:06:30,166 Shall I do a sound check? 65 00:06:47,527 --> 00:06:48,562 It's the jingle. 66 00:06:48,727 --> 00:06:52,197 So-so-socio-Iogy: 67 00:06:52,367 --> 00:06:55,643 The scientific study of social phenomena among human beings. 68 00:06:57,047 --> 00:06:58,036 Ready. 69 00:06:58,207 --> 00:06:59,606 Wednesday December 1 st. 70 00:06:59,767 --> 00:07:02,839 From six to seven pm on RDC 95.5 FM: 71 00:07:03,007 --> 00:07:04,486 With our special guest, Pierre Bourdieu. 72 00:07:04,687 --> 00:07:07,918 Pierre Bourdieu, I feel that there is an imperative 73 00:07:08,087 --> 00:07:10,920 not to be intimidated by words. 74 00:07:11,087 --> 00:07:15,285 So tell me what a sociologist does. What do you do? 75 00:07:15,487 --> 00:07:17,717 And, if I dare ask, what purpose do you serve? 76 00:07:17,967 --> 00:07:20,276 Right. I heard the definition 77 00:07:20,447 --> 00:07:25,043 which was given, a bit ironically. I made a note of it... 78 00:07:25,727 --> 00:07:31,085 "Sociology, the scientific study of social phenomena among human beings." 79 00:07:31,247 --> 00:07:35,126 I doubt if anyone understood that. I certainly didn't! 80 00:07:35,887 --> 00:07:38,959 Like so many dictionary definitions, it's a complete tautology, 81 00:07:39,127 --> 00:07:41,083 it says the same thing twice. 82 00:07:41,807 --> 00:07:44,560 I'll try to explain it a bit better. 83 00:07:45,687 --> 00:07:50,602 Like all scientists, the sociologist 84 00:07:51,007 --> 00:07:53,646 tries to establish laws, 85 00:07:53,807 --> 00:07:56,924 to grasp regularities, 86 00:07:57,087 --> 00:07:59,237 recurrent ways of being 87 00:07:59,407 --> 00:08:03,161 and to define their principle. 88 00:08:03,327 --> 00:08:06,763 Why do people do the things they do? 89 00:08:06,927 --> 00:08:09,316 Why, for example, 90 00:08:09,607 --> 00:08:13,805 do teachers' children do better at school than working-class children? 91 00:08:14,767 --> 00:08:19,477 By "why," I mean "how is it that?" 92 00:08:19,647 --> 00:08:21,956 How is it that things happen that way? 93 00:08:22,127 --> 00:08:26,359 That it happens like that in society, and not otherwise? 94 00:08:26,607 --> 00:08:29,883 Welcome to all of you who have just joined us 95 00:08:30,167 --> 00:08:33,125 for this special program on Pierre Bourdieu who is with us today. 96 00:08:33,287 --> 00:08:37,360 The central theme of your work is "social reproduction". 97 00:08:37,527 --> 00:08:42,078 You've developed some very effective tools for interpretation. 98 00:08:42,247 --> 00:08:45,045 Could you explain to all of us 99 00:08:45,207 --> 00:08:49,439 who might not be familiar with your work, 100 00:08:49,607 --> 00:08:51,962 what social inequality is, why it exists, 101 00:08:52,127 --> 00:08:53,799 what purpose it serves, 102 00:08:53,967 --> 00:08:57,004 and how it ends up becoming legitimised. 103 00:08:57,847 --> 00:09:01,078 That's a very big question, but a valid one. 104 00:09:01,367 --> 00:09:03,198 Does inequality serve a purpose? 105 00:09:03,687 --> 00:09:06,759 It's a very controversial issue, one that is much discussed. 106 00:09:06,927 --> 00:09:11,364 I'll start with social reproduction, since you mentioned it. 107 00:09:12,767 --> 00:09:17,079 I think one important thing that I have attempted to show, 108 00:09:18,007 --> 00:09:22,683 is that the social world is not in a state of perpetual change. 109 00:09:23,007 --> 00:09:25,999 When I began to work in sociology, 110 00:09:26,487 --> 00:09:31,117 one of the favourite words of some "sociologists" was "mutation". 111 00:09:31,287 --> 00:09:33,676 "Everything is undergoing mutation..." Even today, 112 00:09:33,847 --> 00:09:37,806 they say that men are changing because women are changing, etc. 113 00:09:37,967 --> 00:09:41,277 Everything changes constantly... It seemed to me, quite early on, 114 00:09:42,007 --> 00:09:45,761 that there's stability, there's inertia. 115 00:09:46,607 --> 00:09:51,203 So I tried, using statistical techniques, 116 00:09:51,407 --> 00:09:55,480 to document this inertia, to uncover the constants 117 00:09:55,647 --> 00:09:57,319 that make science possible. 118 00:09:57,487 --> 00:10:01,082 It is because there are constants that we can understand things. 119 00:10:01,247 --> 00:10:04,637 But I've also tried to explain why things are the way they are. 120 00:10:04,807 --> 00:10:06,957 Now, we come to inequality. 121 00:10:07,127 --> 00:10:10,961 Among the factors that explain the permanence of inequality, 122 00:10:11,127 --> 00:10:14,756 you have first the transmission of capital. 123 00:10:15,007 --> 00:10:17,396 A rich father 124 00:10:17,967 --> 00:10:20,401 can leave his son money 125 00:10:20,567 --> 00:10:23,365 to launch a business, for example, 126 00:10:23,527 --> 00:10:27,566 if he doesn't do very well in school, if he fails at everything 127 00:10:28,447 --> 00:10:31,325 even his studies at one of those business schools 128 00:10:31,527 --> 00:10:34,325 where daddy's boys go nowadays. 129 00:10:34,687 --> 00:10:37,804 The father can set him up, give him a start, 130 00:10:37,967 --> 00:10:40,879 and by this token he will "reproduce" himself. 131 00:10:41,327 --> 00:10:43,477 He won't fall down the social ladder, 132 00:10:44,087 --> 00:10:45,725 he won't become a worker. 133 00:10:45,887 --> 00:10:50,722 But today there's another kind of capital, 134 00:10:51,327 --> 00:10:54,125 which I call "cultural capital". 135 00:10:55,287 --> 00:10:58,996 This is more difficult to define. It's language, first of all, 136 00:10:59,167 --> 00:11:01,681 a certain mastery of language, 137 00:11:02,167 --> 00:11:04,203 like speaking "proper" French. 138 00:11:04,367 --> 00:11:06,403 Of course, everyone in France speaks French. 139 00:11:06,567 --> 00:11:10,276 Even immigrants who just arrived speak French too. 140 00:11:10,487 --> 00:11:12,921 But they speak a French that is worthless on the "school market". 141 00:11:13,087 --> 00:11:17,080 If you speak that kind of language, you will earn a straight F. 142 00:11:18,367 --> 00:11:21,200 So it's language and everything that comes with it. 143 00:11:21,367 --> 00:11:26,805 It's what you acquire in a "cultured" family, 144 00:11:26,967 --> 00:11:29,527 from daddy telling you stories, 145 00:11:30,807 --> 00:11:34,516 from reading books, even children's books. 146 00:11:34,687 --> 00:11:39,966 All of this is a capital: These are scarce resources, 147 00:11:40,127 --> 00:11:42,687 unequally distributed. 148 00:11:42,847 --> 00:11:45,839 And those who have more of it, because of this unequal distribution 149 00:11:46,007 --> 00:11:48,760 reap the profits attached to scarcity. 150 00:11:48,927 --> 00:11:51,566 If everyone had the same amount, 151 00:11:52,007 --> 00:11:55,317 if everyone spoke perfect French with no accent, 152 00:11:55,687 --> 00:11:58,599 there'd be no advantage to it. 153 00:11:58,767 --> 00:12:03,158 It's because there are differences that it pays to speak "good" French. 154 00:12:04,087 --> 00:12:07,159 There is a beautiful study done by an American sociologist 155 00:12:07,847 --> 00:12:12,398 which showed that middle-class children, 156 00:12:12,567 --> 00:12:15,127 children from the bourgeoisie 157 00:12:15,647 --> 00:12:18,764 know how to give the schoolteacher just what she wants 158 00:12:18,927 --> 00:12:21,805 because they come from the same background. 159 00:12:21,967 --> 00:12:23,639 The teacher's just like mummy. 160 00:12:24,287 --> 00:12:28,041 The teacher calls them "my darling" or "honey" 161 00:12:28,207 --> 00:12:30,516 and they're happy, they know how to react, 162 00:12:31,007 --> 00:12:33,316 so they are well perceived, 163 00:12:33,487 --> 00:12:36,320 they get good marks and they're happy. 164 00:12:36,487 --> 00:12:40,036 So you have certain factors that depend on prior knowledge, 165 00:12:40,927 --> 00:12:43,122 not school knowledge, but just as important. 166 00:12:43,287 --> 00:12:46,677 How to behave, not to throw your schoolbag on the floor, 167 00:12:47,007 --> 00:12:49,202 how to keep your notebooks tidy, etc. 168 00:12:49,367 --> 00:12:52,723 There's another related factor, 169 00:12:52,887 --> 00:12:56,084 observed among individuals with the same cultural capital, 170 00:12:56,967 --> 00:13:00,243 another factor of inequality is goodwill toward the school system, 171 00:13:00,407 --> 00:13:05,686 what is called "docility", from the Latin word 172 00:13:05,847 --> 00:13:08,315 docilis: "disposed to be instructed". 173 00:13:11,127 --> 00:13:14,244 For example, the difference in achievement between boys and girls 174 00:13:14,407 --> 00:13:17,763 at the primary school level, seems to me... 175 00:13:17,927 --> 00:13:21,397 - Girls do better than boys. - Yes, they do, 176 00:13:22,487 --> 00:13:27,038 at least up to quite a high level of secondary schooling. 177 00:13:27,927 --> 00:13:32,000 And this is because they are more "docile". 178 00:13:32,247 --> 00:13:34,636 That doesn't mean it's in a girl's nature. 179 00:13:34,807 --> 00:13:37,765 It's because they're brought up to be docile, 180 00:13:37,927 --> 00:13:41,203 they're better prepared to give the school system what it requires, 181 00:13:41,367 --> 00:13:44,404 which is cultural goodwill, 182 00:13:46,567 --> 00:13:49,127 looking at the teacher in the right way... 183 00:13:49,287 --> 00:13:51,437 And it pays, it is rewarded. 184 00:13:51,607 --> 00:13:55,077 And of course, rewards provide added incentives. 185 00:13:55,487 --> 00:13:59,002 These are just a few factors but it's a lot more complicated... 186 00:14:00,207 --> 00:14:01,720 What about men? 187 00:14:02,407 --> 00:14:04,682 They're more reticent. They have their sense of honour. 188 00:14:04,847 --> 00:14:07,315 In a way, school is harder for them. You know, this could take hours... 189 00:14:07,527 --> 00:14:11,406 I don't want to oversimplify, 190 00:14:11,607 --> 00:14:14,599 but cultural capital is a very important element. 191 00:14:14,767 --> 00:14:16,883 And today, increasingly, 192 00:14:17,047 --> 00:14:20,835 in contemporary society, 193 00:14:21,007 --> 00:14:23,567 in developed countries but also in other societies, 194 00:14:23,807 --> 00:14:27,846 the reproduction of inequalities is achieved more and more 195 00:14:28,607 --> 00:14:31,565 through the transmission of cultural capital. 196 00:14:34,407 --> 00:14:37,365 Another example. When I began my work 197 00:14:37,527 --> 00:14:41,236 there was a lot of talk about social mobility, in the United States 198 00:14:41,407 --> 00:14:44,444 "in one generation, you have self-made men", and so on. 199 00:14:44,607 --> 00:14:46,279 Well, that's baloney. 200 00:14:47,967 --> 00:14:49,446 There are now studies, 201 00:14:51,047 --> 00:14:53,561 partly inspired by the work I did in France, 202 00:14:54,247 --> 00:14:56,238 which have shown that in the States 203 00:14:56,407 --> 00:15:01,117 inequalities due to cultural capital are even greater than in France, 204 00:15:01,287 --> 00:15:06,407 because entry to the top universities is doubly controlled by capital: 205 00:15:06,567 --> 00:15:08,842 First by economic capital, because it's very expensive, 206 00:15:09,007 --> 00:15:14,001 and second by cultural capital, which, like here, is inherited. 207 00:15:14,167 --> 00:15:17,876 And in Japan, where a student of mine did some research at Todai University, 208 00:15:18,247 --> 00:15:20,602 you will find the sons of the Samurai... 209 00:15:20,767 --> 00:15:23,235 To get back to your question, There are inequalities, 210 00:15:23,407 --> 00:15:27,036 and these inequalities tend to perpetuate themselves, 211 00:15:27,287 --> 00:15:30,085 But I don't say that they are perpetuated automatically... 212 00:15:30,247 --> 00:15:33,683 But you didn't answer my question: Do they serve a purpose? 213 00:15:34,847 --> 00:15:37,361 Well, that's a question 214 00:15:37,887 --> 00:15:40,401 that belongs to metaphysics. 215 00:15:40,807 --> 00:15:43,640 The sociologist doesn't have to take a stand. 216 00:15:45,327 --> 00:15:46,999 We know that there are societies... 217 00:15:47,167 --> 00:15:50,842 there is at least one, studied by a friend of mine, 218 00:15:51,327 --> 00:15:52,726 the anthropologist Mary Douglas, 219 00:15:52,887 --> 00:15:56,641 it's a small-scale society where differences hardly exist at all. 220 00:15:56,807 --> 00:15:59,037 It's an archaic society. 221 00:15:59,607 --> 00:16:01,757 And it works very well. 222 00:16:01,927 --> 00:16:05,283 This is a response based on fact, 223 00:16:06,927 --> 00:16:09,885 but I'd rather put the question aside. It's a topic of discussion 224 00:16:10,207 --> 00:16:13,279 but I don't think we can answer it... - Because it's too complicated? 225 00:16:13,447 --> 00:16:17,486 Because it's complicated and because I can't answer it. 226 00:16:18,127 --> 00:16:21,403 Why is it so complicated? Can you explain that, simply? 227 00:16:21,567 --> 00:16:24,604 Because there are important political issues at stake here, 228 00:16:24,767 --> 00:16:26,917 It's a political question, not necessarily a scientific one. 229 00:16:27,087 --> 00:16:30,762 To ask the right scientific questions, you must often set politics aside. 230 00:16:31,447 --> 00:16:34,803 We're dealing here with political issues 231 00:16:34,967 --> 00:16:38,277 and especially issues related to "legitimacy", the word you used. 232 00:16:38,607 --> 00:16:42,646 There are people who would like to legitimise... 233 00:16:42,807 --> 00:16:45,275 How do things end up legitimised? 234 00:16:45,767 --> 00:16:47,917 - Sorry? - The question I asked earlier... 235 00:16:48,407 --> 00:16:51,365 Yes, well. There are those who say... 236 00:16:51,807 --> 00:16:54,446 Roughly put, it's the dominant who say that inequalities are justified. 237 00:16:54,607 --> 00:16:58,122 It's in their interest to say that inequality is a good thing. 238 00:16:58,647 --> 00:17:02,481 It's a general principle validated by research: 239 00:17:03,007 --> 00:17:05,282 People tend to say that things are right 240 00:17:06,207 --> 00:17:08,163 when they are right for them. 241 00:17:08,687 --> 00:17:11,440 It's a social law that's simple but true. 242 00:17:11,607 --> 00:17:13,643 It's important to know for purposes of self-defense. 243 00:17:13,807 --> 00:17:16,526 When someone says something in a debate, 244 00:17:16,687 --> 00:17:18,598 just ask yourself, 245 00:17:19,487 --> 00:17:24,003 "What are his social reasons for saying that?" 246 00:17:24,167 --> 00:17:26,761 If a priest tells you that there is no salvation outside of religion. 247 00:17:27,127 --> 00:17:29,687 Well, yes, his job depends on it! 248 00:17:30,207 --> 00:17:32,721 I'm oversimplifying a bit 249 00:17:32,887 --> 00:17:35,003 but it's often the case. 250 00:17:36,567 --> 00:17:40,480 It's a simple law but it's useful for self-defense. 251 00:17:40,647 --> 00:17:43,366 And I often say that sociology 252 00:17:44,447 --> 00:17:47,166 is a martial art. It can come in handy. 253 00:17:47,327 --> 00:17:49,887 - Sociology is a martial art? - Yes, a martial art. 254 00:17:50,047 --> 00:17:52,925 Like all the martial arts, you use it in self-defense... 255 00:17:53,087 --> 00:17:56,602 and using it for foul play is strictly forbidden. 256 00:17:56,807 --> 00:17:58,126 Thank you, Pierre Bourdieu. 257 00:18:01,647 --> 00:18:02,636 Thank you. 258 00:18:59,527 --> 00:19:01,085 It's done, I made a photocopy. 259 00:19:01,247 --> 00:19:04,205 You'll let me know for Leroux and Rouanet. 260 00:19:04,367 --> 00:19:06,676 Marie-Christine said you're free every day but Monday... 261 00:19:06,847 --> 00:19:08,599 Monday morning you have your workshop. 262 00:19:08,847 --> 00:19:10,644 Early afternoon is fine with me. 263 00:19:10,807 --> 00:19:12,798 - Any day, early afternoon? - Yes. 264 00:19:14,487 --> 00:19:15,397 Okay. 265 00:19:16,927 --> 00:19:17,996 Shall I shut the door? 266 00:19:18,487 --> 00:19:21,285 No, leave it open, so I can keep an eye on you! 267 00:19:29,927 --> 00:19:33,124 We'll just do the beginning to see if it's worth it. 268 00:19:33,647 --> 00:19:35,603 Shall I sit next to you? 269 00:19:37,927 --> 00:19:41,363 Is that for the Sayad? 270 00:19:41,527 --> 00:19:44,599 - It'll take a while, then. - No, I just want a look. 271 00:19:44,767 --> 00:19:47,600 - It's not great but... - What time is it? 272 00:19:47,767 --> 00:19:48,995 Five o'clock. 273 00:19:49,447 --> 00:19:52,120 You know that Martine's here also to work on the archives? 274 00:19:54,087 --> 00:19:57,875 - You approve of the railway strike? - Yes. 275 00:19:59,407 --> 00:20:01,557 I curse you these days! 276 00:20:02,847 --> 00:20:04,724 Well, I feel sorry for you but... 277 00:20:04,887 --> 00:20:06,206 I was a victim, too. 278 00:20:06,367 --> 00:20:08,961 I was in Versailles, and they announced "no more trains"! 279 00:20:09,127 --> 00:20:11,595 But I took it very well. They're in the right to strike. 280 00:20:11,767 --> 00:20:13,246 That was at the very start. 281 00:20:13,407 --> 00:20:15,637 But if it happened every morning... 282 00:20:15,927 --> 00:20:17,838 It gets tiresome. 283 00:20:18,087 --> 00:20:21,318 - It would bother me maybe. - It depends where you're going. 284 00:20:21,487 --> 00:20:24,843 If it's to visit the king's castle in Versailles or to travel to work... 285 00:20:25,287 --> 00:20:27,005 - I don't mean to nag... - Go on, take a walk! 286 00:20:27,167 --> 00:20:30,239 - Your workday is over, Mrs. Christin. - Thanks. 287 00:20:30,647 --> 00:20:33,525 - You can go home now. - Goodbye. 288 00:20:34,127 --> 00:20:35,606 Start on chapter one? 289 00:20:35,767 --> 00:20:37,041 Oh, she's always after me! 290 00:20:37,207 --> 00:20:38,925 Don't you think she's awful? 291 00:20:39,087 --> 00:20:40,520 What do I have to look at? 292 00:20:41,327 --> 00:20:43,443 She is a devil, though! 293 00:20:48,207 --> 00:20:53,281 She was only pulling my leg. That's our relationship. 294 00:20:53,447 --> 00:20:56,883 We're always throwing insults at each other. 295 00:20:59,647 --> 00:21:03,686 How can I explain? We argue about everything... 296 00:21:04,167 --> 00:21:06,158 nothing serious, mind you, but we're always at it... 297 00:21:06,327 --> 00:21:10,479 But it's a good relationship, because that way... 298 00:21:10,647 --> 00:21:13,684 it never gets really aggressive but there's none of that 299 00:21:13,847 --> 00:21:17,078 kind of fake politeness. We both pitch in. 300 00:21:17,847 --> 00:21:19,075 I enjoy it. 301 00:21:19,247 --> 00:21:23,035 And I don't think she does so badly on it either. 302 00:21:24,047 --> 00:21:25,036 There! 303 00:21:37,647 --> 00:21:40,605 - Is your surname French? - Yes, my family name. 304 00:21:43,047 --> 00:21:44,196 On my great-grandfather's side. 305 00:21:44,367 --> 00:21:47,040 - My assistant's name is Riviére. - Oh? 306 00:21:48,047 --> 00:21:50,083 "With great affection for a great master" 307 00:21:50,247 --> 00:21:52,317 That's too kind! 308 00:21:52,687 --> 00:21:54,723 Not at all. 309 00:21:58,087 --> 00:22:01,682 One of the reasons I started writing 310 00:22:01,847 --> 00:22:03,883 was to encourage people. 311 00:22:05,767 --> 00:22:08,759 Why do they say you come from the French Basque country? 312 00:22:08,927 --> 00:22:10,280 No, I'm from Béarn. 313 00:22:10,447 --> 00:22:13,405 B, E, A, R, N. 314 00:22:13,767 --> 00:22:18,283 It's a small province very close to the Pyrénees. 315 00:22:19,607 --> 00:22:23,316 It's very close to the Basque country but it's quite different. 316 00:22:23,607 --> 00:22:28,727 The dialect there is Gascon, which is very similar to Catalan. 317 00:22:29,407 --> 00:22:33,195 So what sort of family were you born into? 318 00:22:34,607 --> 00:22:40,159 My father was first a small farmer 319 00:22:40,327 --> 00:22:44,400 and then a postman, a low-ranking public employee. 320 00:22:45,087 --> 00:22:47,885 Why did you start studying sociology? 321 00:22:50,527 --> 00:22:52,995 Oh I don't know, it just happened, little by little. 322 00:22:54,247 --> 00:22:56,761 So, reading 'Masculine Domination' 323 00:22:57,407 --> 00:22:58,806 one could think that men, too, 324 00:22:59,007 --> 00:23:03,876 are victims of this domination. - Yes... 325 00:23:04,487 --> 00:23:08,116 So how do you explain why they don't change? 326 00:23:08,367 --> 00:23:11,996 - Is it that they can't... - Let's not overstate this. 327 00:23:12,167 --> 00:23:15,398 They're victims only in a relative way. 328 00:23:17,647 --> 00:23:20,684 There's a phrase written by Virginia Woolf, I think, 329 00:23:20,847 --> 00:23:23,042 which says that they play the best role. 330 00:23:23,207 --> 00:23:26,836 In French we say: They have the good part, 331 00:23:27,047 --> 00:23:28,366 they always come off best. 332 00:23:28,767 --> 00:23:30,883 Which means that they're visible, 333 00:23:32,087 --> 00:23:34,362 that, like in a theatre play, 334 00:23:34,847 --> 00:23:37,725 men have the leading roles. This has many advantages. 