1 00:00:03,015 --> 00:00:05,312 TV REPORT: Dennis Nilsen is charged with murdering 2 00:00:05,337 --> 00:00:09,788 Kenneth Ockenden, Martyn Duffy, William Sutherland, Malcolm Barlow, 3 00:00:09,813 --> 00:00:12,326 John Howlett and Stephen Sinclair. 4 00:00:12,351 --> 00:00:15,132 He's also accused of attempting to murder Douglas Stewart 5 00:00:15,157 --> 00:00:16,638 and Paul Knobbs. 6 00:00:18,292 --> 00:00:20,452 As each of the eight charges were read out, 7 00:00:20,493 --> 00:00:23,132 the defendant was asked, "How say you, Nilson? 8 00:00:23,173 --> 00:00:25,093 "Are you guilty or not guilty?" 9 00:00:25,132 --> 00:00:29,076 Eight times, in a firm voice, he replied, "Not guilty." 10 00:00:30,169 --> 00:00:32,227 But is Nilson guilty of murder, 11 00:00:32,252 --> 00:00:34,853 or is he guilty only of manslaughter? 12 00:00:35,142 --> 00:00:39,982 Synced & corrected by QueenMaddie www.addic7ed.com 13 00:00:48,307 --> 00:00:49,912 I don't understand. 14 00:00:50,264 --> 00:00:51,504 Well, it's quite simple. 15 00:00:51,529 --> 00:00:55,972 Having spoken to my solicitors, my barrister, um... 16 00:00:56,302 --> 00:00:59,047 learned people from the psychology profession, 17 00:00:59,072 --> 00:01:00,543 I'm not sure if I am guilty. 18 00:01:00,568 --> 00:01:02,733 But on-on what grounds? 19 00:01:02,773 --> 00:01:04,413 In all the months that we've been talking 20 00:01:04,453 --> 00:01:06,902 you've not mentioned a plea of insanity once. 21 00:01:06,927 --> 00:01:09,535 Not insanity, no. Diminished responsibility. 22 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:11,035 But am I mad? I don't know. 23 00:01:11,060 --> 00:01:15,173 Madness, as Quixote said, "Madness is seeing life as it is, 24 00:01:15,213 --> 00:01:16,933 "and not as it should be." 25 00:01:16,972 --> 00:01:19,840 You murdered those men, Des. 26 00:01:19,865 --> 00:01:21,777 And you knew what you were doing. 27 00:01:21,802 --> 00:01:24,482 Did I? I don't deny taking their lives. 28 00:01:24,507 --> 00:01:25,905 You know, I must wear the label of a killer, 29 00:01:25,929 --> 00:01:27,014 and maybe I should be hanged for it. 30 00:01:27,038 --> 00:01:28,740 But I didn't plan them. 31 00:01:29,303 --> 00:01:30,303 Never. 32 00:01:30,328 --> 00:01:32,858 I took them home with much purer intentions. 33 00:01:32,883 --> 00:01:34,723 Then I'd wake up and they'd be sat there, dead. 34 00:01:34,748 --> 00:01:37,013 Now, no-one feels the weight of that more than me. 35 00:01:37,067 --> 00:01:42,923 But the power of responsibility, at that time, was nil. 36 00:01:43,352 --> 00:01:46,733 I-I look in the mirror, and I see me, yeah? 37 00:01:46,899 --> 00:01:51,327 Just me. It's friendly, helpful, responsible me. Just that. 38 00:01:51,352 --> 00:01:53,333 If this was true, then why didn't you go to the police 39 00:01:53,357 --> 00:01:54,882 after the first time it happened? 40 00:01:54,907 --> 00:01:57,373 Don't you think I contemplated that, Brian? Eh? 41 00:01:57,412 --> 00:02:00,798 Don't you think I wanted to hand myself in, or end it all? 42 00:02:00,823 --> 00:02:02,827 Y'know? But then... 43 00:02:02,852 --> 00:02:06,373 survival and shame and the future 44 00:02:06,412 --> 00:02:08,972 makes you promise yourself it'll never happen again... 45 00:02:08,997 --> 00:02:10,610 till it does. 46 00:02:13,259 --> 00:02:15,501 But yeah, I mean... 47 00:02:16,146 --> 00:02:19,774 had it not been for the dog, I may well have surrendered myself. 48 00:02:20,399 --> 00:02:22,012 All I know is I don't know, 49 00:02:22,037 --> 00:02:24,956 and thus, a jury needs to decide. 50 00:02:25,181 --> 00:02:30,342 The press will be allowed to publish every word spoken in court. 51 00:02:30,367 --> 00:02:34,462 Every single detail exposed. 52 00:02:34,641 --> 00:02:36,333 Is that not what you're doing? 53 00:02:36,358 --> 00:02:38,684 Well, I'm not exploiting 54 00:02:38,709 --> 00:02:41,095 these young men's tragedies to sell newspapers. 55 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:43,321 No, you're just exploiting me. 56 00:02:45,868 --> 00:02:48,468 I hope you know me better than that. 57 00:02:49,239 --> 00:02:51,418 I just want to get to the truth. 58 00:02:52,093 --> 00:02:53,887 Don't you? 59 00:03:00,871 --> 00:03:04,325 _ 60 00:03:06,591 --> 00:03:07,911 [KNOCK AT DOOR] 61 00:03:09,077 --> 00:03:11,450 Peter, you know Mr Green, QC. 62 00:03:11,475 --> 00:03:12,595 Allan, please. 63 00:03:13,150 --> 00:03:15,111 I hear he's got the Krays' brief? 64 00:03:15,136 --> 00:03:16,762 And Ivan Lawrence as QC. 65 00:03:16,787 --> 00:03:19,547 It's a formidable defence team, to say the least. 66 00:03:19,676 --> 00:03:21,926 Please, take a seat. 67 00:03:23,387 --> 00:03:25,909 I take it their angle's diminished responsibility? 68 00:03:25,934 --> 00:03:29,012 - Didn't wash with Sutcliffe. - The jury won't buy it. 69 00:03:29,037 --> 00:03:31,534 Sutcliffe didn't watch TV with the bodies. 70 00:03:31,559 --> 00:03:33,213 Nilsen's not insane. 71 00:03:33,252 --> 00:03:34,870 They don't have to prove that. 72 00:03:34,895 --> 00:03:36,147 All they have to do 73 00:03:36,172 --> 00:03:38,493 is show that he was suffering some abnormality of mind 74 00:03:38,518 --> 00:03:41,089 and therefore not fully responsible for what he was doing. 75 00:03:41,114 --> 00:03:43,743 We, on the other hand, have to prove that these crimes 76 00:03:43,768 --> 00:03:46,247 were carefully planned and premeditated. 77 00:03:46,272 --> 00:03:48,075 Surely his confessions do that. 78 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:51,489 I'm afraid the confessions only take us so far. 79 00:03:52,716 --> 00:03:53,917 What do you mean? 80 00:03:53,942 --> 00:03:55,708 He gave you a lot of answers which prove what he did, 81 00:03:55,732 --> 00:03:58,567 but not what mind he was in when he did it. 82 00:03:58,592 --> 00:04:00,547 He gave you exactly what he wanted to. 83 00:04:00,572 --> 00:04:03,452 You hardly asked him any probing questions 84 00:04:03,493 --> 00:04:05,012 about what was on his mind. 85 00:04:05,037 --> 00:04:07,556 Hold on. We didn't want him to suddenly stop talking. 86 00:04:07,581 --> 00:04:09,926 We needed to identify 15 people. 87 00:04:09,951 --> 00:04:13,508 I understand that, but the effect was he gave you a lot of details 88 00:04:13,533 --> 00:04:15,942 that aren't going to help us convict him. 89 00:04:16,732 --> 00:04:19,292 I'm sorry, are you saying he planned this? 90 00:04:20,075 --> 00:04:23,010 We'll never know. But if all we have are the confessions, 91 00:04:23,035 --> 00:04:24,575 then that's not going to be enough. 92 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:26,920 We need more. Much more. 93 00:04:40,333 --> 00:04:42,473 We should have pushed for motive. 94 00:04:43,145 --> 00:04:45,213 Don't listen to Green. 95 00:04:45,457 --> 00:04:48,426 Everybody always thinks they're a better copper than a copper. 