335 00:23:37,887 --> 00:23:40,355 They are visible, whereas women are invisible. 336 00:23:41,447 --> 00:23:44,041 They speak, whereas women keep quiet... 337 00:23:44,207 --> 00:23:47,119 But there's a price to pay for playing the lead role. 338 00:23:47,607 --> 00:23:50,679 Now, why don't things change? Of course things are changing 339 00:23:50,887 --> 00:23:54,766 but a lot less than one might think. 340 00:23:55,647 --> 00:23:59,196 The reason is that it all happens at a deeply unconscious level. 341 00:23:59,807 --> 00:24:04,164 In French we're always saying, "It's stronger than I am." 342 00:24:04,327 --> 00:24:06,079 - Well, that's it. - It's fate. 343 00:24:06,247 --> 00:24:09,125 Not quite, it means, "I can't help myself." 344 00:24:09,287 --> 00:24:11,005 It's stronger than I am... 345 00:24:12,567 --> 00:24:15,365 I remember when my mother got old, if I told her off, 346 00:24:15,527 --> 00:24:17,518 she'd say to me, "I'm too old for you to change me." 347 00:24:17,967 --> 00:24:19,559 It's stronger than I am. 348 00:24:19,887 --> 00:24:21,843 - How do you experience all that? - Me? 349 00:24:22,007 --> 00:24:24,043 - Do you think that you are macho? - No. 350 00:24:24,767 --> 00:24:27,440 Well to some extent, 351 00:24:27,607 --> 00:24:29,723 inevitably. 352 00:24:29,887 --> 00:24:32,003 - In your structures? - There's always a trace. 353 00:24:32,167 --> 00:24:34,203 If not, then what I say would be untrue. 354 00:24:34,647 --> 00:24:37,207 Here's a suggestion to save time. 355 00:24:37,407 --> 00:24:40,444 I'll ask my questions in Spanish 356 00:24:40,607 --> 00:24:42,359 and you reply in French, okay? 357 00:24:43,167 --> 00:24:44,919 Is it true that you said 358 00:24:45,087 --> 00:24:49,842 that you can't expect normal behaviour from a woman in a skirt? 359 00:24:50,087 --> 00:24:53,523 I'm not the one who said this. It was a fine study done by 360 00:24:53,687 --> 00:24:55,166 an American woman who analysed... She said, 361 00:24:55,327 --> 00:24:58,285 "Imagine all the gestures you..." 362 00:24:58,487 --> 00:25:00,762 She was talking to a man, she said, 363 00:25:00,927 --> 00:25:03,680 "Imagine that you're wearing a rather short skirt 364 00:25:03,847 --> 00:25:07,203 and you have to pick something up off the floor." 365 00:25:07,367 --> 00:25:09,437 She devised this gymnastics exercise for men. 366 00:25:09,607 --> 00:25:12,599 It's a superb piece of work, it makes you aware of things 367 00:25:12,767 --> 00:25:17,318 that even women are unaware of doing or not doing. 368 00:25:17,767 --> 00:25:23,717 You mean women aren't fully aware of the fact that they're dominated? 369 00:25:24,447 --> 00:25:28,042 Yes. And that's what symbolic domination is about. 370 00:25:28,207 --> 00:25:32,598 It's a form of domination that works 371 00:25:33,807 --> 00:25:38,119 insofar as the person dominated isn't fully aware of it. 372 00:25:38,287 --> 00:25:43,361 And so she is, to some extent, an accomplice to that domination. 373 00:25:43,527 --> 00:25:44,516 Senor Bourdieu, 374 00:25:44,727 --> 00:25:48,402 do you think that men should change their behaviour? 375 00:25:48,567 --> 00:25:52,401 Yes, but I don't speak in terms of... That's the trouble with sociologists, 376 00:25:52,567 --> 00:25:55,843 this is why I always seem to be sad, pessimistic and deterministic. 377 00:25:56,087 --> 00:25:58,647 I never say, "He should." 378 00:25:58,807 --> 00:26:02,004 I say, "You have to find a way to compell him to..." 379 00:26:02,167 --> 00:26:03,566 That's all. 380 00:26:03,727 --> 00:26:05,877 There are men of goodwill, who are willing to change. 381 00:26:06,047 --> 00:26:10,404 My book has been read by many men who told me 382 00:26:12,727 --> 00:26:14,604 "it's tough reading!" 383 00:26:17,767 --> 00:26:20,406 But they too are not aware of it either. 384 00:26:20,687 --> 00:26:23,759 There's that whole chapter on Virginia Woolf. 385 00:26:23,927 --> 00:26:29,001 I wrote that because she was a great theorist of feminism, 386 00:26:29,247 --> 00:26:32,239 I think she wrote some great things, 387 00:26:33,047 --> 00:26:36,562 on the suffering of the dominant. 388 00:26:37,807 --> 00:26:41,322 Since a great feminist had said it, so could I. 389 00:26:42,247 --> 00:26:44,761 There is a sentence by Marx which applies very well to men. 390 00:26:44,927 --> 00:26:48,715 Marx said, "The dominant is dominated by his domination." 391 00:26:48,927 --> 00:26:52,078 It's a beautiful sentence. I think that the masculine dominant 392 00:26:53,407 --> 00:26:56,956 in a country like this where things are a question of honour, 393 00:26:57,127 --> 00:27:01,917 I think that men suffer from this male chauvinism, 394 00:27:03,527 --> 00:27:08,043 from this duty to be virile, which is a terrible burden. 395 00:27:08,207 --> 00:27:11,199 - You think so? Are you a male chauvinist yourself? 396 00:27:11,367 --> 00:27:12,516 I don't think so. 397 00:27:13,327 --> 00:27:15,966 But it is a heavy burden. 398 00:27:17,007 --> 00:27:21,444 If you made a list of all the things men have to do 399 00:27:22,207 --> 00:27:24,118 for themselves, and so on, 400 00:27:24,287 --> 00:27:27,404 which bother them, it would be a very long list. 401 00:27:28,727 --> 00:27:30,285 War, for example. 402 00:27:31,007 --> 00:27:34,920 In traditional societies, war is a man's job. 403 00:27:37,167 --> 00:27:39,362 One criticism laid at your door 404 00:27:39,527 --> 00:27:41,995 is that you comment more on masculine values 405 00:27:42,167 --> 00:27:44,044 than on feminine values. 406 00:27:44,207 --> 00:27:48,041 Can you sum up the values of the "eternal feminine" for me? 407 00:27:48,207 --> 00:27:50,437 What are women's values? 408 00:27:50,607 --> 00:27:53,360 Here again, that's something that I don't want to do because... 409 00:27:53,527 --> 00:27:55,597 I never say "masculine values". 410 00:27:55,767 --> 00:27:57,837 - Not as a sociologist, as a man. - As a man? 411 00:27:59,967 --> 00:28:01,605 That's a very difficult problem. 412 00:28:01,767 --> 00:28:05,043 I'm very fond of what are known as "feminine values". 413 00:28:05,487 --> 00:28:11,084 But we must not forget that they're largely the product of masculine domination. 414 00:28:12,007 --> 00:28:14,157 - They're not women's own values? - Yes... no... 415 00:28:14,567 --> 00:28:17,206 They're not part of women's nature. 416 00:28:17,367 --> 00:28:22,122 In the current state of affairs, women have properties 417 00:28:22,287 --> 00:28:25,484 that I find far more attractive than men's. 418 00:28:25,847 --> 00:28:27,565 As a matter of personal preference. 419 00:28:27,727 --> 00:28:30,764 - Properties? - Characteristics. 420 00:28:30,927 --> 00:28:33,885 They're more modest, more discreet, 421 00:28:34,047 --> 00:28:37,119 more intuitive, more caring... 422 00:28:37,287 --> 00:28:40,085 they take more interest in others, they... 423 00:28:46,207 --> 00:28:50,325 What I should say is, "They're more likely to be such." 424 00:28:50,607 --> 00:28:54,122 One should always think statistically, it's more precise. 425 00:28:54,447 --> 00:28:58,406 They are more likely to possess those qualities than a man is, 426 00:28:59,767 --> 00:29:01,758 everything else being equal. And that's fine. 427 00:29:02,007 --> 00:29:05,124 Also, they're more likely to be docile at school. 428 00:29:05,287 --> 00:29:08,404 Docile, from the Latin docilis, for "willing to learn". 429 00:29:09,687 --> 00:29:11,917 In French, docile also means "subjugated", 430 00:29:12,727 --> 00:29:15,321 "gentle", one who does not rebel. 431 00:29:16,487 --> 00:29:20,560 A question on happiness. You've discussed it several times. 432 00:29:20,967 --> 00:29:24,118 What should one do to be... happy? 433 00:29:25,087 --> 00:29:26,281 Happy? That, I don't know. 434 00:29:27,967 --> 00:29:30,276 - In truth, I have no answer to that. - No? 435 00:29:30,647 --> 00:29:33,923 So a sociologist can't answer that, 436 00:29:34,087 --> 00:29:37,477 can give no hope, can only point out the laws? 437 00:29:38,407 --> 00:29:42,525 He can give some answers, but as a matter of personal opinion 438 00:29:42,687 --> 00:29:44,279 not as a sociologist. 439 00:29:44,647 --> 00:29:46,285 Your personal opinion, then? 440 00:29:47,807 --> 00:29:51,197 We could talk for hours... 441 00:29:51,367 --> 00:29:53,756 Well, as a personal opinion. 442 00:29:56,087 --> 00:29:58,521 One must do 443 00:29:58,807 --> 00:30:03,039 what little one can to change things. 444 00:30:05,847 --> 00:30:08,236 Yes, I think that's it. 445 00:30:09,327 --> 00:30:12,478 We all have a small margin of freedom, 446 00:30:13,607 --> 00:30:18,283 so each of us must do what little he or she can do 447 00:30:21,367 --> 00:30:25,155 to escape the laws, the necessities, the determinisms. 448 00:30:27,887 --> 00:30:30,003 I could go on for some time. 449 00:30:31,847 --> 00:30:33,326 Thank you very much. 450 00:30:50,087 --> 00:30:52,157 Here we go, so 'The Balcony'... 451 00:30:52,327 --> 00:30:54,124 1868, 452 00:30:55,407 --> 00:31:00,037 Just for the record, this is the first painting I ever saw. 453 00:31:00,607 --> 00:31:03,075 I was a little boy, in an issue of the magazine L'IIlustration, 454 00:31:03,247 --> 00:31:05,397 there was a reproduction of 'The Balcony', 455 00:31:05,567 --> 00:31:08,400 which has remained dear to me ever since. 456 00:31:08,767 --> 00:31:12,237 It surprised me greatly then to see the world portrayed this way. 457 00:31:12,487 --> 00:31:16,400 I'll have to be quick. We don't have much time left. 458 00:31:16,767 --> 00:31:21,477 I won't talk about the thing I could have gone on about for hours, 459 00:31:21,647 --> 00:31:23,842 which is 'A Bar at the Folies-Bergéres'. 460 00:31:25,687 --> 00:31:28,724 I'm going to rush through this a bit, too bad... 461 00:31:29,087 --> 00:31:31,521 'Le chemin de fer' [The Railroad], there. 462 00:31:31,687 --> 00:31:34,247 This demands a formalist reading. 463 00:31:34,527 --> 00:31:36,119 At first glance, the railings 464 00:31:36,327 --> 00:31:38,363 which materialize the composition. 465 00:31:38,607 --> 00:31:41,440 But what I also find interesting 466 00:31:41,607 --> 00:31:44,485 is that the railings divide social space. 467 00:31:45,087 --> 00:31:48,636 Here, we are on the side of the bourgeois flaneurs, 468 00:31:48,887 --> 00:31:51,321 the woman is reading a book sitting down, with a little girl... 469 00:31:51,487 --> 00:31:53,398 Is she a governess? 470 00:31:53,567 --> 00:31:55,683 In any case, we're in the world of the bourgeoisie. 471 00:31:55,887 --> 00:32:00,005 The railings separate us from the world of work, on the other side. 472 00:32:00,167 --> 00:32:03,762 It's not just a figure of speech, it's for real. 473 00:32:04,287 --> 00:32:08,041 And we have the destruction of the maternal figure 474 00:32:08,207 --> 00:32:11,438 in this depiction of a mother - if that's what she is - 475 00:32:11,607 --> 00:32:14,041 who is distracted, looking elsewhere, 476 00:32:14,207 --> 00:32:15,925 maybe watching a passer-by. 477 00:32:16,847 --> 00:32:20,442 But she's not engrossed in her role as a mother. 478 00:32:21,007 --> 00:32:22,884 That's a feminist reading, 479 00:32:23,047 --> 00:32:25,515 I didn't find this on my own, 480 00:32:25,687 --> 00:32:27,803 but I think it's a very accurate reading. 481 00:32:28,407 --> 00:32:34,437 So you can see how my theoretical model works here... 482 00:32:34,607 --> 00:32:37,724 That you should always think of a painting 483 00:32:37,887 --> 00:32:40,879 in relation to the space of paintings that were painted then. 484 00:32:41,687 --> 00:32:45,999 Doing something one way is always not doing it the way others would, 485 00:32:47,647 --> 00:32:52,198 but without necessarily trying to stand out. To understand what someone does 486 00:32:52,447 --> 00:32:56,486 you have to understand what that person is not doing, too. 487 00:32:56,647 --> 00:32:59,525 It's that simple. This is a teaching of structuralism. 488 00:32:59,687 --> 00:33:03,680 To understand a phoneme, you must place it in a system of phonemes. 489 00:33:04,047 --> 00:33:08,245 Having said that, I come to the painting by Manet. 490 00:33:09,607 --> 00:33:11,962 Very quickly, in substance, 491 00:33:12,127 --> 00:33:13,560 he is responding to a series of challenges. 492 00:33:14,407 --> 00:33:18,446 He constructs himself in opposition to the academies, to romanticism, 493 00:33:18,607 --> 00:33:21,246 against Delacroix who copied him, against tradition, 494 00:33:21,407 --> 00:33:24,797 and in the end even in opposition to impressionism. 495 00:33:24,967 --> 00:33:28,801 He spends his time "getting free" as we say in football, 496 00:33:29,367 --> 00:33:32,962 But not with the purpose of distinguishing himself. 497 00:33:33,127 --> 00:33:34,799 Not at all. 498 00:33:34,967 --> 00:33:37,322 He distinguishes himself as a bonus. 499 00:33:40,007 --> 00:33:43,283 Yes, that gives the publication date of the work. 500 00:33:44,087 --> 00:33:46,043 Or of the review. 501 00:33:46,207 --> 00:33:48,163 No, it's the date of the review. 502 00:33:50,607 --> 00:33:52,916 Martin du Gard, that's earlier, Maulnier, earlier... 503 00:33:53,087 --> 00:33:55,362 Mauriac Claude, no, Pagnol, earlier, 504 00:33:55,887 --> 00:33:58,003 Suarés, earlier, Yourcenar, later... 505 00:34:02,967 --> 00:34:05,606 Faye, later, Guillou, I'm not quite sure about that one. 506 00:34:06,287 --> 00:34:08,801 Mauriac, Grasset, 507 00:34:08,967 --> 00:34:10,480 Fayard... 508 00:34:11,967 --> 00:34:14,356 What the hell is this? 509 00:34:14,527 --> 00:34:17,803 There's no mention of Beckett or Simon. 510 00:34:22,767 --> 00:34:25,486 There's no Beckett or Simon and we... 511 00:34:28,727 --> 00:34:32,083 - Aie-aie-aie... - Wait, maybe we lost... 512 00:34:34,087 --> 00:34:35,759 Do I have to do everything myself? 513 00:34:35,927 --> 00:34:38,395 No, and don't pretend you do! 514 00:34:39,607 --> 00:34:42,724 Oh, she's horrible! You see how she uses... 515 00:34:43,287 --> 00:34:45,801 She's horrible! 516 00:34:45,967 --> 00:34:48,765 I'm going to work with someone 517 00:34:48,927 --> 00:34:51,725 who's less crafty, less twisted, to give a better image. 518 00:34:51,887 --> 00:34:54,481 You don't mind that it's the 1984 edition? 519 00:34:54,647 --> 00:34:57,559 No, damn it! It's the only one we've got. 520 00:34:57,727 --> 00:35:01,356 - There must be more recent ones. - Well, we don't have them. 521 00:35:01,807 --> 00:35:06,164 My hypothesis is that those people who are here, with high Jurt values... 522 00:35:06,327 --> 00:35:08,079 A letter from Godard. 523 00:35:12,807 --> 00:35:14,877 Ah? Many thanks. Do you need a reply? 524 00:35:15,047 --> 00:35:18,084 - No, I don't think so. - Thanks. 525 00:35:18,527 --> 00:35:20,279 Who from? Jean-Luc Godard? 526 00:35:20,687 --> 00:35:22,803 Pulling out all the stops, hum? 527 00:35:33,127 --> 00:35:35,595 Very mysterious, like all his work. 528 00:35:36,367 --> 00:35:38,835 These are excerpts from his film. 529 00:35:39,567 --> 00:35:41,876 - You know... - 'Histoire(s) du Cinéma' 530 00:35:42,127 --> 00:35:45,722 Histoire(s) with an "s". 531 00:36:03,767 --> 00:36:06,679 He does have talent, you have to say. 532 00:36:15,807 --> 00:36:17,638 I don't understand a thing. 533 00:36:20,367 --> 00:36:24,758 It's annoying. It's rather beautiful but I don't understand a thing. 534 00:36:28,727 --> 00:36:30,479 I'm no poet! 535 00:36:32,607 --> 00:36:36,566 It's true that poetry is another way of perceiving things, intuitively. 536 00:36:36,727 --> 00:36:39,764 I think that he means something, I don't suspect... 537 00:36:40,087 --> 00:36:42,396 He definitely means something. 538 00:36:47,887 --> 00:36:52,438 There's a bus with a poster "My Girl". 539 00:36:55,687 --> 00:36:57,040 And he says, 540 00:36:57,207 --> 00:37:00,802 "I wondered, looking at this document showing people in public transport, 541 00:37:01,047 --> 00:37:04,756 "if we are indeed both seeing the same thing and if, consequently, 542 00:37:04,927 --> 00:37:09,079 "we could later claim to try to tell the same story, the true story. 543 00:37:09,327 --> 00:37:14,401 "It seems - alas for us and too many Kosovars - that we can't. 544 00:37:14,567 --> 00:37:17,923 "My Girl" will tell you: The romantic rendez-vous with truth 545 00:37:18,847 --> 00:37:19,882 "was ill-prepared. 546 00:37:20,047 --> 00:37:23,164 "Gone with the wind, as gossips say. 547 00:37:24,287 --> 00:37:27,324 "Goodnight, you sleepers. This high-minded film 548 00:37:27,487 --> 00:37:30,797 "in which most of us didn't hear what you describe 549 00:37:31,367 --> 00:37:34,404 "as - undo the name - political discourse..." 550 00:37:38,287 --> 00:37:39,515 There! 551 00:37:40,007 --> 00:37:44,523 "...as - undo the name - political discourse..." 552 00:37:45,487 --> 00:37:46,715 What do you make of that? 553 00:37:46,887 --> 00:37:48,400 Not much really... 554 00:37:49,487 --> 00:37:50,966 but I haven't read the whole letter. 555 00:37:51,127 --> 00:37:54,244 But that's all there is. There's nothing more, I read it all. 556 00:37:54,407 --> 00:37:55,886 He's testing you. 557 00:37:56,047 --> 00:37:59,722 If you don't understand the same thing he does, you won't be able... 558 00:37:59,887 --> 00:38:02,321 No, I understood that bit. 559 00:38:02,527 --> 00:38:05,837 But afterwards, when he says... Well, whatever! 560 00:38:07,807 --> 00:38:10,879 You'll be talking past each other at this lunch meeting... 561 00:38:11,047 --> 00:38:12,685 From the word go. 562 00:38:17,847 --> 00:38:19,041 It's tough... 563 00:38:23,887 --> 00:38:25,479 Poor old Bourdieu! 564 00:38:39,287 --> 00:38:42,085 No, if you do that I'll be intimidated. 565 00:38:42,247 --> 00:38:44,966 It will be awful... No, you have to be careful. 566 00:38:45,447 --> 00:38:47,039 Shy people are intimidating. 567 00:38:47,207 --> 00:38:50,438 When you're shy, you make others shy. 568 00:38:50,607 --> 00:38:52,598 - Shall we do it? - Very well. 569 00:38:54,367 --> 00:38:57,200 Could we see that again? 570 00:39:00,567 --> 00:39:05,402 That's when I was teaching, in 1954. 571 00:39:06,647 --> 00:39:09,400 I was teaching philosophy. 572 00:39:10,927 --> 00:39:12,519 At the Ecole normale? 573 00:39:12,687 --> 00:39:16,362 No, it was my first year as a teacher in high school. 574 00:39:16,527 --> 00:39:19,041 The pupils were almost the same age as me. 575 00:39:19,207 --> 00:39:21,323 That's in 1968 but I don't remember exactly... 576 00:39:22,847 --> 00:39:24,963 Next there's a public statement 577 00:39:26,247 --> 00:39:28,363 on the right to civil disobedience. 578 00:39:28,527 --> 00:39:30,836 Yes, regarding the Algerian war. 579 00:39:31,247 --> 00:39:33,363 Had you already been drafted? 580 00:39:33,527 --> 00:39:36,121 Yes I was already in Algeria, I had already been drafted. 581 00:39:36,327 --> 00:39:39,956 - Must have been in the 1960s. - Did you do any research? 582 00:39:40,127 --> 00:39:45,520 That's right. I was in Algeria from about 1955 to 1962. 583 00:39:54,327 --> 00:39:58,240 - And this one, a long time ago... - Yes I'm a lot younger there. 584 00:39:59,247 --> 00:40:00,760 I was cuter, too. 585 00:40:00,927 --> 00:40:03,077 See why I don't like to be photographed now? 586 00:40:04,327 --> 00:40:06,363 And this is you with the unemployed there. 587 00:40:06,527 --> 00:40:08,165 That's right. 588 00:40:12,487 --> 00:40:16,366 Why did you do that? 589 00:40:16,527 --> 00:40:19,644 - As encouragement? - Yes, as encouragement. 590 00:40:20,727 --> 00:40:24,356 It was an interesting movement. I wanted to be there. 591 00:40:24,527 --> 00:40:25,801 Look at that! 592 00:40:25,967 --> 00:40:28,925 That's the rugby team. 593 00:40:29,367 --> 00:40:30,880 It's in Paris. 594 00:40:35,847 --> 00:40:39,123 - That's me. - Right. 595 00:40:39,287 --> 00:40:43,883 What position did you play? 596 00:40:44,047 --> 00:40:46,242 Stand-off. 597 00:40:47,407 --> 00:40:49,284 Shall I write it down? 598 00:40:50,807 --> 00:40:52,638 Shall we stop now? Thanks. 599 00:40:57,327 --> 00:40:59,602 1942, there, I'd been granted a state scholarship. 600 00:41:00,847 --> 00:41:03,680 - This was to go to Paris already? - No. 601 00:41:03,847 --> 00:41:06,759 It was for the high school in Pau. 602 00:41:06,927 --> 00:41:08,679 - In Pau. - Yes. 603 00:41:08,847 --> 00:41:12,203 And then I got a scholarship all through university. 604 00:41:14,847 --> 00:41:18,396 In the 19th century there was this rivalry between the inheritors 605 00:41:18,567 --> 00:41:22,196 and the scholarship boys. In the struggles among writers, 606 00:41:22,567 --> 00:41:27,561 to infer that someone was dim-witted, you said he was a scholarship boy. 607 00:41:27,767 --> 00:41:29,405 I was in the camp of the scholarship boys. 608 00:41:29,567 --> 00:41:31,364 On a scholarship. 609 00:41:31,807 --> 00:41:34,321 Sociologists are always on the wrong track! 610 00:41:34,567 --> 00:41:36,046 Thank you. 611 00:41:41,767 --> 00:41:45,157 I suffer a lot from the isolation. 612 00:41:45,327 --> 00:41:49,036 You're lucky in France, there's so much going on. 613 00:41:49,207 --> 00:41:54,156 Belgium is a small country, which is completely dependent 614 00:41:54,527 --> 00:41:57,041 because of its finance structure. 615 00:41:57,207 --> 00:42:01,758 So, in 1981, owing to the Thatcher effect, 616 00:42:01,927 --> 00:42:05,636 the right-wing government dismantled all the structures 617 00:42:05,807 --> 00:42:07,604 for funding research. 618 00:42:07,767 --> 00:42:11,965 We depend almost entirely on money from the Commission, from Europe. 619 00:42:12,327 --> 00:42:15,922 As for the national budget... Well, I'm a political scientist, 620 00:42:16,087 --> 00:42:19,841 I earn a monthly wage, and I'm lucky to have that. 621 00:42:20,047 --> 00:42:22,766 But I have absolutely no means for research. 622 00:42:22,927 --> 00:42:26,556 I pay for my phone calls. You can call me 623 00:42:26,727 --> 00:42:29,400 but if I call you, I have to pay for it myself. 624 00:42:29,567 --> 00:42:31,717 My pens, my paper... 625 00:42:32,127 --> 00:42:35,119 So it's back to the way things used to be in Belgium. 626 00:42:35,287 --> 00:42:36,879 To be an intellectual, 627 00:42:37,047 --> 00:42:39,800 to be an autonomous thinker, you have to be well-to-do, 628 00:42:40,087 --> 00:42:43,204 someone with means, and you have to fund yourself. 629 00:42:43,807 --> 00:42:45,160 Independently wealthy. 630 00:42:45,327 --> 00:42:48,603 I've been saying to my students for over ten years now, 631 00:42:48,767 --> 00:42:52,316 "You are like artists were twenty years ago." 632 00:42:52,647 --> 00:42:54,524 You needed daddy's money, 633 00:42:54,687 --> 00:42:57,918 or a wife who's working to support you. 634 00:42:58,367 --> 00:43:01,086 That's what being a sociologist means today. 635 00:43:01,247 --> 00:43:03,203 Unless you produce sociology for the powers that be. 636 00:43:03,367 --> 00:43:05,323 If you do sociology 637 00:43:06,207 --> 00:43:09,165 which answers the dominant social demands, 638 00:43:09,327 --> 00:43:10,760 you can make a living. 639 00:43:10,927 --> 00:43:14,237 There are positions with the National Centre for Scientific Research etc... 640 00:43:14,487 --> 00:43:16,717 And there is research funding. 641 00:43:16,887 --> 00:43:18,923 But if you want to do sociology, 642 00:43:19,087 --> 00:43:22,363 not critical sociology, just plain rigorous sociology, 643 00:43:22,527 --> 00:43:24,085 well, you have to know that you're like an artist. 644 00:43:24,247 --> 00:43:27,239 You have to buy your own pencils, pens, erasers, 645 00:43:27,767 --> 00:43:29,803 your personal computer and so on. 646 00:43:30,367 --> 00:43:32,403 I have to go now. 647 00:43:33,207 --> 00:43:35,641 Let's do it this way: If you have stuff, send it to me. 648 00:43:36,567 --> 00:43:41,482 On my side, if there are meetings, I'll let you know. 649 00:43:41,687 --> 00:43:45,521 When your work has advanced, let me know 650 00:43:45,687 --> 00:43:49,077 and I'll quickly try to organise something 651 00:43:50,007 --> 00:43:51,725 with people working along the same lines. 652 00:43:51,887 --> 00:43:53,286 Fine. 653 00:43:53,447 --> 00:43:56,325 I'm glad we've finally met 654 00:43:56,487 --> 00:43:59,684 because you're the one who gave me the research bug 15 years ago. 655 00:43:59,847 --> 00:44:02,156 It's a famous paternity. 656 00:44:02,887 --> 00:44:04,798 It's nice of you to say that. 657 00:44:04,967 --> 00:44:06,161 See you soon. 658 00:44:06,327 --> 00:44:08,921 Goodbye, and see you soon. 659 00:44:10,007 --> 00:44:12,567 After 2 years of left-wing government, the rich are richer 660 00:44:12,727 --> 00:44:15,195 and the poor are more numerous. 661 00:44:20,567 --> 00:44:22,523 Okay, one more question? 662 00:44:22,687 --> 00:44:24,439 Do you use... 663 00:44:24,647 --> 00:44:27,844 Do you base your work mainly on your personal experience? 664 00:44:28,967 --> 00:44:32,721 Not mainly, but it does play a role. 665 00:44:33,047 --> 00:44:35,880 But it's not raw personal experience. 666 00:44:36,047 --> 00:44:40,563 I know what I thought 30 years ago and I know what I think now. 667 00:44:43,127 --> 00:44:47,518 My personal experience sensitizes me to things that others wouldn't notice, 668 00:44:50,727 --> 00:44:54,720 makes me nervous or irate at things that others would find normal. 669 00:44:57,007 --> 00:44:58,486 So it plays a role... 670 00:44:58,647 --> 00:45:02,686 But let me not answer about me, Let's take the example of Foucault. 671 00:45:02,847 --> 00:45:08,638 Foucault is one of the greatest contemporary philosophers, 672 00:45:08,807 --> 00:45:13,642 who did a lot of very important works in several domains. 673 00:45:14,487 --> 00:45:17,718 In the United States some people got annoyed 674 00:45:18,927 --> 00:45:21,043 by Foucault's subversive actions. 675 00:45:21,207 --> 00:45:25,962 Foucault became an idol on American campuses, 676 00:45:26,127 --> 00:45:29,597 and that annoyed conservatives of all sorts, 677 00:45:29,767 --> 00:45:31,723 academic conservatives, 678 00:45:31,887 --> 00:45:33,559 but also political conservatives... 679 00:45:33,727 --> 00:45:37,003 Cultural conservatives as well as political conservatives. 680 00:45:37,407 --> 00:45:41,764 So these people wanted to demolish Foucault, 681 00:45:42,527 --> 00:45:45,883 There is a book entitled 'Saint Foucault'. 682 00:45:46,047 --> 00:45:50,518 So some people idolised him and others wanted to demolish him. 683 00:45:50,687 --> 00:45:54,566 They called him a sado-masochist pervert, a homosexual, and so on... 684 00:45:55,687 --> 00:45:58,326 In short, they tried to deduce the whole of Foucault's thinking 685 00:46:01,487 --> 00:46:06,003 from his sexual orientation, from his particular sexual tastes. 686 00:46:09,927 --> 00:46:12,202 Now, it's true that to understand what Foucault did, 687 00:46:12,367 --> 00:46:15,404 you have to understand that he was homosexual. 688 00:46:15,607 --> 00:46:19,885 He wouldn't have done what he did if he hadn't been homosexual. 689 00:46:20,047 --> 00:46:22,242 Many of the problems he had... 690 00:46:22,407 --> 00:46:26,878 If you're interested, read Didier Eribon's biography, 691 00:46:27,247 --> 00:46:31,604 which was published by Fayard a few years ago. 692 00:46:32,127 --> 00:46:34,880 When he was a student, he once tried to commit suicide. 693 00:46:35,047 --> 00:46:39,086 He had major problems related to his homosexuality, 694 00:46:39,247 --> 00:46:42,205 something which at the time was highly stigmatised, 695 00:46:42,367 --> 00:46:45,006 even among intellectuals. 696 00:46:45,567 --> 00:46:48,525 I think that many of the questions that he posed 697 00:46:48,687 --> 00:46:51,838 about normality, medicine and so on, 698 00:46:52,087 --> 00:46:54,521 are related to problems he had encountered as a homosexual. 699 00:46:54,727 --> 00:46:58,515 But there are many homosexuals and there is only one Foucault. 700 00:46:58,807 --> 00:47:03,278 What he did was to transform his existential problems, 701 00:47:03,447 --> 00:47:07,918 his suffering and his questions, as a homosexual, 702 00:47:08,087 --> 00:47:11,477 he transformed them into scientific problems. 703 00:47:11,807 --> 00:47:13,684 He fought all his life 704 00:47:13,847 --> 00:47:16,919 to elaborate, to... 705 00:47:18,207 --> 00:47:22,997 In other words, it's not raw homosexuality that produces good philosophy. 706 00:47:23,167 --> 00:47:26,364 In the same way, it's not raw experience, whatever it may be, 707 00:47:26,607 --> 00:47:28,677 that yields good sociology. 708 00:47:28,847 --> 00:47:32,635 The problem is how to work on one's own experience 709 00:47:32,807 --> 00:47:34,320 to make something of it. 710 00:47:34,647 --> 00:47:37,115 I think I'll stop there. 711 00:47:37,527 --> 00:47:42,078 As I always say, you have to carry out a reflexive analysis. 712 00:47:42,887 --> 00:47:46,084 Sociologists have to do a sociology of themselves, 713 00:47:47,007 --> 00:47:48,918 carry out a socioanalysis of themselves. 714 00:47:49,087 --> 00:47:52,875 That's very important. It's only by socio-analysing 715 00:47:53,047 --> 00:47:55,515 one's own experience, 716 00:47:55,687 --> 00:47:58,042 that one may use it sociologically. 717 00:47:58,847 --> 00:48:02,760 The very work of research is a socio-analysis. 718 00:48:03,567 --> 00:48:05,683 Things come back to you, but they are transformed in the process. 719 00:48:07,727 --> 00:48:11,003 You learn a lot about yourself 720 00:48:11,167 --> 00:48:14,364 by studying the educational system. 721 00:48:14,687 --> 00:48:18,965 By studying that, a teacher learns more about his unconscious, 722 00:48:19,127 --> 00:48:22,403 than by studying the works of Freud. 723 00:48:25,087 --> 00:48:27,521 Right, we'll end it there, for good now. 724 00:48:30,047 --> 00:48:31,560 You've been very kind. 725 00:48:44,087 --> 00:48:46,157 You could do one thing for me. 726 00:48:48,007 --> 00:48:51,124 You'd be very kind if you would write and tell me, 727 00:48:51,287 --> 00:48:53,118 individually or collectively, 728 00:48:53,487 --> 00:48:58,163 what you didn't dare tell me here today. 729 00:49:25,727 --> 00:49:29,163 Yes? I'm busy now. I'll call you back. 730 00:49:35,327 --> 00:49:36,316 - Ready? - Yes. 731 00:49:36,927 --> 00:49:41,205 So there is a capital of knowledge about the social world 732 00:49:43,287 --> 00:49:46,563 that you inherit from your milieu, from your social background. 733 00:49:46,727 --> 00:49:48,524 It's like I said earlier, 734 00:49:48,687 --> 00:49:51,565 it's not sufficient to practise sociology 735 00:49:52,647 --> 00:49:56,845 but it's a start if you know how to turn it into scientific problematics, 736 00:49:57,007 --> 00:49:58,759 into caveats, etc. 737 00:49:58,927 --> 00:50:01,316 My own social experience, which was a bit of this kind, 738 00:50:01,487 --> 00:50:03,478 the world I knew, 739 00:50:04,767 --> 00:50:08,806 was not the Parisian intellectual world. 740 00:50:09,127 --> 00:50:12,437 And this was reinforced by my experiences in Algeria, 741 00:50:12,967 --> 00:50:16,846 where I carried out research in dangerous situations. 742 00:50:19,927 --> 00:50:22,885 It happened two or three times, the answer I gave determined whether 743 00:50:23,047 --> 00:50:25,515 I would come out dead or alive, 744 00:50:25,967 --> 00:50:28,162 also how I asked the question. 745 00:50:28,447 --> 00:50:31,359 I had no other protection in a civil war, a war of liberation, 746 00:50:31,687 --> 00:50:35,600 I had no protection other than my demeanour and my wits, 747 00:50:35,767 --> 00:50:38,759 my way of doing things and being careful. 748 00:50:40,047 --> 00:50:41,799 And this I believe taught me a lot. 749 00:50:41,967 --> 00:50:44,197 You can read methodology books 750 00:50:44,367 --> 00:50:48,121 there are lots of essential things they don't mention. 751 00:50:48,447 --> 00:50:50,278 That's how I learnt, 752 00:50:50,487 --> 00:50:52,955 because you had to watch out for everything. 753 00:50:53,127 --> 00:50:57,757 We had almost metaphysical discussions about what it means 754 00:50:57,967 --> 00:50:59,446 to produce science in this context. 755 00:50:59,607 --> 00:51:02,644 Every day we'd be confronted with problems. 756 00:51:02,807 --> 00:51:06,356 Well, that will help you get a good head on your shoulders, 757 00:51:06,887 --> 00:51:08,036 it makes you think an awful lot. 758 00:51:08,207 --> 00:51:13,918 I think I've lived off the huge capital of knowledge... 759 00:51:14,087 --> 00:51:15,759 I aged very quickly, 760 00:51:17,087 --> 00:51:20,477 compared to a young sociologist doing his quiet bit of research 761 00:51:20,647 --> 00:51:22,319 on, say, teachers 762 00:51:23,927 --> 00:51:25,679 in a high school. 763 00:51:28,247 --> 00:51:29,839 I aged a lot. 764 00:51:30,367 --> 00:51:34,679 And so a lot of questions came out of that, 765 00:51:34,847 --> 00:51:36,246 a lot. 766 00:51:36,407 --> 00:51:39,046 So I've lived on the capital, 767 00:51:40,767 --> 00:51:45,318 not of ideas but of questions, that I collected at that time. 768 00:51:46,727 --> 00:51:48,718 I think that it was important. 769 00:51:48,887 --> 00:51:51,526 Now, obviously, the other thing, I add this, 770 00:51:51,687 --> 00:51:53,882 it think it will fit your purpose very well... 771 00:51:54,567 --> 00:51:57,445 I had the idea, because I was studying the region of Kabylia 772 00:51:57,607 --> 00:52:00,075 and I saw many analogies with the Béarn 773 00:52:00,247 --> 00:52:03,319 in terms of family structures, relationships between the sexes... 774 00:52:03,687 --> 00:52:07,202 And I thought, "In order not to use my experience 775 00:52:07,367 --> 00:52:09,403 "in an uncontrolled manner, 776 00:52:09,647 --> 00:52:11,603 "I must go and study my own village in the same way 777 00:52:14,527 --> 00:52:15,562 I studied Kabylia." 778 00:52:15,727 --> 00:52:19,845 I had two objectives: First to control this experience, 779 00:52:20,007 --> 00:52:22,999 but also, to study what it means 780 00:52:23,167 --> 00:52:25,761 to go from folk experience 781 00:52:26,407 --> 00:52:29,001 to scholarly experience. 782 00:52:29,167 --> 00:52:33,285 It was around the time Lévi-Strauss had done 'Tristes Tropiques'. 783 00:52:33,447 --> 00:52:35,722 Everyone was reading it. 784 00:52:35,887 --> 00:52:37,559 I said, "I'll do an inverted 'Tristes tropiques'. 785 00:52:37,727 --> 00:52:40,241 "I'm going to return home, 786 00:52:40,927 --> 00:52:43,236 "instead of going far away, 787 00:52:43,407 --> 00:52:47,002 "I'm going to do research in my home village, 788 00:52:47,167 --> 00:52:50,204 "in the least exotic place. I will make the banal exotic." 789 00:52:50,367 --> 00:52:52,517 So I interviewed old buddies of mine, 790 00:52:52,767 --> 00:52:56,282 And very often I knew the answers, I knew the answers. 791 00:52:56,447 --> 00:52:59,803 So what is going on here? What does it mean to ask a question 792 00:52:59,967 --> 00:53:01,320 when you know the answer? 793 00:53:01,487 --> 00:53:05,765 It means that in other cases you ask without knowing the answer. 794 00:53:06,527 --> 00:53:08,518 So that got me thinking a lot. 795 00:53:10,047 --> 00:53:12,322 I realised quickly that these guys 796 00:53:13,007 --> 00:53:15,965 knew the essential, they knew how to explain it. 797 00:53:16,447 --> 00:53:21,237 But they didn't know it like I did. It's not the same to know abstractly 798 00:53:21,967 --> 00:53:25,198 that, okay, girls no longer want to stay in the countryside, etc. 799 00:53:25,367 --> 00:53:27,437 Anyway, it got me thinking a lot 800 00:53:28,127 --> 00:53:32,086 about the two things, about being an anthropologist and... 801 00:53:32,247 --> 00:53:36,001 Another thing, although I could go on here, 802 00:53:36,167 --> 00:53:39,682 is that when you come from a lower-class background, 803 00:53:39,847 --> 00:53:43,840 from a culturally dominated region you necessarily feel cultural shame. 804 00:53:44,007 --> 00:53:46,362 I was ashamed of my accent, which I had corrected 805 00:53:46,527 --> 00:53:47,926 when I went to the Ecole normale... 806 00:53:48,087 --> 00:53:50,840 When I went back South to my home - Pierre Carles will understand - 807 00:53:51,007 --> 00:53:54,920 when I got to Dax and I heard the accent, I was horrified! 808 00:53:55,087 --> 00:53:58,602 Even today, certain accents make me physically ill. 809 00:53:58,767 --> 00:54:00,564 And yet it is the accent that I had. 810 00:54:01,247 --> 00:54:05,445 Recently on the radio I heard Tillinac, a pro-Chirac writer 811 00:54:05,807 --> 00:54:08,958 who has an accent from Brive. I felt like killing him! 812 00:54:09,127 --> 00:54:12,039 I was sickened, and not just by what he was saying. 813 00:54:12,247 --> 00:54:15,478 Here's a true form of symbolic violence. 814 00:54:16,687 --> 00:54:18,757 I remember another time, it was in Toulouse, 815 00:54:18,927 --> 00:54:22,602 I heard this fellow, who sang avant-garde poetry 816 00:54:22,767 --> 00:54:25,440 with a Toulouse accent. It was horrible, horrible. 817 00:54:25,607 --> 00:54:26,960 He was going, "Oh Toulooooose!" 818 00:54:27,127 --> 00:54:29,083 It was downright horrible. 819 00:54:29,247 --> 00:54:32,557 I shouldn't react this way, it's my job to understand this, 820 00:54:32,727 --> 00:54:36,515 it's my own accent, and yet I experience this as atrocious. 821 00:54:36,687 --> 00:54:40,123 But you just can't sing avant-garde poetry with that accent! 822 00:54:41,047 --> 00:54:45,006 The Occitan activists are going to kill me. Oh, well! 823 00:54:45,207 --> 00:54:47,801 Can I cut in a bit 824 00:54:48,367 --> 00:54:52,201 to make it easier for you? 825 00:54:54,327 --> 00:54:57,205 It depends. If I'm following a line of thought 826 00:54:57,367 --> 00:54:59,756 I'll be worried you'll cut in 827 00:54:59,927 --> 00:55:01,758 when I'm onto something. 828 00:55:01,927 --> 00:55:04,236 But at other times, yes. 829 00:55:04,407 --> 00:55:08,958 Because you've just answered several questions, 830 00:55:09,287 --> 00:55:12,757 including some I haven't even asked. 831 00:55:12,927 --> 00:55:13,803 I know, I know. 832 00:55:13,967 --> 00:55:16,720 That way I can ask them later. 833 00:55:16,887 --> 00:55:19,447 I know. But what's happening is, 834 00:55:19,607 --> 00:55:21,359 I'll start on something, 835 00:55:21,527 --> 00:55:25,440 then I have to go all the way to get back to the starting point. 836 00:55:25,607 --> 00:55:28,121 So it's not easy to... 837 00:55:28,287 --> 00:55:31,882 I've got some... It's the same. 838 00:55:32,447 --> 00:55:34,597 - You can have mine, there. - Thank you. 839 00:55:37,527 --> 00:55:40,758 - Let's change the subject. - Yes, let's move on. 840 00:55:41,167 --> 00:55:42,725 We'll talk about women. 841 00:55:43,487 --> 00:55:45,523 The concept of symbolic violence 842 00:55:46,367 --> 00:55:49,006 is one that you use. 843 00:55:50,007 --> 00:55:52,077 Could you talk a bit about that? 844 00:55:53,527 --> 00:55:55,165 Yes, well... 845 00:55:55,807 --> 00:55:57,684 Yes, masculine domination. 846 00:55:57,847 --> 00:56:00,236 In fact, there's the problem of sexuality 847 00:56:00,447 --> 00:56:01,800 and that of domination. 848 00:56:01,967 --> 00:56:05,596 For example, there's a fine piece of research that I cited, 849 00:56:05,807 --> 00:56:08,196 by an American sociologist, 850 00:56:08,367 --> 00:56:11,643 who studied the differential use of telephone among men and women. 851 00:56:12,007 --> 00:56:14,123 She shows that it is women 852 00:56:14,287 --> 00:56:17,597 who use the phone a lot more, a lot more than men. 853 00:56:18,247 --> 00:56:20,602 People say women are tattle-tale, They are always on the phone, 854 00:56:20,767 --> 00:56:22,325 always prattling, etc. 855 00:56:22,487 --> 00:56:26,765 In fact, she measured this statistically. 856 00:56:26,927 --> 00:56:31,318 And showed it's only normal because, in the division of domestic labour, 857 00:56:31,487 --> 00:56:34,399 in the family, women have a function, 858 00:56:35,767 --> 00:56:39,316 tacitly acknowledged, which is to maintain relations 859 00:56:40,047 --> 00:56:43,756 - what I call the social capital - with the rest of the family. 860 00:56:43,927 --> 00:56:47,602 They do this with their own family but also with their husband's family. 861 00:56:47,767 --> 00:56:50,201 They make phone calls, buy presents, 862 00:56:50,367 --> 00:56:53,245 organise birthday parties, call people back... 863 00:56:53,407 --> 00:56:56,956 That's an example, just a very small one. 864 00:56:57,127 --> 00:57:00,164 The problem is to gather all these observations, 865 00:57:01,607 --> 00:57:06,283 like that of the behaviour between a woman and her gynecologist... 866 00:57:06,447 --> 00:57:10,759 Some fine work has been done, as often by men as by women, 867 00:57:10,927 --> 00:57:12,201 some very fine work. 868 00:57:13,087 --> 00:57:15,726 I wanted to try and show 869 00:57:15,887 --> 00:57:18,560 that there's a coherence here. 870 00:57:18,967 --> 00:57:22,437 The coherence is that it is a domination of a very special type, 871 00:57:23,207 --> 00:57:26,722 which is not based, whatever may be said, on physical violence. 