96 00:04:48,731 --> 00:04:49,893 If he'd have stopped talking 97 00:04:49,932 --> 00:04:52,801 there's no way we'd have found the people we did. 98 00:04:55,441 --> 00:04:58,228 Listen, they're just looking for someone to blame 99 00:04:58,253 --> 00:05:00,246 if this all goes pear-shaped. 100 00:05:00,732 --> 00:05:03,492 But we're gonna make damned sure that doesn't happen. 101 00:05:05,267 --> 00:05:06,770 Yeah. 102 00:05:08,893 --> 00:05:10,731 See you tomorrow. 103 00:05:25,453 --> 00:05:27,133 Thanks for meeting me. 104 00:05:27,397 --> 00:05:29,457 Please, take a seat. 105 00:05:30,989 --> 00:05:33,653 I almost didn't come. 106 00:05:34,285 --> 00:05:36,113 But you did. 107 00:05:36,559 --> 00:05:38,239 Cos you know this is wrong. 108 00:05:41,989 --> 00:05:45,231 I take it he's written to you over the past few months? 109 00:05:45,256 --> 00:05:46,707 Oh, he has. 110 00:05:47,637 --> 00:05:49,118 How much? 111 00:05:50,308 --> 00:05:52,698 52 exercise books' worth. 112 00:05:52,723 --> 00:05:54,693 We're gonna need to take a look at them. 113 00:05:54,718 --> 00:05:56,809 That could be useful to prove premeditation. 114 00:05:56,834 --> 00:05:58,325 - Mr Jay... - All that matters is that 115 00:05:58,350 --> 00:05:59,686 we find as much evidence as we can 116 00:05:59,710 --> 00:06:01,370 that Nilsen was in his right mind. 117 00:06:01,395 --> 00:06:02,955 What if he's insane? 118 00:06:02,996 --> 00:06:04,276 You think he's insane? 119 00:06:04,301 --> 00:06:06,153 Well, it's not for me to decide. 120 00:06:06,178 --> 00:06:09,356 He's not mad. He knew what he was doing was wrong. 121 00:06:09,381 --> 00:06:11,284 Well, I don't deny that. 122 00:06:11,309 --> 00:06:12,852 But at the same time, 123 00:06:12,877 --> 00:06:17,237 he was able to take the head of someone he'd known, 124 00:06:17,262 --> 00:06:20,848 the severed head, into a cooking pot on the stove, 125 00:06:21,046 --> 00:06:22,868 and let it simmer overnight. 126 00:06:23,082 --> 00:06:24,973 And then the next morning, 127 00:06:24,998 --> 00:06:28,112 he was able to pour himself a cup of coffee 128 00:06:28,137 --> 00:06:31,492 and butter a slice of toast, whilst turning up the heat 129 00:06:31,517 --> 00:06:33,437 to make sure that the head was boiling properly. 130 00:06:33,462 --> 00:06:36,543 Now that is completely mad. 131 00:06:37,535 --> 00:06:38,801 I mean... 132 00:06:39,868 --> 00:06:42,309 He's really done a number on you, hasn't he? 133 00:06:43,231 --> 00:06:45,598 You mistake me, Mr Jay. 134 00:06:46,313 --> 00:06:50,228 He's not my friend. I know who he is. 135 00:06:50,253 --> 00:06:51,333 Do you? 136 00:06:52,153 --> 00:06:54,428 Right, well, if there's nothing else... 137 00:06:54,707 --> 00:06:57,004 Listen, if he can convince a jury 138 00:06:57,161 --> 00:06:58,509 that he was out of his mind somehow, 139 00:06:58,533 --> 00:07:00,307 then he only gets manslaughter. 140 00:07:00,332 --> 00:07:02,972 He goes to a hospital and then in 15 years he's deemed cured, 141 00:07:02,997 --> 00:07:05,012 and he's back out on the streets. 142 00:07:05,583 --> 00:07:08,489 Is that justice for the victims and their families? 143 00:07:10,395 --> 00:07:12,174 If that happens... 144 00:07:13,551 --> 00:07:15,483 can you live with yourself? 145 00:07:16,477 --> 00:07:18,436 Because I know I can't. 146 00:07:29,035 --> 00:07:31,835 I'll drop the exercise books off at the station. 147 00:07:40,523 --> 00:07:42,412 But we have a murder weapon. 148 00:07:42,437 --> 00:07:44,624 A tie attached to a knotted rope. 149 00:07:45,038 --> 00:07:46,548 Seems pretty pre-emptive to me. 150 00:07:46,573 --> 00:07:48,296 Okay, good. What else? 151 00:07:48,321 --> 00:07:49,757 We've got Duffey's knives. 152 00:07:49,782 --> 00:07:51,611 Nilsen let them rust in his back garden 153 00:07:51,636 --> 00:07:53,381 so they could never be traced back to Martyn. 154 00:07:53,405 --> 00:07:56,733 That shows knowledge of wrongdoing, therefore criminally sane. 155 00:07:56,758 --> 00:07:58,558 That's a stretch. 156 00:07:59,312 --> 00:08:00,857 What about these books from Masters? 157 00:08:00,882 --> 00:08:02,682 Surely there's got to be something in here. 158 00:08:02,707 --> 00:08:04,333 The tragedy of the monochrome man? 159 00:08:04,372 --> 00:08:06,333 I mean, most of it's rambling nonsense. 160 00:08:06,358 --> 00:08:08,319 They help the defence if anything. 161 00:08:09,105 --> 00:08:10,596 What about Douglas Stewart? 162 00:08:10,621 --> 00:08:13,093 The press'll have a field day with what happened to Stewart. 163 00:08:13,809 --> 00:08:16,000 Police embarrassment is hardly relevant now. 164 00:08:16,025 --> 00:08:18,242 We have to use him. What else? 165 00:08:18,765 --> 00:08:20,617 What about the Soho Project? 166 00:08:20,953 --> 00:08:22,453 What about it? 167 00:08:22,492 --> 00:08:23,653 A woman called. 168 00:08:23,693 --> 00:08:27,609 Thinks someone in her therapy group could be a possible victim... 169 00:08:27,634 --> 00:08:30,430 but I thought we weren't looking for them any more. 170 00:08:32,052 --> 00:08:34,720 Okay, Steve and I will follow that up. 171 00:08:35,253 --> 00:08:37,052 Is that our lot? 172 00:08:37,213 --> 00:08:41,338 Paul Knobbs, in his statement, says... 173 00:08:41,363 --> 00:08:45,043 [VOICES FADE] 174 00:08:51,126 --> 00:08:52,486 Sorry to have called. 175 00:08:52,511 --> 00:08:55,212 It's just he's been having this recurring dream, 176 00:08:55,714 --> 00:08:57,933 but actually, I think he's been attacked. 177 00:08:57,958 --> 00:08:59,237 Okay. 178 00:08:59,354 --> 00:09:01,692 I hope I'm not wasting your time. 179 00:09:01,733 --> 00:09:04,019 Is it all right if we have a word with him? 180 00:09:04,846 --> 00:09:07,228 Go easy on him, okay? 181 00:09:07,948 --> 00:09:10,600 Of course. What's his name? 182 00:09:10,625 --> 00:09:12,105 Carl. 183 00:09:12,919 --> 00:09:14,526 All right. 184 00:09:17,472 --> 00:09:19,245 I'm in a dark room. 185 00:09:19,425 --> 00:09:21,971 I don't know where, and... 186 00:09:22,135 --> 00:09:25,190 there's music but it's calm. 187 00:09:25,812 --> 00:09:29,973 And then... this man appears. 188 00:09:30,284 --> 00:09:33,572 And I can't see his face, 189 00:09:33,776 --> 00:09:35,885 but he's very close to me. 190 00:09:37,253 --> 00:09:40,253 Um... But I'm not afraid, because... 191 00:09:40,918 --> 00:09:42,488 I'm warm. 192 00:09:43,089 --> 00:09:46,888 I'm wrapped up in some kind of sleeping bag. 193 00:09:48,647 --> 00:09:53,816 And then, all of a sudden, I feel something around my neck... 194 00:09:54,816 --> 00:09:58,300 digging into my throat, and-and choking me. 195 00:09:58,325 --> 00:10:01,973 And I can hear him saying, "Just stay still". 196 00:10:02,466 --> 00:10:04,812 And then everything goes dark. 197 00:10:05,247 --> 00:10:08,263 But then, after a while, I feel... 198 00:10:09,435 --> 00:10:10,748 something on my face, 199 00:10:10,779 --> 00:10:15,652 like... sort of like a dog licking me or something. 200 00:10:15,677 --> 00:10:17,613 Can you remember what breed? 