872 00:57:26,887 --> 00:57:29,481 Of course there are battered women, I know the statistics about it. 873 00:57:29,647 --> 00:57:32,559 It's not based on economic violence only, 874 00:57:32,727 --> 00:57:35,366 on the fact that, because women work less often, 875 00:57:35,527 --> 00:57:38,246 they are less free to leave the home. 876 00:57:38,407 --> 00:57:39,999 It's based on what I call symbolic violence, 877 00:57:40,167 --> 00:57:44,479 this violence which results from the fact 878 00:57:44,687 --> 00:57:48,885 that people have in their minds certain principles of perception, 879 00:57:50,607 --> 00:57:53,121 ways of looking at things, which are the product 880 00:57:53,287 --> 00:57:55,721 of the relationship to domination. 881 00:57:55,887 --> 00:57:59,721 In other words, women participate, as it were, 882 00:57:59,887 --> 00:58:02,196 in their own domination. 883 00:58:02,367 --> 00:58:05,245 This doesn't mean that they're stupid 884 00:58:05,407 --> 00:58:06,806 or that it suffices to... 885 00:58:06,967 --> 00:58:09,083 It means that a gamut of social structures 886 00:58:09,687 --> 00:58:13,316 from childhood, in the family, at school, etc., 887 00:58:13,487 --> 00:58:16,604 lead them to incorporate, to internalise, 888 00:58:17,127 --> 00:58:20,756 the masculine/feminine relationship. 889 00:58:22,287 --> 00:58:25,518 In order to fight this, to subvert it, 890 00:58:25,687 --> 00:58:28,281 you must first take this into account. 891 00:58:28,487 --> 00:58:31,206 Now, this will sound conservative. It's the same as with education, 892 00:58:31,367 --> 00:58:32,880 people will say "Bourdieu is conservative". 893 00:58:33,127 --> 00:58:36,039 "He says that women are dominated, that they contribute to their... 894 00:58:36,207 --> 00:58:38,243 "He's a male chauvinist..." 895 00:58:38,407 --> 00:58:41,285 No. You have to recount that this is the way things are 896 00:58:41,447 --> 00:58:43,244 in order to find ways to... 897 00:58:43,407 --> 00:58:45,716 Where is this domination reproduced? It gets reproduced in the church, 898 00:58:45,887 --> 00:58:49,118 in the state, in the school... 899 00:58:49,287 --> 00:58:51,642 So there are battlefields 900 00:58:52,487 --> 00:58:55,001 and you can set out objectives. 901 00:58:55,367 --> 00:58:58,120 Whereas feminism says the battlefield is in the home: 902 00:58:58,287 --> 00:59:00,721 So you will struggle with your husband, "You wash the dishes!" 903 00:59:00,887 --> 00:59:02,115 Well, okay, that's not bad, 904 00:59:02,287 --> 00:59:05,996 but it's not the only battlefield, 905 00:59:06,167 --> 00:59:08,476 there are other sites for struggles that are much more important. 906 00:59:08,847 --> 00:59:10,758 For example, there are political struggles 907 00:59:11,727 --> 00:59:13,877 for health care, social benefits, etc. 908 00:59:14,047 --> 00:59:17,437 An example I discovered after writing my book... 909 00:59:18,207 --> 00:59:20,641 I always say the state has a right hand and a left hand. 910 00:59:20,807 --> 00:59:25,517 The right hand is finance, the budget... 911 00:59:27,087 --> 00:59:30,716 In short, everything kingly, everything masculine. 912 00:59:31,167 --> 00:59:32,680 And then there is the feminine side. 913 00:59:32,847 --> 00:59:35,884 It's hospitals, nurseries, schools, 914 00:59:36,047 --> 00:59:37,719 social welfare. 915 00:59:37,887 --> 00:59:40,799 Obviously, in the hierarchy of the ministries, 916 00:59:42,847 --> 00:59:45,077 the masculine dominates the feminine, as everywhere. 917 00:59:45,567 --> 00:59:48,445 The Finance Ministry dominates the Ministry of Social Affairs, 918 00:59:50,087 --> 00:59:53,762 the Minister for the Budget dominates everyone. 919 00:59:54,727 --> 00:59:55,842 Having said that 920 00:59:57,727 --> 01:00:01,276 - and I was very pleased when I found this - 921 01:00:01,607 --> 01:00:04,804 when people say that we're destroying the public sector, 922 01:00:04,967 --> 01:00:08,596 it means the domains where women are employed, like hospitals, 923 01:00:08,967 --> 01:00:11,356 and the domains women benefit the most from, 924 01:00:11,527 --> 01:00:15,042 like social services, welfare, nurseries, etc. 925 01:00:15,847 --> 01:00:17,883 So this gives you a political line. 926 01:00:18,047 --> 01:00:20,197 And I guarantee you that a feminist movement, 927 01:00:20,367 --> 01:00:24,042 if they followed this political line instead of engaging in endless talk 928 01:00:24,207 --> 01:00:28,758 "Our interest as women is bound up with the state, 929 01:00:29,487 --> 01:00:32,001 "that is, with the social state, and doubly so, 930 01:00:32,167 --> 01:00:33,725 "insofar as we partake of it, 931 01:00:33,887 --> 01:00:36,037 "We're more likely to be nurses than men 932 01:00:36,207 --> 01:00:37,879 "more likely to be teachers than men..." 933 01:00:38,047 --> 01:00:40,436 Besides today teachers are nearly all women. 934 01:00:40,727 --> 01:00:43,161 "So we must defend the state. 935 01:00:43,847 --> 01:00:46,680 "We're more likely to work for it and to benefit from it, 936 01:00:46,847 --> 01:00:48,599 "because we're the ones who need it..." 937 01:00:48,767 --> 01:00:49,882 That's an example. 938 01:00:51,247 --> 01:00:55,206 But this doesn't fit in at all with commonly accepted ideas, 939 01:00:56,927 --> 01:01:00,397 the usual vision... Well, I'll stop there. 940 01:01:13,647 --> 01:01:15,877 Loic Wacquant is a professor of sociology 941 01:01:16,087 --> 01:01:18,965 at the University of California in Berkeley 942 01:01:19,127 --> 01:01:21,880 He's also a researcher at the Center for European Sociology 943 01:01:22,047 --> 01:01:23,639 of the Collége de France. 944 01:01:24,127 --> 01:01:27,483 His book 'Les Prisons de la Misére' ['Prisons of Poverty'] is just out. 945 01:01:27,727 --> 01:01:31,322 You advocate extending the Guaranteed Minimum Income to prisoners? 946 01:01:31,607 --> 01:01:35,077 Yes, I make a case for extending that program to inmates in France. 947 01:01:35,247 --> 01:01:40,367 They have been systematically excluded from this social program, 948 01:01:40,567 --> 01:01:42,444 when granting them this allowance would reduce 949 01:01:42,607 --> 01:01:44,643 the racketeering in prison. 950 01:01:45,087 --> 01:01:48,796 We know that a large portion of the prison population in France 951 01:01:48,967 --> 01:01:52,198 suffers from such destitution that they have to engage in prostitution 952 01:01:52,367 --> 01:01:56,201 to get enough money to buy soap to wash themselves, 953 01:01:56,367 --> 01:01:59,677 to wash their clothes and their dishes. 954 01:02:00,247 --> 01:02:01,566 The other reason 955 01:02:02,327 --> 01:02:04,636 is that incarceration is very often a heavy financial burden 956 01:02:04,807 --> 01:02:06,126 on the families of inmates, 957 01:02:06,287 --> 01:02:09,120 who generally come from the most deprived strata. 958 01:02:09,287 --> 01:02:12,757 So it would help lift a heavy economic burden 959 01:02:12,927 --> 01:02:15,487 on families which are, as it were, 960 01:02:15,767 --> 01:02:19,396 being penalised, although they have committed no crime. 961 01:02:19,567 --> 01:02:21,842 And the last reason, a symbolic one, 962 01:02:22,007 --> 01:02:24,919 seems to me to suffice in itself. 963 01:02:25,647 --> 01:02:28,798 To grant this benefit to an inmate, who is entitled to it on the outside, 964 01:02:28,967 --> 01:02:32,880 is to express that he continues to be part of the civic community, 965 01:02:33,047 --> 01:02:35,197 that he hasn't been excluded from society. 966 01:02:35,367 --> 01:02:38,120 He had a right to it outside, so why not inside? 967 01:02:38,287 --> 01:02:41,802 It's a way of minimising the separation, 968 01:02:42,727 --> 01:02:44,763 the symbolic branding, the stigma 969 01:02:44,927 --> 01:02:47,760 that all prisoners bear, thus it helps, 970 01:02:48,287 --> 01:02:51,916 or at least it avoids hindering their reintegration. 971 01:02:52,487 --> 01:02:53,602 Okay. 972 01:02:54,327 --> 01:02:57,956 No one cares about the reintegration of anyone in prison. 973 01:02:58,447 --> 01:03:01,883 - There are small organisations... - It was terrific to end on that. 974 01:03:02,047 --> 01:03:03,765 - On the Guaranteed Minimum Income? - Yes. 975 01:03:04,847 --> 01:03:07,600 It was the normative moment in the book. 976 01:03:07,767 --> 01:03:09,803 I had to battle Bourdieu to put it back in. 977 01:03:09,967 --> 01:03:13,437 Because the book was too long. But he agreed. 978 01:03:13,967 --> 01:03:16,720 He'll cut it out at editing. 979 01:03:16,927 --> 01:03:18,565 No, don't do that... 980 01:03:18,727 --> 01:03:21,321 We agreed 981 01:03:22,407 --> 01:03:25,205 that if there's only one good thing to come out of this book, 982 01:03:25,367 --> 01:03:28,404 if it can help to push in that direction, 983 01:03:28,767 --> 01:03:32,555 then it will have been worth it. 984 01:03:35,847 --> 01:03:38,122 You've cost me 5,000 francs! 985 01:03:41,127 --> 01:03:43,721 As soon as I arrive you're getting at me. 986 01:03:43,887 --> 01:03:46,401 Well, I have to. 987 01:03:52,127 --> 01:03:53,162 It's true. 988 01:03:53,927 --> 01:03:56,441 Mrs Christin, so now you're keeping mum? 989 01:03:56,607 --> 01:03:59,167 You get here after the battle, that's all. 990 01:04:04,647 --> 01:04:07,207 You've cut just one sentence, is that all? 991 01:04:08,367 --> 01:04:11,120 Couldn't you make two paragraphs? 992 01:04:11,287 --> 01:04:12,686 No, it's not possible. 993 01:04:12,847 --> 01:04:14,917 It won't fit. 994 01:04:15,287 --> 01:04:18,165 Look, there's just one centimetre. 995 01:04:18,327 --> 01:04:21,000 We've been at it all morning. 996 01:04:22,287 --> 01:04:26,405 The layout editor said, "Let's hope they don't all start doing this." 997 01:04:27,047 --> 01:04:29,242 You're setting a bad example. 998 01:04:29,407 --> 01:04:31,716 Everything you do is a catastrophe. 999 01:04:33,527 --> 01:04:35,006 She won't tell you, 1000 01:04:35,167 --> 01:04:37,806 but the layout editor, a nice fellow, who doesn't know you 1001 01:04:37,967 --> 01:04:41,562 said, "That's as far as we can go, otherwise we'll run into problems." 1002 01:04:41,767 --> 01:04:45,203 No more requests? You let us get on with it now? 1003 01:04:45,687 --> 01:04:47,200 Alright, but I'd like to reread it. 1004 01:04:47,367 --> 01:04:49,562 No, you've handed your manuscript in, 1005 01:04:49,847 --> 01:04:52,122 and Bourdieu is the boss... 1006 01:04:54,527 --> 01:04:57,200 I know. But I'll keep bugging him until... 1007 01:04:57,527 --> 01:05:01,884 It would be silly to leave misspelled names in it. 1008 01:05:02,047 --> 01:05:04,197 We'll do everything we can 1009 01:05:04,367 --> 01:05:06,562 but, really, this is crazy. 1010 01:05:06,727 --> 01:05:07,955 I realize that very well. 1011 01:05:08,167 --> 01:05:12,558 But you're the one who set the deadline last January. 1012 01:05:12,727 --> 01:05:14,479 "By the end of the month!" 1013 01:05:15,007 --> 01:05:19,319 It never looked like I'd be finished by the end of January. 1014 01:05:19,487 --> 01:05:22,206 No, but I was being realistic. 1015 01:05:22,367 --> 01:05:24,517 You made a presentation in my seminar 1016 01:05:24,967 --> 01:05:26,798 which could have been published as is. 1017 01:05:27,007 --> 01:05:30,477 I gave you carte blanche, so I'm not going back on that. 1018 01:05:30,647 --> 01:05:32,922 I think that it's in your interest. 1019 01:05:32,967 --> 01:05:37,006 For a Frenchy, what does it matter once you've understood Murray? 1020 01:05:37,167 --> 01:05:39,283 It's overkill... 1021 01:05:39,527 --> 01:05:42,644 I think that accumulating figures is all very well, 1022 01:05:42,807 --> 01:05:45,367 when you're on something that seems improbable, 1023 01:05:46,567 --> 01:05:50,355 you can be accused of exaggerating, of being anti-American... 1024 01:05:50,727 --> 01:05:55,323 But when it's to demonstrate that this Murray guy is a fascist 1025 01:05:56,327 --> 01:05:59,125 who crossed the Atlantic to... okay, we get it! 1026 01:05:59,287 --> 01:06:01,278 So adding one more quote... 1027 01:06:01,447 --> 01:06:04,405 I see what you mean, the insert on Murray going to England, 1028 01:06:04,567 --> 01:06:06,956 where they welcome him like royalty. 1029 01:06:07,127 --> 01:06:09,561 At the same time it's good, it's revealing and... 1030 01:06:11,487 --> 01:06:13,443 Really, trust me. 1031 01:06:13,687 --> 01:06:16,201 I didn't do the edits casually, I did them seriously. 1032 01:06:16,367 --> 01:06:19,120 - I wouldn't trust anyone else. - I did them seriously. 1033 01:06:19,767 --> 01:06:22,884 I think that this effect of... 1034 01:06:23,047 --> 01:06:26,278 it's flabbergasting and you think, "It's not possible!" 1035 01:06:28,167 --> 01:06:31,159 Or, "reality overtakes fiction." 1036 01:06:31,327 --> 01:06:32,806 So if you're piling it on, 1037 01:06:32,967 --> 01:06:36,084 from the reader's standpoint you reach the saturation point. 1038 01:06:36,567 --> 01:06:38,922 You think "But we get it, 1039 01:06:39,367 --> 01:06:41,756 "these people are monsters. They'll say anything". 1040 01:06:41,927 --> 01:06:44,441 "Why does he keep harping on it? 1041 01:06:44,887 --> 01:06:46,718 "Okay, we're convinced." 1042 01:07:13,727 --> 01:07:16,036 Some say that an engaged intellectual 1043 01:07:16,207 --> 01:07:18,198 is an intellectual involved in politics. That's not true. 1044 01:07:18,407 --> 01:07:20,477 An engaged intellectual 1045 01:07:20,647 --> 01:07:24,083 is an intellectual who intervenes in the public sphere, 1046 01:07:24,247 --> 01:07:27,319 which may be the political sphere, but without abandoning 1047 01:07:27,487 --> 01:07:29,398 - otherwise he's a clown - 1048 01:07:29,567 --> 01:07:31,125 the ordinary demands 1049 01:07:31,287 --> 01:07:34,199 of his ordinary activity as a researcher. 1050 01:07:34,927 --> 01:07:38,602 If getting involved in politics means you start spouting nonsense, 1051 01:07:39,247 --> 01:07:41,681 then you stop being an intellectual. I'll stop here. 1052 01:07:43,327 --> 01:07:45,318 Who wants to speak? 1053 01:07:47,647 --> 01:07:50,605 This needs rethinking. Because last century, 1054 01:07:50,767 --> 01:07:53,645 capitalism was a matter of people 1055 01:07:54,047 --> 01:07:57,119 who owned companies and were active within them. 1056 01:07:57,287 --> 01:08:01,758 Today it's a matter of managers trained in universities, 1057 01:08:01,927 --> 01:08:06,364 who are responsible for nothing because they have short-term goals, 1058 01:08:06,527 --> 01:08:08,404 and then someone else takes over. 1059 01:08:09,287 --> 01:08:12,279 We need to know that the shit we find ourselves in 1060 01:08:12,647 --> 01:08:16,879 was thought out, conceived in the universities. 1061 01:08:17,487 --> 01:08:20,923 It is the same professors, or the same professorial body, 1062 01:08:21,087 --> 01:08:25,046 who participate in creating both sides. Thank you. 1063 01:08:25,247 --> 01:08:29,684 That kind of generalisation is intolerable to a sociologist. 1064 01:08:29,847 --> 01:08:31,917 You can't say "Universities", as a whole. 1065 01:08:32,087 --> 01:08:36,399 It's like a 68-meter tortoise, it doesn't exist. 1066 01:08:36,567 --> 01:08:38,797 Which universities do you mean? Is it business schools, 1067 01:08:38,967 --> 01:08:41,800 American business schools? Is it the MIT? 1068 01:08:41,967 --> 01:08:43,161 You have to enter into the detail of things. 1069 01:08:43,327 --> 01:08:47,115 Frédéric Lebaron, with us here, has done work on this. 1070 01:08:47,287 --> 01:08:48,720 You can read it soon. 1071 01:08:48,887 --> 01:08:52,402 He's just analysed the winners of the Nobel Prize for Economics. 1072 01:08:52,567 --> 01:08:54,398 That's the new kind of political struggle. 1073 01:08:54,567 --> 01:08:58,196 He uses very sophisticated statistical techniques to analyse 1074 01:08:59,047 --> 01:09:01,197 in detail the space of producers of this economic discourse 1075 01:09:01,367 --> 01:09:05,724 in the name of which we are told that we need labour flexibility, etc. 1076 01:09:06,127 --> 01:09:08,197 By means of a refined analysis, 1077 01:09:08,367 --> 01:09:10,756 he shows the structure of this space. 1078 01:09:10,927 --> 01:09:12,918 Old-style political critique, 1079 01:09:13,087 --> 01:09:16,238 despite some useful stuff from Marx, 1080 01:09:16,407 --> 01:09:20,958 misses its target entirely. 1081 01:09:21,327 --> 01:09:25,002 What we need to fight this is micro-surgery. 1082 01:09:25,647 --> 01:09:27,638 Which forbids saying things such as you've just said. 1083 01:09:27,807 --> 01:09:29,923 It's not universities in general, professors in general. 1084 01:09:30,087 --> 01:09:32,601 You have right-wing and left-wing professors, different disciplines... 1085 01:09:32,767 --> 01:09:35,486 And it shouldn't be possible anymore - and this isn't censorship - 1086 01:09:35,647 --> 01:09:38,684 to talk like that, or someone should answer, 1087 01:09:38,847 --> 01:09:42,999 "Sir, I agree to some extent, just a bit, but... not entirely." 1088 01:09:56,487 --> 01:09:58,318 Yes, that's right. 1089 01:09:59,047 --> 01:10:02,596 But perhaps if we both go over it we'll get it done. 1090 01:10:03,807 --> 01:10:05,525 You don't have a copy with you at home? 1091 01:10:07,247 --> 01:10:09,158 Take a look. 1092 01:10:11,007 --> 01:10:13,316 Yes, I'm off now. 1093 01:10:17,847 --> 01:10:19,519 What did I want to say? 1094 01:10:19,687 --> 01:10:23,077 Oh, yes, the other thing is, since I have you on the line, 1095 01:10:23,247 --> 01:10:26,762 the interview you did with the headhunter 1096 01:10:27,967 --> 01:10:31,243 from the Seuil publishing house... You've lost it, have you? 1097 01:10:32,327 --> 01:10:36,240 It would be useful for the book, wouldn't it? 1098 01:10:38,087 --> 01:10:39,600 Okay, okay. And... 1099 01:10:40,007 --> 01:10:44,000 when you rummage through your papers, if you come across the interviews 1100 01:10:44,167 --> 01:10:46,840 with the women from the women's magazines... 1101 01:10:47,007 --> 01:10:49,646 We could use them one day. That's all. 1102 01:11:06,807 --> 01:11:08,798 I'm almost done. 1103 01:11:11,767 --> 01:11:15,521 You're calling for an economy... 1104 01:11:15,887 --> 01:11:17,479 - Of 'Gluck'. - Of happiness. 1105 01:11:17,727 --> 01:11:19,240 Yes, of happiness. 1106 01:11:19,407 --> 01:11:21,875 A new economy of happiness. 1107 01:11:22,647 --> 01:11:24,956 It's an idea that is both... 1108 01:11:25,967 --> 01:11:29,403 Today it might seem a bit original and even utopian, 1109 01:11:29,727 --> 01:11:32,366 whereas it's really quite banal. All it means 1110 01:11:32,727 --> 01:11:36,436 is that the economy as it now is, 1111 01:11:36,607 --> 01:11:39,121 according to the dominant definition, 1112 01:11:40,567 --> 01:11:43,320 takes into account costs and profits, etc. 1113 01:11:43,487 --> 01:11:46,399 But it erases social costs and social profits, 1114 01:11:46,567 --> 01:11:51,038 everything that's not quantifiable, everything that's not calculable, 1115 01:11:51,487 --> 01:11:57,722 everything that can't be anticipated by computation, etc. 1116 01:11:58,847 --> 01:12:02,237 As a result, we severely underestimate costs 1117 01:12:06,007 --> 01:12:12,276 and we overestimate the cost-profit ratio. 1118 01:12:13,567 --> 01:12:15,239 For example, 1119 01:12:15,407 --> 01:12:19,036 if we really took into account 1120 01:12:20,007 --> 01:12:23,044 - this is just an example - 1121 01:12:24,847 --> 01:12:26,758 the cost of urban violence... 1122 01:12:27,887 --> 01:12:32,244 When European governments or other governments 1123 01:12:32,407 --> 01:12:35,399 ask sociologists to study violence 1124 01:12:35,807 --> 01:12:40,483 in schools, in the banlieues, there's always money for this. 1125 01:12:40,647 --> 01:12:45,482 What do they want? Recipes to make violence go away. 1126 01:12:45,927 --> 01:12:50,000 Do we need more policemen, more social workers, more teachers? 1127 01:12:50,567 --> 01:12:54,321 Does school play a role in the violence? 1128 01:12:54,567 --> 01:12:56,717 But beware, how do we protect the schools? 1129 01:12:56,887 --> 01:12:58,684 Those are the questions that are raised. 1130 01:12:58,847 --> 01:13:02,556 In fact, they systematically exclude the question 1131 01:13:03,527 --> 01:13:07,884 of whether the causes of violence do not reside outside that universe, 1132 01:13:08,487 --> 01:13:11,047 in things that are totally obvious, such as the unemployment rate, 1133 01:13:11,207 --> 01:13:16,076 job insecurity, temporal insecurity, 1134 01:13:16,247 --> 01:13:19,956 the fact that the future is uncertain, 1135 01:13:20,127 --> 01:13:22,277 elimination from school, 1136 01:13:22,447 --> 01:13:25,837 the fact that some children, because of their background, 1137 01:13:26,007 --> 01:13:29,283 both social and ethnic, the two being often linked, 1138 01:13:29,807 --> 01:13:32,560 are fated to be eliminated by the school system. 1139 01:13:36,007 --> 01:13:39,204 The causes of violence reside in the whole structure. 