201 00:10:18,692 --> 00:10:21,692 Um... No. 202 00:10:26,169 --> 00:10:27,930 Carl? 203 00:10:29,625 --> 00:10:31,505 Have you seen this man? 204 00:10:33,982 --> 00:10:38,052 - Yeah, yeah, on the news. - His name is Dennis Nilsen. 205 00:10:38,355 --> 00:10:41,982 He killed 15 young men and attempted to kill seven others. 206 00:10:43,021 --> 00:10:45,292 All of these men were strangled. 207 00:10:45,332 --> 00:10:48,013 Mostly with a tie or a headphone cord. 208 00:10:48,919 --> 00:10:51,503 But one, he tried to kill with a sleeping bag. 209 00:10:53,172 --> 00:10:54,452 No... 210 00:10:58,325 --> 00:11:01,092 Cos the man in my dream keeps telling me 211 00:11:01,117 --> 00:11:03,646 not to get caught up in the zip. 212 00:11:09,613 --> 00:11:12,654 He also said he attempted to drown him 213 00:11:13,125 --> 00:11:15,466 before resuscitating him. 214 00:11:20,185 --> 00:11:22,435 I've never told anyone about the water. 215 00:11:23,582 --> 00:11:25,381 Do you remember the water? 216 00:11:25,527 --> 00:11:27,904 Yeah. Um... 217 00:11:29,074 --> 00:11:30,510 It was cold water, 218 00:11:30,543 --> 00:11:34,135 and I was being held down. 219 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:37,214 Where? In a bath or a sink? 220 00:11:37,239 --> 00:11:39,759 I don't understand. Are you... 221 00:11:41,446 --> 00:11:43,636 Are you telling me that this actually happened? 222 00:11:43,661 --> 00:11:44,863 Yes. 223 00:11:46,206 --> 00:11:48,853 I think you're one of Nilsen's attempted victims. 224 00:11:49,542 --> 00:11:51,068 Because everything that you are telling us 225 00:11:51,092 --> 00:11:53,212 aligns to what he told us. 226 00:11:53,237 --> 00:11:55,261 Can you remember where you met him or, 227 00:11:55,286 --> 00:11:57,033 anything about where he lived? 228 00:11:57,058 --> 00:11:58,261 Well, no... 229 00:11:58,286 --> 00:12:00,065 You said he warned you about the sleeping bag. 230 00:12:00,089 --> 00:12:02,931 - What did he say exactly? - I don't know. 231 00:12:02,956 --> 00:12:04,029 When he warned you about the zip, 232 00:12:04,053 --> 00:12:06,064 it shows he was planning it way before he did it 233 00:12:06,089 --> 00:12:08,096 so I need you to be clear. Come on. 234 00:12:08,121 --> 00:12:10,307 - Just try to remember. - I don't wanna do this any more. 235 00:12:10,331 --> 00:12:12,463 Look, you have to. I know this is tough, 236 00:12:12,488 --> 00:12:13,854 - but we need all the details. - Detective. 237 00:12:13,878 --> 00:12:15,285 - Just think. - Detective, 238 00:12:15,310 --> 00:12:16,362 he's told you he's had enough. 239 00:12:16,386 --> 00:12:17,456 I'm aware of that, but 240 00:12:17,481 --> 00:12:19,597 - we are, I'm-I'm just trying... - Peter. 241 00:12:24,730 --> 00:12:25,955 We can't use him. 242 00:12:25,980 --> 00:12:27,884 He won't survive cross-examination. 243 00:12:27,909 --> 00:12:30,733 You saw him in there. They'll destroy him. 244 00:12:32,464 --> 00:12:33,908 I'll come back in a couple of days, 245 00:12:33,933 --> 00:12:35,533 see if I can get a statement from him 246 00:12:35,572 --> 00:12:37,134 and we can read that out in court, 247 00:12:37,159 --> 00:12:38,733 if we need to. 248 00:12:39,282 --> 00:12:41,495 Peter... we have enough. 249 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:43,933 And he led us to the bodies, for fuck's sake. 250 00:12:52,561 --> 00:12:55,464 For the first day of this, the trial of Dennis Nilsen, 251 00:12:55,496 --> 00:12:58,503 the unassuming civil servant who's charged with crimes 252 00:12:58,528 --> 00:13:01,222 that have shocked and sickened the nation. 253 00:13:01,405 --> 00:13:05,228 Nilsen is charged with six murders and two attempted murders. 254 00:13:05,542 --> 00:13:09,013 Details of a recently identified seventh victim, Graham Allen, 255 00:13:09,038 --> 00:13:11,073 a heroin addict and petty criminal, 256 00:13:11,098 --> 00:13:13,776 will not be featured on the indictment. 257 00:13:14,332 --> 00:13:16,939 - [CROWD SHOUTING] - Masters! 258 00:13:16,964 --> 00:13:19,519 What's it like being friends with a serial killer? 259 00:13:20,386 --> 00:13:23,275 What's it like rubbing shoulders with a murderer, Masters? 260 00:13:23,300 --> 00:13:26,065 [SHOUTING OVER EACH OTHER] 261 00:13:26,090 --> 00:13:28,995 What's it like being friends with a serial killer? 262 00:13:49,324 --> 00:13:50,620 Steve. 263 00:13:51,409 --> 00:13:52,847 You all right? 264 00:13:52,872 --> 00:13:53,872 Good. 265 00:13:54,663 --> 00:13:57,303 - Sleep okay? - No. I never do. 266 00:14:09,241 --> 00:14:11,405 Oh, here he is. Brian Masters, 267 00:14:11,430 --> 00:14:13,790 biographer to the murderer of the century. 268 00:14:13,815 --> 00:14:15,536 Did you see the press outside? 269 00:14:15,561 --> 00:14:17,663 Jesus, they'll have headlines for weeks. 270 00:14:17,688 --> 00:14:19,741 Revelling in the case, like carrion. 271 00:14:19,766 --> 00:14:21,999 One of the papers today had the headline 272 00:14:22,024 --> 00:14:24,311 "House Of Horrors - The Trial." 273 00:14:24,336 --> 00:14:25,710 The only "house of horrors" I've ever seen 274 00:14:25,734 --> 00:14:27,134 is Number Ten Downing Street. 275 00:14:27,867 --> 00:14:30,358 - They mention you an' all. - Yes, I saw. 276 00:14:30,383 --> 00:14:34,184 Yeah? How do you feel, being talked about in a national newspaper? 277 00:14:34,976 --> 00:14:36,859 You wanted to see me? 278 00:14:37,412 --> 00:14:39,853 Aye. They've brought me my suit, but no tie. 279 00:14:40,187 --> 00:14:42,249 I was wondering if I could borrow yours. 280 00:14:44,692 --> 00:14:45,929 Right. 281 00:14:45,954 --> 00:14:48,507 I know it's an ask, but an open-necked shirt 282 00:14:48,532 --> 00:14:51,124 isn't the kind of impression I want to give out 283 00:14:51,149 --> 00:14:52,921 on the first day of the trial. 284 00:14:56,363 --> 00:14:58,387 Right. I'll leave it with the guard. 285 00:14:58,412 --> 00:15:00,292 My saviour. 286 00:15:00,482 --> 00:15:02,212 I started out with 15 ties, 287 00:15:02,237 --> 00:15:04,333 but now the police have them all in evidence. 288 00:15:07,491 --> 00:15:09,841 You, the members of the jury, will be asked 289 00:15:09,866 --> 00:15:13,552 to ascertain this man's state of mind at the time of the killings 290 00:15:13,577 --> 00:15:15,988 and to decide, as a result, 291 00:15:16,013 --> 00:15:20,419 if he is guilty of the murder of six innocent young men, 292 00:15:20,444 --> 00:15:23,412 or merely of their manslaughter. 293 00:15:23,566 --> 00:15:27,879 That Mr Nilsen killed these men is not contested by the defence. 294 00:15:27,904 --> 00:15:29,466 They will argue, however, 295 00:15:29,491 --> 00:15:33,787 that he was out of his mind when he committed his crimes, 296 00:15:33,812 --> 00:15:36,724 and that he cannot be held truly accountable. 297 00:15:36,749 --> 00:15:39,526 But I intend to prove that Mr Nilsen not only 298 00:15:39,551 --> 00:15:41,206 knew what he was doing, 299 00:15:41,237 --> 00:15:45,757 but that these crimes were premeditated and carefully planned. 