1140 01:13:40,087 --> 01:13:43,841 What is not perceived is that savings made on one side... 1141 01:13:44,167 --> 01:13:46,476 as when they say, "Let's cut costs, 1142 01:13:46,647 --> 01:13:48,842 "let's downsize, 1143 01:13:50,047 --> 01:13:53,835 "let's layoff 2,000 people to cut production costs 1144 01:13:54,327 --> 01:13:57,717 "and be competitive on the world market..." 1145 01:13:57,887 --> 01:14:01,084 The savings made on one end are paid for at the other end. 1146 01:14:01,247 --> 01:14:05,081 The 2,000 people who are dismissed, especially if they're young, 1147 01:14:05,487 --> 01:14:09,526 will take tranquillisers, become alcoholics, 1148 01:14:10,887 --> 01:14:14,641 take drugs, become dealers and then killers, 1149 01:14:14,807 --> 01:14:18,436 and keep the police hard at work. 1150 01:14:18,887 --> 01:14:21,560 If we balance the social costs induced by 1151 01:14:22,687 --> 01:14:26,965 a purely economic approach to cost-saving, 1152 01:14:27,327 --> 01:14:29,841 it's easy to see what bad economics this is. 1153 01:14:30,007 --> 01:14:32,646 That's all. What we have is very bad economics, 1154 01:14:32,807 --> 01:14:36,595 based on the dissociation of the economic and the social. 1155 01:14:37,047 --> 01:14:39,436 But what's social is economic. 1156 01:14:44,007 --> 01:14:48,717 There's nothing which lies outside of this enlarged economy: 1157 01:14:49,487 --> 01:14:51,079 Sadness, 1158 01:14:52,447 --> 01:14:54,836 joy, happiness, 1159 01:14:55,007 --> 01:14:57,282 taking pleasure in life, 1160 01:14:57,727 --> 01:15:00,446 the pleasure of walking the streets without being attacked, 1161 01:15:01,327 --> 01:15:03,557 the quality of the air we breathe... 1162 01:15:03,727 --> 01:15:05,479 All of that pertains to economics. 1163 01:15:05,687 --> 01:15:07,996 Now with ecology, they're starting to say... 1164 01:15:08,167 --> 01:15:12,319 But with what difficulties! It's a law, another social law: 1165 01:15:12,647 --> 01:15:15,844 There are social costs which affect everyone. 1166 01:15:16,007 --> 01:15:18,965 This is based on research done by a Dutch sociologist. 1167 01:15:19,127 --> 01:15:22,642 He showed that in the 18th and 19th centuries, 1168 01:15:22,967 --> 01:15:28,246 advances in the standards of hygiene were fostered 1169 01:15:29,687 --> 01:15:32,406 by the fact that the great epidemics 1170 01:15:33,207 --> 01:15:36,836 such as the plague, crossed class barriers. 1171 01:15:37,007 --> 01:15:40,841 An epidemic of the plague didn't stay in the lower-class districts. 1172 01:15:41,007 --> 01:15:43,157 It killed everyone, including the bourgeois. 1173 01:15:43,367 --> 01:15:45,722 So they built sewers, 1174 01:15:48,487 --> 01:15:51,604 they implemented all kinds of measures of hygiene 1175 01:15:51,767 --> 01:15:53,166 in the public interest, 1176 01:15:53,327 --> 01:15:57,764 but only because these were also in the interest of the dominant. 1177 01:15:57,927 --> 01:16:00,395 Today, for example, with Chernobyl, 1178 01:16:00,767 --> 01:16:04,237 the radioactive cloud isn't going to stop at the Oder-Neisse border, 1179 01:16:04,407 --> 01:16:05,999 nor at the Rhine, 1180 01:16:06,167 --> 01:16:08,840 nor at the border of the upper-class districts of Paris. 1181 01:16:11,807 --> 01:16:15,720 That's when we practise ecology "in the public interest". 1182 01:16:17,967 --> 01:16:21,676 Medical doctors, who are not a progressive element in any country, 1183 01:16:22,527 --> 01:16:25,837 are beginning to say, "Oh, pollution levels are very bad 1184 01:16:26,487 --> 01:16:28,762 "for people with a heart condition. 1185 01:16:28,927 --> 01:16:30,121 "Who suffer from asthma, too." 1186 01:16:30,287 --> 01:16:33,677 But nobody knows what the consequences will be in 20 years. 1187 01:16:33,847 --> 01:16:37,203 In 20 years, we'll be saying, "There's a correlation between cancer rates 1188 01:16:40,007 --> 01:16:43,602 and urban life." But it will be too late. 1189 01:16:43,767 --> 01:16:45,598 What I say all the time 1190 01:16:45,767 --> 01:16:48,520 is that social science is telling us now 1191 01:16:48,687 --> 01:16:52,396 that measures which seem very rational "economically" today... 1192 01:16:52,567 --> 01:16:56,640 "We're going to produce more Toyotas with less steel!" 1193 01:16:58,047 --> 01:17:01,357 As Leibniz used to say, "We'll tie up more dogs with fewer sausages". 1194 01:17:03,567 --> 01:17:08,561 This way of running the economy has terrible effects 1195 01:17:10,087 --> 01:17:12,647 which are said to be "secondary", but in fact are primary 1196 01:17:12,807 --> 01:17:16,880 when they concern public health, physical and mental health... 1197 01:17:18,727 --> 01:17:20,558 personal sanity, for example alcoholism, 1198 01:17:20,727 --> 01:17:25,517 which is a social phenomenon. 1199 01:17:26,487 --> 01:17:31,117 I think that all these measures which make the stock market soar 1200 01:17:31,287 --> 01:17:34,518 - it zooms up each time a measure like that is taken - 1201 01:17:37,447 --> 01:17:39,881 will be paid for by certain people 1202 01:17:40,047 --> 01:17:41,844 and eventually by the collectivity. 1203 01:17:42,007 --> 01:17:44,680 It's a bit like the sewers in the 18th century, 1204 01:17:44,847 --> 01:17:46,326 paid for by the collectivity. 1205 01:17:46,487 --> 01:17:48,921 What I'm preaching is enlightened interest. 1206 01:17:49,087 --> 01:17:51,840 I say to the dominant, 1207 01:17:52,447 --> 01:17:54,677 "You can be cynical, 1208 01:17:57,167 --> 01:17:59,806 "you may not care what happens to the people, 1209 01:17:59,967 --> 01:18:02,879 "but it's stupid, not just mean." 1210 01:18:03,287 --> 01:18:04,640 After all, I'm no moralist. 1211 01:18:04,807 --> 01:18:07,719 "If it pleases you to be like that... But it's stupid! 1212 01:18:07,887 --> 01:18:11,516 "Because you'll end up, like in California, 1213 01:18:11,687 --> 01:18:14,997 "in your gilded ghettos with armed guards. 1214 01:18:15,167 --> 01:18:17,601 "You won't be able to go out without watchdogs, 1215 01:18:18,167 --> 01:18:20,727 "you'll need security systems everywhere, 1216 01:18:20,887 --> 01:18:23,959 "you'll be as if besieged in your fortress, 1217 01:18:24,127 --> 01:18:27,085 "surrounded by a violence you will have created yourself." 1218 01:18:27,247 --> 01:18:30,398 Of course, the system is very powerful 1219 01:18:30,567 --> 01:18:33,001 and so far it's "under control"... 1220 01:18:33,407 --> 01:18:37,161 I don't know how many millions of Blacks they have in prison... 1221 01:18:37,727 --> 01:18:39,046 There you go! 1222 01:18:52,127 --> 01:18:54,516 This is the report. 1223 01:18:54,727 --> 01:18:56,319 There are lots of photocopies. 1224 01:18:56,487 --> 01:18:59,285 She normally sends it by e-mail to everyone. 1225 01:19:00,607 --> 01:19:02,882 Anyway, here is a copy. 1226 01:19:03,167 --> 01:19:05,078 - Is this everything? - Yes it's all there. 1227 01:19:06,847 --> 01:19:10,920 This is what the newspapers call a penetration indicator. 1228 01:19:11,887 --> 01:19:15,357 It would be a sort of indicator of the penetration of neo-liberalism. 1229 01:19:16,727 --> 01:19:20,083 Okay so we have "suicide", all right. Then we have "drugs", 1230 01:19:21,047 --> 01:19:22,480 "death caused by drugs", 1231 01:19:22,967 --> 01:19:25,162 then we have "antidepressants"... 1232 01:19:26,327 --> 01:19:27,919 What else do we have? 1233 01:19:30,287 --> 01:19:32,801 The number of murders, but? 1234 01:19:34,127 --> 01:19:38,086 Here too it's very multi-causal, though. For instance, in Ireland 1235 01:19:38,247 --> 01:19:40,886 or in Spain, 1236 01:19:41,047 --> 01:19:42,878 there are more murders than in other countries 1237 01:19:43,047 --> 01:19:45,117 because of the political circumstances. 1238 01:19:45,847 --> 01:19:47,803 Yes but we can correct that, 1239 01:19:47,967 --> 01:19:50,322 we can see that on the table, Spain and Ireland are higher... 1240 01:19:50,487 --> 01:19:54,116 In my view, delinquency linked to neo-liberalism 1241 01:19:54,287 --> 01:19:56,084 isn't primarily murders. - Agreed, agreed. 1242 01:19:56,887 --> 01:19:59,685 On the other hand, the evolution of incarceration by sex and age, 1243 01:19:59,847 --> 01:20:03,317 if there is a table for that, here we have a question mark, 1244 01:20:03,567 --> 01:20:06,445 if the data exist, that would be much more relevant. 1245 01:20:06,607 --> 01:20:07,676 I agree. 1246 01:20:08,927 --> 01:20:11,282 Couldn't we use "unemployment", 1247 01:20:11,447 --> 01:20:14,678 "part-time work", something like that? 1248 01:20:15,007 --> 01:20:18,283 Indicators of casualization. 1249 01:20:19,647 --> 01:20:21,877 We should have one. 1250 01:20:23,127 --> 01:20:26,437 We had "imposed part-time work". 1251 01:20:27,327 --> 01:20:31,286 That's under labour market: 1252 01:20:32,487 --> 01:20:36,321 Share of imposed part-time work... Same, we have the figures for 1996. 1253 01:20:36,487 --> 01:20:38,364 Isn't it true that 1254 01:20:39,327 --> 01:20:43,718 if we don't disaggregate indicators by occupational category, 1255 01:20:43,887 --> 01:20:47,277 we are erasing one of the main properties of neo-liberal policies: 1256 01:20:47,447 --> 01:20:48,800 That they are class policies? 1257 01:20:48,967 --> 01:20:51,242 Take, for example, 1258 01:20:52,567 --> 01:20:54,319 What Duisenberg said recently, 1259 01:20:54,487 --> 01:20:58,844 "If wages were raised, interest rates would rise immediately." 1260 01:20:59,047 --> 01:21:01,436 Do we have statistics on that? 1261 01:21:01,607 --> 01:21:03,757 We can produce them. For life expectancy at birth, 1262 01:21:03,927 --> 01:21:08,682 the evolution of the difference in life expectancy by occupational category, 1263 01:21:08,847 --> 01:21:11,566 between workers and the professions, 1264 01:21:11,727 --> 01:21:15,515 that's an indicator which is pertinent in the long-term. 1265 01:21:15,687 --> 01:21:18,884 That's a problem, I know a bit about this. 1266 01:21:19,047 --> 01:21:21,481 The problem is that the difference tends to decrease. 1267 01:21:21,647 --> 01:21:24,366 I don't want to always say 1268 01:21:24,527 --> 01:21:26,404 that the indicators we use 1269 01:21:26,567 --> 01:21:29,479 go against our thesis, but it's well-established 1270 01:21:29,647 --> 01:21:33,083 that the health system is more efficient nowadays 1271 01:21:33,247 --> 01:21:34,646 than it used to be. 1272 01:21:34,807 --> 01:21:35,876 Over the long run. 1273 01:21:36,047 --> 01:21:39,403 So we risk attributing to the effects of neo-liberalism 1274 01:21:39,567 --> 01:21:43,321 what are simply the consequences of a health policy which... 1275 01:21:44,727 --> 01:21:47,195 In education, the effects are visible 20 years later. 1276 01:21:47,407 --> 01:21:51,241 The effects are delayed. I'm always saying this. 1277 01:21:51,407 --> 01:21:55,844 One strength of neo-liberal policy is, first, its secrecy 1278 01:21:56,007 --> 01:21:59,716 and its effects become apparent only over the very long term. 1279 01:22:02,127 --> 01:22:05,517 By the time people have discovered what the policy is, 1280 01:22:05,687 --> 01:22:08,918 people are way behind, with regards to the WTO, etc. 1281 01:22:09,087 --> 01:22:12,841 And to discover the effects of this policy, it's even later. 1282 01:22:13,487 --> 01:22:16,160 It's true that perhaps our approach here is naive. 1283 01:22:19,087 --> 01:22:22,124 We can get round that by saying 1284 01:22:22,687 --> 01:22:25,326 that there are different temporalities, 1285 01:22:26,847 --> 01:22:30,078 and elaborate the explanation you just gave. 1286 01:22:30,247 --> 01:22:32,761 It'd be silly to say... 1287 01:22:32,927 --> 01:22:34,406 - We surrender? - Yes. 1288 01:22:36,367 --> 01:22:40,042 The long term/short term thing makes your head spin. 1289 01:22:40,207 --> 01:22:43,005 It seems to me we could almost find 1290 01:22:43,167 --> 01:22:45,965 a parallel with what Keynes said about the economy. 1291 01:22:46,207 --> 01:22:49,882 He said, "Of course the cycles balance out." 1292 01:22:50,047 --> 01:22:52,322 And, "In the long term we'll all be dead." 1293 01:22:52,487 --> 01:22:55,047 But we still have to manage the period when we're alive. 1294 01:22:55,207 --> 01:22:57,562 We could always say, in a sociological approach, 1295 01:22:57,727 --> 01:22:59,922 "In the long term we'll all have adapted." 1296 01:23:00,967 --> 01:23:04,437 But there's still the short term, and that's the crux of the matter: 1297 01:23:05,607 --> 01:23:09,316 The degree to which there's a mismatch 1298 01:23:09,767 --> 01:23:12,645 because of the disparity between economic structures 1299 01:23:13,247 --> 01:23:15,602 - with their own logic - 1300 01:23:15,767 --> 01:23:20,318 and social logics, which don't have the same temporality. 1301 01:23:21,447 --> 01:23:23,802 That's what is at issue here. 1302 01:23:23,967 --> 01:23:29,883 Now in 100 years everyone will be neo-liberal or whatever. 1303 01:23:30,047 --> 01:23:32,356 But, for now, not everyone is, 1304 01:23:32,527 --> 01:23:35,246 and that creates extremely violent situations. 1305 01:23:36,247 --> 01:23:39,080 I missed the beginning, I'm afraid. 1306 01:23:39,807 --> 01:23:42,082 But, regarding short term/Iong term, 1307 01:23:42,247 --> 01:23:46,001 wouldn't the last ten years be the right time span for us? 1308 01:23:47,207 --> 01:23:49,926 Implicitly, the problem we are raising 1309 01:23:50,087 --> 01:23:51,964 - the relationship between neo-liberalism and anomie - 1310 01:23:52,127 --> 01:23:57,042 is this: Since the 1980s a new policy has emerged. 1311 01:23:57,207 --> 01:24:01,917 Are we able to see its effects in the indicators? 1312 01:24:02,127 --> 01:24:05,039 That's basically what we were doing, but not explicitly. 1313 01:24:05,647 --> 01:24:10,516 Rémi, in fact, was the one who kept bringing up the long term, 1314 01:24:11,447 --> 01:24:14,120 and made us aware of that. 1315 01:24:16,407 --> 01:24:22,039 So, having said that, what do we do now? 1316 01:24:26,407 --> 01:24:29,683 Maybe it'll work out well after all, 1317 01:24:29,847 --> 01:24:32,680 but my spirits have just taken an uppercut. 1318 01:24:36,847 --> 01:24:38,485 Mine, too. But anyway... 1319 01:24:38,647 --> 01:24:41,844 But at the same time, it makes things even more interesting, 1320 01:24:42,327 --> 01:24:43,885 on an intellectual level. 1321 01:24:44,247 --> 01:24:47,876 Yes, because we've eliminated all the objections. 1322 01:24:48,527 --> 01:24:50,677 Champagne said, we can say that of all the indicators. 1323 01:24:50,847 --> 01:24:55,159 If everyone of us puts his critical machine to work 1324 01:24:55,327 --> 01:24:57,921 based on his competencies, on each of the indicators, 1325 01:24:58,087 --> 01:24:59,281 we'll grind out the whole bit to a pulp. 1326 01:24:59,447 --> 01:25:01,836 You attack demography... 1327 01:25:02,487 --> 01:25:03,840 No, I mean it! 1328 01:25:04,007 --> 01:25:05,884 As for me, I'll tackle education. 1329 01:25:06,767 --> 01:25:08,325 Champagne will tackle alcoholism. 1330 01:25:12,447 --> 01:25:14,517 True, he's messed up alcoholism. 1331 01:25:14,687 --> 01:25:17,599 I'll have to tell Franz, that's a good one. 1332 01:25:17,847 --> 01:25:22,557 He said that alcoholism is a factor favourable to neo-liberalism 1333 01:25:22,727 --> 01:25:24,399 because it's diminishing. 1334 01:25:25,167 --> 01:25:29,160 It's also a good indicator for work integration. 1335 01:25:35,567 --> 01:25:38,400 In any case, it's not a very clear indicator. 1336 01:25:39,247 --> 01:25:43,126 No, but the increased consumption of Coca-Cola is a good indicator 1337 01:25:43,447 --> 01:25:46,086 of the advance of neo-liberalism. 1338 01:25:50,087 --> 01:25:52,726 Or the increase in the number of obese children. 1339 01:25:52,887 --> 01:25:56,562 Or McDonald's outlets, for example. 1340 01:25:59,487 --> 01:26:03,366 We take the Mickey Mouse index and the McDonald's index... 1341 01:26:03,967 --> 01:26:07,039 We could do a cartoon with them! 1342 01:26:09,247 --> 01:26:12,637 We'd call it the Mickey index, rather than the Nikkei index... 1343 01:26:16,847 --> 01:26:18,963 What time is it? What time is our appointment? 1344 01:26:19,127 --> 01:26:20,924 At the restaurant? 1345 01:26:21,087 --> 01:26:22,759 At the Collége? 1346 01:26:22,927 --> 01:26:25,680 Well, we'd better be going, then. 1347 01:26:28,527 --> 01:26:30,165 I'll try to give you 1348 01:26:32,287 --> 01:26:35,802 a snapshot of the analysis presented in detail in this book. 1349 01:26:35,967 --> 01:26:38,117 I'll avoid giving you too much statistical data 1350 01:26:38,327 --> 01:26:42,764 because I think Serge has used up our entire quota for this evening. 1351 01:26:44,767 --> 01:26:47,042 For this I'll start from an article 1352 01:26:47,247 --> 01:26:50,876 entitled "Insecurity: The lessons of the New York model" 1353 01:26:51,527 --> 01:26:56,237 written by the great criminologist, Philippe Douste-Blazy, 1354 01:26:59,407 --> 01:27:01,318 house representative and mayor of Lourdes, 1355 01:27:02,527 --> 01:27:05,439 president of the UDF caucus in Parliament, 1356 01:27:06,007 --> 01:27:07,281 who tells us... 1357 01:27:07,447 --> 01:27:10,325 with the help of very nice photos. 1358 01:27:10,487 --> 01:27:12,796 We have a photo of Mr. Douste-Blazy looking very earnest as he talks 1359 01:27:12,967 --> 01:27:14,525 with a New York policeman. 1360 01:27:14,687 --> 01:27:16,484 Then we see him in the street 1361 01:27:17,207 --> 01:27:19,482 - I wish I could show you this - we see him in the street 1362 01:27:19,647 --> 01:27:22,719 with some kids playing ball and laughing. 1363 01:27:22,887 --> 01:27:24,878 He's in the background, 1364 01:27:25,047 --> 01:27:29,006 with police officers and a social worker in a track-suit. 1365 01:27:29,167 --> 01:27:33,240 He is wearing a lovely tie, looking at the kids. 1366 01:27:34,847 --> 01:27:36,041 And then he tells us: 1367 01:27:36,207 --> 01:27:39,279 "The safety of persons and property is a topic that politicians 1368 01:27:39,447 --> 01:27:41,358 often hesitate to tackle." 1369 01:27:41,567 --> 01:27:44,001 That's rather flabbergasting 1370 01:27:44,167 --> 01:27:47,045 since the newspapers and TV are full of it, 1371 01:27:47,207 --> 01:27:49,516 but we'll let that pass. 1372 01:27:50,047 --> 01:27:52,003 "It's not surprising, then 1373 01:27:52,167 --> 01:27:55,125 "that insecurity is continually increasing in France. 1374 01:27:55,287 --> 01:27:59,041 "Recent figures are an indictment of the present government..." 1375 01:27:59,607 --> 01:28:04,727 Now pay close attention to the structure of the sentence: 1376 01:28:05,407 --> 01:28:09,195 "Since politics is the opposite of resignation, 1377 01:28:10,527 --> 01:28:13,360 "I decided to go to New York this summer..." 1378 01:28:19,407 --> 01:28:21,796 That's wonderful! 1379 01:28:25,007 --> 01:28:27,680 "I decided to go to New York this summer 1380 01:28:27,847 --> 01:28:31,726 "in order to study the methods of what is recognised worldwide 1381 01:28:31,887 --> 01:28:34,640 "as an exemplary success in crime fighting." 1382 01:28:34,807 --> 01:28:39,119 Here we have a perfect example of the new law-and-order ideology, 1383 01:28:39,287 --> 01:28:43,838 this new neo-liberal "common sense" about punishment 1384 01:28:44,007 --> 01:28:45,360 that comes to us from the United States, 1385 01:28:45,527 --> 01:28:48,758 which was elaborated by a group of think tanks 1386 01:28:48,927 --> 01:28:51,043 based on the East Coast of the United States 1387 01:28:51,207 --> 01:28:54,040 as part of their war against the welfare state. 1388 01:28:54,447 --> 01:28:59,043 First, at the end of the 1970s and beginning of the 1980s, 1389 01:28:59,207 --> 01:29:02,040 they advocated the dismantling of welfare policy. 1390 01:29:02,207 --> 01:29:06,041 They were successful since in 1996 a Democratic president 1391 01:29:06,207 --> 01:29:08,198 abolished the right to welfare support in the United States 1392 01:29:08,367 --> 01:29:11,882 and replaced it with a programme of enforced wage work for recipients. 1393 01:29:12,047 --> 01:29:15,119 This is the transition from "welfare" to "workfare": 1394 01:29:15,287 --> 01:29:18,643 Compulsory work under conditions that are exempted from labour laws 1395 01:29:18,807 --> 01:29:21,685 and escape the usual wage standards. 1396 01:29:21,967 --> 01:29:24,879 And then, after having argued for "small government" 1397 01:29:25,047 --> 01:29:27,720 in social and economic matters, 1398 01:29:27,887 --> 01:29:30,355 these same policy institutes and the same parties who back them, 1399 01:29:30,527 --> 01:29:32,961 the same countries and the same professors 1400 01:29:33,127 --> 01:29:35,482 who broadcast this ideology, 1401 01:29:35,647 --> 01:29:37,842 will argue, with a lag of about ten years, 1402 01:29:38,007 --> 01:29:39,963 for "big government", for more state intervention 1403 01:29:40,127 --> 01:29:42,277 in policing and penal matters. 1404 01:29:42,447 --> 01:29:44,722 What I'm going to try to show you 1405 01:29:44,887 --> 01:29:46,605 is that there is no contradiction 1406 01:29:46,767 --> 01:29:49,645 in asking for less state here and more state there. 1407 01:29:49,807 --> 01:29:51,365 There is a coherence. This is a shift from 1408 01:29:51,527 --> 01:29:55,566 the social welfare treatment of inequalities 1409 01:29:55,967 --> 01:29:58,322 and the insecurity that inequalities generate, 1410 01:29:58,487 --> 01:30:00,921 toward a police and penal treatment. 1411 01:30:01,087 --> 01:30:03,681 Roughly put, the regulation of the casualized fractions 1412 01:30:03,887 --> 01:30:05,479 of the working class passes from 1413 01:30:05,647 --> 01:30:07,717 the left hand of the state - to borrow Pierre Bourdieu's 1414 01:30:07,887 --> 01:30:10,276 terminology in 'La Misére du Monde' - ['The Weight of the World'] 1415 01:30:10,447 --> 01:30:12,915 From the left hand of the state, which assists and educates, 1416 01:30:13,087 --> 01:30:16,397 the hand that provides housing, education and medical care, 1417 01:30:16,567 --> 01:30:19,400 to the right hand of the state, the hand that punishes, 1418 01:30:19,687 --> 01:30:23,236 the policeman, the judge, the prison guard... 1419 01:30:24,607 --> 01:30:26,802 The actualization of the neo-liberal utopia 1420 01:30:26,967 --> 01:30:30,277 does not mean "small government", the withering away of the state. 1421 01:30:30,447 --> 01:30:33,120 It means less state on the social and economic front, 1422 01:30:33,287 --> 01:30:37,519 it is a "laissez-faire" policy in matters of work, 1423 01:30:37,687 --> 01:30:39,564 in the regulation of the labour market, 1424 01:30:39,727 --> 01:30:41,285 when it comes to the mobility of capital. 1425 01:30:41,447 --> 01:30:43,756 But, at the same time, it means "big government" 1426 01:30:43,927 --> 01:30:45,838 an intrusive and paternalist state, 1427 01:30:46,007 --> 01:30:49,886 which results in the reduction or even the destruction of liberties 1428 01:30:50,047 --> 01:30:53,676 especially for those condemned to precarious wage work. 1429 01:30:53,847 --> 01:30:59,558 The real stake of the load of baloney that we hear about violence today, 1430 01:30:59,727 --> 01:31:01,160 is not crime and delinquency. 1431 01:31:01,367 --> 01:31:04,962 The real stake of this new discourse about crime and insecurity 1432 01:31:05,127 --> 01:31:08,005 is to legitimize the shift from the social welfare management 1433 01:31:08,167 --> 01:31:10,806 to the penal management of poverty. 1434 01:31:10,967 --> 01:31:13,720 The purpose of this penal management of poverty 1435 01:31:13,887 --> 01:31:16,924 is to normalize and impose casualized wage labour. 1436 01:31:17,087 --> 01:31:19,317 Just like in the 19th century, 1437 01:31:19,487 --> 01:31:21,603 it took a cultural and institutional revolution 1438 01:31:21,767 --> 01:31:23,439 - social work, for example - 1439 01:31:23,607 --> 01:31:25,438 to impose wage work, 1440 01:31:25,607 --> 01:31:29,077 today it takes a mental, cultural and institutional reform 1441 01:31:29,247 --> 01:31:32,478 to impose precarious wage work as the normal horizon 1442 01:31:32,647 --> 01:31:34,285 of labour for the working class. 1443 01:31:34,447 --> 01:31:37,007 The rise of this liberal-paternalist state, 1444 01:31:37,167 --> 01:31:39,237 liberal for the upper classes, for the employers, 1445 01:31:39,407 --> 01:31:42,205 paternalist for the working classes, 1446 01:31:42,367 --> 01:31:45,882 especially the casualized fractions of the new service proletariat: 1447 01:31:46,047 --> 01:31:49,119 Such is the face of the new state that we have today, 1448 01:31:49,287 --> 01:31:51,437 which brings about the advent of the "new economy" 1449 01:31:51,607 --> 01:31:53,359 When you hear "new economy", 1450 01:31:54,927 --> 01:31:57,999 ask the person who's talking about it 1451 01:31:58,167 --> 01:31:59,919 which "new economy" he means. 1452 01:32:00,087 --> 01:32:04,239 The "new economy" of Microsoft, computers and the Internet, 1453 01:32:04,407 --> 01:32:08,685 or the "new economy" of the prisons, Corrections Corporation of America? 1454 01:32:08,847 --> 01:32:09,836 Thank you. 1455 01:32:14,487 --> 01:32:17,365 You're on the road too much. 1456 01:32:19,007 --> 01:32:21,157 It's true, it's not good. 1457 01:32:21,687 --> 01:32:25,646 It can be fine psychologically and so on, but... 1458 01:32:27,847 --> 01:32:29,997 - It's also a way of avoiding... - Yes, you said it 1459 01:32:30,167 --> 01:32:32,920 ...chaining yourself to the work you have to do. 1460 01:32:33,087 --> 01:32:35,237 It's a procrastination technique. 1461 01:32:35,407 --> 01:32:37,079 Okay, but it's not good. Now it's an absolute priority: 1462 01:32:37,247 --> 01:32:41,081 In the next three years you have to put out three books, 1463 01:32:43,927 --> 01:32:46,487 no bullshitting around. - I know. I've begun: One down. 1464 01:32:49,847 --> 01:32:52,884 Okay, but it could have been a lot better. 1465 01:32:53,047 --> 01:32:55,607 You could have done it a lot faster, 1466 01:32:56,807 --> 01:32:58,957 based on the talk you gave in my seminar. 1467 01:32:59,127 --> 01:33:02,915 A book like I did on television, very short and light. 1468 01:33:03,087 --> 01:33:05,999 And then a second book, that would have taken more time 1469 01:33:06,167 --> 01:33:07,520 than you took on this one. 1470 01:33:07,687 --> 01:33:10,565 This one is neither one thing nor the other. 1471 01:33:11,007 --> 01:33:13,726 It's a book for going to battle 1472 01:33:13,887 --> 01:33:16,765 but it's top heavy with scientific material. 1473 01:33:17,247 --> 01:33:20,922 It might have been better to do a bit more... 1474 01:33:21,607 --> 01:33:23,882 A bit more or a bit less. 1475 01:33:25,567 --> 01:33:27,046 That's it, it's too late now, that's the way it is. 1476 01:33:27,207 --> 01:33:29,402 This is why, this time, the deadlines... 1477 01:33:29,567 --> 01:33:32,684 One way of holding you back is to set deadlines. 1478 01:33:32,847 --> 01:33:34,758 With 'La Zone', for example, 1479 01:33:35,727 --> 01:33:37,683 if you have no deadlines 1480 01:33:37,847 --> 01:33:40,077 the introduction is going to grow to 150 pages 1481 01:33:41,527 --> 01:33:43,165 And you'll be done for. 1482 01:33:44,607 --> 01:33:47,121 I do realise that myself. 1483 01:33:47,487 --> 01:33:50,399 I set myself these outlandish standards. 1484 01:33:51,287 --> 01:33:55,599 I should have wrapped up 'La Zone' in 1994. 1485 01:33:56,567 --> 01:33:59,161 But you live and learn. That's the craft sinking in. 1486 01:33:59,327 --> 01:34:02,285 Yes, but time is flying by. 1487 01:34:02,447 --> 01:34:05,166 It's true, time is flying by, you must not... 1488 01:34:05,327 --> 01:34:07,477 I don't want to be a pain, 1489 01:34:07,647 --> 01:34:11,481 but you'll end up panicking, you'll say... 1490 01:34:14,567 --> 01:34:17,877 No. I realise now that I have only one thing left to do: 1491 01:34:18,047 --> 01:34:20,322 I have to sit down and write books. 1492 01:34:20,487 --> 01:34:22,921 Not another one hundred articles. 1493 01:34:24,927 --> 01:34:26,155 There's no point. 1494 01:34:26,327 --> 01:34:28,238 You must do nothing but that for a year. 1495 01:34:28,447 --> 01:34:30,722 It's a pain to have to say it but... 1496 01:34:32,527 --> 01:34:35,599 At least for the serious writing phase, 1497 01:34:35,767 --> 01:34:38,884 that takes three months when you're doing nothing else. 1498 01:34:39,407 --> 01:34:42,205 Because it's thousands of small decisions to make. 1499 01:34:42,367 --> 01:34:45,006 "Do I put this here or there?" 1500 01:34:45,287 --> 01:34:48,085 And for that, you must have nothing else to think about. 1501 01:34:48,247 --> 01:34:51,080 I know that, for my major books, 1502 01:34:51,247 --> 01:34:54,796 Well, quite often, all the empirical work was done. 1503 01:34:54,967 --> 01:34:56,958 It was usually during the summer, which I stretched out, 1504 01:34:57,127 --> 01:35:01,643 when I'd go away from June to the end of September... 1505 01:35:02,527 --> 01:35:06,679 I didn't do only that, I'd play tennis and go to the pool, 1506 01:35:06,847 --> 01:35:08,963 but at bottom, I was thinking only about my book. 1507 01:35:09,127 --> 01:35:13,006 Often, very minor details, 1508 01:35:13,167 --> 01:35:15,237 to change a subtitle for example, 1509 01:35:15,407 --> 01:35:16,999 sometimes you're stuck, 1510 01:35:17,167 --> 01:35:21,558 You thought that this was a section, when it should be its own chapter... 1511 01:35:22,807 --> 01:35:24,798 - It changes the book. - Completely. 1512 01:35:26,407 --> 01:35:30,480 You think about it all the time, it becomes an obsession. 1513 01:35:31,247 --> 01:35:34,284 And so, if you interrupt that with a trip or something, 1514 01:35:34,447 --> 01:35:36,802 you lose the thread. 1515 01:35:37,487 --> 01:35:40,957 When you take a clean break, for three-four days, 1516 01:35:42,007 --> 01:35:44,475 I go back to the text, I've forgotten everything. 1517 01:35:44,687 --> 01:35:47,997 Then you have to reread everything. 1518 01:35:48,207 --> 01:35:52,120 Now when I break off, even if it's only overnight, 1519 01:35:52,927 --> 01:35:56,522 I write a few lines to carry me through the transition, 1520 01:35:56,687 --> 01:35:59,076 because so many times I found myself unable 1521 01:36:00,047 --> 01:36:02,481 to finish a sentence that I started 1522 01:36:03,207 --> 01:36:05,437 after an interval of... 1523 01:36:06,287 --> 01:36:10,246 Even more so for a week. That's, say, three conferences 1524 01:36:13,127 --> 01:36:14,765 on different topics, with fifteen different people 1525 01:36:14,927 --> 01:36:16,440 and three languages. 1526 01:36:16,607 --> 01:36:19,121 It has a terrible effect on you. 1527 01:36:21,087 --> 01:36:24,557 That's why I say you must have two years... 1528 01:36:24,727 --> 01:36:28,163 Next year, when I go back from New York to Berkeley, 1529 01:36:28,567 --> 01:36:31,604 I think I'll spend the whole year in Berkeley, 1530 01:36:31,767 --> 01:36:34,804 including the summer. 1531 01:36:34,967 --> 01:36:38,084 Because I want to finish everything, 1532 01:36:38,247 --> 01:36:40,044 including the boxing study that year. 1533 01:36:40,207 --> 01:36:42,880 And move on to something else. 1534 01:36:43,247 --> 01:36:44,999 I'm not going drag it along with me forever. 1535 01:36:45,607 --> 01:36:48,883 I think it's crucial that you get a book out by February, 1536 01:36:49,127 --> 01:36:51,402 an important book. 1537 01:36:52,887 --> 01:36:55,560 You should do the boxing book for 2001 1538 01:36:55,727 --> 01:36:59,561 and the ghetto book for 2002 1539 01:36:59,727 --> 01:37:02,195 The stock-taking of... 1540 01:37:03,487 --> 01:37:05,478 all your stuff on America. 1541 01:37:06,007 --> 01:37:08,999 - I'll finish it before then. - You'd better! 1542 01:37:22,447 --> 01:37:24,358 Mr Bourdieu, can you hear me? 1543 01:37:24,527 --> 01:37:26,199 Do you hear me? 1544 01:37:28,687 --> 01:37:30,882 Do you hear me? 1545 01:37:37,567 --> 01:37:39,922 My colleague told me to speak softly 1546 01:37:40,127 --> 01:37:42,960 so I'm not too loud in Gunter Grass's ear, 1547 01:37:43,127 --> 01:37:44,799 via his mike. 1548 01:37:45,487 --> 01:37:47,557 I get the feeling 1549 01:37:48,447 --> 01:37:50,961 that we're about to start... 1550 01:37:54,287 --> 01:37:58,246 There's a question I'd like to ask. I've noticed, 1551 01:37:58,407 --> 01:38:01,444 but it's probably part of the discipline sociology demands, 1552 01:38:02,567 --> 01:38:05,001 that there's no humour in these books. 1553 01:38:05,167 --> 01:38:08,079 The comedy of failure, for example, 1554 01:38:08,247 --> 01:38:11,284 which plays an important part in my books, 1555 01:38:11,447 --> 01:38:15,360 the absurdity which arises from certain confrontations... 1556 01:38:15,527 --> 01:38:18,166 there's none of that in this book. 1557 01:38:19,047 --> 01:38:20,196 Don't misunderstand me. 1558 01:38:20,687 --> 01:38:22,564 I don't mean that the comic 1559 01:38:22,727 --> 01:38:25,525 and the tragic are mutually exclusive. 1560 01:38:25,767 --> 01:38:28,759 The boundaries between the two are always blurred. 1561 01:38:28,967 --> 01:38:32,004 But today we don't analyze it with the values of the Enlightenment. 1562 01:38:32,407 --> 01:38:33,999 Yes but... 1563 01:38:36,567 --> 01:38:38,637 My feeling is that 1564 01:38:39,207 --> 01:38:41,482 this sense we have 1565 01:38:41,767 --> 01:38:44,235 of having lost the tradition of the Enlightenment 1566 01:38:45,767 --> 01:38:49,043 is linked to the overthrow of our whole vision of the world, 1567 01:38:49,207 --> 01:38:51,596 that was imposed by the neo-liberal vision 1568 01:38:51,767 --> 01:38:53,644 which is the dominant vision today. 1569 01:38:53,887 --> 01:38:58,119 I think... and here in Germany I can use this comparison, 1570 01:39:00,207 --> 01:39:03,324 I think that the neo-liberal revolution 1571 01:39:03,487 --> 01:39:05,318 is a conservative revolution 1572 01:39:05,487 --> 01:39:08,126 in the sense that people talked of a "conservative revolution" 1573 01:39:08,287 --> 01:39:10,005 in Germany in the 1930s. 1574 01:39:10,327 --> 01:39:11,965 A conservative revolution 1575 01:39:12,167 --> 01:39:15,398 is a very strange thing. It's a revolution which seems to... 1576 01:39:16,447 --> 01:39:19,644 which reinstates the past, returns to the past, 1577 01:39:20,207 --> 01:39:24,962 and yet it dresses itself up as progressive. 1578 01:39:26,007 --> 01:39:27,998 Regression is turned into progress. 1579 01:39:28,167 --> 01:39:31,045 So that those who fight this regression 1580 01:39:32,087 --> 01:39:34,726 seem to be regressive themselves, 1581 01:39:35,047 --> 01:39:39,598 those who fight terror look themselves like terrorists. 1582 01:39:39,767 --> 01:39:43,237 This is one thing we've suffered in common, 1583 01:39:44,847 --> 01:39:47,441 we're frequently called archaic. 1584 01:39:47,607 --> 01:39:50,724 In French we say 'ringard', old-fashioned, backward... 1585 01:39:52,447 --> 01:39:54,244 - Dinosaurian! - Exactly, dinosaurian. 1586 01:39:56,207 --> 01:39:58,038 That's their great strength. 1587 01:39:58,207 --> 01:40:00,641 Even what you just said, I believe, 1588 01:40:01,127 --> 01:40:03,516 if I may say so, partakes of this idea: 1589 01:40:03,687 --> 01:40:05,245 We're told: "You're not funny!" 1590 01:40:05,407 --> 01:40:09,764 But these are not funny times. 1591 01:40:11,607 --> 01:40:13,086 There's nothing to laugh about. 1592 01:40:14,927 --> 01:40:16,406 I didn't say that. 1593 01:40:16,567 --> 01:40:18,922 I didn't say these were funny times. 1594 01:40:19,567 --> 01:40:20,682 All I said 1595 01:40:21,207 --> 01:40:24,597 was that the sarcastic, sardonic, diabolical laughter, 1596 01:40:24,767 --> 01:40:26,758 which literature can liberate, 1597 01:40:26,927 --> 01:40:28,724 is also a way of protesting. 1598 01:40:30,287 --> 01:40:32,323 But this conservative revolution 1599 01:40:34,727 --> 01:40:36,479 they're selling us today 1600 01:40:36,687 --> 01:40:38,439 as "neo-liberalism" 1601 01:40:38,647 --> 01:40:40,763 is just a return to the methods 1602 01:40:40,927 --> 01:40:43,441 used in Manchester in the 19th century. 1603 01:40:43,727 --> 01:40:46,924 They think they can turn back history, and they're right. 1604 01:40:47,127 --> 01:40:48,640 Yes... 1605 01:40:48,847 --> 01:40:53,443 but the strength of neo-liberalism is that it's applied in Europe 1606 01:40:53,607 --> 01:40:55,484 by people who call themselves socialists. 1607 01:40:55,647 --> 01:40:57,683 Whether it is 1608 01:40:57,887 --> 01:41:01,596 Schröder, or Blair, or Jospin, 1609 01:41:02,247 --> 01:41:06,001 they invoke socialism in order to practise neo-liberalism. 1610 01:41:07,607 --> 01:41:10,565 And this makes analysis and critique 1611 01:41:10,767 --> 01:41:13,884 extremely difficult because, once again, 1612 01:41:14,047 --> 01:41:16,845 everything's back-to-front. 1613 01:41:17,887 --> 01:41:19,684 And critique is... 1614 01:41:22,247 --> 01:41:24,715 In fact we have surrendered to the economy. 1615 01:41:25,807 --> 01:41:28,879 Today the state is stripped of its power to a degree 1616 01:41:29,847 --> 01:41:32,236 the anarchists would never have dreamt of. 1617 01:41:33,087 --> 01:41:36,443 I never believed that I would see the day 1618 01:41:37,967 --> 01:41:41,004 where I would argue in favour of more state intervention. 1619 01:41:41,767 --> 01:41:44,361 But that's where I stand now. I'm in a very strange situation 1620 01:41:44,567 --> 01:41:47,764 because I find myself compelled to ask 1621 01:41:47,927 --> 01:41:50,964 that the state be given more responsibility 1622 01:41:51,127 --> 01:41:53,800 so that it can play its part as a regulator. 1623 01:41:54,007 --> 01:41:56,840 This is just the kind of reversal I meant. 1624 01:41:57,007 --> 01:41:58,565 Paradoxically, 1625 01:42:00,047 --> 01:42:04,404 we're forced to defend things which aren't completely defensible. 1626 01:42:04,567 --> 01:42:07,240 Can we limit ourselves to saying that we need 1627 01:42:07,407 --> 01:42:09,796 to return to more state intervention? 1628 01:42:10,367 --> 01:42:13,962 It seems to me that if we don't want to be trapped 1629 01:42:14,127 --> 01:42:16,322 in the game of the conservative revolution, 1630 01:42:17,727 --> 01:42:19,524 we need to say that we must invent a new state. 1631 01:42:20,367 --> 01:42:22,278 Otherwise they'll tell us, 1632 01:42:22,767 --> 01:42:24,086 "You're regressing". 1633 01:42:24,927 --> 01:42:27,202 There, we've finished. 1634 01:42:28,367 --> 01:42:33,236 Like in a charter plane just after landing. 1635 01:42:36,127 --> 01:42:37,640 Right, that's it. 1636 01:42:48,087 --> 01:42:49,645 "They say we're not funny. 1637 01:42:49,807 --> 01:42:52,367 "But these are not funny times. There's nothing to laugh about." 1638 01:43:16,887 --> 01:43:19,162 But you have to describe... 1639 01:43:19,967 --> 01:43:22,162 Can I do it? 1640 01:43:27,207 --> 01:43:30,324 Can I do it? I don't think so. 1641 01:43:30,487 --> 01:43:32,239 I've been talking for an hour. 1642 01:43:32,407 --> 01:43:34,716 Almost Another ten minutes. 1643 01:43:40,287 --> 01:43:42,403 Well, we have to go back. 1644 01:43:42,567 --> 01:43:46,116 I said something there, that we should think seriously 1645 01:43:46,287 --> 01:43:49,245 about what we mean by "local", "location", "relocation"... 1646 01:43:51,007 --> 01:43:52,679 But I can't do it. 1647 01:43:53,247 --> 01:43:55,715 It would take too long to go into detail... 1648 01:43:55,887 --> 01:43:59,357 It's not easy to get to the crux of the matter. 1649 01:44:06,047 --> 01:44:07,560 No, I can't. 1650 01:44:08,367 --> 01:44:10,722 There. Please excuse me. 1651 01:44:10,927 --> 01:44:11,916 There... 1652 01:44:13,447 --> 01:44:16,837 I should have taken half an hour to reread my notes first. 1653 01:44:18,047 --> 01:44:20,686 We had planned to go to the hotel first... 1654 01:44:20,847 --> 01:44:23,486 I was busy right up to the last minute 1655 01:44:24,007 --> 01:44:26,202 and when you have old notes like this... 1656 01:44:28,207 --> 01:44:30,880 But, for all that, you managed very well. 1657 01:44:31,047 --> 01:44:32,685 And the discussion part went very well. 1658 01:44:32,847 --> 01:44:35,884 On the whole it was a success. 1659 01:44:36,047 --> 01:44:38,607 The audience was very kind. 1660 01:44:38,767 --> 01:44:41,884 Yes. They were looking forward to seeing you. 1661 01:45:26,527 --> 01:45:29,917 We're looking for a title, for our film on Pierre Bourdieu. 1662 01:45:30,087 --> 01:45:31,566 A film title. 1663 01:45:33,207 --> 01:45:34,686 Off the top of my head? 1664 01:45:35,847 --> 01:45:39,681 I don't know, maybe something about the way he looks at you. 1665 01:45:40,767 --> 01:45:42,325 Something about his gaze. 1666 01:45:42,487 --> 01:45:46,924 He has a very sly gaze, very sharp. 1667 01:45:48,647 --> 01:45:51,207 I remember, at school, 1668 01:45:51,367 --> 01:45:54,325 I was always being punished 1669 01:45:55,167 --> 01:45:56,600 for being insolent. 1670 01:45:56,767 --> 01:45:59,520 In fact, it was because of my eyes, always... 1671 01:46:00,647 --> 01:46:03,320 With a sociologist, it's all in the gaze. 1672 01:46:03,647 --> 01:46:05,478 Something about the eyes. 1673 01:46:06,327 --> 01:46:09,205 "The Sideway Gaze"? 1674 01:46:11,127 --> 01:46:13,163 - The what? - "The Sideway Gaze". 1675 01:46:13,567 --> 01:46:16,161 No, that's for Sartre. 1676 01:46:18,207 --> 01:46:20,118 "None the Wiser." 1677 01:46:20,287 --> 01:46:22,755 No, "I pull one over you", that doesn't sound very good. 1678 01:46:23,767 --> 01:46:25,405 Like tonight... 