300 00:15:46,166 --> 00:15:50,009 He lured 15 innocent young men 301 00:15:50,034 --> 00:15:51,722 back to his home, 302 00:15:51,747 --> 00:15:54,667 before cruelly murdering them. 303 00:15:55,193 --> 00:15:57,674 Mr Nilsen is no madman. 304 00:15:57,699 --> 00:16:00,339 He is intelligent and rational, 305 00:16:00,371 --> 00:16:03,450 possessing the skills to conceal his crimes, 306 00:16:03,748 --> 00:16:06,222 and manipulate those around him. 307 00:16:06,441 --> 00:16:12,082 He is, in short, an experienced and calculating killer. 308 00:16:13,206 --> 00:16:17,019 I have spent a total of 14 hours with Dennis Nilsen, 309 00:16:17,044 --> 00:16:20,204 on 16 separate occasions since his arrest. 310 00:16:20,229 --> 00:16:22,635 You are a forensic psychiatrist, Dr Hardy? 311 00:16:22,660 --> 00:16:23,836 - Correct. - Could you share 312 00:16:23,861 --> 00:16:25,758 with the court the clinical evaluation 313 00:16:25,783 --> 00:16:28,196 you made of the defendant during these many meetings? 314 00:16:28,221 --> 00:16:31,900 Did you find, for example, any evidence of mental abnormality? 315 00:16:31,925 --> 00:16:34,017 Quite the reverse. I formed the impression very quickly 316 00:16:34,041 --> 00:16:35,664 that he was a highly intelligent man. 317 00:16:35,689 --> 00:16:39,672 In my view, Nilsen possesses an extremely rational mind. 318 00:16:39,697 --> 00:16:42,211 He is capable of feeling very deeply 319 00:16:42,236 --> 00:16:46,108 and concealing these feelings in order to preserve appearances. 320 00:16:46,258 --> 00:16:49,013 Thank you. No further questions, my Lord. 321 00:16:51,394 --> 00:16:55,362 Dennis Nilsen killed perhaps 15 young men, 322 00:16:55,387 --> 00:16:57,278 for no apparent reason. 323 00:16:57,303 --> 00:17:00,098 He kept their bodies, bathed and dressed them, 324 00:17:00,123 --> 00:17:02,004 watched television programmes with them, 325 00:17:02,029 --> 00:17:05,110 conversed with them about those programmes. 326 00:17:05,135 --> 00:17:09,254 You say you find no evidence of mental disturbance. 327 00:17:09,707 --> 00:17:13,481 Of course strangling people is not normal behaviour. 328 00:17:13,506 --> 00:17:16,489 While Nilsen was on remand, 329 00:17:16,514 --> 00:17:20,973 he made a series of protests and complaints 330 00:17:20,998 --> 00:17:24,867 about his treatment in Her Majesty's Prison Herne Hill. 331 00:17:24,892 --> 00:17:26,871 Would you not agree that this shows 332 00:17:26,896 --> 00:17:29,551 markedly paranoid tendencies? 333 00:17:29,751 --> 00:17:32,145 Perhaps. In some cases. 334 00:17:32,170 --> 00:17:35,748 And in this case, in fact, his behaviour became so extreme, 335 00:17:35,773 --> 00:17:41,524 so erratic, that he was recently put down as a suicide risk. 336 00:17:41,900 --> 00:17:43,499 Could you tell us, Dr Hardy, 337 00:17:43,524 --> 00:17:46,422 who the psychiatrist was who recommended this step? 338 00:17:48,324 --> 00:17:49,428 I did. 339 00:17:49,453 --> 00:17:51,475 So, would you not agree 340 00:17:51,500 --> 00:17:54,313 that someone at risk of suicide is, by definition, 341 00:17:54,338 --> 00:17:56,852 suffering a mental disorder? 342 00:17:57,863 --> 00:18:02,266 I suppose, in strict terms, that is true. 343 00:18:02,291 --> 00:18:04,730 Thank you. No further questions, my Lord. 344 00:18:26,483 --> 00:18:27,884 Miss Mead? 345 00:18:29,103 --> 00:18:31,343 They're using what happened to Graham, 346 00:18:31,647 --> 00:18:33,625 making it all public, 347 00:18:33,794 --> 00:18:35,828 but he doesn't get justice? 348 00:18:36,852 --> 00:18:38,391 I know. 349 00:18:38,919 --> 00:18:42,439 Look, there are certain details about his case that can... 350 00:18:42,464 --> 00:18:43,852 You didn't give a shit about him 351 00:18:43,877 --> 00:18:46,000 when you thought he was just a junkie who OD'd 352 00:18:46,025 --> 00:18:48,144 in a squat or a bedsit somewhere. 353 00:18:48,169 --> 00:18:51,969 But now, you're gonna bring up every little detail. 354 00:18:54,896 --> 00:18:56,416 I'm sorry. 355 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:00,801 No, you're not. 356 00:19:01,962 --> 00:19:05,203 Do you have any fucking idea what you've put me through? 357 00:19:06,584 --> 00:19:09,039 And he won't even get justice? 358 00:19:11,883 --> 00:19:14,141 All you lot care about 359 00:19:14,490 --> 00:19:17,930 is you're the people that caught Dennis Nilsen. 360 00:19:21,423 --> 00:19:24,236 Peter. We're back in. 361 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:38,502 So, Mr Stewart, 362 00:19:38,527 --> 00:19:40,527 after meeting him in the Golden Lion, 363 00:19:40,552 --> 00:19:43,525 Mr Nilsen suggested that you both go back to his residence 364 00:19:43,550 --> 00:19:45,924 - to continue drinking? - That's right. 365 00:19:45,949 --> 00:19:49,642 195 Melrose Avenue. I remember it very clearly. 366 00:19:49,667 --> 00:19:52,767 - And what happened next? - We had a couple more pints. 367 00:19:52,792 --> 00:19:56,032 He offered me vodka but I said, "It's not my drink". 368 00:19:56,736 --> 00:19:59,924 Then he asked me to go to bed with him. 369 00:19:59,949 --> 00:20:02,017 I said that wasn't my thing either. 370 00:20:02,042 --> 00:20:04,580 So I fell asleep on the sofa. 371 00:20:04,675 --> 00:20:08,174 I woke up, must have been a few hours later, 372 00:20:08,199 --> 00:20:11,878 and my ankles were tied together with a tie. 373 00:20:12,201 --> 00:20:15,447 Nilsen was kneeling on my chest, trying to strangle me. 374 00:20:15,472 --> 00:20:16,791 But I fought him off. 375 00:20:16,816 --> 00:20:18,572 I wasn't going down without a fight. 376 00:20:18,597 --> 00:20:20,314 How did he respond to that? 377 00:20:20,806 --> 00:20:23,807 He started shouting, "Take my money, take my money!" 378 00:20:23,832 --> 00:20:25,479 Really loud, like. 379 00:20:31,587 --> 00:20:34,369 But you weren't stealing from him? 380 00:20:34,394 --> 00:20:37,338 Seemed like he was trying to make the neighbours think 381 00:20:37,363 --> 00:20:39,080 he was being attacked himself. 382 00:20:39,105 --> 00:20:41,787 He was trying to create an alibi. 383 00:20:41,812 --> 00:20:44,658 Hardly the act of a man out of his mind. 384 00:20:44,978 --> 00:20:47,549 Thank you, Mr Stewart. No further questions, my Lord. 385 00:20:48,026 --> 00:20:51,197 In your police statement, Mr Stewart, 386 00:20:51,222 --> 00:20:55,174 you said you stayed for another drink with Nilsen. 387 00:20:55,567 --> 00:20:59,168 Another drink, after he allegedly tried to kill you? 388 00:20:59,536 --> 00:21:02,468 Well, I thought that was the best way to calm him down. 389 00:21:02,493 --> 00:21:03,612 I see. 390 00:21:03,652 --> 00:21:04,736 You mentioned earlier 391 00:21:04,761 --> 00:21:08,801 that you remembered seeing the address as 195 Melrose Avenue. 392 00:21:08,901 --> 00:21:11,205 How did you remember the address so clearly? 393 00:21:11,386 --> 00:21:13,386 I saw the number on the door. 394 00:21:13,613 --> 00:21:16,971 You also told us that when you met him in the pub 395 00:21:16,996 --> 00:21:20,047 the defendant introduced himself to you as Dennis. 