1679 01:46:29,607 --> 01:46:31,404 I don't feel very wise tonight. 1680 01:46:47,087 --> 01:46:51,126 [José Bové on radio] Well, in our discussions with the farmers here, 1681 01:46:51,287 --> 01:46:54,120 especially with the Indian farmers, 1682 01:46:54,287 --> 01:46:55,766 who are here with us... 1683 01:46:56,287 --> 01:46:59,165 They've done a lot of damage to agro-chemical multinationals. 1684 01:46:59,327 --> 01:47:02,080 The Indian farmers were the ones who went after Cargill, 1685 01:47:02,247 --> 01:47:03,885 after Monsanto, 1686 01:47:04,047 --> 01:47:06,766 and food multinationals like... 1687 01:47:07,247 --> 01:47:09,238 Kentucky Fried Chicken. 1688 01:47:09,967 --> 01:47:14,404 They have a very radical critique of intensive production, 1689 01:47:14,567 --> 01:47:17,843 so their vision is very ecological in the sense that 1690 01:47:18,007 --> 01:47:22,080 ecology is political and linked to production. 1691 01:47:22,327 --> 01:47:25,285 [Radio journalist Daniel Mermet] As concerns junk food, 1692 01:47:25,447 --> 01:47:28,757 you've managed to demonstrate the link 1693 01:47:28,927 --> 01:47:32,681 between a finance-oriented economy and what we eat. 1694 01:47:33,007 --> 01:47:34,679 But, in other domains, José Bové, 1695 01:47:34,847 --> 01:47:36,599 in health, for example, 1696 01:47:36,767 --> 01:47:39,406 did you find other movements in Seattle, 1697 01:47:39,567 --> 01:47:42,525 that managed to establish this link? 1698 01:47:42,807 --> 01:47:45,765 José... Excuse me. 1699 01:47:48,047 --> 01:47:49,480 Bourdieu. 1700 01:47:52,967 --> 01:47:54,525 So, for people of my generation, 1701 01:47:54,687 --> 01:47:57,485 we were encouraged since the 1970s 1702 01:47:57,927 --> 01:47:59,280 to train for jobs 1703 01:47:59,447 --> 01:48:02,245 which school counsellors and some teachers 1704 01:48:02,407 --> 01:48:06,446 knew were bound to disappear. 1705 01:48:07,327 --> 01:48:08,726 That's why, today, 1706 01:48:08,887 --> 01:48:12,243 there are 35 year-old skilled machine-operators, 1707 01:48:13,367 --> 01:48:15,198 who are on the scrap heap. 1708 01:48:15,607 --> 01:48:18,280 It's the same with the younger generation. 1709 01:48:19,047 --> 01:48:21,959 There's talk about the year 2000, about the Y2K bug, 1710 01:48:22,127 --> 01:48:26,598 about unemployment going down, 1711 01:48:26,767 --> 01:48:28,883 about "incivility"... 1712 01:48:29,047 --> 01:48:31,163 All these words, for us, are... 1713 01:48:31,327 --> 01:48:33,477 We feel like we're living on another planet, 1714 01:48:33,647 --> 01:48:35,797 20,000 leagues under the ground, not under the sea! 1715 01:48:38,327 --> 01:48:40,636 I don't really know how to answer. 1716 01:48:42,087 --> 01:48:44,043 I'll ask you not to clap. 1717 01:48:44,207 --> 01:48:47,597 Because truth isn't measured by clap-o-meters, okay? 1718 01:48:48,007 --> 01:48:50,043 Leave that to television. 1719 01:48:50,207 --> 01:48:52,721 - Not answering me? - I didn't mean you. 1720 01:48:54,367 --> 01:48:55,925 What does "media-friendly" mean? 1721 01:48:56,087 --> 01:48:59,477 You know very well. Look at the crowd here tonight. 1722 01:49:00,767 --> 01:49:03,645 Come on, but let's be serious. 1723 01:49:03,807 --> 01:49:07,163 Since I'm the subject and object of what you're saying, 1724 01:49:07,327 --> 01:49:09,716 it's hard for me to answer. 1725 01:49:09,927 --> 01:49:12,282 But if being media-friendly 1726 01:49:12,447 --> 01:49:16,918 means attracting lots of people to an discussion in Val Fourré... 1727 01:49:19,247 --> 01:49:23,843 That's not what it is. It means being in the media every day... 1728 01:49:26,327 --> 01:49:29,160 Thank you, Sir: It means being the instrument of the media, 1729 01:49:29,327 --> 01:49:32,046 the diligent servant of the media. 1730 01:49:32,207 --> 01:49:34,596 It's someone who says in the media 1731 01:49:34,767 --> 01:49:37,964 what the media ask their media-friendly intellectuals to say, 1732 01:49:38,367 --> 01:49:40,722 which, all too often, means saying nothing. 1733 01:49:41,847 --> 01:49:44,315 To talk without saying anything, 1734 01:49:44,927 --> 01:49:46,758 to give false explanations, 1735 01:49:46,927 --> 01:49:50,317 to say, "Oh, another riot in Val Fourré." 1736 01:49:50,487 --> 01:49:52,637 It's... I don't know what. 1737 01:49:52,847 --> 01:49:56,920 It's spouting bullshit with authority and confidence, 1738 01:49:57,087 --> 01:49:59,157 and being paid for that, getting invited for that. 1739 01:49:59,327 --> 01:50:01,318 That's what media-friendly is. 1740 01:50:02,767 --> 01:50:05,600 That's an intellectual argument. 1741 01:50:05,767 --> 01:50:07,405 All right, all right. 1742 01:50:07,567 --> 01:50:09,319 No, wait, I'd like to say... 1743 01:50:10,967 --> 01:50:13,162 I'd like to say a few words. Wait! 1744 01:50:13,327 --> 01:50:15,283 We have a problem here. 1745 01:50:15,807 --> 01:50:18,241 I'm sorry but tonight we're having an intellectual debate, Mounir, 1746 01:50:18,407 --> 01:50:23,003 which means we're thinking this out together. 1747 01:50:23,207 --> 01:50:26,677 For me, "intellectual" isn't a term of abuse. 1748 01:50:26,847 --> 01:50:30,635 First thing. So I'd like us to try to have... 1749 01:50:30,807 --> 01:50:34,595 Mounir, it's easy to stand there and have a go at Bourdieu, 1750 01:50:34,767 --> 01:50:38,840 and then feel smart about it. 1751 01:50:39,287 --> 01:50:41,881 I know you can do it. You've already started. 1752 01:50:42,727 --> 01:50:44,604 Go on, then! 1753 01:50:44,767 --> 01:50:47,406 I'd just like to say something. 1754 01:50:47,567 --> 01:50:50,798 No, don't raise your hand yet. I want to say a few words. 1755 01:50:51,727 --> 01:50:53,160 I'd just like to say a few words. 1756 01:50:53,327 --> 01:50:56,000 I'm a bit disappointed by one thing. 1757 01:50:56,167 --> 01:50:59,682 This debate is called "A reflection with Bourdieu 1758 01:50:59,847 --> 01:51:03,362 "on inequalities in education and culture". 1759 01:51:03,527 --> 01:51:06,325 We started off by talking about education. 1760 01:51:06,487 --> 01:51:08,842 There's lots to say about that. 1761 01:51:09,007 --> 01:51:11,157 What I would like... 1762 01:51:11,327 --> 01:51:13,887 I had hoped that Mounir and others, would say certain things about that, 1763 01:51:14,047 --> 01:51:16,720 rather than have a go at Bourdieu, 1764 01:51:16,887 --> 01:51:19,799 would talk about their own experience of inequality. 1765 01:51:20,087 --> 01:51:23,921 No, wait, can you just listen for a minute? 1766 01:51:24,087 --> 01:51:27,921 I'd hoped you'd tell us things, interesting things, 1767 01:51:28,087 --> 01:51:30,237 that you'd give us the benefit of your reflection, 1768 01:51:30,407 --> 01:51:32,318 which is genuine, which you've carried on for years. 1769 01:51:32,487 --> 01:51:35,797 I came here tonight to listen to a sociologist. 1770 01:51:36,967 --> 01:51:39,162 I think there are other people here tonight 1771 01:51:39,327 --> 01:51:43,605 with things to say about inequality in culture and education, 1772 01:51:43,807 --> 01:51:47,686 and who'd like to discuss them with someone like Pierre Bourdieu, 1773 01:51:47,847 --> 01:51:50,998 but without having a go at him. That gets us nowhere. 1774 01:51:51,167 --> 01:51:53,044 So who would like to speak? 1775 01:51:53,887 --> 01:51:58,085 It's hard growing up in the context we grew up in. 1776 01:51:58,287 --> 01:52:02,280 The inequalities started coming when our environment started changing. 1777 01:52:02,447 --> 01:52:04,756 Our generation 1778 01:52:04,927 --> 01:52:06,246 - I was born in 1967 - 1779 01:52:06,407 --> 01:52:09,205 has very clear memories of our childhood 1780 01:52:09,367 --> 01:52:12,837 which today's youngsters don't have, because they no longer have 1781 01:52:13,007 --> 01:52:16,317 the open spaces, the greenery, the vacant lots... 1782 01:52:16,487 --> 01:52:19,763 Then people came along and started building 1783 01:52:19,927 --> 01:52:23,283 without bothering that all our childhood was there. 1784 01:52:23,447 --> 01:52:25,005 They put up buildings 1785 01:52:25,167 --> 01:52:28,125 where now you stand in line to draw 100 francs 1786 01:52:28,287 --> 01:52:30,642 or your food coupons. 1787 01:52:30,807 --> 01:52:33,605 I think that everyday you're insulted. 1788 01:52:33,967 --> 01:52:36,720 Lots of people who know this but they keep quiet. 1789 01:52:37,247 --> 01:52:41,525 They're aware of it but their silence condones it. 1790 01:52:41,687 --> 01:52:44,121 It's easier to say, "Yes, 1791 01:52:44,287 --> 01:52:47,279 "I work in the free zone. It's really tough." 1792 01:52:47,447 --> 01:52:49,403 But in the end, they're not up to it. 1793 01:52:49,567 --> 01:52:51,478 Proof is, we get teachers 1794 01:52:51,647 --> 01:52:53,956 they're 20-22 years old, 1795 01:52:54,127 --> 01:52:55,845 they've already had their heads crammed with, 1796 01:52:56,007 --> 01:52:59,716 "If you want a transfer, you have to do your time in the zoo. 1797 01:52:59,887 --> 01:53:03,163 "Then you can go back home to your Toulouse..." 1798 01:53:03,327 --> 01:53:05,921 or your Cantal or wherever. 1799 01:53:06,087 --> 01:53:08,521 They're stressed out when they land here. 1800 01:53:08,687 --> 01:53:11,520 And the kids, they're not fooled, they can sense all that. 1801 01:53:11,767 --> 01:53:15,555 We ask for cultural centres, they give us a big police station 1802 01:53:15,847 --> 01:53:17,883 with these statues out in front, 1803 01:53:18,047 --> 01:53:19,799 to claim that they too know culture. 1804 01:53:19,967 --> 01:53:24,245 But if you take away the statues 1805 01:53:24,407 --> 01:53:25,965 you know what you'll see? 1806 01:53:26,127 --> 01:53:29,563 Nothing but the police station and the brutality it represents. 1807 01:53:29,767 --> 01:53:33,316 There are people who want to keep us down. 1808 01:53:33,487 --> 01:53:35,523 What's the use? Bourdieu's here, 1809 01:53:37,127 --> 01:53:39,800 he can talk about Seattle, then bang, he's gone! 1810 01:53:39,967 --> 01:53:41,878 What do we know about Seattle? 1811 01:53:42,047 --> 01:53:46,563 People have trouble understanding the Euro. Now it's the Year 2000. 1812 01:53:46,727 --> 01:53:50,276 What's the Year 2000 going to do for us? 1813 01:53:51,047 --> 01:53:52,446 Really, what's in it for us? 1814 01:53:52,607 --> 01:53:55,679 We get these stores where everything costs ten francs. 1815 01:53:55,847 --> 01:53:58,156 We get sandwiches for ten francs. 1816 01:53:58,327 --> 01:54:01,763 We're worth ten francs, we get cut-price food, 1817 01:54:01,927 --> 01:54:03,883 everything's cut-price, we're cut-price. 1818 01:54:04,047 --> 01:54:07,039 They sell us eggs... 1819 01:54:07,207 --> 01:54:10,404 Where do you see this: 60 eggs for 20 francs! 1820 01:54:10,567 --> 01:54:13,127 Then they talk about salmonella... 1821 01:54:13,287 --> 01:54:14,879 But people here they don't catch on, 1822 01:54:15,647 --> 01:54:17,797 and they know we don't catch on! 1823 01:54:17,967 --> 01:54:21,596 I'm talking about inequalities I've experienced here, 1824 01:54:21,807 --> 01:54:24,526 working as a social worker. 1825 01:54:24,687 --> 01:54:28,316 I've done my part, right here where you're sitting. 1826 01:54:28,727 --> 01:54:30,285 We built this place, 1827 01:54:30,447 --> 01:54:33,996 but it was always empty because people were scared of Val Fourré. 1828 01:54:34,167 --> 01:54:36,556 Tonight Bourdieu is here so everyone is here. 1829 01:54:36,767 --> 01:54:38,564 So I say that inequalities... 1830 01:54:38,727 --> 01:54:40,604 It's no coincidence. 1831 01:54:40,767 --> 01:54:44,806 We here in the housing estates, we're a source of wealth, 1832 01:54:44,967 --> 01:54:48,118 Well, you tricked our parents and our grandparents. 1833 01:54:48,287 --> 01:54:51,563 And with us it's time it stopped, for real. 1834 01:54:55,487 --> 01:54:58,047 We've had it all, 1835 01:54:58,207 --> 01:55:01,119 police brutality, public defenders... 1836 01:55:01,287 --> 01:55:03,847 We always get the public defenders. You get one and you're screwed! 1837 01:55:04,087 --> 01:55:05,076 Straight up! 1838 01:55:05,247 --> 01:55:07,841 Papon [Senior police officer of the Vichy government], 1839 01:55:08,007 --> 01:55:10,202 he fucked some people up - excuse my language - 1840 01:55:10,447 --> 01:55:12,756 and we're supposed to let him off? 1841 01:55:12,927 --> 01:55:16,203 How do you expect us to believe in anything? 1842 01:55:16,367 --> 01:55:19,882 We say the justice system only keeps the peace for the keepers. 1843 01:55:20,047 --> 01:55:21,958 It's true. How many police murders? Just a coincidence? 1844 01:55:22,127 --> 01:55:25,005 In Mantes, a bullet in the back of the neck. 1845 01:55:25,167 --> 01:55:28,045 In St-Denis, back of the neck, in Trappes, back of the neck. 1846 01:55:28,207 --> 01:55:31,882 But wait, who stands up for us? No one! 1847 01:55:32,047 --> 01:55:33,958 There were movements, but they got bought off. 1848 01:55:34,127 --> 01:55:36,846 To answer your question: Because they got bought off. 1849 01:55:37,007 --> 01:55:40,477 On the estate, there is a special branch cop every square metre. 1850 01:55:40,927 --> 01:55:42,076 We can't do anything. 1851 01:55:42,247 --> 01:55:44,715 The cops, they even know our nicknames. 1852 01:55:44,887 --> 01:55:47,003 They know everything about us. 1853 01:55:47,167 --> 01:55:51,001 So here we are, enslaved, imprisoned by our own selves. 1854 01:55:51,167 --> 01:55:54,239 If we want to make a film or use a camera, 1855 01:55:54,487 --> 01:55:56,796 to do something, to show the truth, 1856 01:55:56,967 --> 01:56:00,004 our own people are the ones who ask, "Why are you doing that?" 1857 01:56:00,167 --> 01:56:02,044 Whereas on the other side they can do whatever they want. 1858 01:56:02,207 --> 01:56:04,038 Everything's been in reverse for a long time now. 1859 01:56:04,207 --> 01:56:08,086 I think it's time everybody woke up. 1860 01:56:08,247 --> 01:56:10,044 Give us a real education, give us people with skills 1861 01:56:11,207 --> 01:56:13,437 who aren't just here to boast about it 1862 01:56:13,607 --> 01:56:14,756 and take from us what they can. 1863 01:56:14,927 --> 01:56:17,282 And once they're out of Mantes-la-Jolie or St-Denis, 1864 01:56:17,447 --> 01:56:21,201 it's, "Yeah, I worked in the banlieue, It's rough!" 1865 01:56:21,367 --> 01:56:23,198 I've worked with lots like that. 1866 01:56:23,367 --> 01:56:27,076 I've been an educator for ten years and I've left it sick of it. 1867 01:56:30,407 --> 01:56:32,318 There, I'm finished now. 1868 01:56:32,487 --> 01:56:35,047 Now if you want to talk to Bourdieu, it's Bourdieu, not Dieu [God]! 1869 01:56:35,207 --> 01:56:36,560 Don't be mistaken! 1870 01:56:38,567 --> 01:56:40,125 A lot of what he said is true, 1871 01:56:40,287 --> 01:56:43,802 but there's one thing that's false Said, 1872 01:56:44,207 --> 01:56:48,041 This cultural centre... When you say, 1873 01:56:48,207 --> 01:56:49,845 "Nice of you to come when Bourdieu is here, 1874 01:56:50,007 --> 01:56:52,043 "but it's empty otherwise." 1875 01:56:52,407 --> 01:56:53,317 I can tell you that's true. 1876 01:56:53,487 --> 01:56:55,842 When you come to see a movie and there's two or three of you, 1877 01:56:56,007 --> 01:56:57,201 the room is really big. 1878 01:56:57,367 --> 01:56:59,483 But it's not up to them to come, 1879 01:56:59,647 --> 01:57:02,400 It's up to us, the locals, to come. 1880 01:57:04,967 --> 01:57:09,040 Mounir called Bourdieu "José" 1881 01:57:09,367 --> 01:57:11,403 that's because he doesn't know him. 1882 01:57:11,767 --> 01:57:14,440 That's okay. But, Mounir, I can tell you... 1883 01:57:18,887 --> 01:57:21,924 I'm answering your question, Said, about people coming here. 1884 01:57:22,087 --> 01:57:23,566 It's not up to them to come, it's up to us to come, 1885 01:57:23,727 --> 01:57:25,399 to take action, to do things. 1886 01:57:25,567 --> 01:57:28,081 We can't wait for others to do them for us. 1887 01:57:28,807 --> 01:57:32,720 We're always the ones to make all the efforts and the concessions. 1888 01:57:33,127 --> 01:57:34,719 When you've got no choice, you have to make them. 1889 01:57:34,887 --> 01:57:36,400 When we go into Paris, 1890 01:57:36,687 --> 01:57:40,282 if we weren't artists we'd never get into some places. 1891 01:57:40,687 --> 01:57:44,441 But when they come here they do as they like. 1892 01:57:44,607 --> 01:57:49,158 I'm sick of going to Paris and to be turned away, 1893 01:57:49,327 --> 01:57:50,965 and to see the opposite here. 1894 01:57:51,127 --> 01:57:53,960 We're asked to make too many concessions, 1895 01:57:54,127 --> 01:57:55,845 all the time, all the time. 1896 01:57:56,007 --> 01:57:57,440 Our schools are in ZEPs. [Special education zone] 1897 01:57:57,607 --> 01:57:59,438 Why should I go to a ZEP? 1898 01:57:59,607 --> 01:58:02,326 "Zones of Educational Priority," that's bullshit! 1899 01:58:02,487 --> 01:58:04,398 Educational Poverty, more like! 1900 01:58:04,567 --> 01:58:07,798 We expect too much of others. We have to take responsibility. 1901 01:58:08,887 --> 01:58:12,084 I'd just like to say to Mounir... 1902 01:58:14,447 --> 01:58:15,596 Not between yourselves! 1903 01:58:15,767 --> 01:58:18,361 This isn't just conflicting ideas. 1904 01:58:18,527 --> 01:58:20,836 I'll have a question at the end. 1905 01:58:21,407 --> 01:58:25,400 This is a good image to give to Bourdieu. 1906 01:58:25,647 --> 01:58:28,639 Mounir is one of the most active figures in the neighbourhood, 1907 01:58:28,807 --> 01:58:30,843 and yet he doesn't know you... 1908 01:58:32,607 --> 01:58:34,086 Can I tell you why I don't? 1909 01:58:34,247 --> 01:58:37,125 But you could learn a lot from him, Mounir. 1910 01:58:37,287 --> 01:58:38,766 I've seen sociologists coming here for thirty years. 1911 01:58:39,327 --> 01:58:40,601 I've seen sociologists by the hundreds. 1912 01:58:40,767 --> 01:58:42,837 But read some of his books. 1913 01:58:43,007 --> 01:58:45,157 I guarantee you, he can help your thinking. 1914 01:58:45,327 --> 01:58:46,919 My reflection comes from God! 1915 01:58:52,847 --> 01:58:54,803 Okay, to get on, can I ask my question? 1916 01:58:54,967 --> 01:58:57,765 Go ahead, otherwise we'll never get on. 1917 01:58:57,967 --> 01:59:00,037 He said there are bad sociologists 1918 01:59:00,207 --> 01:59:03,324 and good sociologists, and so he's one of the good ones. 1919 01:59:04,367 --> 01:59:06,801 Everything depends on money: To some people we're scapegoats, 1920 01:59:06,967 --> 01:59:09,686 to others we're just an excuse. 1921 01:59:14,927 --> 01:59:19,284 We've got fifteen minutes left for the debate at the very most. 1922 01:59:19,927 --> 01:59:22,805 Just a second, I'll let you speak. 1923 01:59:22,967 --> 01:59:26,562 But for five minutes you've been talking amongst yourselves 1924 01:59:26,727 --> 01:59:30,083 and nobody gets it. Carry on your discussion later. 1925 01:59:30,247 --> 01:59:33,603 We've got fifteen minutes left, so ask your question, 1926 01:59:33,767 --> 01:59:35,325 and Pierre Bourdieu will reply, 1927 01:59:35,487 --> 01:59:37,876 and maybe we'll have time for another. 1928 01:59:40,207 --> 01:59:41,435 We have to stop. 1929 01:59:41,607 --> 01:59:43,916 It's a debate with Bourdieu But it's a debate between us, too. 1930 01:59:44,687 --> 01:59:45,403 I understand. 1931 01:59:45,567 --> 01:59:48,400 We've been rolling out the same old prejudices 1932 01:59:48,807 --> 01:59:53,198 that we learnt from the education system 1933 01:59:53,367 --> 01:59:55,483 we suffered from. 1934 01:59:55,647 --> 01:59:57,126 That what's creates the inequalities. 1935 01:59:57,287 --> 02:00:01,200 We're here to demystify all that. 1936 02:00:01,367 --> 02:00:03,323 Noone here has all the solutions, 1937 02:00:03,487 --> 02:00:05,796 Noone can say, "We have to do this and that." 1938 02:00:05,967 --> 02:00:09,482 It's all right to say, "We've experienced this and that," 1939 02:00:09,647 --> 02:00:13,276 but not to lay blame. Because it's not his fault if... 1940 02:00:13,447 --> 02:00:16,644 - Are you talking to me? - No, I speak in general. 1941 02:00:23,167 --> 02:00:27,046 All that's been said tonight... - should I say this? - 1942 02:00:27,207 --> 02:00:29,084 has been very interesting to me. 1943 02:00:29,247 --> 02:00:33,638 I think that... - maybe I'm wrong - 1944 02:00:33,847 --> 02:00:37,840 but at least if my presence has helped bring these things out, 1945 02:00:38,007 --> 02:00:39,725 then that's something. 1946 02:00:41,607 --> 02:00:46,044 I don't know if I furnished the occasion, the trigger... 1947 02:00:46,207 --> 02:00:49,483 At any rate, I'm very pleased to have heard a number of things, 1948 02:00:50,967 --> 02:00:54,926 some of which are very contradictory, 1949 02:00:55,967 --> 02:00:57,639 conflicting with one another... 