396 00:21:20,072 --> 00:21:22,018 - Yeah. - And that when you got to his house 397 00:21:22,043 --> 00:21:25,494 to continue your drinking session together, he offered you vodka. 398 00:21:25,827 --> 00:21:27,107 That's right. 399 00:21:27,132 --> 00:21:30,424 Unfortunately, none of these things are true, are they? 400 00:21:30,449 --> 00:21:32,729 The defendant's first name may be Dennis 401 00:21:32,754 --> 00:21:35,554 but he always calls himself Des. 402 00:21:35,579 --> 00:21:38,861 He always drinks rum, not vodka, 403 00:21:38,886 --> 00:21:42,213 and there is no number plate on the house at Melrose Avenue. 404 00:21:42,398 --> 00:21:43,957 There never has been. 405 00:21:43,982 --> 00:21:46,346 I dunno, I thought there was. 406 00:21:46,371 --> 00:21:49,650 Mm, but you seemed so sure of the details before. 407 00:21:49,675 --> 00:21:51,036 And why might that be? 408 00:21:51,061 --> 00:21:55,460 Why might someone go to the trouble of furnishing their testimony 409 00:21:55,485 --> 00:21:58,604 with a great deal of specific detail 410 00:21:58,629 --> 00:22:01,405 that seems to be pulled from thin air? 411 00:22:01,430 --> 00:22:04,295 I put it to you, Mr Stewart, that your testimony to this court 412 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:06,281 is nothing more than a pack of lies, 413 00:22:06,306 --> 00:22:09,678 dreamt up to satisfy a tabloid newspaper. 414 00:22:11,029 --> 00:22:13,590 Well, Mr Stewart? 415 00:22:14,232 --> 00:22:16,631 Have you sold your story? 416 00:22:17,404 --> 00:22:21,228 Er... Y... Yes. 417 00:22:21,829 --> 00:22:24,533 No further questions, my Lord. 418 00:22:27,006 --> 00:22:28,327 How dare he! 419 00:22:28,352 --> 00:22:30,415 Standing up there in that ridiculous suit, 420 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:32,040 spouting those lies. 421 00:22:32,065 --> 00:22:34,704 So you're saying that Douglas Stewart is lying? 422 00:22:34,729 --> 00:22:36,848 That you didn't try and kill him? 423 00:22:36,873 --> 00:22:39,438 Yes, I did. But not as he described it. 424 00:22:39,463 --> 00:22:41,977 This is about absolute truth, Brian. 425 00:22:42,313 --> 00:22:44,845 It has to be, otherwise we don't get any answers. 426 00:22:45,464 --> 00:22:47,523 You cannot possibly believe 427 00:22:47,548 --> 00:22:50,140 that what you put him through out there was justified. 428 00:22:50,165 --> 00:22:52,413 What are you getting so agitated about? 429 00:22:52,438 --> 00:22:55,360 I'm giving you a wonderful final act for your book. 430 00:22:55,923 --> 00:22:57,938 Like you said about the book, Brian, 431 00:22:57,963 --> 00:23:00,374 it's not up to us to make subjective decisions. 432 00:23:00,399 --> 00:23:02,345 We have to remain objective in all of this. 433 00:23:02,370 --> 00:23:05,087 Thus, it is up to the jury to decide 434 00:23:05,112 --> 00:23:06,759 whether I'm just bad... 435 00:23:06,784 --> 00:23:08,751 or outrageously bad. 436 00:23:17,554 --> 00:23:19,675 - See you back in chambers. - Thank you. 437 00:23:19,769 --> 00:23:21,424 Did you know he'd sold his story to the press? 438 00:23:21,448 --> 00:23:22,462 Course I didn't! 439 00:23:22,487 --> 00:23:25,247 We're lucky the judge didn't strike his testimony from the record. 440 00:23:25,615 --> 00:23:27,790 It can't have harmed us that much, right? 441 00:23:28,141 --> 00:23:30,516 Stewart's credibility is gone, his testimony is now useless. 442 00:23:30,541 --> 00:23:31,741 We're in a lot of trouble. 443 00:23:31,766 --> 00:23:32,923 Surely we still have enough? 444 00:23:32,948 --> 00:23:35,589 I mean, we have the tie with the knotted rope, and Duffey's knives. 445 00:23:35,614 --> 00:23:37,438 All those show premeditation to murder. 446 00:23:37,463 --> 00:23:39,158 Peter, physical evidence is all very good and well, 447 00:23:39,182 --> 00:23:40,438 but it's also circumstantial. 448 00:23:40,463 --> 00:23:41,993 We had an eye witness, a survivor, 449 00:23:42,018 --> 00:23:44,602 and without that, we're significantly weaker. 450 00:23:45,297 --> 00:23:46,626 Sorry. 451 00:24:01,833 --> 00:24:03,391 Hello, Carl. 452 00:24:03,777 --> 00:24:05,138 Can I come in? 453 00:24:15,386 --> 00:24:17,106 How have you been? 454 00:24:18,436 --> 00:24:20,436 Things keep coming back to me. 455 00:24:22,231 --> 00:24:24,030 What kind of things? 456 00:24:27,540 --> 00:24:29,540 He said he liked my shoes. 457 00:24:34,396 --> 00:24:35,676 Thank you. 458 00:24:39,590 --> 00:24:43,791 The doctor said it was all nightmares, caused... 459 00:24:45,790 --> 00:24:49,830 I'd had a bit of a hard time with an ex of mine. 460 00:24:51,477 --> 00:24:54,398 They even put me on tablets to block everything out. 461 00:25:01,388 --> 00:25:03,708 Listen, Carl, um... 462 00:25:06,055 --> 00:25:08,255 The trial isn't going how we'd hoped. 463 00:25:08,536 --> 00:25:11,005 We think your testimony could be crucial. 464 00:25:11,030 --> 00:25:12,942 But I've already given my statement. 465 00:25:13,407 --> 00:25:15,067 The man said that would be enough. 466 00:25:15,092 --> 00:25:18,453 I know, but we need you to give it in court. 467 00:25:19,413 --> 00:25:20,739 What, with him there? 468 00:25:20,764 --> 00:25:23,255 - You wouldn't have to be close to him. - No, I can't. 469 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:26,942 - Carl... - He killed me, Mr Jay. 470 00:25:27,144 --> 00:25:30,864 And then he... brought me back to life. 471 00:25:31,435 --> 00:25:34,317 I can't imagine what you've been through, Carl. 472 00:25:34,892 --> 00:25:36,677 I really can't. 473 00:25:37,771 --> 00:25:39,442 But please believe me, 474 00:25:39,467 --> 00:25:42,388 if he gets a lesser sentence, you'll find no peace. 475 00:25:42,763 --> 00:25:45,162 I'm sorry. I can't... 476 00:25:47,018 --> 00:25:49,939 be in the same room as him. 477 00:25:51,395 --> 00:25:53,224 I can't go back there. 478 00:25:55,493 --> 00:25:57,810 Then they'll subpoena you anyway. 479 00:25:57,835 --> 00:26:00,115 You'll be forced to testify. 480 00:26:03,275 --> 00:26:05,474 So I don't have a choice? 481 00:26:15,219 --> 00:26:16,738 [DOOR OPENS] 482 00:26:23,340 --> 00:26:25,261 [DOOR SLAMS SHUT] 483 00:26:25,930 --> 00:26:28,606 I swear by Almighty God that the evidence I shall give 484 00:26:28,631 --> 00:26:32,130 shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing by the truth. 485 00:26:33,334 --> 00:26:35,263 Could you recount, Mr Stottor, 486 00:26:35,288 --> 00:26:37,989 the events of that night in April 1982, 487 00:26:38,014 --> 00:26:39,453 when you met the defendant? 488 00:26:45,220 --> 00:26:49,188 Where, for example, did you meet Mr Nilsen? 489 00:26:49,325 --> 00:26:51,372 In The Black Cap, Camden. 490 00:26:51,606 --> 00:26:53,192 I was depressed. 491 00:26:53,497 --> 00:26:56,239 I'd just broken up with someone. 492 00:26:56,264 --> 00:26:59,264 Speak up, please, Mr Stottor. 493 00:27:03,131 --> 00:27:04,610 He was nice to me. 494 00:27:04,989 --> 00:27:07,435 In what sense was he nice? 495 00:27:07,654 --> 00:27:10,661 He bought me drinks. 496 00:27:10,686 --> 00:27:13,886 Er... He asked me about my family. 497 00:27:14,253 --> 00:27:16,653 He asked if you had family? 498 00:27:16,773 --> 00:27:21,493 Yes, and then he invited me back to his flat for a drink. 499 00:27:22,222 --> 00:27:25,802 Um... We just drank a lot and then he said 500 00:27:25,827 --> 00:27:28,278 I could go to sleep on his bed. 501 00:27:28,303 --> 00:27:31,083 And then he warned me not to get caught 502 00:27:31,108 --> 00:27:33,388 in the zip of the sleeping bag. 503 00:27:33,569 --> 00:27:34,849 Why do you think that was? 504 00:27:34,874 --> 00:27:37,034 Was it perhaps because he was planning an alibi 505 00:27:37,059 --> 00:27:39,286 - in case you managed to escape? - Objection, my Lord. 506 00:27:39,311 --> 00:27:41,552 - Leading. - Sustained. 507 00:27:41,641 --> 00:27:43,841 Tell us what happened next. 508 00:27:50,644 --> 00:27:52,708 I woke up and I couldn't breathe. 509 00:27:53,129 --> 00:27:56,669 He was behind me and... 510 00:27:56,694 --> 00:27:59,294 I could feel something digging into my neck. 511 00:28:00,771 --> 00:28:03,606 The pressure got worse... 512 00:28:03,959 --> 00:28:06,169 and the pain was unbearable. 513 00:28:06,194 --> 00:28:07,908 I couldn't see, 514 00:28:07,933 --> 00:28:10,833 or speak, or swallow. 515 00:28:10,858 --> 00:28:13,552 And I could hear him saying, "Keep still". 516 00:28:14,627 --> 00:28:17,880 The next thing I knew, I was in water. 517 00:28:18,928 --> 00:28:22,614 In a bath. Being pushed down. Again and again. 518 00:28:22,685 --> 00:28:26,684 And I didn't know where I was or what was happening. 519 00:28:26,709 --> 00:28:30,325 And I swallowed water. 520 00:28:30,752 --> 00:28:34,591 I couldn't resist any more and I realised... 521 00:28:35,466 --> 00:28:37,778 that I was dying. 522 00:28:39,234 --> 00:28:40,888 Thank you, Mr Stottor. 523 00:28:40,913 --> 00:28:42,731 No further questions, my Lord. 524 00:28:43,011 --> 00:28:46,724 You have an alter-ego, Mr Stottor, do you not? 525 00:28:47,263 --> 00:28:49,422 Khara Le Fox. 526 00:28:49,591 --> 00:28:51,302 A drag act. 527 00:28:51,327 --> 00:28:53,411 You're a female impersonator. 528 00:28:53,436 --> 00:28:55,028 I used to be, yes. 529 00:28:55,053 --> 00:28:57,817 You've already been asked, Mr Stottor, 530 00:28:57,842 --> 00:28:59,653 if you could speak up 531 00:28:59,678 --> 00:29:02,028 for the benefit of the court? 532 00:29:02,372 --> 00:29:03,512 [LOUDER] Yes. 533 00:29:04,498 --> 00:29:05,973 But... 534 00:29:06,546 --> 00:29:11,065 since the attack, I'm not able to sing any more. 535 00:29:11,090 --> 00:29:14,251 And you had several relationships with men, 536 00:29:14,276 --> 00:29:17,508 including one which became abusive. 537 00:29:17,533 --> 00:29:21,339 Your night with Nilsen was, therefore, 538 00:29:21,364 --> 00:29:24,395 not your first violent homosexual encounter... 539 00:29:24,420 --> 00:29:27,005 My Lord, I must object to this line of questioning. 540 00:29:27,030 --> 00:29:29,309 A history of deviant encounters 541 00:29:29,334 --> 00:29:32,669 raises the possibility of a sex game gone wrong, my Lord. 542 00:29:32,694 --> 00:29:35,770 Sustained. Move on, Mr Lawrence. 543 00:29:36,228 --> 00:29:38,817 Now, could you tell us, Mr Stottor, 544 00:29:38,842 --> 00:29:42,332 where you woke up after you had been in the bath? 545 00:29:43,294 --> 00:29:44,533 On the bed. 546 00:29:44,572 --> 00:29:48,332 On the bed. And was the room warm or cold? 547 00:29:48,809 --> 00:29:49,942 Warm. 548 00:29:49,967 --> 00:29:52,145 Nilsen had heated the room, had he not? 549 00:29:52,170 --> 00:29:55,528 He had put on all the bars on the electric fire. 550 00:29:56,738 --> 00:29:59,658 Yes, I suppose so. 551 00:29:59,754 --> 00:30:03,215 And how long after you woke up did you leave the flat? 552 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:08,137 Well, I kept falling asleep, so maybe one or two days. 553 00:30:08,162 --> 00:30:09,856 One or two days. 554 00:30:09,881 --> 00:30:13,231 Did Nilsen keep you under duress? 555 00:30:13,256 --> 00:30:18,450 No, but I was very confused... 556 00:30:18,575 --> 00:30:20,778 and also in a lot of pain. 557 00:30:20,803 --> 00:30:22,200 Did he, in fact, 558 00:30:22,225 --> 00:30:26,225 walk you to the tube station when you wanted to go? 559 00:30:27,062 --> 00:30:28,181 Yes. 560 00:30:28,206 --> 00:30:32,123 This supposedly cold and calculating killer, 561 00:30:32,148 --> 00:30:34,490 with every opportunity to finish the job, 562 00:30:34,515 --> 00:30:38,412 instead let you sleep in a warm bed for days, 563 00:30:38,437 --> 00:30:40,865 before seeing you home safely. 564 00:30:40,890 --> 00:30:44,130 In fact, aside from the incident itself, 565 00:30:44,155 --> 00:30:48,810 did he not show you more care and kindness that evening 566 00:30:48,835 --> 00:30:52,740 than anyone else in your life had done for a very long time? 567 00:30:55,220 --> 00:30:56,659 Yes. 568 00:30:59,309 --> 00:31:01,269 That's what I can't understand. 569 00:31:02,403 --> 00:31:04,762 Is he my murderer or my saviour? 570 00:31:05,993 --> 00:31:10,201 How peculiar that is. 571 00:31:11,407 --> 00:31:13,654 No further questions, my Lord. 572 00:31:15,274 --> 00:31:17,514 You may step down, Mr Stottor. 573 00:31:23,053 --> 00:31:24,533 You did really well in there. 574 00:31:24,795 --> 00:31:25,926 Listen, Carl... 575 00:31:25,951 --> 00:31:27,428 I want to go home now. 576 00:31:27,476 --> 00:31:30,451 [CROWD CALLS OUT] 577 00:31:30,476 --> 00:31:33,310 [MAN SHOUTS] He should have killed you, you queer! 578 00:31:47,651 --> 00:31:50,381 [VOICES FADE] 579 00:31:56,213 --> 00:31:57,685 Mr Jay... 580 00:32:05,679 --> 00:32:08,170 I feel I owe you an apology. 581 00:32:09,916 --> 00:32:11,607 You were right. 582 00:32:12,479 --> 00:32:13,928 He's not insane. 583 00:32:14,647 --> 00:32:17,771 He knew exactly what he was doing. 584 00:32:18,677 --> 00:32:23,236 As much then as he does now. 585 00:32:42,846 --> 00:32:46,100 [PHOTOGRAPHERS SHOUT] 586 00:33:16,849 --> 00:33:18,329 Detective, are you confident? 587 00:33:18,354 --> 00:33:20,753 Do you think you'll get justice for the victims, Detective? 588 00:33:21,216 --> 00:33:23,576 In the following days you interviewed him at length. 589 00:33:23,601 --> 00:33:25,012 Is that correct? 590 00:33:25,045 --> 00:33:28,146 Yes, we interviewed him for a total of 31 hours. 591 00:33:28,171 --> 00:33:29,612 And in those 31 hours, 592 00:33:29,637 --> 00:33:33,118 did Mr Nilsen ever mention visions or voices in his head 593 00:33:33,143 --> 00:33:35,576 - telling him to commit his crimes? - No. 594 00:33:35,601 --> 00:33:36,857 Did he ever show any signs at all 595 00:33:36,881 --> 00:33:39,006 of being out of his mind, so to speak, 596 00:33:39,031 --> 00:33:41,014 or mentally unwell in any way? 597 00:33:41,053 --> 00:33:42,805 No. Quite the opposite, in fact. 598 00:33:42,830 --> 00:33:45,973 He seemed... calm. 599 00:33:46,167 --> 00:33:48,675 Collected. In control. 