1950 02:00:57,807 --> 02:01:00,640 and yet interesting and important. 1951 02:01:00,807 --> 02:01:02,798 That's how I heard it, anyway, 1952 02:01:02,967 --> 02:01:06,198 especially what Said said. There was a lot of truth in that, 1953 02:01:06,887 --> 02:01:10,118 as someone else over there already said, 1954 02:01:10,567 --> 02:01:12,398 there's a lot of truth in what he said. 1955 02:01:13,287 --> 02:01:14,879 When he said that... 1956 02:01:15,047 --> 02:01:16,685 How should I put it? 1957 02:01:16,847 --> 02:01:21,079 "It's always one-sided, always us who have to make the concessions." 1958 02:01:21,247 --> 02:01:23,886 He said something very important there. 1959 02:01:25,167 --> 02:01:29,285 The problem, though, is the pessimistic conclusion. 1960 02:01:29,767 --> 02:01:34,443 So now I say to him: Why conclude so pessimistically? 1961 02:01:34,607 --> 02:01:37,804 Why not listen to what was said here on my left? 1962 02:01:38,767 --> 02:01:40,439 "It's up to us to take action, 1963 02:01:41,127 --> 02:01:45,040 "to get things moving - I would add - collectively, 1964 02:01:45,207 --> 02:01:46,879 "it's up to us to get mobilised. 1965 02:01:47,327 --> 02:01:52,276 "And maybe we should make some concessions between ourselves 1966 02:01:52,727 --> 02:01:57,198 "so that we have fewer concessions to make to those we must fight." 1967 02:01:59,007 --> 02:02:02,124 I'm not preaching fraternity at any price. 1968 02:02:02,287 --> 02:02:04,482 There are conflicts everywhere. Here too! 1969 02:02:05,847 --> 02:02:08,122 I think conflicts are, in part, 1970 02:02:08,727 --> 02:02:11,639 the expression or the consequence 1971 02:02:12,007 --> 02:02:16,398 of the oppression suffered by the people who've spoken here. 1972 02:02:18,967 --> 02:02:22,118 The paradox is - and it's as old as the hills - 1973 02:02:23,527 --> 02:02:26,087 that the dominant divide the dominated. 1974 02:02:26,727 --> 02:02:29,161 And they don't even have to try to do so. 1975 02:02:30,007 --> 02:02:33,204 They say "divide and rule", but they don't even have to. 1976 02:02:33,367 --> 02:02:36,882 Conflicting interests, antagonisms, prejudice... 1977 02:02:37,047 --> 02:02:39,242 Someone mentioned prejudice. 1978 02:02:39,407 --> 02:02:42,365 I'm sorry but I think that he was completely right. 1979 02:02:42,847 --> 02:02:46,317 We're all full of prejudice. 1980 02:02:49,487 --> 02:02:53,400 One of the reasons why the work of the sociologist is so difficult 1981 02:02:53,567 --> 02:02:55,637 is because he too carries prejudice, 1982 02:02:57,887 --> 02:03:02,756 and he has as much of a struggle against his own as against others'. 1983 02:03:05,927 --> 02:03:08,999 I found this debate very moving 1984 02:03:09,167 --> 02:03:14,400 and, deep down, I'm glad that it took place. 1985 02:03:15,647 --> 02:03:20,163 And maybe... - but this is being optimistic - 1986 02:03:20,327 --> 02:03:24,445 maybe it could be the beginning of... 1987 02:03:24,607 --> 02:03:26,882 Someone made a mean allusion to 1988 02:03:27,047 --> 02:03:31,040 my role in a recent conflict at the radio France Culture 1989 02:03:32,967 --> 02:03:35,276 - they didn't mention my name but they obviously meant me - 1990 02:03:35,767 --> 02:03:41,080 that I had dispatched some agitprop experts at France Culture. 1991 02:03:41,247 --> 02:03:43,238 For the youngsters who don't know what "agitprop" is, 1992 02:03:43,407 --> 02:03:45,523 that means professional agitators, 1993 02:03:45,687 --> 02:03:47,996 they were individuals whose mission 1994 02:03:48,167 --> 02:03:51,762 was to go among the people and preach revolution. 1995 02:03:54,887 --> 02:03:58,482 So, if I've done just a little bit of agitprop myself here, 1996 02:03:58,847 --> 02:04:01,964 which, in all modesty, was in part my intention, 1997 02:04:04,647 --> 02:04:07,445 and if it's worked a bit, then I'm very happy. 1998 02:04:07,607 --> 02:04:10,280 One problem is how to continue this agitprop? 1999 02:04:10,447 --> 02:04:14,884 By creating an association, a discussion group? 2000 02:04:15,367 --> 02:04:17,323 How to continue this discussion? 2001 02:04:18,727 --> 02:04:22,003 In some respects, it's too easy. Bourdieu serves as your scapegoat. 2002 02:04:23,247 --> 02:04:24,805 It's a classic strategy: Kill the analyst. 2003 02:04:24,967 --> 02:04:28,596 It's easy: You make fun of him and get yourself noticed. 2004 02:04:29,527 --> 02:04:30,596 But when Bourdieu's gone, 2005 02:04:30,767 --> 02:04:34,760 if the effect produced this evening could go on 2006 02:04:34,927 --> 02:04:39,045 and the agitprop became self-managed, 2007 02:04:39,687 --> 02:04:43,760 and the agitated became agitators 2008 02:04:44,847 --> 02:04:46,565 - agitating themselves first of all - 2009 02:04:46,727 --> 02:04:50,083 then I'd be really happy. 2010 02:04:50,247 --> 02:04:52,363 I won't have been totally useless. 2011 02:04:53,447 --> 02:04:58,567 People bad-mouth sociologists, and often with good reason. 2012 02:04:59,007 --> 02:05:02,363 There are some... I don't recall who said, 2013 02:05:02,527 --> 02:05:04,643 "The social workers are part of the problem." 2014 02:05:04,807 --> 02:05:06,718 But in the work that we do... 2015 02:05:07,567 --> 02:05:09,444 Well, I won't say it here 2016 02:05:10,127 --> 02:05:13,278 because a social worker's work isn't fun every day, 2017 02:05:13,447 --> 02:05:16,803 but their relationship 2018 02:05:16,967 --> 02:05:19,720 with the people they work with is very complicated. 2019 02:05:19,887 --> 02:05:21,479 They're in a relationship of bad faith 2020 02:05:21,647 --> 02:05:24,559 If you read 'La Misére du Monde', there are some pathetic accounts 2021 02:05:25,247 --> 02:05:27,966 by social workers who know very well that they're helpless 2022 02:05:28,127 --> 02:05:31,483 and who spend half their time convincing themselves 2023 02:05:31,647 --> 02:05:33,478 that they serve a purpose 2024 02:05:34,607 --> 02:05:36,199 as well as making the people they're working with 2025 02:05:36,367 --> 02:05:38,642 believe that they serve a purpose. 2026 02:05:41,647 --> 02:05:44,366 Lots of teachers know that they are helpless, and so on. 2027 02:05:46,647 --> 02:05:49,719 These are some naive reactions. 2028 02:05:50,127 --> 02:05:53,199 But I was very moved 2029 02:05:53,367 --> 02:05:55,437 and maybe 2030 02:05:55,607 --> 02:05:58,644 this won't just be a flash in the pan. 2031 02:05:59,447 --> 02:06:01,039 Maybe this room, or another, 2032 02:06:01,487 --> 02:06:03,000 could become the site 2033 02:06:04,967 --> 02:06:07,356 where people start to take matters into their hand. 2034 02:06:08,447 --> 02:06:12,122 That all sounds a bit like I'm moralizing. 2035 02:06:12,287 --> 02:06:15,085 But we have to take matters into our own hands. 2036 02:06:15,247 --> 02:06:17,886 We have to get mobilised. 2037 02:06:18,047 --> 02:06:19,446 I remember, not long ago, 2038 02:06:19,607 --> 02:06:22,440 at the end of a debate similar to this one, 2039 02:06:22,607 --> 02:06:25,041 in Strasbourg, with German trade unions, 2040 02:06:25,207 --> 02:06:26,799 the sort of thing I explained... 2041 02:06:26,967 --> 02:06:31,119 Four young men of Arab descent addressed me: 2042 02:06:31,287 --> 02:06:36,077 "What's the use? My father, grandfather... Exploitation...", etc. 2043 02:06:36,887 --> 02:06:39,003 And I said to them, 2044 02:06:39,167 --> 02:06:42,523 "Why not start a movement mobilizing immigrants of all origins?" 2045 02:06:43,367 --> 02:06:47,406 Well, that's not the sort of thing you say in a university hall. 2046 02:06:47,807 --> 02:06:51,720 I said, "Why not? Why not?" 2047 02:06:52,007 --> 02:06:56,717 That's why the only thing I can't agree with 2048 02:06:56,887 --> 02:06:59,526 in what Said said is the pessimistic conclusion. 2049 02:06:59,687 --> 02:07:02,565 I don't think there's any reason why... 2050 02:07:05,487 --> 02:07:08,604 Your conclusion was a bit pessimistic, you must admit that. 2051 02:07:09,287 --> 02:07:10,686 Yes, okay, the observation, but... 2052 02:07:10,847 --> 02:07:13,759 The situation we're in 2053 02:07:13,927 --> 02:07:16,566 is a pessimistic one. 2054 02:07:16,727 --> 02:07:19,195 When you leave, the problem remains. 2055 02:07:19,367 --> 02:07:22,120 I agree, I'm not denying that. 2056 02:07:22,287 --> 02:07:25,996 I'm saying the observation is pessimistic and rightfully so. 2057 02:07:26,167 --> 02:07:29,398 But the conclusion was a bit... - at least that's what I heard - 2058 02:07:30,407 --> 02:07:34,116 "There's nothing we can do." I think that's not true. 2059 02:07:34,287 --> 02:07:37,723 It's not true and, what's more... - this is a classic - 2060 02:07:38,167 --> 02:07:40,635 the most bogus structures, 2061 02:07:40,807 --> 02:07:43,196 structures of manipulation, structures of management, 2062 02:07:43,367 --> 02:07:44,800 structures of supervision, 2063 02:07:44,967 --> 02:07:47,003 can be diverted, turned around. 2064 02:07:48,287 --> 02:07:49,845 Anyway... 2065 02:07:50,007 --> 02:07:52,282 I'm not here to preach revolution. 2066 02:07:54,287 --> 02:07:56,198 Two more questions... 2067 02:07:56,367 --> 02:07:59,165 And then a conclusion from Pierre Bourdieu. 2068 02:07:59,767 --> 02:08:02,600 The politicians are keeping a low profile tonight. 2069 02:08:02,767 --> 02:08:04,723 All commissions, in general, 2070 02:08:04,887 --> 02:08:07,037 when they're set up by politicians, 2071 02:08:07,567 --> 02:08:09,683 always include a sociologist. 2072 02:08:10,087 --> 02:08:11,042 Then the politicians 2073 02:08:12,327 --> 02:08:16,923 take the essence of what you write in your reports. 2074 02:08:17,767 --> 02:08:19,758 That's the first thing I wish to say. 2075 02:08:19,927 --> 02:08:23,476 As resident of this area, I think that the sociologist 2076 02:08:23,647 --> 02:08:25,842 is more like a housing estate psychiatrist. 2077 02:08:26,007 --> 02:08:27,565 Whenever there's a problem... 2078 02:08:27,727 --> 02:08:29,604 I'm sorry, but that's what we call them. 2079 02:08:29,807 --> 02:08:32,958 "Housing estate psychiatrist"? That's just insulting. 2080 02:08:33,607 --> 02:08:36,644 And it's not true. There may be some who... 2081 02:08:41,247 --> 02:08:43,841 Let's avoid internal discussions, not amongst yourselves! 2082 02:08:44,127 --> 02:08:47,039 That's how we see you. Face the truth! 2083 02:08:47,207 --> 02:08:48,196 It's true 2084 02:08:48,567 --> 02:08:50,523 that sociologists are... 2085 02:08:51,047 --> 02:08:54,676 The category of "sociologist" covers different types of people. 2086 02:08:57,447 --> 02:09:00,280 Maybe sociologists contribute 2087 02:09:00,687 --> 02:09:04,123 to inspiring politicians... No, if only that were true! 2088 02:09:04,327 --> 02:09:09,242 It's worse than that: They provide warrants to politicians 2089 02:09:09,407 --> 02:09:10,635 which is a lot worse. 2090 02:09:10,887 --> 02:09:13,560 Some sociologists, I'm sorry to say... 2091 02:09:13,727 --> 02:09:16,287 I don't consider them as colleagues, 2092 02:09:16,447 --> 02:09:19,723 they're scabs, they disgrace the profession... 2093 02:09:21,367 --> 02:09:24,006 I'm sorry but I'm compelled to say this. 2094 02:09:24,167 --> 02:09:26,317 I can't express solidarity with these guys. 2095 02:09:26,767 --> 02:09:28,758 I couldn't care less about them. 2096 02:09:28,927 --> 02:09:31,680 They don't bother me at all, 2097 02:09:31,847 --> 02:09:35,078 except insofar as they legitimise a certain generic revolt 2098 02:09:35,247 --> 02:09:36,965 against the discourse of sociologists, 2099 02:09:37,127 --> 02:09:40,483 and justify a definite anti-intellectualism. 2100 02:09:40,887 --> 02:09:44,004 It pains me to hear all this anti-intellectualism. 2101 02:09:44,167 --> 02:09:47,477 The French workers' movement died of anti-intellectualism. 2102 02:09:47,647 --> 02:09:51,356 It was founded on a sort of workerism. 2103 02:09:52,367 --> 02:09:55,677 Which allowed its leaders 2104 02:09:55,847 --> 02:09:58,236 to be stupid and to demand stupidity of people 2105 02:09:58,887 --> 02:10:01,447 in the name of party discipline. 2106 02:10:03,127 --> 02:10:06,119 That's why I must mark my distance from those people. 2107 02:10:06,287 --> 02:10:11,441 Because it's too easy to denounce these people who are... 2108 02:10:11,967 --> 02:10:16,438 Yes, scabs. They're scabs. These are people 2109 02:10:17,207 --> 02:10:19,596 who pretend to practice a profession but are practicing another. 2110 02:10:19,767 --> 02:10:24,318 They're a sort of symbolic police force, to put it frankly. 2111 02:10:24,847 --> 02:10:27,315 One factor which explains 2112 02:10:27,487 --> 02:10:30,559 why the social movement cannot get organised 2113 02:10:30,727 --> 02:10:32,638 is this anti-intellectualism. 2114 02:10:32,807 --> 02:10:35,196 Someone said - just let me finish - 2115 02:10:35,367 --> 02:10:39,155 that you might learn from my books... 2116 02:10:39,327 --> 02:10:41,283 Well, you'd understand precisely this, 2117 02:10:41,847 --> 02:10:44,122 you'd get tools for understanding this. 2118 02:10:44,287 --> 02:10:46,403 That's not a plug. I don't give a damn. 2119 02:10:47,007 --> 02:10:51,797 Be careful not to let your righteous indignation, 2120 02:10:52,327 --> 02:10:54,045 which is totally justified, 2121 02:10:54,607 --> 02:10:56,199 blind you and make you 2122 02:10:57,447 --> 02:10:59,324 deprive yourself 2123 02:10:59,647 --> 02:11:02,480 of tools for understanding. 2124 02:11:02,647 --> 02:11:04,524 Someone said, "Bourdieu could teach you something." 2125 02:11:04,687 --> 02:11:06,598 It's true, I know lots and lots of things. 2126 02:11:06,767 --> 02:11:10,521 I've been studying North Africa for many, many years - 2127 02:11:11,167 --> 02:11:12,964 most of you weren't even born. 2128 02:11:13,567 --> 02:11:16,957 So I can tell you that the book by Abdelmalek Sayad, 2129 02:11:17,127 --> 02:11:20,403 with whom I worked in the 1960s, and who died last year, 2130 02:11:20,567 --> 02:11:25,357 who was one of the greatest sociologist of emigration-immigration, 2131 02:11:26,767 --> 02:11:29,201 and who wasn't a scab, 2132 02:11:29,367 --> 02:11:32,598 and who worked in the field right to the end of his life, 2133 02:11:32,767 --> 02:11:34,644 who did fabulous interviews, 2134 02:11:34,807 --> 02:11:37,765 who knew how to listen to people... 2135 02:11:38,327 --> 02:11:40,522 Well, we published a book by him, 2136 02:11:40,687 --> 02:11:43,679 called 'La Double Absence' [The Suffering of the Immigrant], 2137 02:11:43,847 --> 02:11:45,838 in which he analyses 2138 02:11:46,167 --> 02:11:48,476 the condition of immigrants, in which he tried... 2139 02:11:48,647 --> 02:11:51,480 Before he died, he asked me to finish the book: 2140 02:11:51,847 --> 02:11:54,645 He wrote this book for people like you. 2141 02:11:55,207 --> 02:11:57,801 If you refuse that because he's an intellectual, he uses big words 2142 02:11:57,967 --> 02:12:01,482 like assimilation and integration, then you're just bloody stupid! 2143 02:12:01,647 --> 02:12:04,241 Really, that's out of order! You can't do that. 2144 02:12:04,407 --> 02:12:06,125 I'm sorry but I had to say that. 2145 02:12:09,007 --> 02:12:10,156 No applause. 2146 02:12:10,327 --> 02:12:11,362 No, no applause. 2147 02:12:11,527 --> 02:12:15,566 So that's Abdelmalek Sayad, 'La Double Absence'. 2148 02:12:15,727 --> 02:12:19,402 It costs 140 francs. A bit pricey but I couldn't get it lower. 2149 02:12:22,007 --> 02:12:25,602 He was a man with a sensitive understanding and 2150 02:12:25,767 --> 02:12:27,723 an analytic understanding of things. 2151 02:12:32,287 --> 02:12:36,041 And his work can maybe help people 2152 02:12:36,207 --> 02:12:41,759 to regain possession of their own historical identities, 2153 02:12:42,087 --> 02:12:44,442 of the suffering of their parents, of their grand-parents, 2154 02:12:45,807 --> 02:12:48,640 the suffering of language, of naturalisation, 2155 02:12:48,807 --> 02:12:52,959 of the naturalised citizen who can't escape his origins, 2156 02:12:53,127 --> 02:12:54,719 and who always carries a stigma. You have taught me nothing, 2157 02:12:55,247 --> 02:12:56,362 I'm sorry to say, I have read Sayad! 2158 02:12:56,527 --> 02:13:00,361 I could teach you a few things about yourselves. 2159 02:13:01,047 --> 02:13:04,005 Even if it sounds arrogant, I don't give a damn! 2160 02:13:04,367 --> 02:13:06,801 - Because, because... - "Because I believe it." 2161 02:13:06,967 --> 02:13:09,322 Because I believe it, because it's the truth. 2162 02:13:09,487 --> 02:13:13,924 I'm not preaching for your good, I don't give a damn. 2163 02:13:14,327 --> 02:13:18,639 But don't deprive yourselves of these intellectual resources 2164 02:13:19,887 --> 02:13:21,957 Being an intellectual isn't a disease. 2165 02:13:24,367 --> 02:13:27,564 I think we'll have to end there. 2166 02:13:29,087 --> 02:13:30,805 We'll end there. 2167 02:13:32,367 --> 02:13:34,039 This discussion 2168 02:13:35,887 --> 02:13:39,323 could go on until two in the morning. 2169 02:13:39,487 --> 02:13:41,557 But we can't go on that long. 2170 02:13:42,447 --> 02:13:46,440 So I thank you all. We'll keep the discussion going between us. 2171 02:13:47,007 --> 02:13:48,360 We'll see you again. 2172 02:13:49,327 --> 02:13:51,795 What? Yes, but... 2173 02:13:52,407 --> 02:13:54,318 Thanks again. 2174 02:13:59,167 --> 02:14:01,806 Thanks to everyone. 2175 02:14:01,967 --> 02:14:04,276 Sorry about the last two questions 2176 02:14:04,447 --> 02:14:06,403 but it's nearly eleven. 2177 02:14:06,567 --> 02:14:10,799 Thanks to everyone for coming, thanks to the organisers. 2178 02:14:10,967 --> 02:14:13,003 Thanks to Pierre Bourdieu for coming here. 2179 02:14:13,167 --> 02:14:15,635 It hasn't been an easy evening, 2180 02:14:15,807 --> 02:14:19,277 but it hasn't been a wasted evening either. 2181 02:14:22,567 --> 02:14:26,480 Mr Bourdieu, I'm sorry, but I couldn't say it all. 2182 02:14:26,647 --> 02:14:29,605 I wanted to make people understand certain facts. 2183 02:14:30,447 --> 02:14:33,996 That's why I made that quip about "Bourdieu is not Dieu!" 2184 02:14:35,087 --> 02:14:37,555 Oh, but I'm with it, frankly. 2185 02:14:37,727 --> 02:14:39,479 I bet it's been said before. 2186 02:14:40,527 --> 02:14:42,279 You did well to say that. 2187 02:14:42,447 --> 02:14:44,915 But there comes a point 2188 02:14:45,407 --> 02:14:48,763 when we have to make people like you listen to us, 2189 02:14:48,927 --> 02:14:50,963 so you can pass it on. 2190 02:14:51,127 --> 02:14:52,879 Or try, at least. 2191 02:14:53,047 --> 02:14:54,924 To enrich you, to keep you in touch. 2192 02:14:55,087 --> 02:14:56,805 All that we said will be useful to you. 2193 02:14:56,967 --> 02:14:58,559 Everything that was said was very good. 2194 02:14:58,727 --> 02:15:01,525 I'd have liked it to go on longer. 2195 02:15:01,687 --> 02:15:05,077 Where can we get in touch with you, or write to you? 2196 02:15:05,247 --> 02:15:06,999 52 Rue du Cardinal Lemoine... 2197 02:15:07,167 --> 02:15:10,125 We have to go now because they're closing. 2198 02:15:10,287 --> 02:15:13,006 Well, look, we'll contact you somehow. 2199 02:15:13,167 --> 02:15:16,284 I'll give you the address at the Collége de France. 2200 02:15:23,247 --> 02:15:26,842 We're trying to be sociologists, but gutter sociologists! 2201 02:15:27,607 --> 02:15:30,440 Remember that, gutter sociologists! 2202 02:15:30,607 --> 02:15:32,677 I'll use that one. 2203 02:15:32,847 --> 02:15:35,805 "As my friend Said, a gutter sociologist, said..." 2204 02:15:38,047 --> 02:15:40,242 If it comes up again one day... 2205 02:15:40,567 --> 02:15:41,556 ...from a rastaman. 2206 02:15:43,327 --> 02:15:44,760 Said was spot-on. 2207 02:15:45,687 --> 02:15:47,917 That's the reality of everyday life. 2208 02:15:48,247 --> 02:15:50,522 Yes, it was perfect. Very good. 2209 02:15:50,687 --> 02:15:51,961 Perfect, all of them. 2210 02:15:52,127 --> 02:15:55,563 And the other lad who spoke, I've forgotten his name... 2211 02:15:56,567 --> 02:15:59,320 - And there was... - Aimé. 2212 02:15:59,487 --> 02:16:02,001 - And the one who told Said... - Abdallah. 2213 02:16:02,967 --> 02:16:04,366 All of them, they were great. 2214 02:16:06,927 --> 02:16:10,124 I think that the idea of a social movement, 2215 02:16:12,687 --> 02:16:14,040 that's the only way... 2216 02:16:16,127 --> 02:16:20,439 As long as they keep burning cars, they'll send the cops. 2217 02:16:20,607 --> 02:16:24,759 We need a social movement to burn cars, but with a purpose... 2218 02:18:08,687 --> 02:18:11,406 Subtitles by Howard Bonsor and Loic Wacquant 2219 02:18:11,607 --> 02:18:13,677 Thanks to Pamela Denton, Keith Dixon and Sophie NoëI