600 00:33:48,700 --> 00:33:50,940 - Hardly a madman. - No. 601 00:33:51,165 --> 00:33:52,885 Detective Chief Inspector Jay, 602 00:33:52,910 --> 00:33:54,102 could you please tell the court, 603 00:33:54,126 --> 00:33:56,388 for how long have you been a police officer? 604 00:33:56,558 --> 00:33:58,242 Almost 23 years. 605 00:33:58,267 --> 00:34:00,379 And based on those years of experience, 606 00:34:00,404 --> 00:34:03,916 what is your professional opinion of Dennis Nilsen? 607 00:34:06,447 --> 00:34:09,264 I've seen criminals in all shapes and sizes. 608 00:34:10,486 --> 00:34:11,601 When they're on remand, 609 00:34:11,626 --> 00:34:14,435 they ask to be visited by all sorts of people, 610 00:34:14,730 --> 00:34:17,659 priests, rabbis, imams. 611 00:34:18,057 --> 00:34:21,061 I even had a fella who asked for a shaman. 612 00:34:21,873 --> 00:34:25,884 Because most of them are just wanting forgiveness. 613 00:34:27,797 --> 00:34:29,200 Mr Nilsen's only visitor 614 00:34:29,225 --> 00:34:31,580 in the eight months whilst he was on remand 615 00:34:31,917 --> 00:34:33,533 was a biographer. 616 00:34:35,227 --> 00:34:38,334 In my opinion, he's a remorseless coward 617 00:34:38,359 --> 00:34:41,580 who killed innocent and vulnerable men as they slept. 618 00:34:43,147 --> 00:34:44,690 Thank you, Detective Chief Inspector. 619 00:34:44,715 --> 00:34:46,494 No further questions, my Lord. 620 00:34:47,064 --> 00:34:48,930 Detective Chief Inspector, 621 00:34:48,955 --> 00:34:53,419 you say you interviewed Nilsen for 31 hours, yes? 622 00:34:53,444 --> 00:34:54,444 That's right. 623 00:34:54,469 --> 00:34:58,270 In all that time of him talking almost incessantly, 624 00:34:58,295 --> 00:35:03,014 did he ever mention planning the murders at all? 625 00:35:04,318 --> 00:35:05,547 No. 626 00:35:05,990 --> 00:35:08,007 No further questions, my Lord. 627 00:35:08,272 --> 00:35:09,875 You may step down, Officer. 628 00:35:10,074 --> 00:35:11,260 Thank you. 629 00:35:12,738 --> 00:35:15,223 We have an old Latin phrase in the law, 630 00:35:15,248 --> 00:35:17,091 "Res ipsa loquitur", 631 00:35:17,116 --> 00:35:19,200 "The act speaks for itself." 632 00:35:19,467 --> 00:35:21,842 What sort of man kills people, 633 00:35:21,867 --> 00:35:24,644 lives with their bodies rotting under the floorboards, 634 00:35:24,669 --> 00:35:28,536 and flushes pieces of them down the lavatory? 635 00:35:28,561 --> 00:35:33,013 Do these seem to you the actions of a man in his right mind? 636 00:35:33,277 --> 00:35:36,082 If you think, as we invite you to think, 637 00:35:36,107 --> 00:35:38,227 and as the evidence surely shows, 638 00:35:38,252 --> 00:35:42,204 that these crimes were not planned or premeditated, 639 00:35:42,229 --> 00:35:45,898 but were due to Nilsen's seriously abnormal personality 640 00:35:45,923 --> 00:35:47,198 and way of thinking, 641 00:35:47,223 --> 00:35:50,348 then you will find him not guilty of murder, 642 00:35:50,373 --> 00:35:54,889 but guilty of manslaughter by way of diminished responsibility. 643 00:35:55,030 --> 00:35:58,311 That is the verdict which we invite you to return. 644 00:36:01,165 --> 00:36:02,926 What's taking them so long? 645 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,340 Same again? Wee ones? 646 00:36:12,594 --> 00:36:14,442 [DOOR OPENS] 647 00:36:30,132 --> 00:36:32,013 Madam Foreman of the jury. 648 00:36:33,632 --> 00:36:36,592 Have you reached verdicts on which you are all agreed? 649 00:36:37,272 --> 00:36:38,908 No, we have not. 650 00:36:38,933 --> 00:36:40,571 [THEY SIGH] 651 00:36:40,596 --> 00:36:44,605 Might you reach a verdict if the court sits until early evening? 652 00:36:44,855 --> 00:36:46,977 I don't believe so, your Honour. 653 00:36:47,002 --> 00:36:49,477 Very well. You will retire overnight. 654 00:36:49,502 --> 00:36:51,502 The court will reconvene in the morning 655 00:36:51,527 --> 00:36:54,286 where I will accept a majority verdict. 656 00:37:01,210 --> 00:37:02,731 TV REPORT: More time's now being spent 657 00:37:02,756 --> 00:37:05,352 on what's possibly wrong with Dennis Nilsen 658 00:37:05,377 --> 00:37:07,258 than what he's actually done. 659 00:37:07,418 --> 00:37:11,758 A man who has described himself as the "murderer of the century". 660 00:37:11,783 --> 00:37:15,813 A defence psychiatrist said Nilsen acted as if he were the judge, 661 00:37:15,838 --> 00:37:18,478 judging this case of an infamous crime. 662 00:37:18,503 --> 00:37:19,556 He shows off. 663 00:37:19,581 --> 00:37:22,965 He really believes he is the most important person of the century. 664 00:37:22,990 --> 00:37:26,808 The defence expert found another way of describing Nilsen's mind. 665 00:37:26,833 --> 00:37:29,059 "His personality was like his house. 666 00:37:29,084 --> 00:37:31,460 "It looked perfectly all right from the outside, 667 00:37:31,485 --> 00:37:34,301 "but perhaps there was something of a funny smell about it, 668 00:37:34,326 --> 00:37:36,112 "and when you looked under the floorboards, 669 00:37:36,137 --> 00:37:38,018 "you would find horrors." 670 00:37:38,524 --> 00:37:40,267 The jury is returning. 671 00:38:08,439 --> 00:38:10,636 Would the foreman of the jury please stand? 672 00:38:13,284 --> 00:38:14,684 Madam Foreman, 673 00:38:14,709 --> 00:38:17,340 do you have a majority on your verdicts? 674 00:38:17,832 --> 00:38:19,123 We do. 675 00:38:19,567 --> 00:38:22,625 On the charge of the murder of Stephen Sinclair, 676 00:38:22,650 --> 00:38:24,650 how do you find the defendant? 677 00:38:25,965 --> 00:38:27,284 Guilty. 678 00:38:28,335 --> 00:38:31,559 On the charge of the murder of Kenneth Ockenden, 679 00:38:31,673 --> 00:38:33,448 how do you find the defendant? 680 00:38:33,632 --> 00:38:34,805 Guilty. 681 00:38:34,844 --> 00:38:37,804 On the charge of the murder of John Howlett, 682 00:38:38,202 --> 00:38:40,295 how do you find the defendant? 683 00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:41,331 Guilty. 684 00:38:41,356 --> 00:38:43,974 On the charge of the murder of Martyn Duffey, 685 00:38:43,999 --> 00:38:45,729 how do you find the defendant? 686 00:38:45,754 --> 00:38:47,184 Guilty. 687 00:38:47,209 --> 00:38:50,157 On the charge of the murder of Billy Sutherland, 688 00:38:50,182 --> 00:38:52,103 how do you find the defendant? 689 00:38:52,128 --> 00:38:53,489 Guilty. 690 00:38:53,514 --> 00:38:55,785 On the charge of the murder of Malcolm Barlow, 691 00:38:55,813 --> 00:38:57,355 how do you find the defendant? 692 00:38:57,380 --> 00:38:58,846 Guilty. 693 00:38:58,871 --> 00:39:02,447 On the charge of the attempted murder of Douglas Stewart, 694 00:39:02,472 --> 00:39:04,088 how do you find the defendant? 695 00:39:04,113 --> 00:39:05,423 Guilty. 696 00:39:05,757 --> 00:39:09,036 On the charge of the attempted murder of Paul Nobbs, 697 00:39:09,269 --> 00:39:11,389 how do you find the defendant? 698 00:39:11,550 --> 00:39:12,829 Guilty. 699 00:39:14,686 --> 00:39:16,886 Dennis Andrew Nilsen, 700 00:39:16,911 --> 00:39:19,897 your victims were innocent young men, 701 00:39:19,922 --> 00:39:23,136 guilty only of accepting your hospitality, 702 00:39:23,161 --> 00:39:28,036 whereupon you ended their lives cruelly and callously, 703 00:39:28,061 --> 00:39:32,296 for reasons that will remain known only to you. 704 00:39:33,620 --> 00:39:37,765 The sentence for murder is fixed in law. 705 00:39:37,790 --> 00:39:39,789 It is imprisonment for life, 706 00:39:39,814 --> 00:39:42,613 and that is the sentence which I pass on you 707 00:39:42,638 --> 00:39:46,131 on each count of this indictment. 708 00:39:47,931 --> 00:39:49,491 Take him down. 709 00:40:14,890 --> 00:40:16,771 [DOOR SLAMS] 710 00:40:16,796 --> 00:40:18,676 [INDISTINCT CONVERSATION] 711 00:40:20,301 --> 00:40:22,417 Mr Jay. Well done. 712 00:40:22,442 --> 00:40:24,441 It went down to the wire at the end, didn't it? 713 00:40:24,466 --> 00:40:26,280 You must be pleased it's over. 714 00:40:28,465 --> 00:40:31,546 If at any time in the future you remember any more names... 715 00:40:33,273 --> 00:40:34,713 please write to me. 716 00:40:35,493 --> 00:40:37,353 I promise you'll be the first to know. 717 00:40:38,194 --> 00:40:39,796 I think the jury got it right in the end. 718 00:40:39,821 --> 00:40:41,646 - Yeah. - I don't think I'm mad. 719 00:40:42,652 --> 00:40:45,373 If you hadn't caught me that day... 720 00:40:47,352 --> 00:40:50,239 it'd be 115, not 15. 721 00:40:51,516 --> 00:40:53,356 I could never have stopped. 722 00:40:56,466 --> 00:40:57,785 Okay. 723 00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:00,843 Good luck. 724 00:41:30,957 --> 00:41:32,758 What will you do with it all? 725 00:41:32,783 --> 00:41:36,859 Oh, I don't know. Chuck most of it, probably. 726 00:41:42,001 --> 00:41:44,543 Mr Jay... um... 727 00:41:44,693 --> 00:41:46,814 do you mind if I ask you a question? 728 00:41:47,737 --> 00:41:48,936 Go on. 729 00:41:49,224 --> 00:41:53,825 When you first met him, did you believe him straight away? 730 00:41:55,553 --> 00:41:57,029 Yes, I did. 731 00:41:58,199 --> 00:42:00,069 What went through your mind at that moment? 732 00:42:00,094 --> 00:42:02,253 Well, I thought, um... 733 00:42:07,501 --> 00:42:09,061 Honestly? 734 00:42:12,697 --> 00:42:15,458 The first thing I thought was, "I hope that I'm up to this." 735 00:42:15,483 --> 00:42:17,963 Don't put that in your book. 736 00:42:19,242 --> 00:42:20,922 You have my word. 737 00:42:24,057 --> 00:42:26,724 - And about my book... - No, look, it's fine. 738 00:42:29,747 --> 00:42:32,178 We both had our way of looking at this. 739 00:42:35,772 --> 00:42:38,933 Well, what will they do with this place? 740 00:42:39,449 --> 00:42:41,362 I don't know. 741 00:42:42,488 --> 00:42:45,140 Sell it or rent it out, I'd imagine. 742 00:42:46,085 --> 00:42:48,705 Who'd want to live here? I mean, it's... 743 00:42:49,421 --> 00:42:52,590 There's the smell for one thing. 744 00:42:54,602 --> 00:42:56,340 D'you know the worst thing? 745 00:42:58,839 --> 00:43:00,960 I don't smell it any more. 746 00:43:06,889 --> 00:43:08,690 I'll see you outside. 747 00:43:21,324 --> 00:43:23,826 So, how have you been? 748 00:43:23,883 --> 00:43:25,033 Ah, you know. 749 00:43:25,725 --> 00:43:28,797 Adjusting to being a permanent resident, and all. 750 00:43:29,521 --> 00:43:31,667 Apart from that, not too bad. 751 00:43:32,198 --> 00:43:34,158 I read your book. My book. 752 00:43:34,326 --> 00:43:35,651 What did you think? 753 00:43:35,682 --> 00:43:39,443 To be honest, Brian, I found it absolutely terrifying. 754 00:43:41,008 --> 00:43:42,633 But it's good, yeah. 755 00:43:42,658 --> 00:43:44,380 Much better than I expected. 756 00:43:44,601 --> 00:43:46,568 Of course, I have some thoughts. 757 00:43:48,568 --> 00:43:50,730 Please don't be discouraged by my observations. 758 00:43:50,755 --> 00:43:53,748 I've lost none of my respect or admiration for you, 759 00:43:53,773 --> 00:43:55,105 or your work. 760 00:44:00,908 --> 00:44:02,839 Oh, well, thank you. Um... 761 00:44:03,238 --> 00:44:05,261 I'm sure it'll be very helpful. 762 00:44:05,402 --> 00:44:08,042 My biggest concern is you didn't name any of the victims. 763 00:44:08,244 --> 00:44:10,836 No, I-I wanted to respect their privacy. 764 00:44:11,095 --> 00:44:13,741 Well, I think it's disrespectful not naming them. 765 00:44:15,003 --> 00:44:16,248 I robbed them of their life. 766 00:44:16,273 --> 00:44:18,137 Please don't rob them of their identities. 767 00:44:20,299 --> 00:44:22,150 And the title, 768 00:44:23,159 --> 00:44:25,542 Killing For Company, is a little... 769 00:44:26,132 --> 00:44:27,328 Ah. 770 00:44:27,825 --> 00:44:29,671 It should just be Nilsen. 771 00:44:30,272 --> 00:44:31,831 No. 772 00:44:31,942 --> 00:44:33,123 Why not? 773 00:44:33,917 --> 00:44:35,545 Book is about me, after all. 774 00:44:35,570 --> 00:44:37,612 I'm not going to call it Nilsen. 775 00:44:37,637 --> 00:44:40,310 This isn't your book. It's not about you. 776 00:44:40,813 --> 00:44:42,910 It's about how someone like you came to be. 777 00:44:42,935 --> 00:44:44,856 I told you when we first met 778 00:44:44,881 --> 00:44:48,542 that I wasn't going to use grisly or emotive adjectives, 779 00:44:48,567 --> 00:44:50,559 and I have stuck to my word. 780 00:44:51,532 --> 00:44:53,549 But make no mistake, 781 00:44:53,574 --> 00:44:55,602 this isn't a celebration. 782 00:44:56,555 --> 00:44:58,756 It's a warning. 783 00:45:03,014 --> 00:45:05,837 You know, there were only 12 victims, not 15. 784 00:45:08,775 --> 00:45:11,874 When I sat in the back of the police car the night of my arrest, 785 00:45:11,899 --> 00:45:13,786 they asked me how many there were, and I wasn't very sure, 786 00:45:13,810 --> 00:45:16,263 so I just gave them a figure, "15 or 16". 787 00:45:18,271 --> 00:45:21,256 And three... three of those victims were invented, 788 00:45:22,182 --> 00:45:25,518 just to complement the continuity of evidence for the police. 789 00:45:25,543 --> 00:45:27,263 Keep them happy. 790 00:45:28,707 --> 00:45:31,707 Everybody has had a chance to write their version of my story. 791 00:45:31,732 --> 00:45:33,238 When's it my turn? 792 00:45:41,682 --> 00:45:44,523 I'll send you a copy when it's published. 793 00:45:45,410 --> 00:45:47,208 Come and see me again. 794 00:46:01,533 --> 00:46:06,086 _ 795 00:46:06,370 --> 00:46:11,569 _ 796 00:46:17,227 --> 00:46:21,711 _ 797 00:46:21,922 --> 00:46:27,513 _ 798 00:46:29,853 --> 00:46:32,151 _ 799 00:46:32,218 --> 00:46:34,190 _ 800 00:46:34,384 --> 00:46:38,394 _ 801 00:46:38,596 --> 00:46:43,067 _ 802 00:46:45,293 --> 00:46:47,407 _ 803 00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:49,367 _ 804 00:46:49,465 --> 00:46:51,248 _ 805 00:47:01,736 --> 00:47:04,736 Synced & corrected by QueenMaddie www.addic7ed.com